General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Diovani Bressan]

37 minutes ago, Etheus said:

The only reason Arvis can even have a refine is because his tome is Atk/Res Ploy 2, which is one skill. Upgrading that to Atk/Res Ploy 3 would make it Attack Ploy 3 and Res Ploy 3. That is two full skills, and thus a full gen 2 weapon.

At best, upgrading it to two full ploys would let him have a free effective damage effect added on.

That's true. Arvis would enjoy a extra effect on his weapon, and IntSys could also refine Saias's Wargod's Tome too, because they are basically the same weapon. It will not be weird to have 3 effects on weapons (2 ploys and a new effect), because we now have weapon with 4 effects. Divine Naga is effective against dragons (1), has a Dull effect (2), disable adept damage (3) and has the +3 to all stats when unit Res > foe's Res+3 (4).

Edited January 25, 2019 by Diovani Bressan

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

It will not be weird to have 3 effects on weapons (2 ploys and a new effect), because we now have weapon with 4 effects. Divine Naga is effective against dragons (1), has a Dull effect (2), disable adept damage (3) and has the +3 to all stats when unit Res > foe's Res+3 (4).

Divine Naga still has only 2-1/3 "cost" worth of effects at maximum. Disabling adaptive damage is only 1/3 of the effect of Mystic Boost 1, and effective damage is considered a zero-cost effect (Thani has 2 types of effective damage, but still has 2 other effects).

At this point, I think the designers might even be considering disabling adaptive damage to be a free effect, as well, as it is only 1/3 of a first-tier skill.

 

That said, I do consider Valflame to be a Gen 1 weapon since Atk Ploy 2 + Res Ploy 2 is equivalent to a hypothetical Atk/Res Ploy 2 as a third-tier skill.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

14 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Divine Naga still has only 2-1/3 "cost" worth of effects at maximum. Disabling adaptive damage is only 1/3 of the effect of Mystic Boost 1, and effective damage is considered a zero-cost effect (Thani has 2 types of effective damage, but still has 2 other effects).

At this point, I think the designers might even be considering disabling adaptive damage to be a free effect, as well, as it is only 1/3 of a first-tier skill.

 

That said, I do consider Valflame to be a Gen 1 weapon since Atk Ploy 2 + Res Ploy 2 is equivalent to a hypothetical Atk/Res Ploy 2 as a third-tier skill.

Can we switch Focus to Raigh and Sophia? I feel satisfied with what I’ve done for Arvis now.

[XRay]

Sophia's Tome:

Spoiler

Effect:
If the number of infantry allies within 2 spaces ≥ 2, unit can counterattack regardless of foe's range, and if foe initiates combat, grants Def+4 during combat and Special cooldown charge +1 per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.)

Refinement:
If the number of allies within 2 spaces < 2, grants weapon-triangle advantage against colorless foes, and inflicts weapon-triangle disadvantage on colorless foes during combat and if unit has weapon-triangle advantage, boosts Atk by 20%, but if unit has weapon-triangle disadvantage, reduces Atk by 20%.

The best way I can think of to cram as many abilities into a Weapon is to utilize Golden Dagger's and White Wings' Weapon Refinement conditional effects twice.

The conditional effect also allows the selective use of Triangle Adept so she can bait as a Raven mage when further away from allies, while not having severe blue weakness as a regular tank when surrounded by her allies.

She can then basically run the following for maximum tanking potential.
Sophia's Tome
(Any Assist)
Aether
Steady Stance 4
Quick Riposte — Null C-Disrupt
(Any C)
Attack Smoke — Quick Riposte

Edited January 25, 2019 by XRay

[bottlegnomes]

11 hours ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

What do you guys think of the newest refines for Raigh and Sophia?

They seem good. Aside from my personal bias againts the {Character}'s {Weapon} naming convention, I don't have any real complaints.

Edited January 26, 2019 by bottlegnomes

[ILikeKirbys]

@Azure the Scale Tipper

Raigh: Bladetome with built-in Chill RES, it'd certainly be a good buff for him. Not sure if Bladetome is too good on him (IIRC Odin only got it because his ATK is trash, while Raigh's is actually okay), but outside of that one reservation I don't have a problem with this.

Sophia: Owltome with Guard 6 is something that would certainly be beneficial for Sophia. Simple and effective, I have no complaints.

