What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 1/1/2021 at 11:35 PM, joevar said:

serious one: FE should start inserting bad ending. why? because not every war always ends in a good note/outcome , they have done split route in the beginning of the game why not introduce split ending (again), theres already dialogue option in 3H (no matter how hollow the option is), and RPG element keep getting added more and more in FE

but i dont think people want to spend that much time only to get shitty ending and have to spend another 50+ hours to get better ending just because they pick the wrong side (the geneeral audience, not the fandom. fandom can get crazy number of playthrough how many times they want)

Interestingly, in light of Mystery of the Emblem, the ending of Shadow Dragon is kind of a bad one. In that, Hardin concentrates power through a loveless marriage, which then pushes him to the Darksphere, and then world domination.

Anyway, I like this idea. I was disappointed, for instance, that every route of Three Houses ended with the unification of Fodlan - without ever really making a case for it as an inherent good. Maybe one could've ended with the three nations, and their respective legacies and histories, still intact? Or an ending where the Professor gets fired, and sent to horny jail, for their conduct toward their students.

[Interdimensional Observer]

57 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Anyway, I like this idea. I was disappointed, for instance, that every route of Three Houses ended with the unification of Fodlan - without ever really making a case for it as an inherent good. Maybe one could've ended with the three nations, and their respective legacies and histories, still intact? Or an ending where the Professor gets fired, and sent to horny jail, for their conduct toward their students.

How about a super-early bad ending where you turn down the offer to work at the monastery saying “Yeah, I don’t want to put up with this s***.” and just leave the premises for a live as a vagabond mercenary elsewhere not caring what others think? Your irresistible magnetism means at your cool but shocking departure, Edelgard puts Rhea into a headlock armed with a dagger to the faced pinned to the ground when the latter tries to grab you for themselves. Dimitri response points a spear to Edelgard’s spine, Dimitri and puts his feet on her back, only for Claude is standing in front of all three, pointing an arrow ready to fire at Dimitri’s junk. Rhea has her one free arm stretched out preparing an Agnea’s Arrow to rip Claude to shreds. In minutes, the faculty and house members join in and the EDM dwellers come out for the fun too. This ending skips over the chaotic events that follow, showing you only a CG where the Monastery used to be, a few inches of its walls and the charred floors being all that’s left. Sothis stands over the ruins in lament from the total destruction that took less than a  day to occur, Byleth is nowhere in sight, because offscreen they told her most rudely “Get out of my head!”. Everybody died because you wouldn’t let any of them have you, and you don’t care.

 

*Ahem* What was I going to say again? Oh yes, unification. IRL, doesn’t unification sound like a nice idea on paper? Wouldn’t it be lovely if all the countries on Earth could be become one and the only passport would be the heart? Except, there is no guarantee of unity post-unification, regardless of whether the union resulted from peaceful or forceful means. And the new unified government best not favor any particular polity brought into the union, be that favoritism real or imaginary and found only in the minds of the various peoples. Biased government brings forth riots and instability. -I’m not advocating for Catalan/Scottish/Québécois independence, I rather like the idea on paper of fewer countries and increasing regional autonomy within those structures if they’d still be functional. What I am saying, is that good political unions are hard work, demanding lots of good civil service. You could use force, but that’s a last resort for “good” unions.

Oh, and 3H wouldn’t be the first debatable unification in FE. Mystery gives Marth the entire world outside of Khadein, and I suppose Dolhr and Pyrathi and the barbarian wilds. FE6 abolishes the marquess system of Lycia for King Roi. Gaiden of course brings two hitherto separate and quite different countries together. Jugdral has the Seliph-if-no-heirs unification that likely won’t happen outside of like Verdun on most playthroughs. And the Thracian peninsula is reunited despite disparities, but to be fair, they were one during the briefest reigns of Dainn and Njorun, and combined with the incessant warring without a union, is at least worth trying.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[Sooks]

31 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

*Ahem* What was I going to say again? Oh yes, unification. IRL, doesn’t unification sound like a nice idea on paper? Wouldn’t it be lovely if all the countries on Earth could be become one and the only passport would be the heart? Except, there is no guarantee of unity post-unification, regardless of whether the union resulted from peaceful or forceful means. And the new unified government best not favor any particular polity brought into the union, be that favoritism real or imaginary and found only in the minds of the various peoples. Biased government brings forth riots and instability. -I’m not advocating for Catalan/Scottish/Québécois independence, I rather like the idea on paper of fewer countries and increasing regional autonomy within those structures if they’d still be functional. What I am saying, is that good political unions are hard work, demanding lots of good civil service. You could use force, but that’s a last resort for “good” unions.

