Fire Emblem and Stealth Missions

[shadowofchaos]

I know that being creative and experimenting with Fire Emblem map objectives gives the designers an opportunity to test what we like as FE players.

But ever since FE9... and more recently, FE14... I am of the firm opinion that stealth missions via enemy attack ranges and FE do not mix.

You don't need to watch it... but playing through Chapter 24 on FE14 was... even more of a slog than the other maps which Rev gets criticized for.

I mean, I personally think the gimmicks for Rev might be annoying in some ways... but I also liked the extra maps and the "sandbox mode" maps that didn't care about turn count or moving each of the units in those big maps.

I liked the gimmicks for the most part.

But man, not this.

I mean, the mechanic is changed depending on the difficulty.

On Normal, being in enemy ranges after they move don't trigger the alarm.

On Hard and above, it does.

The latter is the most frustrating.

It's pretty much FE10 Hard Mode's counting squares when they turned off enemy ranges all over again.

...So, what do you, the FE players of Serenes Forest, think?

Should they work to *IMPROVE* this map objective?

Or should they throw it out altogether?

I'm for the "throw it out".

[BrightBow]

Oh my gosh, I can't believe they actually revisited this concept. This was such a pain in the rear. I did it once and never again. Even in Japanese Maniac I rather fight it out openly, thank you.

I suppose this kind of concept has at least some potential when it's about actually coming up with a strategy. But I find it hard to imagine that the actual execution of such a plan would ever turn out to be anything but tedious and frustrating.

Edited November 26, 2016 by BrightBow

[MCProductions]

You're supposed to play this chapter stealthily? I sure as hell didn't

I'm of the opinion Rev has a rather strong lategame in the gameplay department at least, with it's Endgame being my personal favorite in the series. It's a damn shame the early game sucks so bad I REFUSE to replay Rev, something no other FE has sunk too. As for this objective, ONLY if it's an optional objective, it's okay to be expanded upon/fixed. Give POR's and Rev's implementation credit, it isn't fucking mandatory like a certain chapter of a certain FE8 mod.

[Nym]

Everytime I do this mission, I failed to be stealth.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm all for throwing it out, but I'll give IS credit for at least making it optional.

That said, I never do stealth in FE9 - I don't get anything out of it to justify the headache. I did go out of my way to do it in Revelations, however; to its credit, once the boss is revealed, it doesn't matter if the guards spot you.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Paper Jam]

Stealth gameplay only works if you absolutely have to sneak past enemies rather than fight them; otherwise, you might as well just fight.

And FE is bad for that sort of gamplay anyway, since even Thieves and the like can't avoid being spotted and targeted by the enemy.

Now, if they COULD avoid being spotted... say, if they had a localized Fog-of-War-like effect on the space they occupy, preventing enemies from Attacking that space unless one of them is already adjacent... that might work.

I know that Intelligent Systems can make a strategy game in which Fog of War affects allies and enemies alike (since Advance Wars was like that), so I guess it depends on whether they want to make a Fire Emblem game in which the enemy, too, is hindered by Fog of War; having a character with a localized area of effect similar to Fog of War should be fairly simple with that in place.

[NinjaMonkey]

I don't bother with stealth, so I'm for the "throw it out" camp.

[Augestein]

The idea of stealth would be fine if they just didn't make it so silly. Like, if you had a chapter where you only had 2 units? Stealth could be pretty fun. You could quickly move your units and then react to the enemies movements and plan accordingly. The issue here is that unless you know exactly how the enemies move, it's just a pain to move that many units and remain hidden.

It'd also help if Fire Emblem had an actually "unit facing" mechanic in it to determine just how far it can see. In Revelations, it's tedious because you not only have to count its current facing, but where it'll be, and in the end of the day, you don't get much of a reward for doing it correctly.

I think it can stay, but probably only for things like Gaiden chapters with low units.

[Alex95]

In PoR, I pretty much just screw stealth as I know I'm going to have to get caught at one point, anyway. Plus it helps with experience-boosting.