So it just occurred to me; Since Binding Blade banner is coming in a couple of months and Roy already got his refinement, maybe they'll do a Durandal refinement with the March update. Here's my take on what that could look like:

Eliwood - Knight of Lycia
Durandal [Refine] | MT 16 | Grants ATK +6 when unit initiates combat.
Skill-Refine: When initiating combat and unit's RES > foe's RES+5, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack.

Also, for consideration:

Lukas - Sharp Soldier
Sentinel's Spear | MT 16 | Accelerates Special Trigger (cooldown count -1).
Skill-Refine: Skills with "effective against armored" are effective against unit. If unit's HP > 50% and foe initiates combat, grants Special Cooldown Charge +1 per unit's attack, and unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack. (Does not stack.)

Gray - Wry Comrade & Tobin - The Clueless One
Dread Rapier | MT 16 | Effective vs. Cavalry & Armored.
Skill-Refine: Deals +10 damage when Special triggers.

Faye - Devoted Heart
Mila's Bow | MT 14 | Effective against Flying enemies. At start of every 2nd turn, restores 10 HP.
Skill-Refine: Grants DEF/RES +5 during combat when adjacent to at least one ally.

Thoughts?

Edited January 26, 2019 by ILikeKirbys

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

8 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@Azure the Scale Tipper

Raigh: Bladetome with built-in Chill RES, it'd certainly be a good buff for him. Not sure if Bladetome is too good on him (IIRC Odin only got it because his ATK is trash, while Raigh's is actually okay), but outside of that one reservation I don't have a problem with this.

Sophia: Owltome with Guard 6 is something that would certainly be beneficial for Sophia. Simple and effective, I have no complaints.

So it just occurred to me; Since Binding Blade banner is coming in a couple of months and Roy already got his refinement, maybe they'll do a Durandal refinement with the March update. Here's my take on what that could look like:

Eliwood - Knight of Lycia
Durandal [Refine] | MT 16 | Grants ATK +6 when unit initiates combat.
Skill-Refine: When initiating combat and unit's RES > foe's RES+5, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack. Certainly more innovative than my idea; possibly more powerful, too. It also fits in with how every Legendary Elise Weapon has not had dragon effectiveness (which I did have with my Eliwood refine.

Also, for consideration:

Lukas - Sharp Soldier
Sentinel's Spear | MT 16 | Accelerates Special Trigger (cooldown count -1).
Skill-Refine: Skills with "effective against armored" are effective against unit. If unit's HP > 50% and foe initiates combat, grants Special Cooldown Charge +1 per unit's attack, and unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack. (Does not stack.) I think I have seen someone mention this before. It’s a nice reference to how Lukas basically becomes an Armored unit upon promotion in Gaiden/SoV, and Vengeful Fighter suits him well.

Gray - Wry Comrade & Tobin - The Clueless One
Dread Rapier | MT 16 | Effective vs. Cavalry & Armored.
Skill-Refine: Deals +10 damage when Special triggers. Simple, yet effective. Certainly more generally useful than my Peasant’s Rapier for Gray. Does leave room for someone to use Ilwoon (possibly a merc from Celica’s side?).

Faye - Devoted Heart
Mila's Bow | MT 14 | Effective against Flying enemies. At start of every 2nd turn, restores 10 HP.
Skill-Refine: Grants DEF/RES +5 during combat when adjacent to at least one ally. More befitting of a tank than Firesweep Bow, that’s for sure. It also references the fact that wielders of the Bow in SoV recover HP, so that’s nice.

Thoughts?

My thoughts in underlined text.

[Diovani Bressan]

19 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Faye - Devoted Heart
Mila's Bow | MT 14 | Effective against Flying enemies. At start of every 2nd turn, restores 10 HP.
Skill-Refine: Grants DEF/RES +5 during combat when adjacent to at least one ally.

I would enjoy this. My Faye has Guard Bow+, and Mila's Bow wouldn't make me change her build, and the Def/Res Bond effect from the refinement would be great with others Bond skills, like having Atk/Res Bond on the A-slot, and Atk/Def Bond on the Seal Slot for the Atk/Def/Res+10 during combat. Then give her ally support with Male Corrin with refined Yato...

Faye is a unit that I want to be demoted so badly!

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Faye is a unit that I want to be demoted so badly!

Unless we have less restricted access to Null-C Disrupt (which counters a certain powerful weapon Faye does not use well), that may not happen, unfortunately.

@ILikeKirbys @Ice Dragon @bottlegnomes It’s time for a new batch to be reviewed.

