Which game has the best class balance?

[Jotari]

In terms of classes, not necessarily units, which game do you think has the best balance? Were talking games in which cavaliers aren't dominant and archers are actually useful rather than focusing on Seth and Neimi individually.

[Magical Glace]

Well, I guess the best way to approach this is process of elimination.

Definitely no:

FE4/9 - If you have a horse, you are better.  End. of. Story.

FE13 - Nosferatu-nosferatu-nosferatu-nosf--

Any game with full seize (6, 11, etc.) - Knights suck, RIP.

Heroes - the smaller maps and lower move overall makes movement differences really prominent here.  Poor knights, once again.

FE10 - I believe I can flyyyyyyyyyyyyyy... The ability to fly is a massive boon both indoors and out.  

You know what most of what I've said here applies to all the games to some extent...

[Reality]

FE1- I think most characters have quite beefy growths here. However this does backfire a bit with marth/caeda.... eventually "units you can move without thinking" start to stand out from "merely good".

FE2- lopsided

FE3- the questionable map design and enemy placement can help low move units get into range, esp on the book1 locations. The game's good maps mostly shift unit balance to GBA standards though.

FE4-lopsided

FE5- Genearals aren't saved, but axe users get a nice boost- Arguably thieves if you can't resist. Thracia's mounted units are still pretty important, especially with their general immunity to capture and all. Some nice magic users. 

FE6- hitrates+all seize maps limit the good unit pool

FE7- only a tiny bit better.

FE8- everyone is good, but really, prepromotes and mounted units are the ones who obtain their goodness efficiently.

FE9= Most people are pretty over-the-top, but personally I think that swordmasters/mages are annoying when everyone else gets bulk for free. Generals get out-generaled by the tiger laguz, who themselves are second-tier units. Cat laguz compete with human units better. Bird laguz have little chance against  Marcia/tanith (jill/haar) are kind of icing, Props to the two archers for near-capping everything, including def, but I'm not sure it's really enough here.  Axes in this game stay relevent to other weapons, and are blatantly the best if forging is used. Some other quirky stuff like nephenee as a wierdly powerful footy. The charathers who need BEXP the most (astrid, tormod, makalov, and especially elincia) can be good if you want them too, but are generally to much troupe compared to the solid crew you'll already have at that point. Not all prepromotes are equal, Caliil is a ready to use unit, while bastian and largo need paying attention to. Rhys is kind of a sucky priest and the fact that you can have soren/illyana promoted early and given staffs really sucks for him. 

FE10- Depends on how you weight Part 1 and Part 2 compared to Part 3 and 4. Although arguably "balance" is achieved by neccesity+few one off things like the crossbow. Book 3 and 4 don't have any semblance of balance, although you can groom anyone for it if you have time to burn.

11: Reasonable. I think there is a lot of room for expression in this game, class wise. 

12:  I need to think about it. I don't really see  your army as diverse as the enemy.

13: GALEFORCE. Everything below Lunatic is really not a matter of killing, which should be taken for granted even on dumb shit like mage virion / trickster kellam. I kind of lose all will not to just use the highest movement classes . On Lunatic+, offensive magic sorcer/sage/grandmaster are good, skill-less wyverns are fine if they stack with charather  personal growths (panne), warriors are a good class, Heros are a good class, both Falco and Dark flier are good class, and everything else is pretty much acceptable ONLY after you already have grabbed skills from the good classes and/or you are limiting yourself to early game babysitting of the main army.

14: Probably has best balance, (not counting for versus mode teams)  mounties, fliers, foot axes/spears can all do stuff, staff users are wanted in numbers for once.

Main problems are like: sword master fragility kind of makes you want to limit it to natural sword masters and not heart seal it off of them.  Sages underwhelm a little. Merchant family really just grabs it's broken skill and classes to something better. I have mixed feelings about the animals and ninjas.

[The DanMan]

Honestly, I think Fates takes it. Yeah, Ninjas can be a bit domineering (especially for the enemies with cheat skills), but besides that I think it's pretty balanced. Every class has its own niche and reasons to use it, with even Ninjas only having a slight edge over everything else.

[Refa]

Gaiden; there's only one truly OP class (Falcoknight) in the game, with every other class being useful (not necessarily amazing, as Archer/Cavalier have some issues, especially if you're promoting Villagers into them; still, they're not a detriment to your team by any means).

