Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Eltosian Kadath]

On 12/15/2020 at 4:35 PM, Samz707 said:

I am curious as to how you're supposed to "legitimately" beat most of the early chapters/side-missions but then again I'm on hard and you're on Lunatic so Im not sure if the same style of play even remotely happens in most chapters.

I wouldn't exactly call this the "legitimate" way to beat them, but the restrictions I have been using in the Awakening Lunatic LP linked below, lead to a very, very different style of play
 

On 12/15/2020 at 3:17 PM, Alastor15243 said:

That said, at least in this game, there's basically no gameplay incentive to unlock any supports between characters you aren't planning on pairing up. Which generally means husband and wife pairs. It's not until Fates that they add more tangible gameplay rewards for maxing out other types of supports.

There is still a little bit, as having more supporting allies adjacent results in extra Accuracy, Avoid, Crit, and Crit avoid

https://serenesforest.net/awakening/miscellaneous/dual-system/

 

12 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

OH MY GOD.

SHE DODGED.

HOLY SHIT!

91% HIT RATE, 98.47% TRUE HIT, AND SHE DODGED.

1.53% CHANCE.

I DO NOT DESERVE THIS, BUT I AM ROLLING WITH IT.

LEVEL UP. HP. MAGIC. SPEED. LUCK. DAMN RIGHT YOU'RE LUCKY SUMIA, AND SO AM I!

...Wow, that was a lucky.

 

12 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

...that's one complaint I have about the 3D games. It's very hard to tell sometimes where forests and mountains are, especially on maps set at night.

I don't remember that being much of a problem on any of the other 3DS games, but it was certainly a major problem on Awakening...

 

[Jotari]

33 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I wouldn't exactly call this the "legitimate" way to beat them, but the restrictions I have been using in the Awakening Lunatic LP linked below, lead to a very, very different style of play
 

There is still a little bit, as having more supporting allies adjacent results in extra Accuracy, Avoid, Crit, and Crit avoid

https://serenesforest.net/awakening/miscellaneous/dual-system/

 

...Wow, that was a lucky.

 

I don't remember that being much of a problem on any of the other 3DS games, but it was certainly a major problem on Awakening...

 

Maybe because they expected us to actually use the 3D in the first outing?

[Samz707]

40 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

 

 

I don't remember that being much of a problem on any of the other 3DS games, but it was certainly a major problem on Awakening...

 

Yeah I'm really glad Echoes actually went back to having the trees only be on the actual tiles, there were way too many times when I was new to Awakening where I'd think the trees ment a tile was a forest tile...only it was actually the tile right next it, then the enemy I was trying to fight from the advantage of the tile would get the tile bonus.

Now I basically just slowly scan all nearby tiles while keeping an eye on the actual Tile bonus indicatior.

[Alastor15243]

Awakening Day 4: Chapter 5

Don't really have any other options left besides doing Chapter 5 today. That or doing EXPonential Growth and probably wasting a huge amount of it with all the monsters that are likely to get away.

Oooh! So the barracks went faster today for some reason. Maybe it's only slow the first time? Anyway, I got some experience for Robin, some stuff I don't care about, and then Alm's Blade. The single most powerful sword in the entire game. It only has 10 uses, but it's got the highest attack power of any sword that can be forged, meaning you can make it stronger than the goddamned Regalia. Sure, 10 uses, but this is a game that has armsthrift...

...Which reminds me that there was another reason why I reclassed Alexandria into mercenary besides getting bowbreaker for dark flier: armsthrift. The skill that gives you a luck x 2 percent chance to not waste a weapon use when attacking. Get yourself to 50 luck and you can use any weapon forever.

Well, she's 1 exp away from level 20, so I'll let her get there and then reclass her right away.

Let's check out Chapter 5.

Ah yes, Gangrel. AKA The Joker if he were a dictator. He's... he's got some good lines, not gonna lie, but I would be lying if I said he was in the upper half of my list of favorite antagonists in the series.

I like how they went to the trouble of actually making a “struggling with bound arms” animation for Maribelle here. If this were a certain other game, they'd just tell us she was tied up while refusing to show her from below the shoulders. Or maybe even clearly showing that she isn't tied up.

“Did they not teach the meaning of the word “truth” in wretched-crone school!?”

Okay, that still makes me chuckle even after all these years.

It's kind of hilarious that Gangrel is going to all this trouble to argue that they have no proof he did anything wrong or proof that Maribelle is innocent... but like... who is he trying to convince? Who exactly at this meeting does he think believes this nonsense story? Is he trying to convince Emmeryn? Or is he just passive-aggressively saying “These are the lies I'm gonna tell my people, and they'll believe them.”?

...Ah.

Ah yes.

Of course.

This is the part where they show the Fire Emblem, sans all but one of its stones (the white one that the wiki claims is now the once-yellow Lightsphere), with no explanation, and no intention of giving an explanation for why the fuck the shield has been split apart again.