Spoiler

-Canas: Gespenst:

14 might

Default: Owl effect

Refine: Spd/Res Bond 3

-Lyon: [Refined] Naglfar:

14 might

Default: (Same as before)

Refine: Sturdy Stance 3

-Henry: Curse-Ridden Hand:

*It’s, like, an actual Risen hand.

14 might

Default: Atk/Res Solo 3

Refine: After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts the following status on target: “At start of next turn, inflicts 20 damage to unit and 10 damage to all allies within 2 spaces. Only occurs once.”

-Tharja: Goetia:

14 might

Default: Swift Sparrow 2

Refine: Desperation 3

Was debating on giving Aversa a Refine (like giving her R Duel Flying 3), but that might be a bit much for now.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Azure the Scale Tipper
Revisions.

[Diovani Bressan]

6 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

Was debating on giving Aversa a Refine (like giving her R Duel Flying 3), but that might be a bit much for now.

I don't know if Duel Skills will be part of any refinement someday...Anyway, for Aversa:

Aversa - Dark One

Aversa's Knight (MT 14 - Rng 2): Grants Res+3. At start of turn, if any foe's HP ≤ unit’s HP-1 and that foe is adjacent to another foe, inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res-3 on that foe and bonuses on that foe become penalties through its next action.

Refinement: Recover 50% of damage dealt.

Aversa has a global effect on her weapon. The main effect requirement could change from "foe's HP ≤ unit’s HP-3" to "foe's HP ≤ unit’s HP-1". For the refinement, she could have the Absorb's effect, which is basically the effect that Aversa's Night has in Awakening. Also, be able to recover HP is great when Aversa has a skill that requires to have high HP to trigger.

If the refinement is too much, maybe keep the main effect of "foe's HP ≤ unit’s HP-3" and the refinement recover 30% of the damage dealt instead of 50%.

[bottlegnomes]

@Azure the Scale Tipper Lyon's has three effects, none of which are considered free. His bulk also isn't exactly terrible so it's not like he's in dire need of improvements to durability. I'd say go with bow breaker or the stance. Another couple options that I could see him liking are mystic boost (deal with staves), null c disrupt (staves and fs bow), staff breaker, or TA3 (opens up his A slot). That said, I'm a-okay with BB or bracing stance too. One crack idea I had was give him WTA over other reds (in combat with himself it'd cancel and be neutral), but a 40% WTA over 3/4 of colors seemed like it might be a bit much.

I'm not sure how practical Henry's would be in general, but it sounds fun.

Edited January 27, 2019 by bottlegnomes

[ILikeKirbys]

@Diovani Bressan Mine has Guard Bow+ too! Also Close Counter because I make bad decisions, which is the reason I gave her DEF/RES Bond (since it gives the DEF/RES buffs against melee foes too), but yeah, she'd end up pretty solid if you stacked Bonds on her (especially with an adjacent allied M!Corrin contributing Spur ATK/SPD 2 and Spur DEF/RES 2 for an added +9 to all stats, at which point neutral Faye would have a statline of 42 HP | 63 ATK | 34 SPD | 45 DEF | 50 RES, which looks rather good to me).
I wouldn't expect Faye to demote any time soon, Firesweep is still a really good weapon, but I want it too, considering it'd make her much easier to +10.

As for your Aversa refine, I think that could work if you took off the RES +3 on the refined Aversa's Night and reduced the Refine effect's Sol to Daylight. Not sure the global-effect needed to be buffed, but I wouldn't be against that. It's certainly a good weapon.

@Azure the Scale Tipper ...I might've posted that Lukas one before, or at least a version of it. I know I've typed it up at least once, just forgot whether or not I've posted it here before.

As for Gray/Tobin's, I liked your idea for Ilwoon on Tobin, and wound up lumping Tobin in with Gray on Dread Rapier because I couldn't come up with anything better than your Ilwoon that didn't seem like it had too many effects.

Also, Legendary Elise Weapon? Now I'm picturing Eliwood using Elise as a weapon... Maybe if he gets a Brave version?

Regarding the new refines:

Quote

-Canas: Gespenst:

14 might

Default: Owl effect

Refine: Spd/Res Bond 3

Gespenst in FE7 is just a high-MT Dark tome, so I feel like ATK/X Bond would make more sense for the Refine than SPD/RES Bond... But on the other hand, Canas would certainly benefit from SPD/RES Bond on top of the Owl-effect. I have no objection to keeping Owl-effect though, that seems like his best choice in terms of weapon effects. I like this weapon.

