Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Emperor Hardin]

3 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Right, right, I remember seeing that very early in the morning when I checked out the thread updates after randomly waking up. Totally forgot about that by the time I woke up for real.

That hadn't occurred to me. I assumed they were talking about the war in Shadow Dragon, but obviously that's impossible given how old the assassins are and how young they were when they started getting raised.

...How the fuck old is Eremiyah supposed to be, then? She barely looks a day over 20.

Eremiya should at the very least, be age 40. Given she was already brainwashed and killed Clarisse's parents when she was too young to remember them.

Her brainwashing also causes plot holes as unlike Hardin who did have some deeply buried jealously issues, she just goes from loving children to laughing when seeing them die.

I get the impression the only reason Eremiya looks good is because they wanted to sexualize Eremiya and enforce "Beautiful people have beautiful souls."

[Samz707]

8 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Eremiya should at the very least, be age 40. Given she was already brainwashed and killed Clarisse's parents when she was too young to remember them.

Her brainwashing also causes plot holes as unlike Hardin who did have some deeply buried jealously issues, she just goes from loving children to laughing when seeing them die.

I get the impression the only reason Eremiya looks good is because they wanted to sexualize Eremiya and enforce "Beautiful people have beautiful souls."

The good ol' FE trope of "If you're ugly, you're probably evil."

Maybe healing magic makes for really good skin-care who knows.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Samz707

[Interdimensional Observer]

13 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

...How the fuck old is Eremiyah supposed to be, then? She barely looks a day over 20.

Not sure if I'd agree with that:

No visible signs of middle/old age in her face, true. Maybe it's the haircut and bishop's hat and veil that makes her look somewhat older to me?

That said, female characters aren't usually allowed to look old in games. Mothers can look as pretty if not more so than their daughters.

[Emperor Hardin]

6 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

The good ol' FE trope of "If you're ugly, you're probably evil."

Maybe healing magic makes for really good skin-care who knows.

This is also why so many writers for FE flat out refuse to have evil women.

6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Not sure if I'd agree with that:

No visible signs of middle/old age in her face, true. Maybe it's the haircut and bishop's hat and veil that makes her look somewhat older to me?

That said, female characters aren't usually allowed to look old in games. Mothers can look as pretty if not more so than their daughters.

In anime aging, characters above 17 rarely have eyes as big as Eremiya's, FE adheres to this rule...with the notable exception of Eremiya.

The latter is covered in the quote above, Eremiya is cute so she has to be a good person. In the FE12 spoiler thread, long before the full translation came out, everyone predicted Eremiya would be a good person based on her appearance, one poster who was attracted to her, even cheered when it was revealed she wasn't really evil.

[Axie]

i am lost i think?

i do agree, as i have said before, with the point raised that minor logical inconsistencies in a script do not qualify as bad writing or storytelling and that focus really should be on the rules the built world sets for itself. however, that said, awakening fails at that at basically every turn lol. the chrom apologising thing i actually think is kind of minor in the grand scheme of why awakening's writing is busted, but it's still stupid. i don't even think it's necessarily out of character for chrom, i just think it's stupid that the game doesn't care to question emmeryn's ways, and specially not through chrom. it made for a pretty anemic first third of the story.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, Axie said:

i am lost i think?

i do agree, as i have said before, with the point raised that minor logical inconsistencies in a script do not qualify as bad writing or storytelling and that focus really should be on the rules the built world sets for itself. however, that said, awakening fails at that at basically every turn lol. the chrom apologising thing i actually think is kind of minor in the grand scheme of why awakening's writing is busted, but it's still stupid. i don't even think it's necessarily out of character for chrom, i just think it's stupid that the game doesn't care to question emmeryn's ways, and specially not through chrom. it made for a pretty anemic first third of the story.

Also 

Spoiler

Emmeryn basically ends up wrong, mass murder was needed to stop the Grimleal in the end.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[ping]

18 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

This is also why so many writers for FE flat out refuse to have evil women.

Now I have to see how many evil FE women I can think of I know that Jugdral has a couple, but I'm too unfamiliar with those games.