So yeah. Um... for those of you just joining us, and who didn't read the previous playlogs...

...There's a thing about this game. It kind of... does not give a single shit, at all, about the lore of any of the games in the setting it claims to be a part of.

In this game, the Fire Emblem is a magical artifact that possesses great power when all of the gems are gathered together. I can't remember whether they actually confirm it can be used for anything else, though many claim it can in-story, but its main purpose is to unlock the true power of the Falchion. But it was deemed too powerful and dangerous to be trusted to the hands of any one man, so it was split apart, and its gems entrusted to the various nations of the world.

Here's the thing:

That's literally all bullshit.

In the Archanean lore, the one and only purpose of the Fire Emblem, also known as the Binding Shield, is to emit a protective energy that seals the earth dragons and keeps Tiki from going insane, because as the youngest dragon alive and the last dragon ever born, she was too young to be able to escape the inevitable descent into madness that awaited her people even after sealing her powers away in a dragonstone unless that shield's protective aura over the world kept her sane or she was in a coma.

And yeah, you heard that right: youngest dragon alive, and the last dragon ever born. That's another fun fact Awakening decided to shit on: in the Archanean lore, dragons aren't supposed to be able to have children anymore, so Nowi and Nah literally should not exist. And the reason they can't have children is the same reason they have to use dragonstones: a mysterious cataclysmic shift in the laws of physics in eons past messed with dragonkind's ability to function in this world, slowly rendering them sterile and driving them mad, with sealing their powers in dragonstones and living as humans being the only recourse they had to stave off the madness.

Now, however, Manaketes can suddenly have children again, but still need to use dragonstones, and the game never even tries to explain this, despite the fact that the species has still apparently almost completely died out and lost control of its only nation.

Basically, the game took an artifact where the entire point of the last game was that it must never be taken apart again under any circumstances...

...And had the heroes decide it needed to be split up for the good of the world. And this was done without the people who did it being intended to be depicted as titanic idiots.

...At least that's how I remember the Fire Emblem gem-splitting being explained in this game. I'll have to see when it actually explains this, but whether or not it was willingly split apart is kind of irrelevant: they completely changed what the Fire Emblem has the power to do, and they offered no explanation for this at all.

Alright, let's get a move on with things.

Gangrel: Your father named us HEATHENS!

…

Gangrel. Your country literally worships Dragon Satan.

Yeah, this feels as dumb as when they tried to make us feel bad for the worshippers of Loptyr in Genealogy of the Holy War. I mean, they were still worshipping and praising and actively associating with a demon who literally eats children. There's only so much sympathy I can have.

Especially when, according to the wiki, the country of Plegia was founded by Grimleal.

Also, I'm getting conflicting information about Gangrel's role in Grimleal...ism...? I could've sworn he was the only thing keeping the Grimleal out of power in the country, but apparently he actually made Grimleal...ism... mandatory and heavily popularized it? I am very, very confused. Do any supports shine light on this?

So Gangrel basically declares that he'll have the Fire Emblem if he has to pry it out of Emmeryn's “shiny dead hands”, and barbarians come to attack her. Chrom stands in their way and kills them, and...

...Gangrel says that, Chrom's action to defend his sister from those attacking barbarians, was the declaration of war. Granted, it's Gangrel saying it, and he's a lying self-serving sack of shit. But if anyone, fucking anyone on my team tries to call Chrom out on “escalating the conflict” here, I am going to be sooooooooooo pissed.

But anyway, Ricken comes by and uses elwind to take out the bandit guarding Maribelle and also Aversa... which would've done no damage in reality, she's that strong. And in fact it does the “no damage” tink sound. ...But she still recoils from it. Is she faking or something to help Gangrel's eventual defeat?

Yeah, so, anyway, this game seems to have thoroughly established that it doesn't like showing you where your new units will be at the start of the map, which is a massive pain. Thankfully Fates stops pulling this shit. But Maribelle and Ricken will start this map up on that cliff, basically impossible to get to before they die on any difficulty above hard unless you abuse DLC grinding.

...Which is why you don't fight your way to them at all.

You use the rescue staff you just got. Pair them up, rescue them, and presto, they're safe. Or as safe as you can be as an untrained unit on Lunatic. Thankfully Lissa just barely has enough magic to reach over the cliff with her staff. We would've been in trouble if her level ups had just been a tiny bit shittier than they already were.

I changed my mind about getting that last level up for Alexandria. She's going to mercenary right away because she'll waste way more experience being at level 20 on enemy phase for turn 1 than if she misses this one last level. Plus, this will just plain get her closer to getting the skills she wants.

I'm gonna want to take her back to the tactician/grandmaster class eventually though. It's my favorite class for the avatar, no, my favorite class in this entire game.

This game has ambush spawn reinforcements, but thankfully they come from a predictable place: the forts. I'll try to get some exp for Sumia and Miriel at the beginning, but as usual, the lion's share's going to Alexandria simply because she's the only one who can reliably avoid getting seriously hurt.