[Barrel]

Throw it out, not worth the trouble implementing IMO when you can just play around with a dozen other mechanics instead

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Midnight Sun's stealth mission was a superb example how a stealth mission has to be, even if it was a bit too complicated with visiting all the villages in the right order.
A stealth mission is only a real stealth mission for me, if you must avoid the enemy. If you're in the attack range of an opponent, the consequence must be Game Over.

[The Geek]

Chapter 9 of Conquest did stealth well with the "Metal Gear Azura" side mission to reach that Dragon Vein.

[Azure Sen]

I am firmly of the opinion that stealth missions belong only in games that were designed to have some sort of actual stealth mechanic (since they tend to be really bad in games that aren't), even if said stealth mission is optional, so stealth missions shouldn't be in Fire Emblem as far as I'm concerned.

Edited November 26, 2016 by AzureSen

[Shadow Mir]

Midnight Sun's stealth mission was a superb example how a stealth mission has to be, even if it was a bit too complicated with visiting all the villages in the right order.

A stealth mission is only a real stealth mission for me, if you must avoid the enemy. If you're in the attack range of an opponent, the consequence must be Game Over.

I strongly disagree - I think that's the exact thing that a stealth mission SHOULDN'T be. I just don't think there'd be a way to make a stealth mission like that without making it extremely tedious and frustrating.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Fire Emblem is a series which requires strategical thought from someone. I don't think it's a mess to expect to see this mission objective in a FE game with this condition.

FE has the objective you have to beat all the enemies, so why not adding an objective you're forced to let everyone alive / avoid them?

Edited November 26, 2016 by Ayama Wirdo

[Captain Karnage]

I'm for the "throw it out".

same

this is a genre where stealth just doesn't work

I just gave up and used shura to give Kinshi knight me an extra step and did the mission like that

[Augestein]

I strongly disagree - I think that's the exact thing that a stealth mission SHOULDN'T be. I just don't think there'd be a way to make a stealth mission like that without making it extremely tedious and frustrating.

I definitely agree with this. I did not like that Chapter in Midnight Sun. It's an interesting idea, but it's literally one of those chapters that can make you not want to play a game again.

I think what's wrong with stealth missions in Fire Emblem is just that they are poorly done. They could be done well if there were more rules and less laziness about them. I was thinking about this more after I posted and decided they might be better with more rules.

Thing is, I like the idea of stealth, as you could do some interesting things with it. Imagine a chapter where your units need to sneak into a base, capture a unit, and then escape the map with the captured unit. Such a chapter couldn't exist if you didn't try to have stealth elements, as a knockdown drag out fight isn't the same thing plot wise that's happening.

The first thing to take note of, is that in most stealth games, the game gives you some layout of the map and every tool you need from the get go to solve a mission generally speaking. In the case of Fire Emblem, the rules need to be clearly noted for how the enemies move if the game expects me to play through the game on the account that there literally is no other skill for the player to have outside of counting the enemy ranges-- And even then, I think is ridiculous because it doesn't really make much sense that a soldier with a javelin can see farther than a soldier without one. So the enemies need to absolutely move their maximum ranges. I recall the enemies in the Rev chapter not doing so all the time which just makes the whole ordeal tiresome. It forces you to have to watch the enemy units constantly and drags the chapter on needlessly.

But that doesn't mean I'm against it. I think it just needs better rules.

1) If you attack an enemy and kill it in 1 round of combat, the enemy cannot sound the alarm. This encourages enemies to not bait the player into attacking them by making them not exactly easy to take down but not impossible.

2) Killed enemies don't disappear, but rather remain on the floor for other enemies to find. Therefore, any killed enemy must be picked up to be disposed of somewhere else.

3) Carrying killed enemies causes the same sort of penalties that rescue used to cause from the GBA and Tellius Fire Emblem.

4) In stealth missions, if it's FoW, any character with lethality can kill someone if the enemy bumps into your unit in the darkness. Thus rewarding people for having assassin type characters for these types of missions, and even if they were underleveled, they can still do their job perfectly fine.