• FE6 has none, I'm pretty sure. Both Brunya and the pegasus rider boss are portrayed sympathetically.
• FE7 has Sonia. It's debatable how much free will she has as a totally-not-a-morph, but she is acting a lot more cruel than Limstella. Luckily, Sonia was created to be a honey trap, so she can be hot despite being arguably the most evil in this list.
• Selena is sympathetic. No evil women in SacSto.
• Petrine, who is definitely more bloodthirsty than I'd consider reasonable. Not super high up on the evil-o-meter though, I'd say.
• Can we count Ashera? Can't think of any other women who are even just antagonistic, unless we cound Miccy. All the senators are dudes.
• Camilla, although the writing disagrees. Peri, although "woman-child mass murderer" only counts as mildly eccentric in Fateslandia.

[Samz707]

5 minutes ago, ping said:

Now I have to see how many evil FE women I can think of I know that Jugdral has a couple, but I'm too unfamiliar with those games.

• FE6 has none, I'm pretty sure. Both Brunya and the pegasus rider boss are portrayed sympathetically.
• FE7 has Sonia. It's debatable how much free will she has as a totally-not-a-morph, but she is acting a lot more cruel than Limstella. Luckily, Sonia was created to be a honey trap, so she can be hot despite being arguably the most evil in this list.
• Selena is sympathetic. No evil women in SacSto.
• Petrine, who is definitely more bloodthirsty than I'd consider reasonable. Not super high up on the evil-o-meter though, I'd say.
• Can we count Ashera? Can't think of any other women who are even just antagonistic, unless we cound Miccy. All the senators are dudes.
• Camilla, although the writing disagrees. Peri, although "woman-child mass murderer" only counts as mildly eccentric in Fateslandia.

Don't forget Ursula, she was pretty evil last time I think. (She at least seemed more open to evil acts, I doubt even Linus/Loyd would be willing to try to kill Zephiel since he's a kid if I remember right.)

Also I guess if you wanna stretch it, there has to be at least some evil women in the amount of generic pegasus riders you kill.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Samz707

[Emperor Hardin]

35 minutes ago, ping said:

Now I have to see how many evil FE women I can think of I know that Jugdral has a couple, but I'm too unfamiliar with those games.

• FE6 has none, I'm pretty sure. Both Brunya and the pegasus rider boss are portrayed sympathetically.
• FE7 has Sonia. It's debatable how much free will she has as a totally-not-a-morph, but she is acting a lot more cruel than Limstella. Luckily, Sonia was created to be a honey trap, so she can be hot despite being arguably the most evil in this list.
• Selena is sympathetic. No evil women in SacSto.
• Petrine, who is definitely more bloodthirsty than I'd consider reasonable. Not super high up on the evil-o-meter though, I'd say.
• Can we count Ashera? Can't think of any other women who are even just antagonistic, unless we cound Miccy. All the senators are dudes.
• Camilla, although the writing disagrees. Peri, although "woman-child mass murderer" only counts as mildly eccentric in Fateslandia.

The writing disagreeing about a character being evil means I personally won't count them.

33 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Don't forget Ursula, she was pretty evil last time I think. (She at least seemed more open to evil acts, I doubt even Linus/Loyd would be willing to try to kill Zephiel since he's a kid if I remember right.)

Also I guess if you wanna stretch it, there has to be at least some evil women in the amount of generic pegasus riders you kill.

Its generally after FE10, that writers stopped having evil women period.

For me to count someone as evil, there needs to be a characterization, first. So someone like Pamela who murders Mahnya and mocks her family would count as an evil character despite appearing only once, but Generic Pegasus Knights would not count as they don't have any dialogue.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

If I recall correctly, it was the despair Eremiya felt when her first orphanage burned down that left her emotionally vulnerable to Gharnef's manipulation. So, not too dissimilar to the Hardin situation. Just changing what caused them to be emotionally despairing.

Want the epitome of evil woman in FE? Jugdral's Hilda. Right there.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Emperor Hardin]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

If I recall correctly, it was the despair Eremiya felt when her first orphanage burned down that left her emotionally vulnerable to Gharnef's manipulation. So, not too dissimilar to the Hardin situation. Just changing what caused them to be emotionally despairing.

She's sad about seeing children dying, so she's now happy to see children dying..

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

She's sad about seeing children dying, so she's now happy to see children dying..

That's what brainwashing may do to ya, aye.

[Alastor15243]

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

She's sad about seeing children dying, so she's now happy to see children dying..

I mean in fairness, same happened to Hardin. He's heartbroken to not truly have Nyna, but then he's happy to throw her away once corrupted in that moment if weakness.

[Emperor Hardin]

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's what brainwashing may do to ya, aye.