I gave Alexandria my levin sword so that she can counter the dark mage at range. She has just enough attack power with it to one-round the sorcerer without dual strikes.

Miriel's partner is still Lon'qu, and Sumia's is still Frederick for the time being. They're the most useful ones I have for them, though I plan to change to Gregor and Gaius respectively once I get my hands on them.

Okay. I think that's everything. Lissa has her staves, Alexandria has her weapons... we're good.

Also, I learned my lesson and put Kellam's stuff on Sumia, so now she has a javelin.

Let's go.

Sadly Miriel still just barely needs Celica's gale to one-round enemies, but thankfully we can buy more of that stuff at spotpass shops if need be. But it's really annoying that she just barely can't one-round things with thunder and needs the one extra attack power of Celica's Gale. Not even the brave attacks. The one extra might.

So, weird thing... I'm feeling bizarrely nostalgic today. It's covered in snow outside, my work's canceled, I've got nothing to do today but play this game and write this shit down, and... I dunno, it feels like it's Christmas and I'm playing my brand new Fire Emblem game again.

...Which is weird, because I haven't gotten a mainline Fire Emblem game as a Christmas present since Path of Radiance. Closest thing was the Fire Emblem Warriors that a friend of mine sent me when I told him I was finally buying a Switch in December 2017. I don't know why I'd feel nostalgic about playing Fire Emblem Awakening in December. And yet here I am, feeling it.

The plan was to have Alexandria hop on the fortress immediately to the north on turn 2, but she had to stay behind to kill an enemy Sumia couldn't quite finish off on enemy phase so that Miriel and Sumia could finish off the remaining myrmidon and dark mage... with Ricken's help if need be.

Nothing should prevent Alexandria from standing on the fort for turn 3 though, and Sumia should be able to guard the western fort on turn 3 as well.

...That nearly went wrong because I forgot the enemy has nosferatu, but thankfully Frederick was there to dual strike. Thankfully I already knew that if that went sour, I could still just heal up Sumia with Maribelle rather than finishing off the dark mage with Ricken, because that dark mage is so weak that it's one of the only enemies that can't one-round my untrained units.

I'm gonna stop talking about stat gains on level ups. They're not quite as important anymore. But Miriel just reached level 10 and got the focus skill. That's gonna be really nice once she can go off on her own with nosferatu. But that's not until I get my hands on some more second seals. Right now I'm fresh out.

Alexandria's leveling up faster again thanks to the fact that only half of her levels in tactician were added to her internal level when she second-sealed. Yeah, in the early game, while you haven't yet reached the stat caps of unpromoted classes, you'll get a lot stronger, a lot faster, if you second seal than if you promote. Once you promote, you start adding a lot more levels to your internal level since promotion inherently adds another 10 levels to your internal level that you didn't even gain stats for.

Aaaaand just as I suspected, I got on the forts just in time. Two seemed too soon, but three felt like something the game would do. And sure enough, it did.

And Alexandria's officially fast enough to start doubling myrmidons with Chrom's speed boost. Awesome.

...Okay. I think I'm gonna hold off on advancing for a few more turns, just to make sure I've exhausted the ambush spawns. Then I'm gonna head forward and try and finish these last guys off. Originally I was planning to give this all to Alexandria to make sure that Miriel and Sumia won't be swarmed and overwhelmed by the wyvern riders... but then I realized that I can have Miriel stand on the mid-western fort to bait in the westernmost wyvern rider, and Sumia can fly over to bait in the easternmost one, and they'll both be able to do so without any danger of being swarmed by more than one at once (especially since Sumia can fly faster than wyvern riders thanks to Frederick boosting her mov).

We got a medium bullion from the boss, and now the wyverns are flying towards Miriel and Sumia as expected.

Man, one of my favorite line combos in this game is when Frederick is a pair-up partner on enemy phase, he starts the fight by saying “None shall harm you!” and then the enemy attacks and he immediately dual-guards with “Not while I draw breath!”. It sounds like it's one sentence that way.

Alright. So, we get a little scene with Maribelle and Lissa... and...

Chrom: Forgive me, Emm. I acted rashly.

...

Chrom. Chrom. Seriously. Don't do this.

...Well Emmeryn thankfully recognizes Gangrel was the one in the wrong, but seriously, it doesn't even feel in-character for Chrom to think he did anything wrong here. Especially not when he clearly didn't.

But anyway, we're heading back to discuss strategy now, which means that next it's time for “the defense chapter that wasn't”, as I like to call it.

Also there's a paralogue where you first meet Anna and start the pseudo-quest to recruit her.

Alright, let's read some supports and finish up.

Alexandria and Chrom rank B, no comment...

Frederick and Sumia have a nice chat where Sumia seems to be the only person who finds Frederick's “zeal” for helping Chrom anything other than creepy, and Frederick offers to help her train to be more useful.

