Fate/Grand Order General

[QKumber]

32 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

1.7 x 7 is 10. Assuming Tamamo get to use 3 Arts chain with her own 3rd arts, she would get 90%, so really its not perfectly enough to get NP consistently. An NP prop IS required for TamamoComp whether its CasGil(Kings Return Crits) or Waver

between skill usages + CE bonus (I personally enjoy running Prisma Cosmos on Casko) I think Tamamo having her NP every 3 turns is reasonable enough

 

34 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

I'm of the opinion that Tamamo is an OP Caster, but her vs Waver is very much a Chicken Egg situation that is slanted on Waver(Tamamo would be MUCH worse as a whole if Waver doesn't exists, arguably around 60% of her value lost right there. Waver without Tamamo is definitively worse, but only in so far as its a loss of 1 possible comp out of 90)

It is like you said earlier, you have to see the unit inside a TEAM composition... by herself Tamamo isn`t super broken, but inside a decent team? She works wonders.

I would recommend trying something like Tamamo + David + Bride... it is a rather fun and sturdy comp! 3 def buffs / heals / party evade / def break + np seal. And lots of blue cards :D

Anyway, I am just an NA pleb slowly learning how the game works, and if I enjoy running Tamamo on my teams, I`ll keep doing that =p

Have fun guys!

ps: LuxSpes, welcome! If you still want some suggestions mine would be: check the servants that are available (and in the near future if you play on NA land), pick some that you fancy - and try to roll for those.

I 200% recommend playing with your favorite units! Makes the game much more enjoyable

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

54 minutes ago, The Priest said:

Unless I'm calculating something wrong even at max. rank Bloodbath Carmilla doesn't reach Jack's level in terms of Star gen (assuming QQQ+E). Unless you mean Jack's Star gen is excessive which I would agree with.
Same for NP damage. Jack has a pretty hefty Quick booster and the bonus damage against females carries over so she should deal way more damage, no?

I mean I would argue that Carmilla might be even better than her if we take meme wizard into account. Her skillset makes Carmilla more versatile but I wouldn't call her 80% Jack considering that one's use is a straight railroad to Crit mania and dead women.

Didn't disagree with the Stun applications but in case of Waver it's not exactly reliable compared to cooldown reduction which always works.
That was kinda my point but that doesn't make Waver more important for Arts team than Tamamo. There are replacements for him (e.g. Caster Gil, Helena) but replacing her is much harder.

I dont assume QQQE. QQQ is a 1 time only that requires the card to align, and the instant it become say AQQ EX it become avg down-aproximate 20 vs 35 or 25/40. Mana Burst took that to close to consistent 50s. Lasts for 1 turn on a roughly 3 turn CD

Whereas Carmila QQQ is like 30 with Bath, lasting a turn and then 10 for the following turn. The overall points is as crazy as Jack star gen are, its tied to attacking. Innocent Monsters could just pop and get 10 for 3 which is very good. The comparison in mind that bears resemblance to this? Saberlot vs Okita. Okita NPQQ murderstomp Saberlot but Saberlot star gen is 35 out of nowhere followed by 15 the next turns. If i want a star supplier(read: star gen) to fuel my dps on purpose, i pick Saberlot

 

That said Carmilla atm is a struggling comparison to Shiki, but not after buff since for some reason she get 2 good buff and an unrestricted Interlude(unlike Jack) to complement her broken parameter

 

Replacement for Tamamo on what kind? If its functional comp, theres a lot, far more than Waver in my opinion. Taunters and Jeanne for their turn buying shenanigans, recycling from Bride.  The closest there ever was for a true replacement for Waver is SuperMansh whose 20% prop is single at 7 CD, need to reach and fill NP for wavers OP buff that you just press on reasonable CD, offensive buff is just 30 to Waver 95. Helena CD is straight up horrendous to Waver 5 for 30 prop, 6 for 20 teamwide prop and her offense buff is MUCH lower. Chiron didnt prop nor does he have def buff

Theres situational shit like Gorgon where Tamamo(s) is unquestionably better than Waver but yeah

Neither are more important but in situation where i want to stall before bringing Tamamo in, id rather have Waver upfront than Tamamo since the reason why i want Tamamo to begin with is to use Waver as often as possible. Merlin can replace either but lolmerlin  

Basically 50% prop is broken. 20% teamwide prop is broken. 240% damage buff is broken. And especially 30% def buff is ridiculous. All of this in one servant is really what makes Arts comp. I always considered Arts comp as a comp made to spam Waver as much as possible and at least 2 of their strongest variant flat out dont work without Waver.