5) Paired Up enemies will automatically sound the alarm because both cannot be killed at the same time.

6) The range in question is only their current range, not the additional range of where they will be at the end of their turn. If you must do that, allow the player to toggle this sort of how you can toggle to see staff range. That way they can see say... Red as current and Blue as after movement.

I wouldn't mind 1 - 2 stealth chapters. They just need to be short and sweet rather than... What they've always been. Long and tedious. They also need clear rules.

[Shadow Mir]

Fire Emblem is a series which requires strategical thought from someone. I don't think it's a mess to expect to see this mission objective in a FE game with this condition.

FE has the objective you have to beat all the enemies, so why not adding an objective you're forced to let everyone alive / avoid them?

Maybe because that kind of chapter can really dock points off of replayability? I know I would refuse to replay a game with a chapter like that; hell, I might give that game a pass altogether.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

The replayability is the only weakness of a stealth mission, because after playing the first time you know exactly what to do in the second run since you're not affected by the RNG. Only a different A.I. of the opponent could change the gameplay of the stealth mission in future runs.

But I still defend my point to see at least one stealth mission in future FE games / hacks. It forces me to think contrary than usual.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Ayama Wirdo

[NekoKnight]

I think there is potential for making stealth missions, they just need:

1. Make the "discovered" conditions readily apparent from the start of the mission

2. There should be strong incentive to be stealthy for part of the mission and not make a straight route the more expedient/practical option.

For a good "stealth" mission, look at the True Colors of Starcraft: Broodwar. In that mission, you were given a time limit to launch a sneak attack on the enemy base, and it was up to you to cripple them with efficient attacks before the enemy could mobilize. True, it's not stealth in the sense of avoiding enemies but the idea of striking the enemy first and removing key defenses before the main combat could be utilized in Fire Emblem.

Imagine you had a small deployment number (let's say 6 units) that you need to sneak around a castle to handle a few objectives. Those objectives could include opening gates from within to have access to lesser defended areas, kill key targets, getting chests or rescuing a captured ally. After you blow your cover, you would be granted access to a more reasonable deployment number for the rest of the chapter. The idea of the stealth portion is that you would need to weaken the enemy before a straight assault would be possible.

[Jotari]

You're supposed to play this chapter stealthily? I sure as hell didn't

I'm of the opinion Rev has a rather strong lategame in the gameplay department at least, with it's Endgame being my personal favorite in the series. It's a damn shame the early game sucks so bad I REFUSE to replay Rev, something no other FE has sunk too. As for this objective, ONLY if it's an optional objective, it's okay to be expanded upon/fixed. Give POR's and Rev's implementation credit, it isn't fucking mandatory like a certain chapter of a certain FE8 mod.

Haha. That was my exact reaction too. I just intentionally triggered the alarm and then used the blue red doors as a choke point. Enemies didn't seem all that tougher than any other map. You've also summed up my general opinion towards the subject. It's fine for an experiment so long as you don't make it mandatory. Of course there must also still be some incentive to do it in game. If anything it can serve to give a different feel to the plot of single chapter.

I definitely agree with this. I did not like that Chapter in Midnight Sun. It's an interesting idea, but it's literally one of those chapters that can make you not want to play a game again.

I think what's wrong with stealth missions in Fire Emblem is just that they are poorly done. They could be done well if there were more rules and less laziness about them. I was thinking about this more after I posted and decided they might be better with more rules.

Thing is, I like the idea of stealth, as you could do some interesting things with it. Imagine a chapter where your units need to sneak into a base, capture a unit, and then escape the map with the captured unit. Such a chapter couldn't exist if you didn't try to have stealth elements, as a knockdown drag out fight isn't the same thing plot wise that's happening.

The first thing to take note of, is that in most stealth games, the game gives you some layout of the map and every tool you need from the get go to solve a mission generally speaking. In the case of Fire Emblem, the rules need to be clearly noted for how the enemies move if the game expects me to play through the game on the account that there literally is no other skill for the player to have outside of counting the enemy ranges-- And even then, I think is ridiculous because it doesn't really make much sense that a soldier with a javelin can see farther than a soldier without one. So the enemies need to absolutely move their maximum ranges. I recall the enemies in the Rev chapter not doing so all the time which just makes the whole ordeal tiresome. It forces you to have to watch the enemy units constantly and drags the chapter on needlessly.

