Should Battle Saves Be Included In Classic?

[Jotari]

So something that kind of came up on the Direction of the Series Thread that I thought was interesting enough to warrant its own discussion. Since Fire Emblem 12 we've had Classic and Casual. Classic is supposedly the old school version of Fire Emblem that maintains permadeath. However there's also another feature that Casual gets and Classic doesn't that actually has been a feature in the series for a long time. As far back as Fire Emblem 4 (to my knowledge). Appearing infrequently but consistently since then. So what's you're opinion on the matter? Should Battle Saves be available to Classic players and if so, what form should they take?

Edited December 15, 2016 by Jotari

[Magical Glace]

I like the "Once every 5 turns" option, limits scumming (which was highly exploitable in FE10's lower difficulties) while not forcing total do-overs.

I think it's a good compromise.

[Ryo]

I personally prefer having map saves than not, even if it's limited (just came back from three deaths by enemy criticals in a row). I also don't mind the option to select from the start.

[The DanMan]

Heck yes. The real reason I play Casual (or "Casual Challenge") is battle saves.

Honestly, I'd be all for simply removing the arbitrary Classic and Casual modifiers entirely and letting you select the pertaining options separately.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Battles saves are the best way for a newcomer how to learn playing in classic mode, so yes.

[Etrurian emperor]

I think shadow dragon has a pretty good example for the rest of the series to follow. You sure don't hear that a lot.

Shadow dragon had a single save point on the map which is handy and forgiving but gives you only one chance to save to avoid save scumming. It also gives the player a responsibility to use it responsibly because if you save right before an enemy archer shoots down a flyer you just wasted the save point.

[The DanMan]

I think shadow dragon has a pretty good example for the rest of the series to follow. You sure don't hear that a lot.

Shadow dragon had a single save point on the map which is handy and forgiving but gives you only one chance to save to avoid save scumming. It also gives the player a responsibility to use it responsibly because if you save right before an enemy archer shoots down a flyer you just wasted the save point.

Actually, two. One near the starting point and another right after the "hump" of the level.

I like the "Once every 5 turns" option, limits scumming (which was highly exploitable in FE10's lower difficulties) while not forcing total do-overs.

I think it's a good compromise.

I'd be for that as well, though I can also confirm (from my own testing) that reloading a battle save does not change the results (if you the exact same actions happen, the exact same outcome will as well), making scumming basically dead.

[Azure Sen]

I'm in favor of the every five turns only limit too. I feel it's a nice compromise; Battle Saves are there, but they aren't dreadfully limited like SD's nor are they super exploitable like Genealogy's or RD's.

[Jotari]

Actually, two. One near the starting point and another right after the "hump" of the level.

I'd be for that as well, though I can also confirm (from my own testing) that reloading a battle save does not change the results (if you the exact same actions happen, the exact same outcome will as well), making scumming basically dead.

That depends. If you can perform enough other actions you can burn through the rng to get the desired result (in some cases at least).

[Locke087]

The one save every five turns is pretty good, but I would be more for a set amount of save you can use though, like maybe two-three saves per map (preferably two). I am always for more options so the option to turn off I'll saves if you would like should maybe be there, but I think it would be good to have the feature in a limited capacity in classic.

[CappnRob]

Honestly I liked FE4's saves: you could save at the start of every turn, but only if you hadn't moved anyone yet. Granted, FE4 with its wildly OP stat variables and single digit RN kind of made this a necessity, but I still liked it.

Also yes pls bring back fuckhuge FE4 maps :V

[The DanMan]

That depends. If you can perform enough other actions you can burn through the rng to get the desired result (in some cases at least).

No idea on RNG burning, but I can also confirm performing other actions (for instance: having a unit attack from a different tile) yields different RNs and a theoretically different result. It's certainly less useful than the "old" way.

Either way, it's not mindlessly reloading until the RNG falls into your favor.

[ping]

Every 5 turns sounds neat, too, but I really liked the implementation in the DS remakes. Two or three saves during a battle can really make it a lot less frustrating without making endless RN rerolling too much of a thing.

Placing the savespots on the map instead of introducing a timer also means that faster play doesn't get 'punished' in the sense of getting fewer saves per map and makes it possible for the developers to place them so that the player can save before tackling the next difficult part of the fight (or after a difficult part at the beginning of the map).

[Darros]

I think FE11 and FE12 did it best with their map saves. I'd like to see something like that again. FE4 had it nice too where you could save any turn but only at the beginning of the turn, but that was a function of the giant maps I think and wouldn't be pulled off as cleanly in a regular game.

[sirmola]

I like the way shadow dragon did it. One of the worst bits of the fire emblem formula is the way that you spend 25 minutes on a map, and then someone gets killed by the boss, forcing you to replay the entire map just to have a shot at the boss (ambush spawns also tend to do this). On the other hand, unlimited saves allow for endless rng manipulation, which is also no good.

THe problem with "once every 5 turns" is that this encourges turteling for a few turns until the "save" option comes up when ever you are right before a hard part (like a boss).

[eclipse]

If you notice your vote is missing, it's because this topic was accidentally posted twice. I managed to move the posts from the smaller topic, but not the poll votes.

I think Shadow Dragon's "two save bubbles" was the best compromise. It limits how much abuse can be done (hi Radiant Dawn), but doesn't force the player to do some stupidly long map again because the RNG felt like being a jerk.

EDIT: It can also count as an additional map objective, which will affect strategy. The only thing I'd object to is if the save points were in really out-of-the-way places.

Edited December 14, 2016 by eggclipse

[Jotari]

THe problem with "once every 5 turns" is that this encourges turteling for a few turns until the "save" option comes up when ever you are right before a hard part (like a boss).

I don't think that's really much of an issue. If those turns are burned then it detracts from your rank so if you care about that you won't do it. However for the players that don't care about it they're fully free to waste three or four turns waiting for the save point. Who is it really harming if they do?

Edited December 14, 2016 by Jotari

[CappnRob]

The DS games pre-set save points are also a good feature, yes.

[Captain Karnage]

Depends, if Genealogy had it I'd like it a lot more than I do.

[NinjaMonkey]

It should done like how RD did it.

Also, I don't see why people care about others save scumming. It's not as though it affects anyone but the person doing it (besides who the hell save scumms on RD's Easy Mode, anyway?).

[eclipse]

Depends, if Genealogy had it I'd like it a lot more than I do.

FE4 is a very special case. I'd do save prompts after every seize (with an option to turn it into an automatic save), as well as a save point or two between the various castles.

[The Geek]

FE4 is a very special case. I'd do save prompts after every seize (with an option to turn it into an automatic save), as well as a save point or two between the various castles.

I'd agree with this.

In my first playthrough of FE4 I actually ended up screwing myself over with the save each turn.

[Florete]

My preferred way would be to allow battle saves at the start of every turn (or every other turn), before any allied units have been moved, but stuff like every 5 turns or the DS games limited map saves are also cool.

[CatManThree]

FE 11 and 12 did map saves was really good, but the way FE 4's worked could fit casual mode pretty well if you ask me.

[Quintessence]

What if they implement some sort of checkpoints, that if you cross certain limits in the map you gain a battle save count usable at any time in the chapter. Like, small maps can have 1 checkpoint, medium sized can have 2 and large ones can have up to 3 or something. It sounds the same way as FE11 but it doesn't consume a unit action and can use it whenever you want as FE10 battle saves.