"Ask Fire Emblem Heroes Questions and Get Them Answered Here" Thread

[Othin]

6 hours ago, Xenomata said:

This is not a question I thought I would be asking, but... what do you guys do when you need Divine Dews for a refine, but have no regular weapons you want to refine to convert Refining stones into dews?

On the one hand I don't want to waste refining stones, but on the other... the prf weapon refines lately have been good, especially for me since a lot of them were given to units I have investment in.

I add random stat bonuses to whatever decent refineable weapons my 5*+10 units have. I don't think of the stones as a very valuable resource at this point.

[XRay]

10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

In Resonant Battles, your support units usually can't keep up with you attackers due to the need to push forward at a fast pace. Wings of Mercy helps your dancer in the middle of the phase, but doesn't help you end your phase near your attackers, making it difficult to use Tactic skills. Opening skills have the issue of only targeting one ally unless you've specifically engineered your team to have multiple units tie their stats.

Openings can only target one, but you can use elemental Dances on the Sacred Seal slot to give the other buff, and there are also Arena Assault items you can use to get buffs and charge Specials when you need to nuke a Guard.

10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Allegiance battles have a better argument for Tactic skills, but you run into the issue that it's difficult to fit in support units at all due to the requirement to kill opponents with a specific-colored unit. You only have space on your team for two units of each color, and using one of those slots for a non-dancer support unit carries the risk that the other unit of that color will need to run all the way across the map to kill their next target. Even a dancer can be a problem because it uses up the turn of their paired unit, which still leaves you with one color that only has one functional unit on that turn.

While I do equip some buffs in that mode, it is just for scoring and I do not bother to consciously use them during the map. I have not had any trouble tanking and killing things, especially with color advantage, so I never felt the need to position myself for buffs.

11 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Menace essentially functions as role compression in that it compresses a team slot into a skill slot because situations exist where a team slot is more valuable than a skill slot or two or three.

While Menace can compress roles, there are not many modes where you cannot or do not want to run support units. For enemy phase teams, especially Save tank teams, I cannot think of a mode where you do not want to bring a support unit. For player phase teams, the only modes where you cannot or might not want to bring Dancers/Singers are Limited Hero Battles and maybe Summoner Duels. The only other situation I can think of is autobattling, where you do not need support units because the AI cannot take advantage of them well anyways.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Openings can only target one, but you can use elemental Dances on the Sacred Seal slot to give the other buff, and there are also Arena Assault items you can use to get buffs and charge Specials when you need to nuke a Guard.

Elemental dances delay your buff to after your first action, and you're still only buffing one unit. In most Resonant Battles, you're attacking with two units, not one, and it's advantageous to be able to have both units buffed. Furthermore, due to the fact that units heal after each kill, it can be difficult to set up Wings of Mercy to get your dancers up to your attackers after the second turn.

Furthermore, this is a mode where debuffs from Menace can make a difference due to the enormous stats the enemies have in higher tiers. Chill skills are ineffective here because of the sheer number of enemies, and Sabotage skills are similarly ineffective due to the fact that the map is large, and enemies tend to remain spread out.

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

While Menace can compress roles, there are not many modes where you cannot or do not want to run support units. For enemy phase teams, especially Save tank teams, I cannot think of a mode where you do not want to bring a support unit.

Save teams in Aether Raids are generally better running combat buffs instead of field buffs on their support units due to their ability to be stacked and to avoid being Panicked. It's typically optimal to still have one offensive unit that can be used to snipe buildings and threatening units, and Menace skills allow you to focus your support units on keeping the Save ball alive while the attacker can operate independently and without the need for their own support complement.

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

For player phase teams, the only modes where you cannot or might not want to bring Dancers/Singers are Limited Hero Battles and maybe Summoner Duels. The only other situation I can think of is autobattling, where you do not need support units because the AI cannot take advantage of them well anyways.

Dancers are also not great for scoring in the regular Arena unless you have access to Duel skills or Duo Peony, and as mentioned previously, they are a potential liability in Allegiance Battles where the randomness of spawns and the scoring mechanic can potentially put you out of position if you aren't running two combat units of each color.

Grand Conquest is also a game mode that is not conducive to the use of support units due to the opponent's ability to teleport and attack in the same action at the highest difficulty, which makes it optimal to fully secure a base in a single turn. Such a maneuver typically requires a large number of actions, which decreases the likelihood of being able to fit in multiple support units despite the number of units you are capable of fielding at once. Furthermore, the number of units you are capable of fielding makes it nearly impossible to use Tactic skills to buff large number of units at the same time.

 

And again, there aren't many good alternatives to Menace in that skill slot to begin with, especially on cavalry.

And as far as actually comparing against support units, Menace is also extremely efficient at condensing the support role. To get a similar effect from a support unit, you need either two skill slots with a Rally action (Rally+ and Ruse) or three skill slots with a mobility action (two Tactic skills and Snag). And, as mentioned previously with Resonant Battles, Menace does not require the support unit to be able to keep up with the attacker.

Additionally, the available inheritable debuff skills that don't require the use of an action have unreliable targeting compared to Menace. Chill only targets one unit unless there is a stat tie for highest, making it less reliable the more enemy units there are. Sabotage requires both a stat check and can only target units that remain clumped up, which makes it less reliable the fewer enemies there are, less reliable on maps where enemies don't clump up, and less reliable in game modes with inflated enemy stats. Because of this, it's impossible to reliably get a similar effect as Menace from a support unit without the use of an action (outside of units with exclusive skills).