That’s the big one, especially since the Kingdom was formed by breaking off from the Empire, and the Alliance did the same from the Kingdom. The Kingdom and the Empire specifically went to war over the Kingdom leaving. 

[Acacia Sgt]

Well, that's the beauty of works of fiction. Where we can explore such situations where they can work with less hassles. Maybe in some cases even, can be something of a lesson of what we could strive for.

55 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Mystery gives Marth the entire world outside of Khadein, and I suppose Dolhr and Pyrathi and the barbarian wilds.

I'm pretty sure Dolhr and Pyrathi ceased to be and their lands simply got annexed by default.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[ping]

59 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

FE6 abolishes the marquess system of Lycia for King Roi.

Queen Lylyna, to be pedantic. It's presented as a joint effort between her and Roy if you get their A support, but if you don't, then only her ending mentions the Kingdom of Lycia.

The "Well ackshually" aside, I agree with your post. Continent-spanning empires have had rather mixed success. We had Rome, sure, but how long did the Empires of Alexander, Genghis, or Timur hold together after their conquer-happy founders died?

[Shrimpica]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:39 AM, Sooks said:

That’s a nice idea in theory but it goes against the gameplay. We’re winning all these battles, otherwise we’re not progressing, so why should we lose the war? I know there’s that old saying in all, but when it’s a video game....

here's an idea: what if us losing a certain map 'opens' a small bad end route?

I for one like the whole bad endings idea myself, but it has to be done very well for people to accept it. Like Visual Novels.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Shrimperor

[Acacia Sgt]

To be fair, that's what the DB chapters of RD Part 3 boiled down to. You're "winning" the maps, but losing the war.

That said, I do am not much of a fan of such story progression. In fact, I think it's also kinda worse the way RD did it, since you're also in control of reversing what little progress you did by playing as the other side.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[joevar]

19 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

How about a super-early bad ending where you turn down the offer to work at the monastery saying “Yeah, I don’t want to put up with this s***.” and just leave the premises for a live as a vagabond mercenary elsewhere not caring what others think?

thats a bit extreme for JRPG style like FE i think. but i already play games where something like it happen in DnD-esque RPG. (sommething like early ending, like "F* off, i dont wanna in with your mess" )

19 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

FE6 abolishes the marquess system of Lycia for King Roi.

basically become UK ? or something like gaiden/sov alm and celica which have their own territory then merge

20 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Maybe one could've ended with the three nations, and their respective legacies and histories, still intact?

its sad that one of big power must be eradicated to have peace in most FE.
err, im not sad about the fate of the governing body, but more to the peasant living inside the losing territory (if theres any left that is).

18 hours ago, ping said:

he "Well ackshually" aside, I agree with your post. Continent-spanning empires have had rather mixed success. We had Rome, sure, but how long did the Empires of Alexander, Genghis, or Timur hold together after their conquer-happy founders died?

its a success imo. we just feel like that (towards monarchy mostly in discussion)because we already live way past their prime time. imagine if you live in middle of it. they already survive for centuries, thats success enough, at least for those centuries

in another perspective even this democratic phase is not the best, some people just thought its like that because its still in growing phase and because we just havent seen it collapse as a whole yet

Edited January 4, 2021 by joevar

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, joevar said:

basically become UK ? or something like gaiden/sov alm and celica which have their own territory then merge

We don’t know the details since it’s brought up only in passing in the FE6’s ending. What it means that the Lycia Alliance which gave way to the Kingdom of Lycia, would likely include the new monarch taking power away from the marquesses, in favor of more centralized and organized administration. Contrary to my lazily put statement earlier, the marquesses would have a very high likelihood of enduring, for the sake of having a body of experienced nobility to pull government officials from and maintaining a continuation with the government of old.