Ah yes, and now Lon'qu and Miriel. Lon'qu saves Miriel because she's so engrossed in reading that she nearly falls off a cliff, and she barely seems phased, just making a scientific note of her increased heart rate. And this is when she's gonna start being fascinated by Lon'qu's gynophobia and start doing some amusingly morbid shit if I remember correctly.

Oh, incidentally, I just realized, as I was wandering around the map checking out the shops in preparation to finish up for the day... apparently Donnel's paralogue takes place on an island. One that didn't exist in Marth's time and seems completely new... but which is still Ylissean territory?

Man, it's annoying that they don't ever discuss this.

But that's it for today. I'm planning on enjoying my free time on this “snow day”, and I hope everyone else has a good day too!

Stay safe, everyone!

Edited December 17, 2020 by Alastor15243

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

In this game, the Fire Emblem is a magical artifact that possesses great power when all of the gems are gathered together. I can't remember whether they actually confirm it can be used for anything else, though many claim it can in-story, but its main purpose is to unlock the true power of the Falchion. But it was deemed too powerful and dangerous to be trusted to the hands of any one man, so it was split apart, and its gems entrusted to the various nations of the world.

Here's the thing:

That's literally all bullshit.

In the Archanean lore, the one and only purpose of the Fire Emblem, also known as the Binding Shield, is to emit a protective energy that seals the earth dragons and keeps Tiki from going insane, because as the youngest dragon alive and the last dragon ever born, she was too young to be able to escape the inevitable descent into madness that awaited her people even after sealing her powers away in a dragonstone unless that shield's protective aura over the world kept her sane or she was in a coma.

I'd be inclined to think that each Sphere individually could be capable of great magical feats, if used by someone who studied the stones intensively. Gotoh made Starlight out of Light and Star, who is to say you couldn't make more Auras from Light alone or Aums from Life? Who is say that after ten years of Orb research, you couldn't declare a surprise invasion of your enemy's kingdom, march to the nine-feet-thick walls of the capital, and then use the Geosphere for an earthquake to tear open a large rift in the great walls that let you head straight to the palace and have Your Rival Majesty beheaded before noon?

The problem? This could be the case, but Archanea never tells us. Pretend as if each Gemstone was a Weapon of Mass Deterrence, and maybe it'd be make more sense to not let a kingdom have all five. Else those WMDs go from Deterrence to actual Destruction.

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Also, I'm getting conflicting information about Gangrel's role in Grimleal...ism...? I could've sworn he was the only thing keeping the Grimleal out of power in the country, but apparently he actually made Grimleal...ism... mandatory and heavily popularized it? I am very, very confused. Do any supports shine light on this?

I viewed very few Awakening supports, but I think I saw one of his that touched on this, though I don't remember it perfectly. He was nominally a member of the evil cult, but didn't actually involve himself in its affairs. He let Aversa and Validar do what they wanted with the Grimleal, and they let him do whatever he the King of Plegia wanted. Gangrel IIRC admits that being the terror that he was to his own people, he incidentally drove people into joining the cult out of desperation for some form of mercy.

I wouldn't call this a political-religious secular arrangement. Gangrel accepted the blessings of the Grimleal because it was useful because it was dominant in Plegia, so he was pragmatic. But church and state weren't entirely separate, the same way you couldn't call say France prior to its Revolution secular. Catholicism was the faith of the land and most certainly the ruling elite, regardless of whether or not its king was an active churchgoer or cared about his rights on ecclesiastical appointments.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Interdimensional Observer

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

But anyway, Ricken comes by and uses elwind to take out the bandit guarding Maribelle and also Aversa... which would've done no damage in reality, she's that strong. And in fact it does the “no damage” tink sound. ...But she still recoils from it. Is she faking or something to help Gangrel's eventual defeat?

Think about her class. Then it makes sense.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Think about her class. Then it makes sense.

Yes, hence why I said "she's that strong" when talking about how it still would've done no damage to her.

[Samz707]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Chrom: Forgive me, Emm. I acted rashly.

...

Chrom. Chrom. Seriously. Don't do this.

 

Chrom:*Breaths*

Chrom: Forgive me, I breathed harshly.

 

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Chrom. Chrom. Seriously. Don't do this.

...Well Emmeryn thankfully recognizes Gangrel was the one in the wrong, but seriously, it doesn't even feel in-character for Chrom to think he did anything wrong here. Especially not when he clearly didn't.

 

Well I mean technically he did do something wrong. He played into Gangrel’s game. Gangrel kept edging him on and he took the bait which is something you’re not supposed to do. He let his emotions rule over his thoughts and acted rashly. While, yes, protecting his sister was the right thing to do and he did indeed take action. He was only really playing into Gangrel’s game. Gangrel was looking for any excuse to start a war and Chrom pretty much served him that excuse on a silver platter. Taking action was indeed the correct thing to do, but doing the way he did was indeed wrong because he didn’t think of the consequences before he took action which is a character flaw the story is going to continue emphasizing from this point on. 

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Gangrel. Your country literally worships Dragon Satan.

