SatsumaFSoysoy Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Just now, Tenzen12 said: If he is enemy you can either have him come to you or bait him with one of these seven either is option. So yes I call it free kill. So you're just telling me: "I have access to, and have brought/will always bring a counter to this unit, or I can ORKO him/her on my phase without issue every single time regardless of his/her advantages and the map." If we apply this argument every single time a unit is brought up, everyone in this game is free, and we've just wasted each other's time. We're not talking about whether or not a unit can be dealt with, because with how dumb and predictable the AI is, there's always a way to beat them barring certain setups + map screw. How is a unit that has single digit true counters in a game with over 140 units free? The fact that you use "bait them with one of those seven" as one of your counter-arguments just shows how NOT free he is; if you don't build around fighting him you've already lost. If you choose to play around him and kill him on Player Phase, you either have to stay outside of his range until the right moment (which can cause other enemies to close in and you lose the chance to kill them first), or you overextend just to kill him, which can leave your unit at risk of getting attacked by someone else. Only a few maps like the desert one in the current rotation offers such a luxury, depending on the enemy team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenzen12 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) Actually yes, that's my point, even best units are free kill, so yes taking about how any unit is easy kill as enemy is indeed waste of time. @XRayI am pretty tempted do it, but I guess I would rather loose argument then installing new apps return to my old arena team (as good as Hector is, unfortunately he can't have honey cavalry) and spend hour somehow putting these videos together and figuring how to upload it on YouTube. Also why he should do most killing? Well, sometimes he did, sometimes it was Olwen. I would say Olwen had bit edge in killing, where Hector did better in saving my ass and baiting. Edited June 27, 2017 by Tenzen12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 20 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said: @SatsumaFSoysoy mentioned it, I just rebuked it. It's on this very page. Do you mean this? 39 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said: Also, most of the people here actually play this game, believe it or not, some of them almost constantly. This theoretical plane you speak of also includes personal experience, from both people who use and fight against Hector. Not everyone who says Hector relies too much on teammate positioning is just "strawmanning". This game is actually a lot more "one-dimensional ABC logic" than normal FEs because resource management is not considered in unit power discussion (since it's meaningless in a gacha game where what you get is random), and RNG is 100% gone. What exactly are you rebuking? No one said anything about fighting against Hector being anything besides a piece of personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatsumaFSoysoy Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 6 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said: Actually yes, that's my point, even best units are free kill, so yes taking about how any unit is easy kill as enemy is indeed waste of time. @XRayI am pretty tempted do it, but I guess I would rather loose argument then installing new apps return to my old arena team (as good as Hector is, unfortunately he can't have honey cavalry) and spend hour somehow putting these videos together and figuring how to upload it on YouTube. Also why he should do most killing? Well, sometimes he did, sometimes it was Olwen. I would say Olwen had bit edge in killing, where Hector did better in saving my ass and baiting. So you're not trying to start an intelligent debate/argument/discussion. You're just a bad troll who thinks he's good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenzen12 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) Not really It's just that I am willing to intelligent debate as long as it doesn't require excessive effort from my side. I think Trolls in general ate willing put much more effort than me. @Ice DragonSee, someone did mentioned it. And you yourself said it was irrelevant which is exactly what I did as well. Edited June 27, 2017 by Tenzen12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatsumaFSoysoy Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Okay, he is a bad troll. I've been had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 6 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said: Actually yes, that's my point, even best units are free kill, so yes taking about how any unit is easy kill as enemy is indeed waste of time. @XRayI am pretty tempted do it, but I guess I would rather loose argument then installing new apps return to my old arena team (as good as Hector is, unfortunately he can't have honey cavalry) and spend hour somehow putting these videos together and figuring how to upload it on YouTube. Also why he should do most killing? Well, sometimes he did, sometimes it was Olwen. I would say Olwen had bit edge in killing, where Hector did better in saving my ass and baiting. There is H/F Armor. If Hector is not doing most of the killing, then I might as well replace him with someone who can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenzen12 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Now you lost me. Are you saying only one good unit is allowed in your team and having two characters doing heavy lifting depending on situation is wrong? Hmm maybe I should replace Azura she rarely kill anything so she is useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Dragon Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said: See, someone did mentioned it. And you yourself said it was irrelevant which is exactly what I did as well. No, it was entirely relevant to the argument being presented. You just basically picked a few words out of context and decided to spin it off as if there were some argument to be had there, which basically means you have nothing better to say. 6 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said: Okay, he is a bad troll. I've been had. Won't stop me from chewing him out. Gotta set examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenzen12 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) So far I addressed every issue properly. You not liking what you hear is not really my fault. Well I can either continue or leave, doesn't really matter. One word is enough. Edited June 27, 2017 by Tenzen12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said: Now you lost me. Are you saying only one good unit is allowed in your team and having two characters doing heavy lifting depending on situation is wrong? Hmm maybe I should replace Azura she rarely kill anything so she is useless. I never said that it was wrong. What I am saying is that if Hector cannot do most of the lifting by himself, there are a dozen other units who can. B!Cordelia, Reinhardt, and Blade mages can carry the team. Hector cannot. And Azura is only as good as her teammates. Edited June 27, 2017 by XRay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 53 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said: Nobody has even mentioned fighting against Hector in the past day, so I don't see how this helps your argument at all besides making it look like you've run out of relevant arguments. I actually did "Unless your refering to Arena Defense Hector, in which case i'd stand by my view that Hector is easilly