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Elemental dances delay your buff to after your first action, and you're still only buffing one unit. In most Resonant Battles, you're attacking with two units, not one, and it's advantageous to be able to have both units buffed. Furthermore, due to the fact that units heal after each kill, it can be difficult to set up Wings of Mercy to get your dancers up to your attackers after the second turn.

Furthermore, this is a mode where debuffs from Menace can make a difference due to the enormous stats the enemies have in higher tiers. Chill skills are ineffective here because of the sheer number of enemies, and Sabotage skills are similarly ineffective due to the fact that the map is large, and enemies tend to remain spread out.

You bring two nukes with two Dancers/ Singers, one for each side of the map, so you can run Openings and Dances on both Dancers/Singers. Not buffed at start of round can be remedied by killing the Thief carrying the buff item.

For Wings of Mercy, double Fury is usually enough to offset the healing on one nuke, and Fury with Life and Death without Desperation on the other nuke can eat counter attacks to offset the healing.

Depending on the nuke you use and the foe they face, they do not need buffs to kill the Guards.

I find Menace to be unreliable due to Thieves getting in the way. Chills will target the foe with the highest stat, which should be Guardian Heroes in most cases.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Save teams in Aether Raids are generally better running combat buffs instead of field buffs on their support units due to their ability to be stacked and to avoid being Panicked. It's typically optimal to still have one offensive unit that can be used to snipe buildings and threatening units, and Menace skills allow you to focus your support units on keeping the Save ball alive while the attacker can operate independently and without the need for their own support complement.

Flayn and Elimine are still support units, so you still want run them anywhere where you bring Save tanks.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Dancers are also not great for scoring in the regular Arena unless you have access to Duel skills or Duo Peony, and as mentioned previously, they are a potential liability in Allegiance Battles where the randomness of spawns and the scoring mechanic can potentially put you out of position if you aren't running two combat units of each color.

You can put Dancers/Singers behind Pair Up Legendary Heroes.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Grand Conquest is also a game mode that is not conducive to the use of support units due to the opponent's ability to teleport and attack in the same action at the highest difficulty, which makes it optimal to fully secure a base in a single turn. Such a maneuver typically requires a large number of actions, which decreases the likelihood of being able to fit in multiple support units despite the number of units you are capable of fielding at once. Furthermore, the number of units you are capable of fielding makes it nearly impossible to use Tactic skills to buff large number of units at the same time.

You can auto battle Grand Conquest depending on difficulty, and you do not need to play on the highest difficulty to get everything either. I think most players stick with Lunatic and the lower tier Infernal and play them manually if they want to reach tier 25. I think you can even autobattle Lunatic if you got a good friend list.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Additionally, the available inheritable debuff skills that don't require the use of an action have unreliable targeting compared to Menace. Chill only targets one unit unless there is a stat tie for highest, making it less reliable the more enemy units there are. Sabotage requires both a stat check and can only target units that remain clumped up, which makes it less reliable the fewer enemies there are, less reliable on maps where enemies don't clump up, and less reliable in game modes with inflated enemy stats. Because of this, it's impossible to reliably get a similar effect as Menace from a support unit without the use of an action (outside of units with exclusive skills).

For most maps, Chills are more than enough to target the foe that will give you the most trouble for a certain stat. While Sabotage only works against clumps, most enemies will clump up when they move towards your team.

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, XRay said:

You bring two nukes with two Dancers/ Singers, one for each side of the map, so you can run Openings and Dances on both Dancers/Singers. Not buffed at start of round can be remedied by killing the Thief carrying the buff item.

You lose 10 points by bringing more than one dancer.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

For Wings of Mercy, double Fury is usually enough to offset the healing on one nuke, and Fury with Life and Death without Desperation on the other nuke can eat counter attacks to offset the healing.

In tier 21, double Fury and Fury + Life and Death are sometimes not enough to double opponents, and Life and Death often gets you killed. Especially when they start throwing recent units into the mix.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

I find Menace to be unreliable due to Thieves getting in the way. Chills will target the foe with the highest stat, which should be Guardian Heroes in most cases.

Sure. A single unit. Out of six. And Chill Spd still often hits thieves (like it does this week), as most units with Spd boosts have an in-combat Spd boost instead of Life and Death.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

Flayn and Elimine are still support units, so you still want run them anywhere where you bring Save tanks.

Yes. They typically run combat buffs, which don't help your sniper when the sniper needs to break formation to snipe something. Are you even reading?

And neither of them can run Rally skills to apply field buffs.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

You can put Dancers/Singers behind Pair Up Legendary Heroes.

I guess not because I literally already addressed this point earlier:

On 2/9/2022 at 2:48 PM, Ice Dragon said:

You only have space on your team for two units of each color, and using one of those slots for a non-dancer support unit carries the risk that the other unit of that color will need to run all the way across the map to kill their next target. Even a dancer can be a problem because it uses up the turn of their paired unit, which still leaves you with one color that only has one functional unit on that turn.

Running a dancer leaves you with two colors that are missing a second combat unit for each turn that you use the dancer. The dancer takes up the space of the a unit of the dancer's color that could have been a combat unit, and using Dance costs the turn of the unit the dancer is paired with, depriving you of one combat unit of the paired unit's color on that turn.