Yeah, this feels as dumb as when they tried to make us feel bad for the worshippers of Loptyr in Genealogy of the Holy War. I mean, they were still worshipping and praising and actively associating with a demon who literally eats children. There's only so much sympathy I can have.

I read it more as Gangrel just looking for an excuse for a war. In supplementary materials it’s stated that he barely even cares about the previous war. He just needs an excuse to rally the entire country to war and that just so happened to be said excuse. For what reason? I think it was more so to satiate his own twisted ego. This goes back to Chrom acting rashly. Gangrel wanted to create the narrative that they started the war not him and Chrom acting rashly is what allowed him to do that. That’s really the point of this whole conflict.

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

At least that's how I remember the Fire Emblem gem-splitting being explained in this game. I'll have to see when it actually explains this, but whether or not it was willingly split apart is kind of irrelevant: they completely changed what the Fire Emblem has the power to do, and they offered no explanation for this at all.

 

We really need a prequel to awakening set during the time of the first exalt it would answer a lot of these questions.

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

It's kind of hilarious that Gangrel is going to all this trouble to argue that they have no proof he did anything wrong or proof that Maribelle is innocent... but like... who is he trying to convince? Who exactly at this meeting does he think believes this nonsense story? Is he trying to convince Emmeryn? Or is he just passive-aggressively saying “These are the lies I'm gonna tell my people, and they'll believe them.”?

Like I said, all of this is to just goad Chrom and the rest of plegia into doing what he wants. He doesn’t care about any of this. He just wants a war to satiate his own twisted ambitions. 

 

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Also, I'm getting conflicting information about Gangrel's role in Grimleal...ism...? I could've sworn he was the only thing keeping the Grimleal out of power in the country, but apparently he actually made Grimleal...ism... mandatory and heavily popularized it? I am very, very confused. Do any supports shine light on this?

I think it’s stated either in a support or supplementary material that he was only put into power on the condition that he would make the grimeal the national religion of Plegia and reinforce its values. That’s what the wiki says anyway.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Well I mean technically he did do something wrong. He played into Gangrel’s game. Gangrel kept edging him on and he took the bait which is something you’re not supposed to do. He let his emotions rule over his thoughts and acted rashly. While, yes, protecting his sister was the right thing to do and he did indeed take action. He was only really playing into Gangrel’s game. Gangrel was looking for any excuse to start a war and Chrom pretty much served him that excuse on a silver platter. Taking action was indeed the correct thing to do, but doing the way he did was indeed wrong because he didn’t think of the consequences before he took action which is a character flaw the story is going to continue emphasizing from this point on. 

How exactly is Gangrel explicitly ordering the assassination of the leader of another county not already an act of war? What exactly was Chrom supposed to do in that situation, other than kill the people Gangrel just told to murder his sister, and who just went charging at her with intent to kill?

 

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

How exactly is Gangrel explicitly ordering the assassination of the leader of another county not already an act of war? What exactly was Chrom supposed to do in that situation, other than kill the people Gangrel just told to murder his sister, and who just went charging at her with intent to kill?

 

Think of it this way, the reason online trolls do what they do is to prompt a reaction. They want you to lash out at them so lashing out in a defensive emotional outburst means that they win. You gave them what they want. The same thing is true here. Gangrel simply wants to get a reaction and that’s exactly what Chrom gave him. Again, Gangrel wants to create the narrative that Ylisse is the aggressor here. That’s far from true but Chrom lashing out like he did gives him that excuse to make that claim. In that interaction Gangrel more or less came out the winner because he got what he wanted. He wanted Chrom to act lash out and give him an excuse to declare war as the defensive party and that’s exactly what happened. It’s the sole reason why he lied about Maribelle crossing the border and all that. He is looking for any excuse to pin Ylisse as the aggressor of this conflict to fuel his narrative and that is exactly what he got the moment Chrom decided to act.

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Think of it this way, the reason online trolls do what they do is to prompt a reaction. They want you to lash out at them so lashing out in a defensive emotional outburst means that they win. You gave them what they want. The same thing is true here. Gangrel simply wants to get a reaction and that’s exactly what Chrom gave him. Again, Gangrel wants to create the narrative that Ylisse is the aggressor here. That’s far from true but Chrom lashing out like he did gives him that excuse to make that claim. In that interaction Gangrel more or less came out the winner because he got what he wanted. He wanted Chrom to act lash out and give him an excuse to declare war as the defensive party and that’s exactly what happened. It’s the sole reason why he lied about Maribelle crossing the border and all that. He is looking for any excuse to pin Ylisse as the aggressor of this conflict to fuel his narrative and that is exactly what he got the moment Chrom decided to act.