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

• FE4: If you're neither mounted nor a healer, you're pretty much lost.
• FE5: Scrolls can do wonders. However generic caps kill the actual point of having different classes.
• FE6: Sword and Magic Emblem
• FE7: Fighters are shit.
• FE8: Everyone is usable since the enemies are mediocre.
• FE9: soft version of FE4
• FE10: Jill + Haar Emblem. Also mage-hostile territory
• FE13: Galeforce Emblem
   

Haven't played 11, 12 and Fates enough to tell about them.

In FE5 + 8 no class really sucks.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Fates. The tighter stat caps allowed for more classes to compete, and the skill distribution for classes between Nohr and Hoshido was on point. Skills like wary fighter and Life and Death have appropriate risk v reward. Nerfing skills in order to differentiate player phase and enemy phase was a genius approach to Awakening. 

It is held back a bit with individual characters on the hoshido side having mundane class sets - nine of them are samurai or can heart seal into samurai without A+ or S support, not counting corrin. Ninja is also oversaturared. I also still don't like how Counter works, and feel Gamble is either annoying with Fates' reduced hit rates or a straight upgrade once your fighters have become sword wielding heroes with better hit rates. 10 hit for 10 crit is not sensible risk vs. reward, and I wish they'd try again at making it a battle command like in Tellius. It's not a gamble if the choice is taken from you.

10's system is still Canto-centric. And infantry balance is basically class mirrors. Halberdiers, Snipers, they're just swordmasters using different weapons. And the drag and drop skill system hurts unit individuality. FE8 is also not good. Only five classes have class skills. Slayer is far and away the best, making bishop the best class for late and especially post-game. This may be the only game with class skills where the Lords don't get one that makes them uniquely overpowered.

[Jotari]

31 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

Fates. The tighter stat caps allowed for more classes to compete, and the skill distribution for classes between Nohr and Hoshido was on point. Skills like wary fighter and Life and Death have appropriate risk v reward. Nerfing skills in order to differentiate player phase and enemy phase was a genius approach to Awakening. 

It is held back a bit with individual characters on the hoshido side having mundane class sets - nine of them are samurai or can heart seal into samurai without A+ or S support, not counting corrin. Ninja is also oversaturared. I also still don't like how Counter works, and feel Gamble is either annoying with Fates' reduced hit rates or a straight upgrade once your fighters have become sword wielding heroes with better hit rates. 10 hit for 10 crit is not sensible risk vs. reward, and I wish they'd try again at making it a battle command like in Tellius. It's not a gamble if the choice is taken from you.

10's system is still Canto-centric. And infantry balance is basically class mirrors. Halberdiers, Snipers, they're just swordmasters using different weapons. And the drag and drop skill system hurts unit individuality. FE8 is also not good. Only five classes have class skills. Slayer is far and away the best, making bishop the best class for late and especially post-game. This may be the only game with class skills where the Lords don't get one that makes them uniquely overpowered.

Re Sacred Stones: I think the balance of skills was to give them to classes that don't gain a second weapon on promotion. Though bishops and summoners still got staves. Which really doesn't help matters since they unquestionably have the best skills. Also I count seven skills, not five (Slayer, Summon, Pierce, Sure Hit, Big Shield (oh wait, Generals get two weapons too, still they're facing a mounted unit that has three), Pick and Lethality. I suspect Pick is one of the ones you overlooked, still counted as a skill on the promotion screen though).

Edited April 10, 2017 by Jotari

[BrightBow]

Easily Gaiden. Every class has something that makes them worth using. Archers have their 3-5 range, Mages are more versatile then they've ever been in later games and the durability of Armored Knights is high enough to actually make more then up for the fact that every single enemy doubles them.

Pegasus Knights and especially Falcon Knights are kinda uber but that does seem to be deliberate.

[ping]

Well, if I try to look only at the classes and less at the stats of the units in it...

FE6 is pretty bad because several classes are just strictly worse than others. As an example, Wolt, Dorothy, Klein and Igrene would gain mobility, canto and swords as troopers without losing literally anything. The added weakness to anti-horse weapons in FE7 and 8 is almost completely irrelevant at all, too, as is the sniper ability in Sacred Stones.

The same is even more true in PoR - if the player had the ability to choose, cavs/paladins would always be superior to infantry units, but still not as good as pegasi and wyverns. Radiant Dawn does have somewhat lower caps on gold/silver knights and quite a few maps that are basically a middle finger for mounted units, but flyers (or at least wyvern riders) still reign supreme while the Armor Knight line is bad in almost every way. I mean, Haar has a higher Def cap than Brom... I do enjoy the inherent 2-3 range on marksmen, though.