 

4 hours ago, XRay said:

For most maps, Chills are more than enough to target the foe that will give you the most trouble for a certain stat. While Sabotage only works against clumps, most enemies will clump up when they move towards your team.

When you're high enough that most teams run full Rally skills, they do not clump up when moving towards you. Most teams will Rally one unit and have that one unit run straight at you, while the remaining units sit in the back. Occasionally, two units will run at you, but they often take different routes.

Sabotage is only reliable in the Arena if your score is low enough that most opposing teams run movement Assist skills instead of Rally.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

In tier 21, double Fury and Fury + Life and Death are sometimes not enough to double opponents, and Life and Death often gets you killed. Especially when they start throwing recent units into the mix.

I generally do not have issues with doubling, and between all the Duo and Harmonized skills and items, I can get enough buffs to kill most Guards, and the ones I cannot kill I can bypass. I have more issues with bulk since I cannot get enough recoil damage to offset the healing from multiple Guards, as not all of them can counterattack due to range.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Sure. A single unit. Out of six. And Chill Spd still often hits thieves (like it does this week), as most units with Spd boosts have an in-combat Spd boost instead of Life and Death.

I do not see a lot of Guards that boosts Spd on enemy phase, so if Chills are hitting thieves, then nukes should probably double most Guards.

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Save teams in Aether Raids are generally better running combat buffs instead of field buffs on their support units due to their ability to be stacked and to avoid being Panicked. It's typically optimal to still have one offensive unit that can be used to snipe buildings and threatening units, and Menace skills allow you to focus your support units on keeping the Save ball alive while the attacker can operate independently and without the need for their own support complement.

I guess I do not see much point in running a Save tank team if it is not full of Flayns/Elmines, since if I am bothering to bring a Save tank team, it means the two or three stacks of damage reduction on a super tank team is not enough handle the shit-hits-the-fan level of damage output from defense, and I need four or more stacks of damage reduction to survive.

If I need some player phasing to be done, then that means defense is running at least one bulky unit, so that generally means I can just run my normal super tank team and I do not have to worry about the super tank being overwhelmed by nukes on defense. The super tank just needs Flayn/Elmine/Lucina: Brave Princess behind them to hold the line, since the rest of the Peonys/Plumerias do not need to be near the super tank to provide Mythic stat boost, and the Mythic Dancers/Singers can follow Ullr/Astra nuke around doing player phase things.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Running a dancer leaves you with two colors that are missing a second combat unit for each turn that you use the dancer. The dancer takes up the space of the a unit of the dancer's color that could have been a combat unit, and using Dance costs the turn of the unit the dancer is paired with, depriving you of one combat unit of the paired unit's color on that turn.

I run multiple Pair Up Legendary Heroes, so my pure combat Pair Ups can switch between whatever color is necessary when the Dance/Sing Pair Ups move them. The Dance/Sing Pair Ups can also just move into enemy range or stay in there themselves and switch from the Dancer/Singer to the combat unit if it is the right match up too. Most of my combat units are dual phase units so it does not matter what phase I use them in.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

When you're high enough that most teams run full Rally skills, they do not clump up when moving towards you. Most teams will Rally one unit and have that one unit run straight at you, while the remaining units sit in the back. Occasionally, two units will run at you, but they often take different routes.

Sabotage is only reliable in the Arena if your score is low enough that most opposing teams run movement Assist skills instead of Rally.

Then Chills sound like a better debuff in that scenario. If a foe is not getting Chilled, then it probably also means you do not need the debuff to win an engagement with that foe in the first place.

[Ice Dragon]

39 minutes ago, XRay said:

I do not see a lot of Guards that boosts Spd on enemy phase, so if Chills are hitting thieves, then nukes should probably double most Guards.

Atk/Spd Solo and Atk/Spd Push are quite common.

 

40 minutes ago, XRay said:

I guess I do not see much point in running a Save tank team if it is not full of Flayns/Elmines, since if I am bothering to bring a Save tank team, it means the two or three stacks of damage reduction on a super tank team is not enough handle the shit-hits-the-fan level of damage output from defense, and I need four or more stacks of damage reduction to survive.

If I need some player phasing to be done, then that means defense is running at least one bulky unit, so that generally means I can just run my normal super tank team and I do not have to worry about the super tank being overwhelmed by nukes on defense. The super tank just needs Flayn/Elmine/Lucina: Brave Princess behind them to hold the line, since the rest of the Peonys/Plumerias do not need to be near the super tank to provide Mythic stat boost, and the Mythic Dancers/Singers can follow Ullr/Astra nuke around doing player phase things.

Again, I run a Save team with only a single stack of damage reduction and have zero problems. You know, like a normal person.

With a large amount of damage reduction, you're still going to run into units that nullify damage reduction and units that have Sweep effects. With fewer stacks of damage reduction, which is what normal people do, there will be more wall breakers that you may need to break with a sniper.

You can go on and on about how it's optimal to play with 4 copies of Flayn/Elimine, but if people don't actually play that way, any recommendations you make off of that assumption are utterly useless.

 

46 minutes ago, XRay said:

I run multiple Pair Up Legendary Heroes, so my pure combat Pair Ups can switch between whatever color is necessary when the Dance/Sing Pair Ups move them. The Dance/Sing Pair Ups can also just move into enemy range or stay in there themselves and switch from the Dancer/Singer to the combat unit if it is the right match up too. Most of my combat units are dual phase units so it does not matter what phase I use them in.

And I run a full team of Pair Up Legendary Heroes.