-Lyon: [Refined] Naglfar:

14 might

Default: (Same as before, but with Sturdy Stance 2)

Refine: Bowbreaker 3

I think that's too many effects on one weapon, but I wouldn't mind this weapon... Although, why Bowbreaker? Outside of those things, I like this one.

-Henry: Curse-Ridden Hand:

*It’s, like, an actual Risen hand.

14 might

Default: Atk/Res Solo 3

Refine: After combat, if foe attacked, inflicts the following status on target: “At start of next turn, inflicts 20 damage to unit and 10 damage to all adjacent allies. Only occurs once.”

That Refine effect is certainly unique, and Henry's ATK seems low enough that even with ATK/RES Solo active he probably won't be killing most people without a Special activation so it's probably useful for him to soften up his foes... Though I feel like the splash-damage range could be 2 spaces without being too good. Although, if foe attacked? Shouldn't that be if unit attacked? Still, I quite like this one.

-Tharja: Goetia:

14 might

Default: Swift Sparrow 2

Refine: Desperation 3

This refine works quite well for Tharja, considering her statline. Not much to say here, it's pretty simple but would be very effective for her.

Yeah, Aversa getting a new refine is unnecessary. Her effect is quite situational, but pretty good when it lands.

Also, reposting these two for thoughts:

Nowi - Eternal Youth
Eternal Breath | MT 16 | Unit can counterattack regardless of foe's distance.
Skill-Refine: At start of Odd numbered turns, grants ATK/SPD/DEF/RES +4 to unit and adjacent allies for 1 turn.

Subaki - Perfect Expert
Subaki's Pike | MT 16 | When HP = 100% at start of combat, grants ATK/SPD/DEF/RES +4 during combat, but if unit attacked, inflicts 1 damage after combat.
Skill-Refine: When HP = 100% at start of combat, grants Special Charge +1 during combat, then inflicts 5 damage after combat.

[Diovani Bressan]

3 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Mine has Guard Bow+ too! Also Close Counter because I make bad decisions, which is the reason I gave her DEF/RES Bond (since it gives the DEF/RES buffs against melee foes too), but yeah, she'd end up pretty solid if you stacked Bonds on her (especially with an adjacent allied M!Corrin contributing Spur ATK/SPD 2 and Spur DEF/RES 2 for an added +9 to all stats, at which point neutral Faye would have a statline of 42 HP | 63 ATK | 34 SPD | 45 DEF | 50 RES, which looks rather good to me).
I wouldn't expect Faye to demote any time soon, Firesweep is still a really good weapon, but I want it too, considering it'd make her much easier to +10.

The Spur ATK/SPD 2 and Spur DEF/RES 2 combo works pretty well. I use it on my Marth, for the Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5. This combo is more useful in Marth than in Corrin, because you trade a +9 to a +7 for your ally support, but the others allies will have access to +5. Also, ally support doesn't work in the enemy's team. I still think that InsSys should introduce ally support in the enemy team units, especially in Bound Hero Battles.

And for Faye, we cannot forget that she still has access to visible buffs, like Hone/Fortify/Tactic skills. With +6 to all stats, she would have 42 HP, 69 Atk, 40 Spd, 51 Def and 56 Res. And these are the stats for a Lv 40+0 Faye.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

29 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

@Azure the Scale Tipper Lyon's has three effects, none of which are considered free. His bulk also isn't exactly terrible so it's not like he's in dire need of improvements to durability. I'd say go with bow breaker or the stance. Another couple options that I could see him liking are mystic boost (deal with staves), null c disrupt (staves and fs bow), staff breaker, or TA3 (opens up his A slot). That said, I'm a-okay with BB or bracing stance too. One crack idea I had was give him WTA over other reds (in combat with himself it'd cancel and be neutral), but a 40% WTA over 3/4 of colors seemed like it might be a bit much.

Might remove the Bowbreaker and make the refine Sturdy Stance. It’s just that Raventomes are not effective anymore.