The other brainwashing within Archanea was bringing up deeply hidden desires within the subject, Eremiya entirely changes her entire persona for no reason at all and displays zero of the symptoms displayed by the other characters. Its terrible writing and I'm not going to read your next post defending this poorly written character.

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I mean in fairness, same happened to Hardin. He's heartbroken to not truly have Nyna, but then he's happy to throw her away once corrupted in that moment if weakness.

Way deep inside, there was some anger that she didn't return his feelings and feeling that she led him on (Boah only told Marth about his actions). Eremiya was depressed children died due to something obviously out of their hands, but now is happy to see children die just because.

It'd only make sense if pre-brainwashed Eremiya secretly had feelings of anger towards children.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The other brainwashing within Archanea was bringing up deeply hidden desires within the subject, Eremiya entirely changes her entire persona for no reason at all and displays zero of the symptoms displayed by the other characters. Its terrible writing and I'm not going to read your next post defending this poorly written character.

Because there is a key difference: Hardin's manipulation was in part defined by the Darksphere. The Darksphere itself had also amplified Gharnef's feelings of jealousy over not being chosen to wield Aura, hence warping him into the man we see in game.

Meanwhile, Eremiya's manipulation is closer to what Gharnef did with Tiki: he used her fear of abandonment to manipulate her as well as bring her under mind control. So it's fine how he did it with Tiki but not Eremiya?

Edited December 20, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Emperor Hardin]

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Because there is a key difference: Hardin's manipulation was in part defined by the Darksphere. The Darksphere itself had also amplified Gharnef's feelings of jealousy over not being chosen to wield Aura, hence warping him into the man we see in game.

Meanwhile, Eremiya's manipulation is closer to what Gharnef did with Tiki: he used her fear of abandonment to manipulate her as well as bring her under mind control. So it's fine how he did it with Tiki but not Eremiya?

It never says that, Eremiya lacks the mind controlled eyes given to TIki and the priestesses, as well as the robotic/katakana speaking tone.

The children didn't abandon her, they were murdered. Her characterization makes no sense and you're just making up logic to defend poor writing.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Emperor Hardin said:

It never says that, Eremiya lacks the mind controlled eyes given to TIki and the priestesses

The children didn't abandon her, they were murdered. Her characterization makes no sense and you're just making up logic to defend poor writing.

Tiki's fear of abandonment, not Eremiya's children.

Point is, Gharnef exploited the emotional vulnerabilities of both to have them under his control.

[Emperor Hardin]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Tiki's fear of abandonment, not Eremiya's children.

Point is, Gharnef exploited the emotional vulnerabilities of both to have them under his control.

If that was the case, she'd have the eyes and the katakana speaking style, which she doesn't.

The other characters who were corrupted in Eremiya's manner act nothing like her so she breaks the rules simply for a shoehorned sob story, again you're just defending horrible writing by making up facts.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

If that was the case, she'd have the eyes and the katakana speaking style, which she doesn't.

The other characters who were corrupted in Eremiya's manner act noting like her, again you're just defending horrible writing by making up facts.

Can't I be wrong? Okay, not an outright brainwash or mind control in the same sense as what happened to the others happened. Just old fashioned manipulation and trickery to make Eremiya change her tune.

She's emotionally distraught. People in RL can have their behavior and thoughts change under such duress.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Emperor Hardin]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Can't I be wrong? Okay, not an outright brainwash or mind control in the same sense as what happened to the others happened. Just old fashioned manipulation and trickery to make Eremiya change her tune.

She's emotionally distraught. People in RL can have their behavior and thoughts change under such duress.

How could she be manipulated from being someone who sincerely loved children with all her heart to someone who smiles whilst torturing kids and abandoning them to certain death?

Not to that complete, any psychologist will tell you that. 

Anyhow I'm not going to respond to your posts because you keep changing your story to do anything you can to defend whats clearly plain sloppy writing.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

How could she be manipulated from being someone who sincerely loved children with all her heart to someone who smiles whilst torturing kids and abandoning them to certain death?

Not to that complete, any psychologist will tell you that. 

Anyhow I'm not going to respond to your posts because you keep changing your story to do anything you can to defend whats clearly plain sloppy writing.

Well, this world isn't like theirs, to begin with.

Also, stop with the false accusations. Just say my guesses are wrong, don't start throwing falsehoods.

[Emperor Hardin]

47 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, this world isn't like theirs, to begin with.

Also, stop with the false accusations. Just say my guesses are wrong, don't start throwing falsehoods.

No adult would change that much due to just one traumatic event as Alastor pointed out.