I actually like the unit balance in FE12. Dracoknights and Falcoknights are still extremely strong, but the low Spd cap of the former is actually relevant later in the game. At the same time, classes like Sniper and Swordmaster can still have some situational use because of their weapon ranks compared to the more versatile Horsemen and Heroes.

[Nobody]

Yeah, none of them are good at it, but out of elimination i'm going with Fates.

FE4 - Horse Emblem. The fact some holy weapon users are significantly worse than regular mounted units (e.g. Briggid compared to Lex and Finn) makes it clear this isn't the one. Maps are so huge, foot units are catching up most of the time. It's probably the least balanced.

FE6 - I axes users are fucked. Western isles screw lances. Knigths are awful. All chapters are seize. Yeah, not this one lol.

FE7 - Okay balance, RELATIVELY speaking. Mounted units and fliers obviously have the advantage, but foot units at least can hold on their own even without superior stats, unlike 4 and 6. The fact that paladins use axes better than axe specific classes is a big issue, though.

FE8 - Not that different from 7, I guess, but removing axes from paladins was a good move.

FE9 - Most laguz classes suck. Mounted units and Fliers dominate. Yeah, not this one.

FE10 - Even more useless Laguz. Mages also took a hit from 9. For the first time ever horse users aren't way better than foot units, but fliers still dominate. It's weird because in some way the balance is even worse than the average in the series, but in others it's done better, so i guess it's on the series average?

FE11 - Many useless classes. Warp + fliers + horses dominate. Yeah, no.

FE12 - I think the balance is better than 11, and it improves on late game due to the low caps. Will you use a swordmaster than can double or a slow wyvern lord? I think this is the only game in the series that makes you think that. Still, mounted units and fliers reign absolute for 85% of the game.

FE13 - Honestly, this game is such a broken mess I don't even know where it ranks. Contrary to the popular belief, you don't need nosferatu to demolish it, just pair up and some low manning. So yeah, any class can tear it apart even on Lunatic, no idea where the class balance ranks.

14 - I think this one is the one that does class balance the best, mainly conquest. Effie is a knight that you can keep relevant through the entire game, thanks to the way early maps are designed and the GK promotion. Ninjas are really great, but they lack mounts. Everyone else lacks reliable 1-2 physical weapons, with the exception of specific characters. Magic hits 1-2 range but is weak-ish. Bows are strong and effective against ninjas. Fliers are as good as ever, but again, lack reliable 1-2 range. I think the nerf to 1-2 range weapons improved class balance quite a bit.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Nobody

[maybe]

16 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Easily Gaiden. Every class has something that makes them worth using. Archers have their 3-5 range, Mages are more versatile then they've ever been in later games and the durability of Armored Knights is high enough to actually make more then up for the fact that every single enemy doubles them.

actually valbo doesn't always get doubled 

in fact, he can double a few weaker enemies early on, although he does get doubled pretty often later on

but yeah I'd say gaiden, pretty much every class is useful there, and the only one significantly more useful than the rest is falcon/pegasus knight

part of it might have to do with fighter, possibly the worst class, not being there, as well as archers being able to attack close range 

Edited April 10, 2017 by unique

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Gustavos said:

Fates. The tighter stat caps allowed for more classes to compete, and the skill distribution for classes between Nohr and Hoshido was on point. Skills like wary fighter and Life and Death have appropriate risk v reward. Nerfing skills in order to differentiate player phase and enemy phase was a genius approach to Awakening

I kinda disagree with you on Life and Death - the risk vs reward is skewed against the player, as I see it. 10 extra damage for both sides is pretty bad when you consider the stakes... It doesn't help that most Hoshidans die if you so much as stare hard at them, nor does it that Life and Death is a level 15 skill.

Anyways, I'm torn between Gaiden and Fates, though I'm leaning more towards the former.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Zapp Branniglenn]

31 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I kinda disagree with you on Life and Death - the risk vs reward was skewed against the player, as I see it. 10 extra damage for both sides is pretty bad when you consider the stakes...