Being able to switch color means nothing if there are two enemy units of the same color and you only have one unit of the correct color to kill them. Units that function on enemy phase can also become a liability when there are enemies of different colors with overlapping threat ranges where you don't want to kill both of them. Having two units of each color on your team that are functional on each turn is clearly the optimal setup and is the reason why I ditched Legendary Azura early after the game mode was released. The ability to dance a unit into position is inferior to just having a second unit already there.

And really, what C skill exactly is better than Menace in Allegiance Battles anyways? Again, your fancy Fatal Smoke and Feud skills are largely pointless there.

 

55 minutes ago, XRay said:

Then Chills sound like a better debuff in that scenario. If a foe is not getting Chilled, then it probably also means you do not need the debuff to win an engagement with that foe in the first place.

Right. Because a unit that is 1 point short of being hit with Chill probably didn't need the debuff in the first place. Mhm. Sure.

I would argue that the unit with the second highest Atk and the unit with the second highest Spd are more threatening simply because they don't get hit by Chill.

[XRay]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Atk/Spd Solo and Atk/Spd Push are quite common.

In the rare case I cannot kill them with just bonus buffs alone, there is also Special Blade, Lightning Charm, Duo/Harmonized skills, or some combination of the previous options as additional ways to buff my nukes to secure the kill. And as a last resort, there is always just simply Dancing/Singing the nuke again and attack twice that way. Unless the Guard is a Def/Res tank that just completely walls off physical/magical nukes or something, Guards are not going to survive two rounds of combat against nukes. And if my nukes cannot make a dent in them, I can always just bypass them. I do not need to kill every Guard to win the match.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Again, I run a Save team with only a single stack of damage reduction and have zero problems. You know, like a normal person.

With a large amount of damage reduction, you're still going to run into units that nullify damage reduction and units that have Sweep effects. With fewer stacks of damage reduction, which is what normal people do, there will be more wall breakers that you may need to break with a sniper.

You can go on and on about how it's optimal to play with 4 copies of Flayn/Elimine, but if people don't actually play that way, any recommendations you make off of that assumption are utterly useless.

If the opponent is running enough wall breakers to crush a slow Save tank team, then they are not running enough normal nukes with competitive Spd that will pose a threat to kill high Spd super tanks. And if they are running enough nukes that bypass damage reduction to kill super tanks and most Save tanks, then that means they are running lots of Infantry Pulsers instead of cavalry nukes, so they are going to be hard countered by Galeforcers who can set up with impunity just outside of enemy range, and Fjorm: Ice Ascendent will still hand them their ass anyways with Ice Mirror-Hardy Fighter. Defense cannot have it all and be effective at the same time.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

And I run a full team of Pair Up Legendary Heroes.

Being able to switch color means nothing if there are two enemy units of the same color and you only have one unit of the correct color to kill them. Units that function on enemy phase can also become a liability when there are enemies of different colors with overlapping threat ranges where you don't want to kill both of them. Having two units of each color on your team that are functional on each turn is clearly the optimal setup and is the reason why I ditched Legendary Azura early after the game mode was released. The ability to dance a unit into position is inferior to just having a second unit already there.

And really, what C skill exactly is better than Menace in Allegiance Battles anyways? Again, your fancy Fatal Smoke and Feud skills are largely pointless there.

Overlapping range is only an issue if the overlap is from enemies with the same Weapon range. A lot of times, the overlap is due range and melee enemies, and that is super easy to deal with since not all my combat units have Distant Counter, and they can just tank the ranged foe and not fight back.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Right. Because a unit that is 1 point short of being hit with Chill probably didn't need the debuff in the first place. Mhm. Sure.

I would argue that the unit with the second highest Atk and the unit with the second highest Spd are more threatening simply because they don't get hit by Chill.

Unless defense is running multiples of the same unit with the only difference being a few Flowers, most nukes will have more than a few points of difference in Spd. And if they are sending in one nuke at a time, that just sounds like an easy win with your whole team ganging up on one foe, and I would not even bother with buffs and debuffs at that point.

Edited February 11, 2022 by XRay

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

In the rare case I cannot kill them with just bonus buffs alone, there is also Special Blade, Lightning Charm, Duo/Harmonized skills, or some combination of the previous options as additional ways to buff my nukes to secure the kill. And as a last resort, there is always just simply Dancing/Singing the nuke again and attack twice that way. Unless the Guard is a Def/Res tank that just completely walls off physical/magical nukes or something, Guards are not going to survive two rounds of combat against nukes. And if my nukes cannot make a dent in them, I can always just bypass them. I do not need to kill every Guard to win the match.

Your last resort costs another action, which is something that is in incredibly short supply in this game mode and is not always an option. Again, maintaining Wings of Mercy is not always possible due to the fact that units heal when they score a kill.

Bypassing guards is also not always an option. Most maps have sections that are covered by multiple guards, allowing them to kill the unit you are trying to send through, and ranged units cannot bypass guards due to their built-in Obstruct.

The first turn is often tricky simply because you need to spend actions just moving your units forward with mobility Assists or Dance, limiting the number of actions you have available to kill or clear guards, and the first "wall" of guards is often overlapped.