It’s not as unifying an action as the other examples in FE, given it incorporates no new territory and the polity already existed. But it is still a movement away from multiple centers of authority to one. A hypothesized but unstated cause for the transition from aristocracy to monarchy be the treasonous failures of the Lycian Alliance in Zephiel’s war. Defense against foreign invasions is one of the fundamental duties of government since time immemorial, that could bring reform to the forefront politics if the country survives. Removing some of the autonomy of the marquesses and granting a monarch incontestable power in matters of war could better defend the realm. Laus, the twice-traitor as FE7 would add, wished to see Lycia ruled strongly by one, ironically, it may have gotten some of its wish, but it was not they who would lead it.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[Acacia Sgt]

It could be seen as just formalizing the system. For an alliance of territories, you still had a head leader: Ostia (except for that brief time Pherae took charge because Lilina joined the Lycian Alliance Army). The individual marquesses still had most autonomy over their own lands, but still deferred to Ostia.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It could be seen as just formalizing the system. For an alliance of territories, you still had a head leader: Ostia (except for that brief time Pherae took charge because Lilina joined the Lycian Alliance Army). The individual marquesses still had most autonomy over their own lands, but still deferred to Ostia.

Fair, perhaps I was making it more dramatic than it actually was, we haven't a clue. I'm wholly aware of monarchies with stubbornly strong nobilities (the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Habsburg Empire and those "Damn I'm the Emperor Why Can't I Hang Them All!?!" Hungarian Magyars).

Although, the way I spoke of it has given me fanfic ideas that Lilina knowingly let the Lycia Alliance collapse when Zephiel invaded so she could establish a strong monarchy after the crisis was over. Her father, may his soul find peace, was recognized as potentially having to pay the price according to this plan, as was true thousands of other Lycians, but it would be for the ironclad protection of many generations of future Lycians to be. Thus, she regrets it not the slightest.🙂

Edited January 4, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[Acacia Sgt]

Yeaaaaaaah.... no. Pardon if I say this in advance, but I don't think I'll ever read that if you ever write it.

That said, I do agree on the notion that as we know of at least three cases of people ready to bend the knee and submit to Bernese rule (Eric, Wagner, Leygance), it would influence Lilina to centralize more the power of the Alliance. Granted, one could make the case they were seeking the Alliance's survival by turning it into a tributary state than to have even further bloodshed and destruction, specially after what happened at Araphen. Maybe Zephiel banked on that, otherwise why retreat? Considering we know there were those in Sacae and Ilia who also submitted themselves to Bernese rule, it was likely an expectation Lycia would follow.

[ping]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Although, the way I spoke of it has given me fanfic ideas that Lilina knowingly let the Lycia Alliance collapse when Zephiel invaded so she could establish a strong monarchy after the crisis was over. Her father, may his soul find peace, was recognized as potentially having to pay the price according to this plan, as was true thousands of other Lycians, but it would be for the ironclad protection of many generations of future Lycians to be. Thus, she regrets it not the slightest.🙂

If it was Shiida, or Lilina was closer to her predecessor in this regard, I could mayyyybe see it. I always read Shiida as much more calculating than she tries to let on, but in Lilina's case, I never spotted a tell that she might not be as idealistic as appears. Which might of course mean that she's even better at acting naive than Shiida is.

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeaaaaaaah.... no. Pardon if I say this in advance, but I don't think I'll ever read that if you ever write it.

As I seriously write beyond a threadbare sketch next to absolutely nothing, you don't ever have to.😄

Not to mention, I'd have to decide whether to prioritize this or Genealogy of the Holy War Generation 3.5. Gen 2 after defeating Loptous, ushered in a golden age for Jugdral, most of it is gone now, barring a few elderly hanger-ons, like Caipre (who shall be smothered with a pillow dead at some point). Gen 3 has grown up and had Gen 4 children of their own, most of which are at or approach adulthood. Gen 3 began as a continuation of the prosperity of Gen 2, and Gen 4 appears as thought it would yet continue the unceasing harmony and good fortune of the continent. And yet, peel back the surface, and Gen 3 has been... corrupted. Where did things go wrong? Who knows. But, know that the many members of the heavily intermarried ruling families of the kingdoms and Grannvalian dukedoms, are all in it for themselves and themselves alone. Holy blood shall be spilled for unholy gain, nowhere from Marpha to Ganeishire will be safe.

And no, I never read ASOIAF, nor watched its inferior television show, nor a single other dark fantasy novel nor program. Not interested. This is all but a superficial jesting idea based upon how with proper breeding of the 2nd Gen and intermarriage among its members, you can end up with some quite intermixed ruling families with every pairing having a stake in two or four realms. What if that led to chaos? Sure you can cry "But the Salic law!" yet silly things like that didn't stop the English from trying.