16 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@Diovani Bressan Mine has Guard Bow+ too! Also Close Counter because I make bad decisions, which is the reason I gave her DEF/RES Bond (since it gives the DEF/RES buffs against melee foes too), but yeah, she'd end up pretty solid if you stacked Bonds on her (especially with an adjacent allied M!Corrin contributing Spur ATK/SPD 2 and Spur DEF/RES 2 for an added +9 to all stats, at which point neutral Faye would have a statline of 42 HP | 63 ATK | 34 SPD | 45 DEF | 50 RES, which looks rather good to me).
I wouldn't expect Faye to demote any time soon, Firesweep is still a really good weapon, but I want it too, considering it'd make her much easier to +10.

As for your Aversa refine, I think that could work if you took off the RES +3 on the refined Aversa's Night and reduced the Refine effect's Sol to Daylight. Not sure the global-effect needed to be buffed, but I wouldn't be against that. It's certainly a good weapon.

@Azure the Scale Tipper ...I might've posted that Lukas one before, or at least a version of it. I know I've typed it up at least once, just forgot whether or not I've posted it here before.

As for Gray/Tobin's, I liked your idea for Ilwoon on Tobin, and wound up lumping Tobin in with Gray on Dread Rapier because I couldn't come up with anything better than your Ilwoon that didn't seem like it had too many effects.

Also, Legendary Elise Weapon? Now I'm picturing Eliwood using Elise as a weapon... Maybe if he gets a Brave version?

Regarding the new refines:

Yeah, Aversa getting a new refine is unnecessary. Her effect is quite situational, but pretty good when it lands.

Also, reposting these two for thoughts:

Nowi - Eternal Youth
Eternal Breath | MT 16 | Unit can counterattack regardless of foe's distance.
Skill-Refine: At start of Odd numbered turns, grants ATK/SPD/DEF/RES +4 to unit and adjacent allies for 1 turn. Trade BST and Fighter skills for a better weapon than Grima? Seems legit.

Subaki - Perfect Expert
Subaki's Pike | MT 16 | When HP = 100% at start of combat, grants ATK/SPD/DEF/RES +4 during combat, but if unit attacked, inflicts 1 damage after combat.
Skill-Refine: When HP = 100% at start of combat, grants Special Charge +1 during combat, then inflicts 5 damage after combat. Suits Subaki’s character well, and Renewal or healers can patch up that recoil damage.

For Henry’s Refine, if foe attacked means that the effect will not land if foe did not attack during that combat. Which takes place if Henry initiates combat on anyone who cannot counterattack him. So, Henry can be bait. That would be broken, I think. Also, I was going to make that AoE damage 2-range, but changed it last minute.

Also, that typo of mine was a big oof on my part. Will edit my Refined with your suggestions.

Edit: Okay, I might have to change the effect to “if unit attacked”. Just had to clarify my reasoning.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Azure the Scale Tipper

[bottlegnomes]

2 hours ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

Might remove the Bowbreaker and make the refine Sturdy Stance. It’s just that Raventomes are not effective anymore.

Definitely agreed about Raven tomes. You could also pull a Brynhildr and drop the base effect entirely. Maybe do something like Bracing Stance + if unit's def + res > foe's def + res, foe cannot perform a follow-up attack? Per the total defense chart, Lyon is already not too shabby there, and with the +8 from bracing stance, that'd put him in a range where most of the units who'd break the effect wouldn't be able to double him naturally anyway (obviously setting aside Bold Fighter's shenanigans).

Edited January 27, 2019 by bottlegnomes

[colossus86]

Just a couple things I want to add to the current discussion since they were brought up a while back and are likely buried in the thread never to be seen again:

1. As of now, no unit with anything above launch era BST has received a weapon refine or a new weapon. This is likely due to part of the intention of the weapon refinery as a way to not just equalize performance between newer and older units, but to at least partially equalize their scoring. An old unit who revived a new weapon like Lon'Qu has the same scoring ceiling as a newer unit without a PRF like Soleil (Although the introduction of inheritable 300 SP C Skills has thrown a wrench in this, so maybe this criteria will get dropped soon). Also worth noting that no Armored unit has ever received a new weapon in the refinerey. Zepehiel already had his PRF so it getting a refine had no impact on his scoring ceiling.

2.Although it may not seem like it, stat increases like Spd +3 are considered "full" effects for the purpose of weapon balancing. They usually show up on weapons with an effect too strong to be paired with another full effect such as Sinmara or Flame Siegmund and I dubbed these as "Lopsided Weapons" a while back.  No weapon with a stat increase has ever had it removed to make room for a full effect, so even underwhelming weapons like Audhulma and Light Brand are unlikely to be changed for the time being. Sidebar: @ILikeKirbys Aversa is a dominant, meta defining unit in Aether Raids, and with a fully committed build, (I'm talking R Duel Flyers, Merges and maybe Summoner Support) she can be dominant in Arena. Out of all the "Lopsided Weapons" in the game, Aversa's Night is one of the last that should be buffed in any way.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

Decided to pull a Brynhilde on Naglfar.