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

If the opponent is running enough wall breakers to crush a slow Save tank team, then they are not running enough normal nukes with competitive Spd that will pose a threat to kill high Spd super tanks. And if they are running enough nukes that bypass damage reduction to kill super tanks and most Save tanks, then that means they are running lots of Infantry Pulsers instead of cavalry nukes, so they are going to be hard countered by Galeforcers who can set up with impunity just outside of enemy range, and Fjorm: Ice Ascendent will still hand them their ass anyways with Ice Mirror-Hardy Fighter. Defense cannot have it all and be effective at the same time.

First, this assumes that the player has all of these teams available. Offense doesn't always "have it all". Once again, you can go on about how it's optimal to have this or that, but you fail to consider the fact that players don't always have this or that or don't want to play that play style. Not everyone has the resources or motivation to play optimally.

Second, your argument is plainly reductive, claiming that a defense team needs "enough" of a certain unit type to break a certain team composition and assuming that "enough" is high enough of a number to exclude the other "enoughs" and that that's the only way to break that team composition. That's simply not the case. Harmonized Catria is an obvious counterexample that allows her teammates to perform multiple offensive roles simultaneously, as she gives units that are otherwise just nukes wallbreaker capabilities and additional mobility. Legendary Sigurd is also a splashable unit that, even if he is killed in his first round of combat, grants the entire opposing team additional mobility for one turn. "Enough" can easily consist of just one or two units.

 

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Overlapping range is only an issue if the overlap is from enemies with the same Weapon range. A lot of times, the overlap is due range and melee enemies, and that is super easy to deal with since not all my combat units have Distant Counter, and they can just tank the ranged foe and not fight back.

Well, it's a good thing units with the same weapon range never overlap threat ranges, then.

And you still haven't answered the question of what skills actually compete with Menace in the C slot in this (and other) game modes and would actually be worth considering using over Menace, other than the few I've given that all have their caveats (Time's Pulse, Rein, Rouse, Joint Drive, and +1 movement).

 

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Unless defense is running multiples of the same unit with the only difference being a few Flowers, most nukes will have more than a few points of difference in Spd. And if they are sending in one nuke at a time, that just sounds like an easy win with your whole team ganging up on one foe, and I would not even bother with buffs and debuffs at that point.

Meanwhile, I'm looking at the 73 units in this game that have either 41, 42, or 43 base Spd. Almost ten percent of all units in this game have a base Spd stat between 41 and 43.

Ganging up on one unit is nice and all, but it only works if you can get all of your units out of the opponent's range afterwards, which can be quite difficult with certain enemy team compositions (usually involving dancers, Pathfinder, and/or ranged cavalry nukes).

[Sil/phire]

So i wen to look at what's available on the C slots for units i generally like. This are usually flyers or tome infantry. Flyers probably just want to run Rein skills because i just don't see what else is good besides menaces. but i have found it harder to find alternatives for infantry mages. I find using skills like tactics hard to keep up with because yes you need to keep a compact formation, same for joint drives, and that is not always the best way to deal with units if you need to split them across the map. Besides menaces and rouse skills, i can't actually find any "combat" skills (oath skills need a compact formation and provide a smaller buff). For reference, some of the units i generally like to play with are Deirdre, normal Marianne, Micaiah, normal Lilina, Ishtar. In the case of units that can't get auto doubles or can't do it with naturally high speed, like Deirdre and Lilina, the choices really just boil down to some type of atk/spd skill. generally i play arena runs, arena assault, and legendary/mythic/grand hero battles. and adding to that misfortune, some of them can't even make use of other skills like time's pulse because those are better paired with slaying effects, and you can't give them some utility skill like Odd Tempest.

On that point, would it even be possible to bring any of these units or their like to summoner duels? I dont play SDs because it seems super meta driven and i imagine the only competitive units would be horses and armors but is there even room for infantry units except fake horses like Yuri and dancers?

Actually, is there even room for horses that don't have canto or a prf weapon? like Cecilia, for example, or single-range horses like Eldigan.

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Sil/phire

[Ice Dragon]

15 minutes ago, Sil/phire said:

So i wen to look at what's available on the C slots for units i generally like. This are usually flyers or tome infantry. Flyers probably just want to run Rein skills because i just don't see what else is good besides menaces. but i have found it harder to find alternatives for infantry mages. I find using skills like tactics hard to keep up with because yes you need to keep a compact formation, same for joint drives, and that is not always the best way to deal with units if you need to split them across the map. Besides menaces and rouse skills, i can't actually find any "combat" skills (oath skills need a compact formation and provide a smaller buff). For reference, some of the units i generally like to play with are Deirdre, normal Marianne, Micaiah, normal Lilina, Ishtar. In the case of units that can't get auto doubles or can't do it with naturally high speed, like Deirdre and Lilina, the choices really just boil down to some type of atk/spd skill. generally i play arena runs, arena assault, and legendary/mythic/grand hero battles.

Here's a full list of every relevant C skill for player-phase and dual-phase units (i.e., excluding skills that don't directly benefit the user, skills that are only useful on enemy phase, and skills that benefit the user, but are better off offloaded to a support unit, like Ploy skills) along with my thoughts on each one:

Spoiler

Savage Blow: Useful for Galeforce units and wall breakers when there are multiple walls to break, but works against Catch. Cavalry and fliers running Catch will prefer to have Smoke skills instead.

Joint Drive: Mostly useful for dual-phase units and on team compositions that have means of staying together, like when using teleportation supports. Not recommended on cavalry due to their movement range often putting them out of range when attacking.

Rein: Restricted to fliers only. Better than Menace if you already have a source of buffs and debuffs elsewhere on your team, but Menace makes the unit a bit more splashable at the cost of some combat performance.