He didn't get anything like that. I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Gangrel didn't need an excuse to declare war. He was already ordering his soldiers to kill Emmeryn, and they were going to do it. He didn't just use words to provoke Chrom into doing something he could paint as an aggressive act. He just outright declared war, attacked the royal family, and then lied about who started it the moment the royal family fought back. There was literally nothing Chrom could have done differently in this situation to give Gangrel less of an "excuse" for war aside from let those brigands attack Emmeryn.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Alastor15243

[Ottservia]

12 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

He didn't get anything like that. I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Gangrel didn't need an excuse to declare war. He was already ordering his soldiers to kill Emmeryn, and they were going to do it. He didn't just use words to provoke Chrom into doing something he could paint as an aggressive act. He just outright declared war, attacked the royal family, and then lied about who started it the moment the royal family fought back. There was literally nothing Chrom could have done differently in this situation to give Gangrel less of an "excuse" for war aside from let those brigands attack Emmeryn.

Well first of all he didn’t need to kill them. Secondly, Gangrel being the aggressor and lying about it is essentially the point. The fact is that Gangrel is a piece of shit. Like I said he’s just looking for an excuse to fuel his twisted narrative that Ylisse is the one at fault. He doesn’t care how it happens he just wants Chrom to attack. He’s basically begging for Chrom to attack him or his men because then he has the excuse he needs. Attacking him is essentially what he wants them to do and that’s what Chrom did. Chrom didn’t need to attack. He could’ve just played defensively or pulled his sister out of the way but he didn’t do either. He simply killed the thing that was in front of him. Gangrel wanted to create the narrative that Ylisse are the bad guys here to ignite more hate in the Plegian populace so that they would follow him and agree to his war and that’s exactly what happened.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Ottservia

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Well first of all he didn’t need to kill them. Secondly, Gangrel being the aggressor and lying about it is essentially the point. The fact is that Gangrel is a piece of shit. Like I said he’s just looking for an excuse to fuel his twisted narrative that Ylisse is the one at fault. He doesn’t care how it happens he just wants Chrom to attack. He’s basically begging for Chrom to attack him or his men because then he has the excuse he needs. Attacking him is essentially what he wants them to do and that’s what Chrom did. Chrom didn’t need to attack. He could’ve just played defensively or pulled his sister out of the way but he didn’t do either. He simply killed the thing that was in front of him. Gangrel wanted to create the narrative that Ylisse are the bad guys here to ignite more hate in the Plegian populace so that they would follow him and agree to his war. 

If all he needed was for Chrom to take a single Plegian life, context be damned, then Gangrel could have used the corpses of one of the hundreds of Plegian soldiers he sent over the border to pillage the various towns as bandits. It's literally Chrom's job to stop those people and he must have killed at least a hundred by this point in his capacity as commander of the Shepherds.

And I don't understand what exactly Chrom's actions enabled Gangrel to do. Gangrel's already pillaging villages and launching assassination attempts on royalty. What exactly was stopping Gangrel from declaring war if Chrom hadn't killed those soldiers?

[Samz707]

10 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

If all he needed was for Chrom to take a single Plegian life, context be damned, then Gangrel could have used the corpses of one of the hundreds of Plegian soldiers he sent over the border to pillage the various towns as bandits. It's literally Chrom's job to stop those people and he must have killed at least a hundred by this point in his capacity as commander of the Shepherds.

And I don't understand what exactly Chrom's actions enabled Gangrel to do. Gangrel's already pillaging villages and launching assassination attempts on royalty. What exactly was stopping Gangrel from declaring war if Chrom hadn't killed those soldiers?

Even if Chrom attacked first, wouldn't Gangrel just lie? like he already was doing with Maribelle?

[Alastor15243]

5 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Even if Chrom attacked first, wouldn't Gangrel just lie? like he already was doing with Maribelle?

Exactly. Gangrel's already willing to commit violence without provocation and lie about what provocation there was, so I don't see why on earth he needs this "justification". It's not like he's recording that attack out of context to plaster all over PNN or something. He has nothing but his own word that anything he claims happened actually happened, and if he's willing to lie, why does there even need to be a bit of truth to his story?

Edited December 17, 2020 by Alastor15243

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

If all he needed was for Chrom to take a single Plegian life, context be damned, then Gangrel could have used the corpses of one of the hundreds of Plegian soldiers he sent over the border to pillage the various towns as bandits. It's literally Chrom's job to stop those people and he must have killed at least a hundred by this point in his capacity as commander of the Shepherds.

The answer is simple. It makes for more effective storytelling and who’s to say that Gangrel wasn’t already doing that. He probably was in order to rally other Plegians to his cause. The job of the antagonist is to oppose the protagonist and that can’t happen if they don’t interact. This is a situation in which that occurs. If Gangrel could just do that, then we wouldn’t get these interactions and the story could not progress in the way it wants to. Doing it this way, allows the story to highlight the flaws of Chrom’s character that he later needs to grow from as well as showing how Gangrel and Chrom are supposed to foil each other. The story couldn’t do that if Gangrel just showed off some corpses to a crowd. And even then that’s kind of what he’s already doing. He raided a village. Maribelle tried to put a stop to it and that’s how this situation ended up happening in the first place. You have to think about it from a narrative perspective and the ideas it wants to get across and how it wants to do that. There is a reason why the story had to progress in this way. Instead of asking why and dismissing it try to figure out why by trying to understand the purpose behind it. 