 

2 hours ago, ping said:

If it was Shiida, or Lilina was closer to her predecessor in this regard, I could mayyyybe see it. I always read Shiida as much more calculating than she tries to let on, but in Lilina's case, I never spotted a tell that she might not be as idealistic as appears. Which might of course mean that she's even better at acting naive than Shiida is.

I already have fanficted Roy's ability to support a female from every country except Bern (counting Larum as Western Isles, and he develops a pleasant relationship with Guinevere the princess and future queen in the plot) as leading to him to later wed Lilina and have secret affairs with the rest to establish "Elibe in one family".

Now that I think about it, it's boring and unfair to Hector's daughter to leave her oblivious to Roy's scheming. What if instead, as Roy in his underwear eagerly is about to pull back the curtain, jump onto the marriage bed and consummate his primary power base, Lilina sits legs crossed with blackmail material right upon her lap? Hahaha! He'll be in humiliating shock to discover she wasn't the kind and sweet ditz he always thought she was. But, after she explains how killing him is entirely contradictory to everything she has been working towards and she lets him explain his boyish dreams of world conquest through dynastic puppeteering, any want to call the guards (which Lilina controls more than a few of anyhow as she said) and withdraw from the bedroom will go away. Instead, discovering that she is the equal to his mind and ambition will bring them both to new heights of ecstasy, and so they'll wholeheartedly agree to unite in those late hours to form the greatest power couple in the entire history of Elibe! Justinian and Theodora? Those Byzantine lovebirds will find their purple majesty a faint shade of lavender by comparison.

...And this is where I'll stop. It's as far I can write something like this. I find Roy and Lilina as leaning towards too ordinary, so jokingly, imagining that two of the purest main characters in FE are in truth the most diabolical, provides a pleasantly entertaining sharp contrast. 

[joevar]

11 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Her father, may his soul find peace, was recognized as potentially having to pay the price according to this plan, as was true thousands of other Lycians, but it would be for the ironclad protection of many generations of future Lycians to be. Thus, she regrets it not the slightest.

fanfic that i dont want to accept since it assume she legitimize "sacrifice" in her head, but still funny since in vanilla game, lilina says she is "already prepared for this situation" 😏 . but no..

 

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

"Elibe in one family".

......)

what even...

i hope the Binding Blade will become sentient and kill them before it happen instead

[scigeek101]

On 1/4/2021 at 1:02 AM, Acacia Sgt said:

I'm pretty sure Dolhr and Pyrathi ceased to be and their lands simply got annexed by default.

Pyrathi Marth came in and killed their king as he passed through. I figure the region is so unimportant it's not mentioned at all in FE3 or FE12 I don't think. My guess is it would just get annexed by Akenia. 

Dolhr is it even a kingdom in the traditional sense? In game it seems to basically just be dragon land. Are there any humans living there who weren't just slaves? I figure it just became abandoned wild lands mostly. In Awakening it seems to mostly just be a desert. Maybe it got scorched during the "schism" or whatever it was that split Star Lord Marths Divine empire. 

 

I'm still of the mind that the events of FE3 and FE12 are propaganda written by Marth's regime after he conquered the world. The plots of those have always rubbed me the wrong way. .

 

[scigeek101]

I really like Shadow Dragon. I think it is one of the best Fire Emblem games overall. It's probably the most replayable. 

 

The common criticisms of the game are valid, but I don't think they really matter in a game that gives you unlimited reclassing. 6 difficulties. And a smart interface with really quick gameplay. Other Fire Emblem games feel like they take forever sometimes but I can do a playthrough of Shadow Dragon in like a week and then do another one completely different than my first.

Then again I'm one of those crazy people who liked the support system in Radiant Dawn as the pinnacle of the fire emblem support system. I can support anyone with anyone? Yes please. No support conversations? Who cares? More time to polish up the main script and have dialogue important to the (admittingly weak) plot. 

I really don't like the GBA support systems. Anything that requires me to have units stand next to each other to gain the support levels detracts from my tactical plan for the maps. Tellius was far superior in this regard. 

Awakening support growth was OK I guess since pair up was going to be used anyway so.......

Fates pair up was greatly improved from a tactical standpoint thankfully but I feel like it's actually worse than Awakening in practice because the game is somehow less fun? It's weird. I really want to like fates because on paper it's amazing but something about the whole game just feels off. 

