Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Ottservia said:

 

I could say the same thing about your arguments in that they could be used to nitpick absolutely everything. I’m not gonna get into the rest of your argument as it’s pointless considering the original script which is in-line with my initial reading and interpretation of the scene. 

But that's just another one of your weak arguments. To dismiss any criticism you don't like as nitpicks when it's not. A character making reference to a group of characters that aren't in the scene is not a nitpick. That's an actual problem with the scene and removing the line referencing them would make the story better. A character doing what is pretty much the only right choice yet being treated as if he's being rash and starting a war is a contradiction. A character not existing at all until the moment he betrays the party and is then immediately removed from the plot is a very poorly implemented element. These are things bringing the story down and they do matter. If the Hierarch had appeared in prior scenes and been shown to be a character close to Chrom and co his betrayal and subsequent death would have been better. If Chrom had done something actually rash instead of protecting the life of his monarch and sister it would have been better. If Emmeryn didn't talk about the reaction of a group of people that are non existent then it would be better. These are things that could be changed to be made better. They're not nitpicks, they're the meat and bone of the story and they keep happening in Awakening, all over. Dismissing it by saying it's a nitpick or there's no possible way to change them is a bad argument as it's ignoring the issue. Particularly in the case here of Emmeryn's line which we know can and in fact is non existent in other languages of the game.

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/22/2020 at 11:20 AM, Alastor15243 said:

...Ah yes, so, since this game has no light magic users, all light-magic-using einherjar are retconned to dark magic users... and put in new outfits accordingly. This of course results in all the female light magic users being in bikinis (and Micaiah getting artwork in one as a result)... as well as Oliver suddenly being a buff shirtless guy.

Not Sephiran, who is a Sage.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, like I said, he really should've procced lethality.

Or give them something like 25 strength. Anyway, this proves that FE in general utilizes gameplay and story segregation to extents that are simultaneously amusing and stupefying.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I just... don't understand what the goal of any of this shit is. It feels like a really clumsy and ill-placed effort to just establish some foreshadowing for certain elements of the Grimleal arc, but... Validar attacking them here is just so weird.

It's probably an attempt to remove someone they know is gonna prove to be an obstacle to them later.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

I have some time to work something out, but yes, this game has showed me that however painful it is, balance is something I have to take into account.

Speaking of, what are you gonna do about New Mystery? Because that one is one of the most unbalanced games in the series; I'd seen it considered right down there with Revelation and Radiant Dawn on one blog.

Anyway, I don't have too much to say, because this game 's Lunatic is about as fun as watching paint dry. I'd have more fun playing World of Light on hard mode or something.

[Ottservia]

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

No, not remotely. We haven't seen a single fucking action from Chrom that was bloodthirsty or driven by hatred or a desire for revenge

That’s kind of the entire point of chapter 10 at least in regards to his character. They even outright state this in heroes. It’s a little retroactive I know but that’s what they were going for and it certainly makes a lot of sense. It’s why I tend to say Chrom’s character is not that dissimilar to Dimitri. And if you want anymore evidence within awakening itself, I’d suggest playing Gangrel’s paralogue when you get the chance. The recruitment dialogue Chrom has with Gangrel basically kind of summarizes his entire character arc during the first 11 chapters. 

 

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

A character doing what is pretty much the only right choice yet being treated as if he's being rash and starting a war is a contradiction. A character not existing at all until the moment he betrays the party and is then immediately removed from the plot is a very poorly implemented element.