It is definitely polarizing, and I wouldn't want more than one or two Life and Death users on the team. It comes with the samurai class set, who can only dodge well on player phase thanks to duelists blow. Pair it with vantage (also in the samurai line) and it's functional for enemy phase too, albeit still risky. And with how many characters get this skill through reclassing, I've had a lot of luck with it on the ranged classes like Odin's dark mage line, and saizo's ninja line, or anybody you've made into a dread fighter who can use shuriken and eventually get aggressor. Hidden weapons and tomes are the weakest MT weapon types, so these characters really appreciate +10 (or 20 when doubling) damage against opponents that can't attack back. It also opens up opportunities to not just one round but one shot enemies, again great with Vantage.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Re Sacred Stones: I think the balance of skills was to give them to classes that don't gain a second weapon on promotion. Though bishops and summoners still got staves. Which really doesn't help matters since they unquestionably have the best skills. Also I count seven skills, not five (Slayer, Summon, Pierce, Sure Hit, Big Shield (oh wait, Generals get two weapons too, still they're facing a mounted unit that has three), Pick and Lethality. I suspect Pick is one of the ones you overlooked, still counted as a skill on the promotion screen though).

Yes I suppose Lockpick and Summon should be counted too.

I do have some more gripes with Sacred stones. Like how the triangle attack cannot be performed if you make Tana and Vanessa into Wyvern Lords.  If you make one into a wyvern lord, then you can only perform the attack if that unit initiates (which may have been an oversight). I don't like this because FE6 established the idea that it doesn't specifically have to be pegasus sisters that can perform the triangle attack, but any three characters with a strong bond. FE9 provided further evidence but also forces you to choose bows on Oscar's promotion. Also, in general, I feel like Tana and Vanessa should have been able to class into Wyvern Knight instead of Lord. Being lance locked while having low con sucks, and I wish the choice for Tana and Vanessa could have been a simple choice of which mount you like more. Then leave the Wyvern "master" class for Cormag since it suits him the most. His supports with Duessel imply a struggle where he may end up down the same dark path as Valter - or become the greater master of his power. The choice of Lord like Valter or Knight like his brother is symbolic of this.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Gustavos

[Florete]

It's funny how people say fliers dominate in RD when it's really just Haar and Jill because the Pegasi are decent at best, bad at worst. And then Jill takes some work to actually get going. And even Haar doesn't really "dominate" without a bit of help. I guess Tibarn exists for a few chapters.

Some people are saying Gaiden, which I haven't played, so maybe that's the best, but of what I have played I'd give it to Fates. Pair Up by its very nature helps mitigate the move issues that tend to plague balance in the series and Fates does a pretty good job of distinguishing most of its classes and giving them a fair amount of viability.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Gustavos said:

It is definitely polarizing, and I wouldn't want more than one or two Life and Death users on the team. It comes with the samurai class set, who can only dodge well on player phase thanks to duelists blow. Pair it with vantage (also in the samurai line) and it's functional for enemy phase too, albeit still risky. And with how many characters get this skill through reclassing, I've had a lot of luck with it on the ranged classes like Odin's dark mage line, and saizo's ninja line, or anybody you've made into a dread fighter who can use shuriken and eventually get aggressor. Hidden weapons and tomes are the weakest MT weapon types, so these characters really appreciate +10 (or 20 when doubling) damage against opponents that can't attack back. It also opens up opportunities to not just one round but one shot enemies, again great with Vantage.

The problem is, many a Hoshidan dies very quickly without needing to make them even more fragile. And let's not forget that it comes at level 15, AKA too late to matter. Also, I don't really think Vantage is all that great, with this being Low HP Emblem... Would you really be willing to send out a unit that's already missing at least half their HP when most units tend to have low HP totals? I wouldn't.

7 hours ago, Reality said:

Merchant family really just grabs it's broken skill and classes to something better.

You mean the one that comes much too late to matter?

Edited April 10, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jedi]

FE12 encourages use of pretty much every class in the game, and even FE11 on H5 gives you some significant uses for even Generals at times.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Jedi

[ping]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

It's funny how people say fliers dominate in RD when it's really just Haar and Jill because the Pegasi are decent at best, bad at worst. And then Jill takes some work to actually get going. And even Haar doesn't really "dominate" without a bit of help. I guess Tibarn exists for a few chapters.

Well, I was thinking about the classes and less about the characters in them, if that makes any sense. And both Jill's and Haar's variations have little to no downsides to counteract their great mobility - their caps are perfectly fine on both tier 2 and 3 and their weakness against thunder magic is a lot less impactful than the traditional arrow weakness. On the other side of the spectrum, being a Knight/General/Marshall only harms the unit. Brom and Gatrie are decent enough, but they would be better off in almost every other physical class.