-Lyon: [Refined] Naglfar:

14 might

Default: Distant Def 3

Refine: Sturdy Stance 2

Aside from that, @bottlegnomes @Ice Dragon @ILikeKirbys @Diovani Bressan , new batch. First blue units.

Spoiler

-Corrin/M!Kana: Torrential Breath:

16 might

Default: Bracing Stance 2 + Adaptive damage effect

Refine: If unit is within 2 spaces of support ally, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res +4 to that ally during combat.

*Female Kana, even if she is a Green Dragon, also has this weapon.

-Jagen: Guardian’s Lance:

16 might

Default: Steady Stance 3.5 (Def version of Berkut’s Lance)

Refine: Atk Ploy 3

-Abel: Green Panther’s Lance:

16 might

Default: Spd/Def Solo 3

Refine: Grants +3 Atk/Res to all cavalry and flying allies within 2 spaces.

 

[Fabulously Olivier]

Any guesses as to who will be getting a weapon refinery update next month?

[Diovani Bressan]

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

Any guesses as to who will be getting a weapon refinery update next month?

It's hard to say... the units selection for the weapon refinery is quite random. We had Genealogy unit in 3.1, Awakening and Shadow Dragon units in 3.0... for 2.11 we had a mix of Binding Blade, Blazing Blade and Shadows of Valentia.

[Fabulously Olivier]

7 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

It's hard to say... the units selection for the weapon refinery is quite random. We had Genealogy unit in 3.1, Awakening and Shadow Dragon units in 3.0... for 2.11 we had a mix of Binding Blade, Blazing Blade and Shadows of Valentia.

I'm aware that it is a difficult guess. Anything I guess will probably be wrong. But have fun with it.

 

My guess is Valentia. Berkut, Sonya, Lukas/Clive, Mae, and Boey.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

-Jagen: Guardian’s Lance:

16 might

Default: Steady Stance 3.5 (Def version of Berkut’s Lance)

Refine: Atk Ploy 3

Jagen really wants Special acceleration of some sort because his damage output depends almost entirely on his Special damage. Ideally, he'd get Slaying Lance as the base and Steady Breath on the refine, which lets him spam Icebergs or land a single-round Aether.

Tanking forever is nice and all, but if you can't kill the enemy, you'll eventually have to deal with them activating their Special.

[Fabulously Olivier]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Jagen really wants Special acceleration of some sort because his damage output depends almost entirely on his Special damage. Ideally, he'd get Slaying Lance as the base and Steady Breath on the refine, which lets him spam Icebergs or land a single-round Aether.

Tanking forever is nice and all, but if you can't kill the enemy, you'll eventually have to deal with them activating their Special.

Steady Breath over Warding Breath on a Res tank?

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Jagen really wants Special acceleration of some sort because his damage output depends almost entirely on his Special damage. Ideally, he'd get Slaying Lance as the base and Steady Breath on the refine, which lets him spam Icebergs or land a single-round Aether.

Tanking forever is nice and all, but if you can't kill the enemy, you'll eventually have to deal with them activating their Special.

Hm... I have an idea. What about if a foe with a higher BST is in combat against him, and he gets that +1 to Special charge that way?

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Steady Breath over Warding Breath on a Res tank?

His current optimal set runs +Def with a Def refine on Slaying Lance+, which gives him a respectable 42/32/35 bulk, letting a 28-damage Glacies patch up his Atk stat.

 

10 minutes ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

Hm... I have an idea. What about if a foe with a higher BST is in combat against him, and he gets that +1 to Special charge that way?

Then it doesn't activate against every Gen 1 tome user and a lot of Gen 2 tome users, which is kind of defeats the purpose.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

20 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

His current optimal set runs +Def with a Def refine on Slaying Lance+, which gives him a respectable 42/32/35 bulk, letting a 28-damage Glacies patch up his Atk stat.

 

Then it doesn't activate against every Gen 1 tome user and a lot of Gen 2 tome users, which is kind of defeats the purpose.

So what other ways can I go about doing a refine for Jagen?

Btw, I would also like to know what your thoughts are on the other refines.