I really hate a lot about Awakening and I think it's one of the worst games in the series but I probably put more time into it than any other Fire Emblem game just because despite being a really bad Fire Emblem. It's a pretty fun game to again, go through quickly and try different units and classes. Three houses would top it for me in the fun factor easily if it weren't for all the tedious monestaty stuff. I wish they'd have done the zoomed out quick interface more like my castle there. Or even the menu conversations. The monestary is fun to wander around at first but for an aspect of the game that I've seen get much praise from the mainstream it really felt underwhelming to me. I was expecting something more like Animal Crossing X Fire Emblem which I think strangely enough I could get into. 

 

 

 

 

[ping]

12 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I already have fanficted Roy's ability to support a female from every country except Bern (counting Larum as Western Isles, and he develops a pleasant relationship with Guinevere the princess and future queen in the plot) as leading to him to later wed Lilina and have secret affairs with the rest to establish "Elibe in one family".

Alles Elibe ist Pherae Untertan?

They'd have to get Bors's strong chin genes into the family for maximal similarity, though.

[Acacia Sgt]

6 hours ago, scigeek101 said:

Pyrathi Marth came in and killed their king as he passed through. I figure the region is so unimportant it's not mentioned at all in FE3 or FE12 I don't think. My guess is it would just get annexed by Akenia. 

Dolhr is it even a kingdom in the traditional sense? In game it seems to basically just be dragon land. Are there any humans living there who weren't just slaves? I figure it just became abandoned wild lands mostly. In Awakening it seems to mostly just be a desert. Maybe it got scorched during the "schism" or whatever it was that split Star Lord Marths Divine empire. 

More like Mannu put him between a rock and a hard place, since Marth was on the run from the main Grustian Force, then Mannu took his approach as him bringing the war to Pyrathi (a legit fear), but instead of just turning Marth away he decided to attack them. Ultimately, since that's just about the only relevancy Pyrathi has in the grand history of Archanea... yeah, seems very likely Archanea just took over after the fact.

Medeus stablished Dolhr as a proper country, yes. In fact, it was after his first demise that the humans took over and created Macedon. Except for Archanea and Dolhr, and maybe Pyrathi, no other country is even a hundred years old. Not sure they'd be quite slaves. More like already indoctrinated to be second-class citizens under Manakete rule. Though maybe not at first, since it took time for Medeus to just create a country for Manaketes to live, to wanting to wage war against humanity for their mistreatment of Manaketes.

Yes, it's likely  that the desertification was most likely thanks to Grima.

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

More like Mannu put him between a rock and a hard place, since Marth was on the run from the main Grustian Force, then Mannu took his approach as him bringing the war to Pyrathi (a legit fear), but instead of just turning Marth away he decided to attack them.

I think attacking sends a pretty clear message of turning them away. Marth doesn't have the right to react to them defending their border by conquering the entire country.

[Acacia Sgt]

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think attacking sends a pretty clear message of turning them away. Marth doesn't have the right to react to them defending their border by conquering the entire country.

On the contrary, it invites the chance of reprisal, which did happened as Marth chose self-defense against Pyrathi's smaller army over being thrown back to the larger Grustian Force.

True. That's where the games' minimalist approach hurt it. Or that of the areas SD chose to flesh out, this chapter wasn't one of them. We don't even get to see Marth's reaction to Mannu's hostility. There's myriad of reasons that could justify, or at least explain, why the chapter had to develop that way other than having to turn it into an actual "beat army and boss, then seize" process for the sake of the gameplay.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

On the contrary, it invites the chance of reprisal, which did happened as Marth chose self-defense against Pyrathi's smaller army over being thrown back to the larger Grustian Force.

Marth chose the needs of his people over that of the innocents of Pyrathi, which is basically how any immoral action is rationalized. Even in the most uncharitable situation where Marth kindly asked and Mannu responded with an attack without any response (something the kind doesn't actually imply, closest the game suggests is zero communication), Marth still doesn't have the right to go deeper into the country and assassinate its kind.

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

True. That's where the games' minimalist approach hurt it. Or that of the areas SD chose to flesh out, this chapter wasn't one of them. We don't even get to see Marth's reaction to Mannu's hostility. There's myriad of reasons that could justify, or at least explain, why the chapter had to develop that way other than having to turn it into an actual "beat army and boss, then seize" process for the sake of the gameplay.