But that doesn't mean I'm against it. I think it just needs better rules.

1) If you attack an enemy and kill it in 1 round of combat, the enemy cannot sound the alarm. This encourages enemies to not bait the player into attacking them by making them not exactly easy to take down but not impossible.

2) Killed enemies don't disappear, but rather remain on the floor for other enemies to find. Therefore, any killed enemy must be picked up to be disposed of somewhere else.

3) Carrying killed enemies causes the same sort of penalties that rescue used to cause from the GBA and Tellius Fire Emblem.

4) In stealth missions, if it's FoW, any character with lethality can kill someone if the enemy bumps into your unit in the darkness. Thus rewarding people for having assassin type characters for these types of missions, and even if they were underleveled, they can still do their job perfectly fine.

5) Paired Up enemies will automatically sound the alarm because both cannot be killed at the same time.

6) The range in question is only their current range, not the additional range of where they will be at the end of their turn. If you must do that, allow the player to toggle this sort of how you can toggle to see staff range. That way they can see say... Red as current and Blue as after movement.

I wouldn't mind 1 - 2 stealth chapters. They just need to be short and sweet rather than... What they've always been. Long and tedious. They also need clear rules.

You've essentially described Thracia's capture mechanic there...which has me thinking it could be pretty cool if you could capture certain enemies and use them to open doors or secret passages Splinter Cell style.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Jotari

[eclipse]

I think stealth missions can be potentially fun. However, the conditions in which the game transitions from stealth to brawl needs to be clear. I would like a stealth mission with multiple simultaneous objectives (think a cross of the prison mission in FE9 and the conditions to get to Zephiel in FE6). Lastly, the stealth part shouldn't be a twenty-something turn deal, because that's not fun at all. I like the idea of ORKOs not breaking stealth, as long as the body is moved.

[shadowofchaos]

But that doesn't mean I'm against it. I think it just needs better rules.

1) If you attack an enemy and kill it in 1 round of combat, the enemy cannot sound the alarm. This encourages enemies to not bait the player into attacking them by making them not exactly easy to take down but not impossible.

2) Killed enemies don't disappear, but rather remain on the floor for other enemies to find. Therefore, any killed enemy must be picked up to be disposed of somewhere else.

3) Carrying killed enemies causes the same sort of penalties that rescue used to cause from the GBA and Tellius Fire Emblem.

4) In stealth missions, if it's FoW, any character with lethality can kill someone if the enemy bumps into your unit in the darkness. Thus rewarding people for having assassin type characters for these types of missions, and even if they were underleveled, they can still do their job perfectly fine.

5) Paired Up enemies will automatically sound the alarm because both cannot be killed at the same time.

6) The range in question is only their current range, not the additional range of where they will be at the end of their turn. If you must do that, allow the player to toggle this sort of how you can toggle to see staff range. That way they can see say... Red as current and Blue as after movement.

I wouldn't mind 1 - 2 stealth chapters. They just need to be short and sweet rather than... What they've always been. Long and tedious. They also need clear rules.

I like these design ideas, actually. It sounds a lot more fun than what we currently have.

[Rapier]

I am firmly of the opinion that stealth missions belong only in games that were designed to have some sort of actual stealth mechanic (since they tend to be really bad in games that aren't), even if said stealth mission is optional, so stealth missions shouldn't be in Fire Emblem as far as I'm concerned.

I agree.

So either add a stealth mechanic for the next FE title that will use stealth missions or don't bother with stealth missions at all. I think that a system like the XCOM 2 one would be cool, but FE isn't made with stealth on mind, so it'd just be a waste of resources and time.

[PKL]

Mikotos chapter imo is one of the worst designed maps in the entire series if not the worst. Its just bad.