The problem I feel is you keep changing your argument, you state its canon that Eremiya's was hypnotized like Tiki was, then when whats disproven you switch your story and say its simply the power of suggestion.

And the whole time,  I've been in this topic which to begin with is going to deal with criticism,  you've tried to argue with any criticism offered at any game when this clearly isn't the topic for that. If you think Eremiya makes perfect sense, make a topic about it.

[Acacia Sgt]

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No adult would change that much due to just one traumatic event as Alastor pointed out.

The problem I feel is you keep changing your argument, you state its canon that Eremiya's was hypnotized like Tiki was, then when whats disproven you switch your story and say its simply the power of suggestion.

And the whole time,  I've been in this topic which to begin with is going to deal with criticism,  you've tried to argue with any criticism offered at any game when this clearly isn't the topic for that. If you think Eremiya makes perfect sense, make a topic about it.

How are we qualifying this? On her own? With Gharnef's manipulations? Because there is a clear difference there, and even then no case is ever the same. Eremiya isn't Tiki or Hardin, the only thing they have in common is Gharnef exploiting what emotional vulnerabilities or distresses they had.

See, that's the thing. At no point I stated it was canon. I only brought up brainwashing. You disproved that since she doesn't have the no-pupils portrait that is presently the case as any other case of mind control used in the Archanea games. Clearly, I was wrong, and made no effort to dispute that. After that, I simply brought up another possibility. Because it's clear Gharnef did something to her, since as you stated, it's implausible for her to go from A to B if it's very likely she's still acting mostly on her own free will. But again, we can't ignore we have a clear agent involved, that is Gharnef. Who has a history of doing stuff like this.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Eltosian Kadath]

11 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Poor execution would be a character saying he was flawed when the story never presents him as such(I.e. Alm). Cause at least with Chrom he is saying that he was wrong and the story in that moment tries to portray him as such(from things like Gangrel’s response, his dialogue in the scene, and Emmeryn’s scolding).

That is exactly what is going on here, Chrom is saying that it is wrong, and the game fails to show us that he is. The two situations are the same, the only difference is one you subjectively believe is ok, and the other you subjectively believe isn't.

 

10 hours ago, Ottservia said:

1. I was using that as a general example not at all related to the situation that started it. It was just as a general example for my argument.

11 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Every story follows a different set of rules. There’s no universal standard so trying to apply one doesn’t work. Stories need to be judged on a case by case basis.

These two statements clearly contradict each other. If you are judging stories by a case-by-case basis, where no universal standard applies, than a general example has no value in such an argument.

 

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Way deep inside, there was some anger that she didn't return his feelings and feeling that she led him on (Boah only told Marth about his actions). Eremiya was depressed children died due to something obviously out of their hands, but now is happy to see children die just because.

It'd only make sense if pre-brainwashed Eremiya secretly had feelings of anger towards children.

I don't think these two are as dissimilar as you seem to think. The way down inside secret wish of Eremiya is that she wished she didn't have to care about the children. I see Eremiya as one of those people who are too empathetic, who felt such a grief and pain for those children's suffering that she did everything in her power to help them (by founding an orphanage, and dedicating her life to it), and when they suffer despite her best effort, when she was powerless to help, she wishes she didn't have to care. I don't know if that is something you have ever had to experience, where the plight of another made you feel such pain that you wished you didn't care, but I know that is a one of those sickening secret wishes that I have felt before. Eremiya no longer cares about the children, she doesn't care if they die, if they fail her they might as well; if making them suffer brings her even the slightest amusement, or makes them more useful, then why wouldn't she? She don't treat them like children, but like puppets, things to be used, to amuse, and when they no longer work, to be thrown away.

 

[Etrurian emperor]

22 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

and having interesting intentions shouldn't excuse shoddy execution.

It frequently does though.

Hideo Kojima is widely considered one of the best writers in the industry and his entire MO can be summed up as ''interesting intentions but shoddy execution''. The man consistently has among the most interesting ideas in the industry and the equally consistently the most clumsy ways of implementing them. 

Within Fire Emblem we see it in Three Houses. The general consensus is that the story is pretty good and a return to form. However there are individual moments that are so poorly done they wouldn't feel out of place in Fates. I feel those things are judged less harshly precisely because we can see the intentions behind it. Meanwhile I feel things like the Deeprealm nonsense or the Hoshidans not being your family after all gets judged extra harshly because we can so easily see that those mistakes are the result of bad intentions.