Not necessarily, the problem you’re approaching that scene with is that you seem to think that scene is in anyway supposed to be important when it’s not. Not even the game thinks he’s an important character. Like not even the characters remember his death. Like if you were supposed to feel anything from his death then Y’know they probably would’ve made the effort to make his death a little more grandiose and have characters react to it. But no, he just kind of dies and that’s that. He doesn’t even have a name or a unique portrait. If his death was meant prompt any other reaction other than a slightly miffed ambivalence then they failed horribly. Like here’s the thing if they wanted to you care about his death in a more meaningful way they very much could’ve put in the effort to do so on that I agree but they didn’t. They could have but the fact that they didn’t only means the character is insignificant. Like if that’s what they wanted to do they could’ve done it. But they didn’t want to do it. The character only existed to fulfill an extremely minor roll in injecting some nuance to the conflict and that’s what he did. He doesn’t need to be anything more than that. It’s like criticizing a Mario game for not having a deep story. Mario games had no intention of telling deep stories. The story in a mario game is mostly just a backdrop. They’re there to give the player an in-universe reason to go on the adventure and nothing more. the hierarch wasn’t supposed to be important. He fulfilled his role in the story and that’s all he really needed to do. If there’s one thing long running shounen manga have taught me it’s that not every character needs to be important or fully fleshed out. Sometimes a character is there just to act as a plot device or whatever and that’s completely fine. It’s not like the story is hindered by their irrelevancy. They serve their purpose and that’s all they really need to do.

 

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If Chrom had done something actually rash instead of protecting the life of his monarch and sister it would have been better. If Emmeryn didn't talk about the reaction of a group of people that are non existent then it would be better.

Well that’s just a matter of “show don’t tell” which isn’t an absolute. “Showing” isn’t the end all be all. You can “tell” just fine. The Chrom being reckless example I’ll grant could’ve been done better but as it is I don’t think it’s poorly handled. It accomplished what it set out to do and that’s all it really needed to do. The “No reaction” line again I’ll somewhat grant but again “Show don’t tell” isn’t the be all end all. And, as we just went over, the original Japanese script doesn’t have anything to do with “No reaction” more so with how Emmeryn is finally realizing where she failed and wants to pass the torch to Chrom. That’s more the fault of the localization team than the writers. It accomplishes what it sets out to do and that’s all it really needed to do. 

 

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dismissing it by saying it's a nitpick or there's no possible way to change them is a bad argument as it's ignoring the issue. Particularly in the case here of Emmeryn's line which we know can and in fact is non existent in other languages of the game

Well here’s the problem you keep running into though. You keep trying to apply rules to this story that had no intention of following those rules to begin with. Again it’s like criticizing a mario game for not having deep stories. Like it had no intention of telling a deep intricate story. It never wanted to. Again, maybe showing a little more in those cases could’ve made the story better but as it stands both scenes still accomplish what they set out to do and that’s totally fine. The only two universal rules in regards to storytelling(at least as far as I can tell) are:

1. Every story needs to have an ongoing conflict to drive the story forward. 
 

2. every story needs to follow basic cause and effect. In that, one plot point should effect the next.

Other than those two rules(and even the second one is extremely loose), every other “rule” is simply a guideline. A story doesn’t need to follow your rules. It follows its own rules. And even those rules can be broken with sufficient explanation. It’s all a matter of if the story accomplishes what it sets out to do which I believe awakening does for the most part.

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s kind of the entire point of chapter 10 at least in regards to his character. They even outright state this in heroes. It’s a little retroactive I know but that’s what they were going for and it certainly makes a lot of sense. It’s why I tend to say Chrom’s character is not that dissimilar to Dimitri. And if you want anymore evidence within awakening itself, I’d suggest playing Gangrel’s paralogue when you get the chance. The recruitment dialogue Chrom has with Gangrel basically kind of summarizes his entire character arc during the first 11 chapters. 

Except it's not. They're (ostensibly, paralogues and open world map notwithstanding) fleeing for their lives and given two options: surrender or fight. And it's made clear that it isn't just Chrom who thinks the former is a terrible option. Frederick does too, and nobody speaks up to say they should take Mustafa's offer. And he never decides after the fact that he made the wrong decision. He's not killing people out of vengeance because he doesn't believe them when they say they don't want to fight. He's killing people to stop his entire army from being captured and put at the mercy of a lunatic tyrant.

And what do you mean they say it in Heroes? I stopped playing that came ages ago so I'm not aware of what you're talking about.

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

And what do you mean they say it in Heroes? I stopped playing that came ages ago so I'm not aware of what you're talking about.