 

13 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

And I don't understand what exactly Chrom's actions enabled Gangrel to do. Gangrel's already pillaging villages and launching assassination attempts on royalty. What exactly was stopping Gangrel from declaring war if Chrom hadn't killed those soldiers?

Again it makes for effective storytelling. It’s there to showcase the flaws in Chrom’s character(act first think later) as well as showcase how the protagonist and antagonist play off of one another as well as dispense much needed exposition to the audience. If you were to write it differently a lot of that would be lost. The story is trying to show its conflict and how that conflict is caused by and effect’s its characters. It cannot do that if they don’t create situations like this. 

[Alastor15243]

@Ottservia Justifying nonsensical behavior "in the name of making the story interesting" is a very dangerous game, and should be done with extreme care, because more often than not that's just an excuse writers use when they can't think of any sensible ways to get to their preconceived ideas of where the story should go. If you ever find yourself defending a story by saying that "if they acted rationally, there'd be no story", then that's generally a sign of a bad story, or at least one that's a flagrant excuse plot. Most stories can come up with better logic than that for why things happen.

[Ottservia]

17 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

@Ottservia Justifying nonsensical behavior "in the name of making the story interesting" is a very dangerous game, and should be done with extreme care, because more often than not that's just an excuse writers use when they can't think of any sensible ways to get to their preconceived ideas of where the story should go. If you ever find yourself defending a story by saying that "if they acted rationally, there'd be no story", then that's generally a sign of a bad story, or at least one that's a flagrant excuse plot. Most stories can come up with better logic than that for why things happen.

Then here’s my question to you. How would you rewrite it so that the scene gets across all the ideas it wants to while at the same tome being engaging and furthering the story’s conflict. This is what I mean when I say storytelling is inherently contrived because how else would you write this scene so that it accomplishes all those goals. This scene has multiple purposes. Like I said it’s to showcase the flaws in Chrom’s  character , how Gangrel is meant to challenge those flaws, dispense exposition to the audience to further their understanding of the conflict, as well as perpetuate that very conflict in a way that adds more tension and weight to it. That’s what this scene is supposed to do. How else would you rewrite it to make it better while also not losing any of those aspects. Again instead of asking why and dismissing it on the grounds of it not mattering or not making sense. Try to answer that question yourself by trying to understand what the story wants to accomplish.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Ottservia

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Then here’s my question to you. How would you rewrite it so that the scene gets across all the ideas it wants to while at the same tome being engaging and furthering the story’s conflict.

What are my restrictions? What am I allowed and not allowed to change? Do I have to work with the story's other numerous pre-established bad ideas while salvaging this one? Does Maribelle still have to be kidnapped?

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

What are my restrictions? What am I allowed and not allowed to change? Do I have to work with the story's other numerous pre-established bad ideas while salvaging this one? Does Maribelle still have to be kidnapped?

Basically your restrictions are that you are not allowed to change any of the story’s core ideas. Those being how the failures of the past effect the present and how acting on one’s hate and bitterness will only perpetuate the cycle of hatred. The story wants to showcase the flaws in Chrom’s ideals as well as showcase how Gangrel is meant to challenge those flaws. Chrom’s flaw is that he’s an action first ask questions later kind if person. That is a core aspect of his character you are not allowed to change. You also have to dispense the same exposition in a way that adds tension to that conflict. Gangrel is supposed to foil Chrom by being the direct opposite of Emmeryn in that he wants to instigate a war by dredging up the scars of the past. That is something you are also not allowed to change because that is core aspect of why he’s written that way. Basically you are not allowed to change the ideas themselves but rather how those ideas are executed and play out in the narrative cause if you change the ideas themselves you’re basically writing an entirely different story at that point and that’s not the goal here.

[Alastor15243]

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Basically your restrictions are that you are not allowed to change any of the story’s core ideas. Those being how the failures of the past effect the present and how acting on one’s hate and bitterness will only perpetuate the cycle of hatred.

Then I'd scrap this chapter entirely. We need a reason why Chrom acting recklessly would actually make things worse, and we need Chrom to actually act recklessly, and not the way literally any reasonable fighter would act in his situation. First off, it should take place in Plegia. Let's pull a leaf from Genealogy's book and have Chrom pull a Sigurd, invading a country after they crossed the border and kidnapped a prominent noble's blonde, staff-wielding daughter. Then let's have some buildup to this conflict by having another chapter or two beforehand showing Chrom fighting Plegian "bandits" and give them a nasty penchant for faking a surrender in order to launch a surprise attack and regain the advantage. So when he goes into Plegia to rescue Maribelle, he does wind up saving Maribelle, but at the cost of an entire border city's people bearing witness to the neighboring prince invading their territory, slaughtering the town guards in the city streets to get to a noble's house, and then having the guards shot directly in the head with arrow fire the second their commander tries to surrender. Now we have an entire city worth of unwitting propagandists for Gangrel's war effort, all because Chrom was so focused on saving Maribelle and getting everyone out alive that he never stopped to think about the terrible optics of his actions, however justified they were in context.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