 

39 minutes ago, QKumber said:

between skill usages + CE bonus (I personally enjoy running Prisma Cosmos on Casko) I think Tamamo having her NP every 3 turns is reasonable enough

 

It is like you said earlier, you have to see the unit inside a TEAM composition... by herself Tamamo isn`t super broken, but inside a decent team? She works wonders.

I would recommend trying something like Tamamo + David + Bride... it is a rather fun and sturdy comp! 3 def buffs / heals / party evade / def break + np seal. And lots of blue cards :D

Anyway, I am just an NA pleb slowly learning how the game works, and if I enjoy running Tamamo on my teams, I`ll keep doing that =p

Have fun guys!

ps: LuxSpes, welcome! If you still want some suggestions mine would be: check the servants that are available (and in the near future if you play on NA land), pick some that you fancy - and try to roll for those.

I 200% recommend playing with your favorite units! Makes the game much more enjoyable

Thats true yes, outside 2 very specific exception every unit should be seen based on teamcomp. 

[Alexmender]

All this talk about Waver vs Tamamo while I have neither of them don't worry Helena, we don't need those broken mages to survive, you're more than good enough for me

 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

29 minutes ago, Alexmender said:

All this talk about Waver vs Tamamo while I have neither of them don't worry Helena, we don't need those broken mages to survive, you're more than good enough for me

 

We overwork the old man and the fox so the yung uns can be left behind

the sad thing is we can't justify that for Helena since she's a granny

[DehNutCase]

1 hour ago, The Priest said:

Unless I'm calculating something wrong even at max. rank Bloodbath Carmilla doesn't reach Jack's level in terms of Star gen (assuming QQQ+E). Unless you mean Jack's Star gen is excessive which I would agree with.
Same for NP damage. Jack has a pretty hefty Quick booster and the bonus damage against females carries over so she should deal way more damage, no?

Carmilla's NP gives a 3 turn 20% Atk buff, her NP is actually pretty busted, all things considered---50% damage vs. females, 2k hp heal, and the Atk buff. Not to mention a Buster NP means that you lead the NP brave chain with a buster card, unlike Jack, who has to lead with a quick. If it's a NPQQ chain then the damage ends up about the same---a quick brave chain has the extra card dealing more damage than a normal brave chain---but with anything else Carmilla's buster lead means her cards hit harder.

 

And, like Jack, her low hitcount arts (1 hit) and high hit count quick (2 hits) means that they both gain NP gauge stupidly fast, thanks to triple quick deck. 2Q/1A is a bit worse than 5Q/2A, but she has bloodsucker to make up for that.

 

Like you said, though, even with bloodsucker her star gen will never reach Jack's levels, but that's why Carmilla is Jack at 80% rather than Jack at 110% or whatever.

1 hour ago, The Priest said:

Didn't disagree with the Stun applications but in case of Waver it's not exactly reliable compared to cooldown reduction which always works.
That was kinda my point but that doesn't make Waver more important for Arts team than Tamamo. There are replacements for him (e.g. Caster Gil, Helena) but replacing her is much harder.

The reason you can't replace Tamamo in Arts teams is actually pretty simple:

An Arts team without Tamamo isn't an Arts team, it's just a bunch of Arts NP servants being supported by Waver and the like. In other words, a generic team that happened to have a bunch of arts NPs in it.

 

Like, let's say we're running Summer!Artoria/Tamamo/Waver as our team. Replace that Tamamo with Merlin and what you have isn't an Arts team, it's just an amazing damage dealer being supported by two amazing supports. It could quite easily perform better than the Tamamo version, but you can't call it an Arts team because the damage cards being Arts cards doesn't actually mean anything. Summer!Artoria could just as easily be, say, Jack the Ripper and everything would play out about the same.