There’s a Forging bonds conversation with Mustafa where Chrom basically ends up apologizing to him because he shouldn’t have lashed out in anger at him or his men the way he did. Plegia was not to blame for his sister’s death Gangrel was but he blamed them anyway. It’s pretty good. 
 

https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/Renewed_Resolve

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

There’s a Forging bonds conversation with Mustafa where Chrom basically ends up apologizing to him because he shouldn’t have lashed out in anger at him or his men the way he did. Plegia was not to blame for his sister’s death Gangrel was but he blamed them anyway. It’s pretty good. 
 

https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/Renewed_Resolve

The fact that they even had to do this to get their narrative across pretty soundly demonstrates the writing shortcomings of this game.

[Samz707]

21 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s kind of the entire point of chapter 10 at least in regards to his character. They even outright state this in heroes. It’s a little retroactive I know but that’s what they were going for and it certainly makes a lot of sense. It’s why I tend to say Chrom’s character is not that dissimilar to Dimitri. And if you want anymore evidence within awakening itself, I’d suggest playing Gangrel’s paralogue when you get the chance. The recruitment dialogue Chrom has with Gangrel basically kind of summarizes his entire character arc during the first 11 chapters.

Heroes got Caeda's character wrong from what I hear and regardless, Its a retcon from a non canon game.

Chrom and his group are defending themselves from an enemy group who essentially tells them to bring it on when they refuse to surrender to the mercy of a king who  basically said he wanted to genocide them.

Even if Chrom was to suddenly confess to wanting to genocide Plegia or something in Awakening, Frankly I'd disregard that because in a story that's a mess with 6 writers, Chrom never, once actually expresses a desire to genocide Plegia like Gangrel does with Yissle, it is quite frankly, a lot of pretentious pegasus dumb the whole "Chrom is just like Gangel" stuff is a bunch of nonsensical stuff trying to force a contrived message, it would frankly just come off as Chrom being out of character for the sake of a pretentious writer.

The pretentious writer(s) would probably try to pull this crap with Eliwood if he was there instead of Chrom.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Samz707

[Ottservia]

Just now, Alastor15243 said:

The fact that they even had to do this to get their narrative across pretty soundly demonstrates the writing shortcomings of this game.

There’s still plenty of evidence of this in awakening itself though. As I said a lot of what’s said there is also said in Gangrel’s recruitment conversations. Albeit slightly differently but the overall point is the same(Chrom even states that it would do him no greater pleasure than to stick another sword in Gangrel’s gut but he doesn’t because killing him wouldn’t do either of them any good). Even so, the map clearly tries to paint the Plegians as sympathetic in that chapter. The point of chapter 10 in general is that the fact they are fighting each other is more or less meaningless because they shouldn’t be fighting. Both sides desire peace and both sides dislike Gangrel. They shouldn’t be fighting but they still have their reasons to. Chrom and the shepards fight because they have to get away and to avenge their fallen leader. The Plegians fight out of fear and loyalty to their superiors. It’s supposed to showcase the tragedy of what war is in that everyone is a victim. And even beyond that Chrom’s bitterness towards those who would harm his sister was an established character trait since chapter 2. So it’s not like the idea is nonexistent with awakening’s story itself. It’s just not very overt with it. Like you kinda have to think about it a little bit and that’s fine.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Maybe it's a Holy Roman Empire situation, Valm is descended from Alm's One Kingdom in spirit, attempting to claim the authority of history, only. Although Rome was infamous for having short-lived dynasties at best, the Eastern Roman Empire was better at dynastic rule, but that too had its limits. The Ottomans who dealt the coup de grace to Constantinople so I read had a single dynasty lasting over 600 years, and the Zhou Dynasty of China was 790 years, which I would imagine are a very very very good runs for dynasties that serves as more than a figurehead. 

It is possible that Valm's rulers have Alm's and his wife's blood in them 2000 years is enough time for that blood to dilute throughout the nobility and somehow down into the lower classes. But lineal descent from an unbroken chain of the sons of Alm is not very likely.

 

As likely as Chrom being descended from Marth...

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

 

 

Not necessarily, the problem you’re approaching that scene with is that you seem to think that scene is in anyway supposed to be important when it’s not.