the worst/second worst unit in the game" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenzen12 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) @XRay Yes, but what if you have B!Cordelia AND Reinhardt? That they both do their share of killing doesn't undermine quality of either unit. If Reinhardt do slightly more killing is that reason replace B!Cordelia with someone who can make killing than Rein? Edited June 27, 2017 by Tenzen12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Just now, Tenzen12 said: @XRay Yes, but what if you have B!Cordelia AND Reinhardt? That they both do their share of killing doesn't undermine quality of either unit. I do have both, but I can remove one of them and stick a B rank character from the Wiki's tier list who can cover their weakness and they will perform fine. If you remove Olwen, and stick a less powerful character in there, Hector is going to have some trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruruo Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, XRay said: I never said that it was wrong. What I am saying is that if Hector cannot do most of the lifting by himself, there are a dozen other units who can. B!Cordelia, Reinhardt, and Blade mages can carry the team. Hector cannot. And Azura is only as good as her teammates. eh... but those glasscannons will need someone to move them to safety. Blade tomes require buffs from allies to truly shine, so aren't truly stand alone units either. I doubt there really any one unit in the who can do everything by themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenzen12 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) @XRayWell Olwen does cover for Hector weakness (and vice versa) I found their relationship very symbiotic. Edited June 27, 2017 by Tenzen12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Just now, komasa said: eh... but those glasscannons will need someone to move them to safety. Blade tomes require buffs from allies to truly shine, so aren't truly stand alone units either. I doubt there really any one unit in the who can do everything by themselves. That is true, but Hector needs more support than most and even with that extra level of support, Hector cannot carry the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Just now, Tenzen12 said: @XRayWell Olwen does cover for Hector weakness (and vice versa) I found their relationship very symbiotic, that they both can do killing was more of result how good they cover for each other Olwen is not a weak character. Dire Thunder and Blárblade are some of the best weapons in the game. You can replace Hector, and Olwen will be fine. If you replace Olwen, Hector will have some trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenzen12 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Why? Because other blue characters suck? I think blue is pretty strong at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuxSpes Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I have 3 Hectors, including one with Vantage, Pivot and Bonfire and I've never used any of them since getting them because I can't think of a scenario where I'd prefer having him over Fae in the arena. Maybe I should give him Panic Ploy from one of my 5 Luke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said: Why? Because other blue characters suck? I think blue is pretty strong at the moment. I am pretty sure you are avoiding the fact that Hector cannot carry a team while Olwen can. Hector cannot function well without a strong teammate to back him up, and even then, he is at most doing half the kills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlordsd Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 19 minutes ago, XRay said: I am pretty sure you are avoiding the fact that Hector cannot carry a team while Olwen can. Hector cannot function well without a strong teammate to back him up, and even then, he is at most doing half the kills. Olwen requires an absurd amount of investment to be worthwhile, though, so that is a problem. And no Olwen can truly carry a team, regardless of what set up you use. Rather, Olwen can be carried BY a team, assuming you have the proper set up. Hector does have a long history of being able to solo Lunatic GHBs (Ursula, F. Robin, etc.), which no other unit in the game can do, so there is that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Just now, dragonlordsd said: Olwen requires an absurd amount of investment to be worthwhile, though, so that is a problem. And no Olwen can truly carry a team, regardless of what set up you use. Rather, Olwen can be carried BY a team, assuming you have the proper set up. Hector does have a long history of being able to solo Lunatic GHBs (Ursula, F. Robin, etc.), which no other unit in the game can do, so there is that. Olwen needing investment does not discount how powerful she is. +Atk, Blade, L&D, Lbreaker, and vanilla Eirika buff allows her to kill 125 neutral vanilla units. That is enough to carry a team. With a Hone Cavalry teammate, Olwen can kill 133. +Atk Hector with Moonbow on enemy phase with vanilla Eirika buff kills 108. +Atk Olwen with Dire Thunder, L&D, Lbreaker, and no buffs can achieve 106 kills. Factoring in their movement range, Olwen is going to do a lot more work than Hector. GHB battles are predictable, so Hector's low movement can be mitigated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DehNutCase Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, JSND said: I actually did "Unless your refering to Arena Defense Hector, in which case i'd stand by my view that Hector is easilly the worst/second worst unit in the game" Hector is actually a pretty decent unit, I'd probably rate him around B/B/A/F/C*, the F in mobility is obvious, and the C in support needed is because, while he doesn't actually need that many buffs, he does need reposition assists to move him around---which costs him either his turn or other people's turns. It's not top tier, sure, but definitely not the worst in the game. Mobility and support needed tends to matter less than offensive ability, defensive ability, and counter-kill ability. You can fix the last two (mobility B-slots, assists, teammates), you cant fix the first three. (Since that's a function of stat spread and color.) *Edit: Note that this is a rating I haven't actually tested, I'd need to go through Hector's builds to make a complete evaluation. I can't imagine he'd be any worse than the dragons, though, since he has the Emerald Axe, Distant Counter set with QR or Vantage (Vantage to OHKO mages, QR to ORKO everyone, at the cost of being weaker vs. mages). This on top of any other sets he can run, of course. Edited June 27, 2017 by DehNutCase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruruo Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 2 hours ago, XRay said: That is true, but Hector needs more support than most and even with that extra level of support, Hector cannot carry the team. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. How much support are you imagining Hector to needing? At bare minimum you can just get away with one person who he can Pivot over. Repositioning skills are also great with him, but those kind of skills are also useful for anyone on the team too. Also why are we comparing Hector with the likes of Olwen, -bladetomes and archers? He's an EP unit that serves a different purpose to those glass cannons. With Hector (at least imho) it's never about positioning him into someone's face, or across an entire map. He's there to get in range and ruin formations. I'm not saying Hector is the most amazing thing since sliced bread, but he's hardly trash tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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