It's especially noticeable because IS did make sure to nerf horseback units a bit by giving them relatively low caps, introducing ledges that they can't climb and reduce their movement on indoor maps. (I'm aware that the latter is also true for flyers, but 2/3 ain't bad)

[The Malign Knight]

It's either Gaiden or Conquest: both games have classes that are always useful and in both cases there are few special cases that are a bit superior, but all in all, every classes is perfectly fine in these two games imho

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Florete said:

Fates does a pretty good job of distinguishing most of its classes and giving them a fair amount of viability.

Go tell that to Fighters and Berserkers, because - surprise, surprise - they suck. Again.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Florete]

1 hour ago, ping said:

Well, I was thinking about the classes and less about the characters in them, if that makes any sense. And both Jill's and Haar's variations have little to no downsides to counteract their great mobility - their caps are perfectly fine on both tier 2 and 3 and their weakness against thunder magic is a lot less impactful than the traditional arrow weakness. On the other side of the spectrum, being a Knight/General/Marshall only harms the unit. Brom and Gatrie are decent enough, but they would be better off in almost every other physical class.

Oh, right. It can be hard to separate classes from actual units. I managed it for my actual answer to the topic but forgot about it at this part. Whoops.

[Jedi]

5 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Go tell that to Fighters and Berserkers, because - surprise, surprise - they suck. Again.

Try using Percy as a Zerker in late game Conquest and say that again, oh wait you don't try any difficult modes or games thats right.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Quote

It's funny how people say fliers dominate in RD when it's really just Haar and Jill because the Pegasi are decent at best, bad at worst. And then Jill takes some work to actually get going. And even Haar doesn't really "dominate" without a bit of help. I guess Tibarn exists for a few chapters

The thing about the Pegasi is that they join rather late (Sigrun + Tanith) or have low availibility (Elincia). Also triple damage against them is a thing.
However at the end their stats are good enough (aside of Sigrun) to wreck the enemies. Since endgame is more made for high res units they're absolutely appreciated.
Without them you can't oneturn Ashera.

Quote

FE10: For the first time ever horse users aren't way better than foot units

Funnily enough the female cavaliers would own the foot units because of their better caps... if they had just higher bases or base level.

[Shadow Mir]

19 hours ago, Gustavos said:

I do have some more gripes with Sacred stones. Like how the triangle attack cannot be performed if you make Tana and Vanessa into Wyvern Lords.  If you make one into a wyvern lord, then you can only perform the attack if that unit initiates (which may have been an oversight). I don't like this because FE6 established the idea that it doesn't specifically have to be pegasus sisters that can perform the triangle attack, but any three characters with a strong bond. FE9 provided further evidence but also forces you to choose bows on Oscar's promotion. Also, in general, I feel like Tana and Vanessa should have been able to class into Wyvern Knight instead of Lord. Being lance locked while having low con sucks, and I wish the choice for Tana and Vanessa could have been a simple choice of which mount you like more. Then leave the Wyvern "master" class for Cormag since it suits him the most. His supports with Duessel imply a struggle where he may end up down the same dark path as Valter - or become the greater master of his power. The choice of Lord like Valter or Knight like his brother is symbolic of this.

Er, you confused Wyvern Lord and Wyvern Knight - Glen is the former, and Valter is the latter, which is also a promotion of Pegasus Knights.

10 hours ago, Jedi said:

Try using Percy as a Zerker in late game Conquest and say that again, oh wait you don't try any difficult modes or games thats right.

The hell's that supposed to mean?! Because for your information, I did beat Conquest. Anyways, no dice - I don't like the idea of constantly having to luck out every time a Berserker sees combat thanks to how bad being in the receiving end of a critical hit is, and their crit evade penalty. And while we're on the subject of Percy, while his personal gives him a crit evade boost, he's saddled with a negative luck modifier no thanks to his dad, so as a Berserker, he just might face crit chances anyway. Whoopedy-freaking-do.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The problem is, many a Hoshidan dies very quickly without needing to make them even more fragile. And let's not forget that it comes at level 15, AKA too late to matter. Also, I don't really think Vantage is all that great, with this being Low HP Emblem... Would you really be willing to send out a unit that's already missing at least half their HP when most units tend to have low HP totals? I wouldn't.

You mean the one that comes much too late to matter?

Vantage doesn't mean throwing your unit at the enemy when they have half HP. It means throwing your unit at the enemy when they have full HP, and if they do manage to get hit, it keeps them surviving until player phase where they can retreat or heal.