Menace: Good all-round skill. Really can't go wrong until you run into an enemy with Unity. Less effective if there are more than two units on the team with the same skill, but I think two units shouldn't overlap too much most of the time.

Stat Smoke: Useful for Galeforce units, particularly cavalry and fliers running Catch. Menace is more consistent for the first round of combat, but Smoke is more consistent for subsequent rounds of combat.

Pulse Smoke: Can be used to counter Infantry Pulse teams or prevent Fallen Edelgard from activating Bonfire. Very situational.

Panic Smoke: Very situational. I personally wouldn't recommend it, but it can still find some work in Aether Raids and Arena.

Fatal Smoke: Mostly useful in Aether Raids to counter the Healing Tower or to prevent Fallen Edelgard from healing. The former is generally more useful on defense than on offense. Situational.

Time's Pulse: Restricted to infantry only. Pretty standard for any infantry unit that wants to spam a non-AoE offensive Special with higher cooldown or that doesn't have access to a Slaying weapon.

Armor March: Restricted to armors only. Pretty standard when using more than one armor without Save. In general, you should typically run half of your non-Save armors with Armor March, rounded down.

Armored Stride: Restricted to armors only. Very situational. Fallen Edelgard is basically the only unit I'd actually recommend it on, and she already comes with it.

Rouse: Restricted to infantry and cavalry. Only worth using over Menace if you absolutely need immunity to Panic.

Oath: Restricted to infantry and cavalry. Only worth using over Menace if you don't have Menace.

Tempest: Restricted to melee infantry and fliers. Worth running on Galeforce units, units with Canto (Rem.+1), and in game modes with an emphasis on mobility, such as Summoner Duels.

Feud: The only one currently worth running is C Feud, and really only on Aether Raids defense to block Flayn/Elimine strategies. Also blocks stat boosts from Eir, Mila, and Ash, among others. The other colors don't really have common enough support units to be worth using their respective skills, and Flayn/Elimine is not common enough outside of Aether Raids offense to run the skill outside of Aether Raids defense.

That said, the non-colorless Feud skills are technically the most optimal skill for most Triangle Adept units that don't use Litrraven... if you somehow have that many resources to spare on your Triangle Adept units.

 

2 minutes ago, Sil/phire said:

On that point, would it even be possible to bring any of these units or their like to summoner duels? I dont play SDs because it seems super meta driven and i imagine the only competitive units would be horses and armors but is there even room for infantry units except fake horses like Yuri and dancers?

Combat units that also function as utility units, like Ash and Duo Chrom, are quite good in Summoner Duels. It's also advisable to have at least one wall breaker on your team, like Thorr or Desert Karla, that can be traded out to kill whatever is holding your opponent's team together (usually a Save tank).

Brave Alm is good because he's a "fake horse" with Sweep, and Echoes Palla is good due to solid combat performance and having Canto, but even among non-Canto 2-movement units, Brave Marth is a good pick, as well as pretty much all of the other fast infantry units released in the past year, like Fuzzy Hat Lakche or Charlotte when built to max out Spd. It's also often worth running Tempest on these units to turn them into fake horses half of the time.

[Xenomata]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Savage Blow: Useful for Galeforce units and wall breakers when there are multiple walls to break, but works against Catch. Cavalry and fliers running Catch will prefer to have Smoke skills instead.

There are also some Prf weapon effects that get disabled because one of the trigger conditions is that the enemy unit be at 100% HP, though none of importance spring to mind since "if foe is at 100% HP" tends to only be a secondary requirement to either "if unit initiates combat" or "if foe initiates combat." I guess Young Minerva's Dragoon Axe and Perceval's Prized Lance are the most "notable," if only because the 100% HP condition is the only effect trigger available on their weapons right now.

I just wanted to add that in since it wasn't mentioned.

[XRay]

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Your last resort costs another action, which is something that is in incredibly short supply in this game mode and is not always an option. Again, maintaining Wings of Mercy is not always possible due to the fact that units heal when they score a kill.

Bypassing guards is also not always an option. Most maps have sections that are covered by multiple guards, allowing them to kill the unit you are trying to send through, and ranged units cannot bypass guards due to their built-in Obstruct.

The first turn is often tricky simply because you need to spend actions just moving your units forward with mobility Assists or Dance, limiting the number of actions you have available to kill or clear guards, and the first "wall" of guards is often overlapped.

I run two Dancers/Singers every week and I am able to maintain Tier 20.5 with no issue, and sometimes I just stay in Tier 21. With two Dancers/Singers, you have more than enough actions and buffs to break past the first Guard.

And if you cannot break the first Guards in one round of combat, you can often get into Wings of Mercy range if the Guard can counter attack and just run past the Guard. Some maps will have a Guard that completely blocks the way, but you have so many options to play against or around it that I do not think they are an issue.

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

First, this assumes that the player has all of these teams available. Offense doesn't always "have it all". Once again, you can go on about how it's optimal to have this or that, but you fail to consider the fact that players don't always have this or that or don't want to play that play style. Not everyone has the resources or motivation to play optimally.