 

 

Regarding the stun v. CD reduction thing---CD reduction on an NP isn't always reliable either. It does nothing if you use it when something it on 1cd. Waver will often have this issue if you're using him with Tamamo, his crit is on a 5CD versus 6CD for his other two skills. Rider Artoria Alter and the MC don't have that problem, of course, but we're talking about Tamamo.

 

And regarding the whole: "No other servant accelerates your NP like [Tamamo] does"

 

You do know Waver's skills give NP Gauge, right? 10% for the whole team on both AoE buffs, 30% for his crit. That's basically 30% for everyone or so every 6 turns. Like I said, it would have been a fair trade to trade everything Tamamo has for everything Waver has...if Waver didn't charge NP gauge.

[MrSmokestack]

@The Priest JSND mentioned this already, but Carmilla after her buffs is much more comparable to Jack.

Carmilla QQQ with Bloodbath doesn’t generate a ridiculous amount of stars like Jack QQQ does, but the former’s star generation is far more consistent. You will always get those 10 stars regardless of your other cards.

Carmilla and Jack’s damage bonuses are also slightly different. Carmilla has an effective vs female modifier (a la Robin Hood’s poison) while Jack has a situational damage up vs female (like Scathach’s Anti-Divine). Currently, Carmilla’s modifier is unusually weak—120% as opposed to the usual 150%—but a later strengthen quest will bring it up to that level. It also brings her NP from 600% to 800%, making her damage much higher overall.

Factor in Carmilla’s busted NP gain, and the comparison makes more sense. Between the two, I can easily find myself preferring Carmilla due to her lower cost and better availability.

[Shiki]

49 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Taunters and Jeanne for their turn buying shenanigans, recycling from Bride.

You still have a lot of downtime on your buffs though and you're just stacking Atk buffs over the other. Jeanne kinda sucks without being able to spam her NP which she can't really do without Tamamo.

49 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

The closest there ever was for a true replacement for Waver is SuperMansh whose 20% prop is single at 7 CD, need to reach and fill NP for wavers OP buff that you just press on reasonable CD, offensive buff is just 30 to Waver 95. Helena CD is straight up horrendous to Waver 5 for 30 prop, 6 for 20 teamwide prop and her offense buff is MUCH lower.

Yet they are close enough. In case of Mash you trade NP charge for higher defense buffs and having someone with Taunt. Yes, you lose the NP charge from Waver's skills but that's the point; there is currently no other Servant that can replicate the efficiency that he gets from Tamamo. She on the other has inferior but similar options like Mash to replace the hole.

In the end this entire argument is silly because either are losing a lot if we take the other out of the equation. It's obvious that Zhuge Liang by himself is better or more suited for more teams but Tamamo is entirely unique in her role and is one of the reason why he gets this huge increase of efficiency. But imo this also applies to your DPS of choice and I would still attribute her being the one giving Arts team meaning while Zhuge Liang manages to cover the holes perfectly.

Edited July 4, 2018 by The Priest

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

18 minutes ago, The Priest said:

You still have a lot of downtime on your buffs though and you're just stacking Atk buffs over the other. Jeanne kinda sucks without being able to spam her NP which she can't really do without Tamamo.

Yet they are close enough. In case of Mash you trade NP charge for higher defense buffs and having someone with Taunt. Yes, you lose the NP charge from Waver's skills but that's the point; there is currently no other Servant that can replicate the efficiency that he gets from Tamamo. She on the other has inferior but similar options like Mash to replace the hole.

In the end this entire argument is silly because either are losing a lot if we take the other out of the equation. It's obvious that Zhuge Liang by himself is better or more suited for more teams but Tamamo is entirely unique in her role and is one of the reason why he gets this huge increase of efficiency. But imo this also applies to your DPS of choice and I would still attribute her being the one giving Arts team meaning while Zhuge Liang manages to cover the holes perfectly.

K only refuting the one on top

D.R. isn't really as bad as it seems

 

WaverTama is 1.95 vs Waver Bride 1.75 for a net 10% damage loss.  Granted WaverTamaBasic is 2.7 whereas WaverBrideBasic which is 2.25 which is where it started showing, but most 2 servant combo actually isn't as bad in terms of DR

[Shiki]

7 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

You do know Waver's skills give NP Gauge, right? 10% for the whole team on both AoE buffs, 30% for his crit. That's basically 30% for everyone or so every 6 turns. Like I said, it would have been a fair trade to trade everything Tamamo has for everything Waver has...if Waver didn't charge NP gauge.