It's even worse in Shadow Dragon where they some how manage to mess up the positioning of Port Warren on the world map, which implies Marth sailed directly to Pyrathi instead of seeking safe haven in Talys again, which is actually closer to the retconned Port Warren position. In the NES and SNES Marth walks into Pyrathi.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Marth chose the needs of his people over that of the innocents of Pyrathi, which is basically how any immoral action is rationalized. Even in the most uncharitable situation where Marth kindly asked and Mannu responded with an attack without any response (something the kind doesn't actually imply, closest the game suggests is zero communication), Marth still doesn't have the right to go deeper into the country and assassinate its kind.

It's even worse in Shadow Dragon where they some how manage to mess up the positioning of Port Warren on the world map, which implies Marth sailed directly to Pyrathi instead of seeking safe haven in Talys again, which is actually closer to the retconned Port Warren position. In the NES and SNES Marth walks into Pyrathi.

The soldiers are hardly innocent here if they went with their king's orders. Unless they feared any reprisal from Mannu. And it depends if they knew he was a Manakete. Village dialogues indicates quite the number of people of Pyrathi didn't knew. Again, we don't get to see Marth's side of the story.

In the story, Marth still walks into Pyrathi. It's clear someone messed up, and that shouldn't be taken as a sign that things got retconned. Mistakes can just be mistakes, not retcons.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The soldiers are hardly innocent here if they went with their king's orders. Unless they feared any reprisal from Mannu. And it depends if they knew he was a Manakete. Village dialogues indicates quite the number of people of Pyrathi didn't knew. Again, we don't get to see Marth's side of the story.

In the story, Marth still walks into Pyrathi. It's clear someone messed up, and that shouldn't be taken as a sign that things got retconned. Mistakes can just be mistakes, not retcons.

The soldiers are defending their border from trespassers. Maybe you can say they're in the wrong if you take it they launched a preemptive strike against Marth at the border before he entered (which the game does not suggest is the case), but Marth's reaction then should be leave, knowing they're not wanted. Once Marth crosses that border and starts fighting with a nation that only wants to be left alone and has no designs on war, he is in the wrong and the soldiers are in the right for trying to expel him. Mannu being or not being a manakete doesn't make much difference unless one wants to be racist about the whole affair, which is probably what they were banking on in ye old NES days for the logic of the chapter, Marth is in the right because he's the hero and Mannu is in the wrong because he's a big scary dragon. No expectation people would delve into the ethics of it beyond that.

[Acacia Sgt]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The soldiers are defending their border from trespassers. Maybe you can say they're in the wrong if you take it they launched a preemptive strike against Marth at the border before he entered (which the game does not suggest is the case), but Marth's reaction then should be leave, knowing they're not wanted. Once Marth crosses that border and starts fighting with a nation that only wants to be left alone and has no designs on war, he is in the wrong and the soldiers are in the right for trying to expel him. Mannu being or not being a manakete doesn't make much difference unless one wants to be racist about the whole affair, which is probably what they were banking on in ye old NES days for the logic of the chapter, Marth is in the right because he's the hero and Mannu is in the wrong because he's a big scary dragon. No expectation people would delve into the ethics of it beyond that.

Maybe not outright suggest, but Marth was still in the island with the Archanean castle, so that island was still Archanean soil. So sending forces to attack him while he has yet to set foot on Pyrathi only makes Mannu look even more bad.

Leave where? Back to Archanea where the big Grustian Force was incoming at him? The whole point of fleeing to Pyrathi was to get away from them. If you're going to blame anyone, blame Malledus for having suggested they leave Warren and use the castle for a better defensive position. Since then it forced them to only have Pyrathi as their only venue of retreat.

It makes a difference in the sense that if Mannu was just another human, his army would not have much to fear to go against his orders to avoid get tangled with the war. Because again, it's much easier to throw Marth to the wolves by telling him they prefer to not have their neutrality violated and thus entry to Pyrathi is barred; than to use force thus forcing Marth to fight on self-defense since he is trying to avoid having his army wiped out by the main Grustian Force. Being a Manakete, however, his dragon form could easily intimidate them into submission. Gameplay aside, dragons are meant to be tough to kill. One could say that's how he became king of the island in the first place, but then there's the fact most of the people don't know he's a Manakete. Unless it happened long ago the people who saw him transform have mostly died so the newer generations only have the stories that he did, but no longer being clear enough to think of them as true.

Ultimately, one shouldn't pass judgement on the chapter since we simply don't have the full picture.

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Acacia Sgt