Players should at least invest in a super tank team, a Galeforce team, and a wall breaker team, and the latter two teams are not even merge dependent, and their most premium options are still cheaper to build than a budget super tank team. All three teams share Plumeria and Peony as their core Mythics, and those two are the best Mythics and have been out for like two years now, so I do not think it is too difficult to grab two or three copies in that time frame. Premium Galeforce is literally just Leif: Destined Scion +Atk-HP+0+0 and Dorothea: Twilit Harmony, and they both work great with minor modifications with budget skill inheritance, whereas Yen'fay as the cheapest super tank in Orbs still needs to summon for Kestrel Stance, Spurn, and Pulse Smoke; if the player wants to be a bit more fancy, they can throw in another Dorothea: Twilit Harmony or Marianne: Serene Adherent +Atk-Res+0+0 to match the Orb cost of Yen'fay. Premium wall breakers are so good these days that they do not even need a lot of merges to work, and two or three of them at +0+3 with maybe Fruit fixes will be more than enough.

If players are having issues with Spd checks and comparisons, then they should invest in Spd Mythics to win that check and comparison. This is no different from players complaining about not having the tools to deal with Edelgard: Hegemon Husk when the tools were always there.

If many players can invest in a super tank like Ike: Brave Mercenary or whatever their favorites are, they can in invest in a Galeforce and wall breaker team at a fraction of the cost.

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Well, it's a good thing units with the same weapon range never overlap threat ranges, then.

And you still haven't answered the question of what skills actually compete with Menace in the C slot in this (and other) game modes and would actually be worth considering using over Menace, other than the few I've given that all have their caveats (Time's Pulse, Rein, Rouse, Joint Drive, and +1 movement).

Enemies with same Weapon range over lap sometimes, but I do not think it is so difficult to deal with when a lot of times they also do not over lap. While the first wave can rush you to finish dealing them quickly or else you will be surrounded and lose points from killing the wrong match ups, once you have dealt with the first wave, you can take your time with the second wave. And honestly losing points from having one or two wrong match ups is not a huge deal. You got tons of extra tries to make it perfect if you really want to.

If you want to go premium in Allegiance Battles, then run Feuds on C. You are supposed to only fight those match ups anyways, so Feuds are perfect.

In Aether Raids offense for wall breakers, depending on how hard you can break tanks and assuming you are cavalry, you are probably better off running Savage Blow than Fatal Smoke if the walls do not survive for Fatal Smoke to trigger in the first place, and you can offload debuffs to Dancers/Singers with Chills. For Galeforcers, again, assuming cavalry, you are going to engage right away, and Menace cannot even reach that far, so I would just go with Savage Blow, Stat Smokes, or Infantry Flash depending on the team and skill composition. For super tanks, Pulse Smoke is the way to go to shut down Edelgard: Hegemon Husk, most Galeforcers, and just in case Infantry Pulse gets any funny ideas about trying to reassert themselves.

For Arena, there are three cheerleaders with six slots total in C and Sacred Seal to buff and debuff enemies to help the bonus unit secure one kill, assuming you even need that much in the first place, so I do not think Menace is particularly helpful unless it is on the bonus unit, and I do not think putting Menace on a bonus unit is a good idea if you are only going to use it for 2 or 3 weeks every few years. Atk buff and Spd buff are all you need unless you are running a Blade mage, and maybe one or two Chill if your bonus unit needs some extra Spd and/or damage.

Edited February 12, 2022 by XRay

[TheSilentChloey]

May sound completely dumb here, but I've got a question, again. >.>

 

Why the fuck does Elimine not come with her staff learned?  And how do you level her up without wasting crystals?  Do you just equip the lower healing skill?

[Xenomata]

33 minutes ago, TheSilentChloey said:

May sound completely dumb here, but I've got a question, again. >.>

 

Why the fuck does Elimine not come with her staff learned?  And how do you level her up without wasting crystals?  Do you just equip the lower healing skill?

Most all non-seasonal Staff units do not come with any weapons learned, a Relic of FEH's early days I would say since Clerics "famously" never come being able to attack right away.

Honestly you only need to level up a staff unit to 5 or 6 with crystals to learn Assault, and then you can grind SP and EXP on them as normal. I don't consider it that big a loss compared to getting SP on them with healing staff uses.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, TheSilentChloey said:

May sound completely dumb here, but I've got a question, again. >.>

Why the fuck does Elimine not come with her staff learned?  And how do you level her up without wasting crystals?  Do you just equip the lower healing skill?

Only Special Heroes start with a staff weapon already learned. All other staff units have no weapon when summoned.

Having no weapon is likely a reference to the main-series games where most staff units are unable to attack until they promote. Special Heroes having their staff weapon already learned is likely to make sure the themed weapon appears on the character sprite when the unit is summoned (if no staff weapon is equipped on a unit at the time of summoning, the "weapon" sprite for the staff Assist skill is displayed instead).

It's not really a big deal in practice. I usually just go into a low-level Training Tower map with the staff unit I'm training and three ranged units and let a unit with low Def tank some hits for my staff unit to heal. Go until you stop gaining exp., and you should have enough SP after that to learn Assault. (Staff units that come with a movement Assist need to equip a lower-level staff Assist to gain exp.)

[Sil/phire]

Is Wily Fighter a good B skill for A!Idunn? Idk, it seems a bit dull for some reason, especially seeing how Lucina's Savvy Fighter is looks so impressive. Recommendations?

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Sil/phire said:

Is Wily Fighter a good B skill for A!Idunn? Idk, it seems a bit dull for some reason, especially seeing how Lucina's Savvy Fighter is looks so impressive. Recommendations?