Tamamo's tied to her NP and it scales with Overcharge (which is one of the better ones btw.). Using her NP happens more frequent than using his skills in such teams.
You're also forgetting that Fox's Wedding also indirectly boosts NP gain.

7 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Regarding the stun v. CD reduction thing---CD reduction on an NP isn't always reliable either.

You can at least expect it to do something when you need it unlike that 50% stun which doesn't even factor stuff like MR to make it even worse. Zhuge Liang's stun doesn't give him the same utility as Tamamo's cooldown reduction. It's a bonus that his NP has but it's not something you should rely on.

---

Finished with Camelot. This was really good and far outstrips the other singularities in ... pretty much everything. Story, characters, lore stuff, it had it all and there is little to complain about.

Spoiler

... what was so difficult about the last fight? You get a maxed out Bedivere and even Mash received her NP upgrade before the fight. Unless you didn't train Mash (in which case screw you) this is an easy duo clear.

But considering this is her moment to shine I let Mordred have the first Artoria fight all for herself. Needless to say that was a very dead king right there (though she was maxed out besides Instinct).
Also let Euryale try the last Gawain fight to see how much she destroys him. Unfortunately the Charm didn't stick as often as it should which meant she actually died pretty early on. But as a wise man once said; never bring a sword in a gun fight.

I kinda wish we get a feature that allows us to replay story fights. Maybe et them cost 0 AP but don't let them drop anything and you don't receive Bond points, Exp etc. Just for your own enjoyment.

Btw. what happened to Hundred-Face and Serenity? Are they dead? Unless I missed it, after they lost to Tristan these two are never mentioned again but they didn't seem to have disappeared.

Now to wait until Anniversary for that sweet 3x success (to get it only on the last EXP round) and half AP dailies. I still have to max out Bedivere, Caesar, Shakespeare, Mozart and Lu Bu, plus I need Blue Rider gems.

Edited July 4, 2018 by The Priest

[Jingle Jangle]

I have completed Camelot, it was pretty easy due to my friend list has hard counter to the difficult bosses. Story wise this was my favorite due to all of the characters highlights and pacing. Bedivere might be one of my favorite servants.

[MacLovin]

18 hours ago, LuxSpes said:

So I decided to jump into this game out of curiosity, but I pretty much know zilch about the game and my Gacha knowledge starts and ends with FEH. I do know the basics from the tutorial, but more tips would be appreciated. 

And from FEH, I know getting a good start with your first pulls can really help further down the road and as such had question regarding what I got from mine. Aside from the tutorial pull, I played enough to do another full one and was wondering if what I got was worth keeping or if I'm better off re-rolling and if that's the case, what should I look for in my re-rolls. 

Tutorial Pull :

  Hide contents

-Stheno
-Fergus mac Roich
-Romulus
-Hermitage
-Demon Boar
-Mooncell Automaton
-Robin Hood
-The Crimson Black Keys
-Primeval Curse
-Carmilla

Second Pull :

  Hide contents

-Origin Bullet x3
-Storch Ritter
-David
-Covering Fire
-Ushiwakaru x2
-Jeweled Sword Zelretch
-Nitocris

 

• Carmila and Nitocris should be good enough for early stuff since you tend to run into more assassin/rider bosses. 
• David/Ushiwakamaru/Robin/Fergus are also good for DPS/Support.  Romulus is a fun AoE farmer, but idk how he does as a plain dps tho.
• Stheno's got an upcoming third skill to be added with charisma (plus an additional boost to divine servants).

If you're going to reroll, the general recommended order goes like this iirc.

• Hercules
• Emiya
• Carmilla
• Liz/Martha
• Tamamo Cat/Marie
• d'Eon/Siegfried
• Stheno

The first three are the best DPS you can get from the tutorial. Emiya is still a bit of an investment since his buffs are not here yet. Though I'd totally say that getting one of the top three+one of the rest is the best you could do. (well as long as you don't overlap classes and are willing to do the insane number of rerolls to get it.)

Oh yeah btw @The Priest has a guide on the 1/2/3* servants that's updated with each release. 

also don't worry about CEs too much. You'll eventually get some stuff like MLB'd Dragons Meridian from the fp gacha soon enough.