In the Archanean lore, the one and only purpose of the Fire Emblem, also known as the Binding Shield, is to emit a protective energy that seals the earth dragons and keeps Tiki from going insane, because as the youngest dragon alive and the last dragon ever born, she was too young to be able to escape the inevitable descent into madness that awaited her people even after sealing her powers away in a dragonstone unless that shield's protective aura over the world kept her sane or she was in a coma.

And yeah, you heard that right: youngest dragon alive, and the last dragon ever born. That's another fun fact Awakening decided to shit on: in the Archanean lore, dragons aren't supposed to be able to have children anymore, so Nowi and Nah literally should not exist. And the reason they can't have children is the same reason they have to use dragonstones: a mysterious cataclysmic shift in the laws of physics in eons past messed with dragonkind's ability to function in this world, slowly rendering them sterile and driving them mad, with sealing their powers in dragonstones and living as humans being the only recourse they had to stave off the madness.

Now, however, Manaketes can suddenly have children again, but still need to use dragonstones, and the game never even tries to explain this, despite the fact that the species has still apparently almost completely died out and lost control of its only nation.

Except that even back in Mystery it stablished Tiki was born after Naga became a Manakete. So either Naga is an exception, or becoming Manaketes made them fertile again, or the sterilization was something that was only gradually afflicting dragonkind, not unlike the Degeneration. Could even have been a heralding symptom of worse stuff happening. Also, nothing is it stated of Tiki being the last born, only that she was recently born when she was put to sleep (though recently born is relative since she was a little over 10 years old when it happened). True, we don't see any other Manakete child in the interim, but nothing is stated of the contrary either.

Of course, Tiki's birth could be a whole different thing altogether. No mention of a father, is it? Could've been born out of parthenogenesis for all we know...

[Ottservia]

12 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Then I'd scrap this chapter entirely. We need a reason why Chrom acting recklessly would actually make things worse, and we need Chrom to actually act recklessly, and not the way literally any reasonable fighter would act in his situation. First off, it should take place in Plegia. Let's pull a leaf from Genealogy's book and have Chrom pull a Sigurd, invading a country after they crossed the border and kidnapped a prominent noble's blonde, staff-wielding daughter. Then let's have some buildup to this conflict by having another chapter or two beforehand showing Chrom fighting Plegian "bandits" and give them a nasty penchant for faking a surrender in order to launch a surprise attack and regain the advantage. So when he goes into Plegia to rescue Maribelle, he does wind up saving Maribelle, but at the cost of an entire border city's people bearing witness to the neighboring prince invading their territory, slaughtering the town guards in the city streets to get to a noble's house, and then having the guards shot directly in the head with arrow fire the second their commander tries to surrender. Now we have an entire city worth of unwitting propagandists for Gangrel's war effort, all because Chrom was so focused on saving Maribelle and getting everyone out alive that he never stopped to think about the terrible optics of his actions, however justified they were in context.

Alright, that’s fair enough. The only thing I feel like you forgot was to show how Gangrel and Chrom are supposed to foil each other and highlight that conflict as well as the exposition around Chrom’s father and the Fire Emblem. But that can be easily inserted in the dialogue between chapters. But yeah I can definitely see this working. As it stands though I don’t think the flaws are as bad as you make them out to be though that’s just a matter of personal preference at that point.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Ottservia

[Emperor Hardin]

Hey its been a very long time and its great to see you again.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Especially when, according to the wiki, the country of Plegia was founded by Grimleal.

It seems the Grimleal founded the country, but lost power, it isn't explained well..like many things in Awakening.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Also, I'm getting conflicting information about Gangrel's role in Grimleal...ism...? I could've sworn he was the only thing keeping the Grimleal out of power in the country, but apparently he actually made Grimleal...ism... mandatory and heavily popularized it? I am very, very confused. Do any supports shine light on this?

Gangrel's motivations in particular are infamously inconsistent, but the picture painted in suppports and the Art of Awakening is alot like Arvis relationship with the Loptyrians:

1. Grimleal find an angry and crazy criminal on the streets, they prop him up and help him attain power over the country.
2. As part of the deal he made, the now King Gangrel gives the Grimleal almost absolute power to send inquisitions to persecute and oppress Plegian citizens into joining the Grimleal among other things, thus setting the stage for Grima's revival.
3. Gangrel is basically just power-mad and has no real motivation or beliefs, he's just with the Grimleal for conveniences sake and knows they're using him as well .

39 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Except that even back in Mystery it stablished Tiki was born after Naga became a Manakete.

Where was that directly established?

Edited December 17, 2020 by Emperor Hardin