Wary Fighter, Crafty Fighter, and Slick Fighter all overlap with her weapon or default A skill, so they're off the table. Savvy Fighter is also off the table due to her presumably low Spd, and all of the player-phase Fighter skills don't help with her primary role as a Save tank.

Really, the only options that make sense if you keep a Stance skill on her A slot are Wily Fighter, Vengeful Fighter, and Hardy Fighter. Of those, Wily Fighter and Hardy Fighter are the best options.

If you switch her A skill to Close Def 4 for the extra bulk, you should switch her B skill to Crafty Fighter.

As long as you keep her as a Save tank, no A skills other than Stance and Def skills make sense due to her weapon effect and role.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Sil/phire said:

Is Wily Fighter a good B skill for A!Idunn? Idk, it seems a bit dull for some reason, especially seeing how Lucina's Savvy Fighter is looks so impressive. Recommendations?

If you want to stack damage reduction, you will want Dragon Wall or Hardy Fighter.

Dragon Wall:
+Res, +Atk/Def
Dew Dragonstone
Swap
Moonbow — Iceberg — Glacies
Mirror Stance — Bracing Stance
Dragon Wall
AR Near Save — DR Near Save
Quick Riposte

Hardy Fighter:
+Atk/Def/Res
Dew Dragonstone
Swap
Escutcheon — Pavise
(Any Stance that boosts Atk/Def, Atk/Res, or Def/Res) — (Any Breath that boosts Atk, Def, or Res)
Hardy Fighter
(Any Near Save that boosts Atk/Def, Atk/Res, or Def/Res)
Quick Riposte
You will need to offload Guard or A slot Breath effect to a support unit. I lean towards offloading Guard to Elimine with Tannenbaton rather than offloading Breath to Hilda: Deer's Two-Piece or Velouria: Renewed Wolfpup, since Elimine is just a better support as she can still provde damage reduction via Holy Ground.

For now, Dragon Wall is sufficient in most cases, as most melee units do not have damage reduction nullification and most of them have crappy Res. For future proofing, Hardy Fighter could potentially be better, as not only can it reach higher damage reduction, it is also unaffected by damage reduction nullification.

[Flying Shogi]

Are Galeforce teams a viable strategy for Summoners Duel Survival? I only have one good team built and I'm struggling to come up with teams so I'm looking for ideas.

[XRay]

3 hours ago, Flying Shogi said:

Are Galeforce teams a viable strategy for Summoners Duel Survival? I only have one good team built and I'm struggling to come up with teams so I'm looking for ideas.

Galeforce sucks in Summoner Duels. Ranged nukes with Canto is probably what you want. Dancers/Singers do not feel as strong in this mode as in other modes, so it is up to you if you want to run one, but I personally still run one just in case for flexibility.

As for Duo/Harmonized Heroes, I am very iffy on using their Duo/Harmonized skills as it takes an entire action to use, and in my opinion, I think using actions to position your team better or to score a kill would be a better use of those said actions.

For breaking some bulky tanks, the best ranged Canto nuke in my opinion is Leif: Destined Scion with Moonbow/Ruptured Sky since he got built in Miracle to stomach most counter attacks, and eating a counter attack from those units will usually land him straight into Desperation and Wings of Mercy range. Reginn: Bearing Dawn is also pretty good and got better Canto, but her Special is harder to charge after use.

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, XRay said:

As for Duo/Harmonized Heroes, I am very iffy on using their Duo/Harmonized skills as it takes an entire action to use, and in my opinion, I think using actions to position your team better or to score a kill would be a better use of those said actions.

I've seen Duo/Harmonized skills used to great effect specifically to burn an action without causing any of your units to gray out when you're already set up in a good position. This causes the opponent (me) to have to gray some of their units out, which limits their options later in the turn to pull units back to safety.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I've seen Duo/Harmonized skills used to great effect specifically to burn an action without causing any of your units to gray out when you're already set up in a good position. This causes the opponent (me) to have to gray some of their units out, which limits their options later in the turn to pull units back to safety.

Yeah, that is one good use of it, although in that scenario, it often just ends up both teams sitting at the edge of each other's max range, so I generally initiate first and get the match over with.

[Faellin]

What would a good inheritable weapon be for this general type of Mustafa build? The typical slow brick wall tank type. The build itself isn't finished, but the big thing i'm after currently is a better weapon.

The issue is, all the common ones I see recomended are a bit problematic for me to obtain. Those being unbound from Vyland, spirited from Basilio, and plegian from Kris. All 3 are a bit out of reach currently since i'm in the middle of merging up the first 2, and in the case of Kris I already have him at +10, so my next copy will cost 500.

So any other recomendations that aren't tied to those 3 characters?

[Xenomata]

@Faellin You can always consider the original versions of Vyland and Basilio's weapons, the Deck Swabber and Huge Fan off Pirate Darros and Wedding Hinata. If you have no plans to merge either of them up, they will only cost 100 grails if not one of the free copies we could get from their original TTs.

If you have a spare Summer Caspar lying around, Victorfish+ is able to steal any Def bonuses the enemy may have (adds the total Def bonus on foe to units Def, while inflicting penalty on foe's Def equal to their Def bonus), while having a similar effect to the Deck Swabber/Unbound Axe all as long as the enemies HP is over 75%. The bad part is that Victorfish adds +5 to your Def and inflicts -5 on the foe, rather than being an Atk/Def debuff on the enemy, meaning Mustafa's mixed bulk will suffer.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Xenomata