 

13 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

You do know Waver's skills give NP Gauge, right? 10% for the whole team on both AoE buffs, 30% for his crit. That's basically 30% for everyone or so every 6 turns. Like I said, it would have been a fair trade to trade everything Tamamo has for everything Waver has...if Waver didn't charge NP gauge.

dude have a little consistency in your own arguments and stop comparing both of them for the same type of support

You're going all over the map defending waver and sandbagging tamamo without actually considering all the different playstyles and teamcomps. 

Waver is a generalist support, but still compliments Tamamo when in arts teams.

Tamamo is a primary arts team support that gets complimented by Waver, but still does well with other arts team supports like Mash/Jeanne/Nero Bride/etc.

Thing is, Waver's just kinda mindlessly easy to use and fits on every team comp. Tamamo requires and arts team comp. Primarily one that's got 2 supports and 1 dps. Hell running double Tamamos+DPS is a regular arts team comp. (People run double waver+dps too, so yeah)

 

You're trying to argue that tamamo isn't comparable to waver, but you also forget to consider that there are multiple playstyles and teamcomps beyond burst damage.  Some of the best budget DPS servants are arts based. Robin, Euryale,  and Assassin Shiki are decent on their own, but being on a team with tamamo lets them spam their noble phantasms more often, as well as use those skills sooner. Waver just compliments Tamamo+ (dps) even more by buffing, filling NP gauge, providing more arts cards, and having a massive debuffer of an NP. 

Even if we look at higher rarity arts dps, we still get some pretty ridiculous ones to consider. There's Nero, Nero Bride, Orion, Saber Shiki, Saberlot, Vlad III, Li Shu Wen, Nursery Rhyme, Nitocris, and Shuten Doji off the top of my head. While some of them are AoE spammers and others are STNP servants, they all have a heavy reliance on their skills for prime performance. (Well Vlad doesn't have that skill upgrade in NA yet.)

Tamamo takes a turn off their skill cooldowns, as well as np charge and a little healing. Waver compliments it with buffs and whatnot. Rinse and repeat every other turn with Waver-DPS-Tamamo for NP spam. Or you could replace Waver with Mash/Jeanne for more durability. Nero Bride could be slotted in for different buffs and an extra dps. Mozart/etc. can be brought in on the first NP row and slotted out after he uses his budget support skills, and etc.  Helena for np gauge boost and triple card buffs, etc.

But wait, there's more support options to compliment Tamamo if you so choose to, since she can work in arts comps and mixed-arts comps. Hans is basically mini-waver and Ozymandias is probably the best non-caster and non-limited support servant out of the SR/SSRs with his own NP gauge booster+buff chance increaser. This makes doing shit like Hans+dps+ozymandias->plugsuit Ozy for Tamamo completely workable for arts teams since it provides two charisma buffs, stars, and a crit damage buff as well.  There's a lot of support servants like Caesar or David or even Ushiwakamaru, but the point is that team comps are the main thing to deal with, not a servant's individual contributions to burst damage.

Part of the game is fiddling with team comps beyond meme teams with  Waver+dps+support/dps.  There's some fun with it. You mentioned being tired of seeing Cu Alter/Hercules in supports. Waver is pretty much the caster equivalent in the sheer ease of use. Tamamo requires a more specific team comp in arts-oriented teams. (and even then, Waver isn't totally necessary. He's just the best choice for complimenting tamamo in arts oriented offensive team comps.)

 

Plenty of servants give buffs. The number of servants that increase party np gauge has increased as well. But Tamamo's unique utility of having cooldown reduction on her NP on top of everything else she's got makes her uniquely suited to arts teams since that playstyle pretty much relies on the skills being off cooldown as often as possible. 

 

Oh yeah and I've had both Tamamo since my first week and Vlad since my first month. Among my first 3* servants to get raised to FA was Robin hood. I've got extensive use out of arts teams and find them to be very reliable due to the flexibility of them. There aren't a lot of servants that heal and provide card type buffs, let alone give cooldown reduction. She just makes every arts servant stronger. Double Tamamo+Euryale/Orion was the bread and butter of a shitload of people during raids since the damage was so stupidly high.

[DehNutCase]

7 hours ago, The Priest said:

Tamamo's tied to her NP and it scales with Overcharge (which is one of the better ones btw.). Using her NP happens more frequent than using his skills in such teams.
You're also forgetting that Fox's Wedding also indirectly boosts NP gain.

You can at least expect it to do something when you need it unlike that 50% stun which doesn't even factor stuff like MR to make it even worse. Zhuge Liang's stun doesn't give him the same utility as Tamamo's cooldown reduction. It's a bonus that his NP has but it's not something you should rely on.

The main issue with Arts performance up versus raw NP gauge charging is that it doesn't scale well. And the people who depend on Arts cards for NP gen tend to have terrible NP gen. Since, for some reason, they scale NP gen based on the number of Arts cards you have, and the number of hits on that Arts. Jack has amazing NP gain because she only has 1 Arts card, and her hit counts on arts is terrible compared to her quick. Fox's Wedding does almost nothing for people like Jack. (This is my main beef with Tamamo, if you haven't noticed. She provides a lot in a small number of teams, compared to Waver who provides a lot in basically any team you care to slot him in. In her own niche she's on Waver's level, but, until the point 'her own niche' is basically every single team comp, or at least as many team comps as Waver fits into, I don't consider them to be on the same level.)

 

Regarding why Fox's Wedding doesn't scale well:

As an example, Pioneer of the Stars is equivalent to 100% Golden Rule if you can only use that Golden Rule to get a single NP during the 3 turns it up. This is because from 0-100% charge a 100% Golden Rule would give you 50% 'extra' charge. This means, if literally all your NP gain came from attacking with Arts cards (and not Arts chain bonuses, NP charge skills, or getting hit), Fox's Wedding would give you, assuming no other sources of Arts performance up.

33% NP gauge. (Waver's crit skill gives 30%)

The regular Arts card hits gains 66% NP, 50% performance increase gives the last 33%.

 

And this is in the extreme case of someone who only uses the Arts card for their NP gen, and nothing else.

 

 

Regarding Waver's NP and Tamamo's. Yeah they do different things, but you at least see how CD reduction isn't nearly as unique, and therefore indispensable, right? If CD reduction were the only way to time defense buffs against, say, archer NPs, because of CD issues, then Tamamo would be nearly required on every single team---because you have to get 2 cd reductions off to get your 5cd defense buffs up again before the NP. But np drain, charm, stun, anything that buys a turn... buys a turn for your skills to cd.

 

Off-topic: I've never thought 'uniqueness' made a unit stronger or weaker. Reinhardt's terrifying because of his Dire Thunder, one of only two magical brave weapons in FEH, but there's a reason Olwen is almost always forgotten. Brave Bow archers are as common as they get, but they'll always be fairly strong for all the reasons brave weapons and ranged attacks are strong.

 

P.S. I hope you aren't taking this argument too personally. I argue like this because this is, honestly, what I believe, and it's always pretty interesting to see other people's viewpoints.

Edited July 4, 2018 by DehNutCase

[MacLovin]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

The main issue with Arts performance up versus raw NP gauge charging is that it doesn't scale well. And the people who depend on Arts cards for NP gen tend to have terrible NP gen. Since, for some reason, they scale NP gen based on the number of Arts cards you have, and the number of hits on that Arts. Jack has amazing NP gain because she only has 1 Arts card, and her hit counts on arts is terrible compared to her quick. Fox's Wedding does almost nothing for people like Jack. (This is my main beef with Tamamo, if you haven't noticed. She provides a lot in a small number of teams, compared to Waver who provides a lot in basically any team you care to slot him in. In her own niche she's on Waver's level, but, until the point 'her own niche' is basically every single team comp, or at least as many team comps as Waver fits into, I don't consider them to be on the same level.)

 

Regarding why Fox's Wedding doesn't scale well:

As an example, Pioneer of the Stars is equivalent to 100% Golden Rule if you can only use that Golden Rule to get a single NP during the 3 turns it up. This is because from 0-100% charge a 100% Golden Rule would give you 50% 'extra' charge. This means, if literally all your NP gain came from attacking with Arts cards (and not Arts chain bonuses, NP charge skills, or getting hit), Fox's Wedding would give you, assuming no other sources of Arts performance up.

33% NP gauge.

The regular Arts card hits gains 66% NP, 50% performance increase gives the last 33%.

 

And this is in the extreme case of someone who only uses the Arts card for their NP gen, and nothing else.

 

 

Regarding Waver's NP and Tamamo's. Yeah they do different things, but you at least see how CD reduction isn't nearly as unique, and therefore indispensable, right? If CD reduction were the only way to time defense buffs against, say, archer NPs, because of CD issues, then Tamamo would be nearly required on every single team---because you have to get 2 cd reductions off to get your 5cd defense buffs up again before the NP. But np drain, charm, stun, anything that buys a turn... buys a turn for your skills to cd.

 

Off-topic: I've never thought 'uniqueness' made a unit stronger or weaker. Reinhardt's terrifying because of his Dire Thunder, one of only two magical brave weapons in the FEH, but there's a reason Olwen is almost always forgotten. Brave Bow archers are as common as they get, but they'll always be fairly strong for all the reasons brave weapons and ranged attacks are strong.

 

P.S. I hope you aren't taking this argument too personally. I argue like this because this is, honestly, what I believe, and it's always pretty interesting to see other people's viewpoints.

yo it's considered better to have multiple different types of offensive buffs iirc.

so card buff+charisma+tactics+ plug suit attack buff+waver's att buff scales better.

and yeah, Tamamo isn't a generalist support, but then she's still part of the fanbase's support caster trinity, as the number 3 slot. Arts comps are easy to make. that and she's a waifu that makes other waifus such as nero and jeanne better.

 

 

[DehNutCase]

1 minute ago, Mister Rogers said:

yo it's considered better to have multiple different types of offensive buffs iirc.

so card buff+charisma+tactics+ plug suit attack buff+waver's att buff scales better.

and yeah, Tamamo isn't a generalist support, but then she's still part of the fanbase's support caster trinity, as the number 3 slot. Arts comps are easy to make. that and she's a waifu that makes other waifus such as nero and jeanne better.

Attack buff scaling is a matter of multiplicative stacking versus additive stacking.

That is, 50% Atk up and 50% Performance up gives 1.5 * 1.5 = 2.25x damage compared to the 1 + .5 + .5 = 2x damage you get from additive stacking.

 

Waver has that naturally.

30% Atk up, 30% defense down, 50% crit up.

1.6 * 1.5 = 2.4x damage for Crit cards.

(This is also why Merlin's Buster Crits hit for a truck load, incidentally. Merlin is 100% crit, 50% Performance, 20% Atk, for 2 * 1.5 * 1.2 = 3.6x from one person alone.)

 

 

The problem is that... there's not much point to getting more efficiency from multiplicative stacking buffs if your raw numbers don't work out.

A servant duo with 65% Atk up on both servants would still beat Tamamo + a 50% Atk up servant.

Because 1 + .65 + .65 = 2.3x, whereas 1.5*1.5 = 2.25x

 

Mind, servants with 65% Atk up are rare, and most of them are single target, but Tamamo's Fox's Wedding is also single target. (Caster Nero gets 80% if she points her guts at herself, but fortunately she's hampered by Caster class's low base attack and .9 damage modifier.)

[MacLovin]

why do you sound like you're constantly arguing for burst damage?

[DehNutCase]

Mostly because we're currently discussing things that favor burst at the moment.

 

Buff stacking is the domain of offensive oriented teams, mostly because, if you have enough stacking buffs to matter, you probably aren't a stall team.

[MacLovin]

yeah but arts teams aren't reliant on burst damage. It's about NP spam and mitigating skill cooldown and keeping your servants alive.

No shit Waver's prime for burst damage due to his offensive buffs. 

But then arts teams are often in that spot between burst damage and stalling. Hell Orion/Tamamo/Jeane(or Mash/waver) is an accepted stall team and offensive one.

[Jingle Jangle]

Finally I maxed out all of Mash's skills, with her upgrades from Camelot she will be the super tank .Wow, I have been hording rare skill materials since launch, time to use them.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

28 minutes ago, Mister Rogers said:

yeah but arts teams aren't reliant on burst damage. It's about NP spam and mitigating skill cooldown and keeping your servants alive.

No shit Waver's prime for burst damage due to his offensive buffs. 

But then arts teams are often in that spot between burst damage and stalling. Hell Orion/Tamamo/Jeane(or Mash/waver) is an accepted stall team and offensive one.

They are. All the top servants basically is used to maintain their Burst, and the strongest variant of Arts is really BG variants

 

You know what ALSO doesn't rely on Burst damage? Buster Team

[MacLovin]

3 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

They are. All the top servants basically is used to maintain their Burst, and the strongest variant of Arts is really BG variants

 

You know what ALSO doesn't rely on Burst damage? Buster Team

 Merlin and Jalter are 2/3rds of a team you silly goose. 

 

but yeah buster teams are hilarious to play. You might die sooner, but SOMEONE'S GOING DOWN with you.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Mister Rogers

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

16 minutes ago, Mister Rogers said:

 Merlin and Jalter are 2/3rds of a team you silly goose. 

 

but yeah buster teams are hilarious to play. You might die sooner, but SOMEONE'S GOING DOWN with you.

Buster team dying sooner is a myth. One of their strongest pick for offense have strongest defensive buff than Mash 1st on average, Waver is Top 2 Defensive D2D servant(Mash is WORSE than Waver for D2D defense before her buff, and after her buff she's only on par at best). Nightingale quarters off NP post interlude, Merlin have the best variation of Harp of Healing(which ironically works well with Harp of Healing), and arguably heals better than Medea Lilly. Lets put it this way, calling Buster team "glass cannon" is literally calling 2 servant that is Top 3 Stall servant in the game squishy which is just wrong in every counts

 

Thats not even counting the fact that Jeanne and Mash is actually a natural fit for Buster

 

the only difference between Buster Team and Arts Team is Arts Team have Arts as their NP type and their burst is blatantly worse in favor of "probably maybe kinda" chance to get consecutive NP(which boils down to Black Grail vs crit damage). Both of them would really have 7-8 Arts Card to at most 4 buster Card in their deck

Edited July 4, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[MacLovin]

4 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Buster team dying sooner is a myth. One of their strongest pick for offense have strongest defensive buff than Mash 1st on average, Waver is Top 2 Defensive D2D servant(Mash is WORSE than Waver for D2D defense before her buff, and after her buff she's only on par at best). Nightingale quarters off NP post interlude, Merlin have the best variation of Harp of Healing(which ironically works well with Harp of Healing), and arguably heals better than Medea Lilly. Lets put it this way, calling Buster team "glass cannon" is literally calling 2 servant that is Top 3 Stall servant in the game squishy which is just wrong in every counts

 

Thats not even counting the fact that Jeanne and Mash is actually a natural fit for Buster

 

the only difference between Buster Team and Arts Team is Arts Team have Arts as their NP type and their burst is blatantly worse in favor of "probably maybe kinda" chance to get consecutive NP(which boils down to Black Grail vs crit damage). Both of them would really have 7-8 Arts Card to at most 4 buster Card in their deck

yeah, mash is kinda stupid good with the upgrades in camelot.

never realized jeanne was used in buster comps tho. I guess it really is just swapping tamamo for memelin and arts for buster NPs.

 

now when will quick be good? 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

5 minutes ago, Mister Rogers said:

yeah, mash is kinda stupid good with the upgrades in camelot.

never realized jeanne was used in buster comps tho. I guess it really is just swapping tamamo for memelin and arts for buster NPs.

 

now when will quick be good? 

Release Kintoki Rider on every class

[MacLovin]

16 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Release Kintoki Rider on every class

or scatach as a saber.

 

[Shiki]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

In her own niche she's on Waver's level, but, until the point 'her own niche' is basically every single team comp, or at least as many team comps as Waver fits into, I don't consider them to be on the same level.

Good that were on the same page then, considering I only defend her position in Arts team. I'm not arguing against Waver being more versatile and therefore being better.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

But np drain, charm, stun, anything that buys a turn... buys a turn for your skills to cd.

... you do realize that CD reduction also has the benefit to stack on top of these, right? Having 2 reductions in single turn is better than waiting out 2 turns since Stun and Charm don't stop your opponent from gaining NP ticks. Plus I mentioned multiple times that these are debuffs, therefore much more unreliable.