Yes, because every scene in a story should be important. It should be accomplishing something. Plot progression, character development or even humour. Otherwise it has no reason that exist and is better off cut. The hierarch in particular here would literally make the story better by not existing. The Plegian army just finding them would actually work better (they've already pursued Cordelia out here) with, what is quite frankly, a lame excuse.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Not even the game thinks he’s an important character. Like not even the characters remember his death. Like if you were supposed to feel anything from his death then Y’know they probably would’ve made the effort to make his death a little more grandiose and have characters react to it. But no, he just kind of dies and that’s that. He doesn’t even have a name or a unique portrait. If his death was meant prompt any other reaction other than a slightly miffed ambivalence then they failed horribly. Like here’s the thing if they wanted to you care about his death in a more meaningful way they very much could’ve put in the effort to do so on that I agree but they didn’t. They could have but the fact that they didn’t only means the character is insignificant.

Yes, that is the way it's treated in the story, it shouldn't be though. This is a man that helped Emmeryn rule the country when she was a literal child. It's like imagine in Path of Radiance we had another Griel Mercenary who betrays them and is unceremoniously killed off. We didn't need that because Daein was already pursuing them. And having a character introduced and killed off without any of the people who knew him blink at all raises way more problems than it solves. The fact that the Hierarch isn't important is the whole issue. He has no business being in this story at all.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

It’s like criticizing a Mario game for not having a deep story. Mario games had no intention of telling deep stories. The story in a mario game is mostly just a backdrop. They’re there to give the player an in-universe reason to go on the adventure and nothing more. the hierarch wasn’t supposed to be important. He fulfilled his role in the story and that’s all he really needed to do.

That's not a valid comparison at all. Yes, Mario isn't trying to tell a serious story, Awakening is. This is one again a terrible argument that could be used to justify anything. Rudolf's plan doesn't make any sense? Well Shadows of Valentia wasn't trying to tell a sensical story so don't judge it.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

If there’s one thing long running shounen manga have taught me it’s that not every character needs to be important or fully fleshed out. Sometimes a character is there just to act as a plot device or whatever and that’s completely fine. It’s not like the story is hindered by their irrelevancy. They serve their purpose and that’s all they really need to do.

Not every character needs to be fully fledged out, but every character does need to be important. If you want to be a writer this is something that it is absolutely critical you understand.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

 

Well that’s just a matter of “show don’t tell” which isn’t an absolute. “Showing” isn’t the end all be all. You can “tell” just fine. The Chrom being reckless example I’ll grant could’ve been done better but as it is I don’t think it’s poorly handled. It accomplished what it set out to do and that’s all it really needed to do. The “No reaction” line again I’ll somewhat grant but again “Show don’t tell” isn’t the be all end all. And, as we just went over, the original Japanese script doesn’t have anything to do with “No reaction” more so with how Emmeryn is finally realizing where she failed and wants to pass the torch to Chrom. That’s more the fault of the localization team than the writers. It accomplishes what it sets out to do and that’s all it really needed to do. 

I agree that show don't tell is not an absolute, but it also still does mean something. What/when to show and what/when to tell is important. Saying it's not the be all and end all is ignoring the use that advice does have. These are elements of the story that are done poorly. Were they done better, the story would be better.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Well here’s the problem you keep running into though. You keep trying to apply rules to this story that had no intention of following those rules to begin with. Again it’s like criticizing a mario game for not having deep stories. Like it had no intention of telling a deep intricate story. It never wanted to. Again, maybe showing a little more in those cases could’ve made the story better but as it stands both scenes still accomplish what they set out to do and that’s totally fine.

Your argument now boils down to we shouldn't criticisze Awakening because it has no intention of being a quality story.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

The only two universal rules in regards to storytelling(at least as far as I can tell) are:

1. Every story needs to have an ongoing conflict to drive the story forward. 
 

Nope. Not necessarly. Unless you get really pedantic with the meaning of conflict (so pedantic anything can be conflict and thus nothing is). Your into Japanese stuff? Research into Kishōtenketsu.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

2. every story needs to follow basic cause and effect. In that, one plot point should effect the next.

Well generally yes, but it should also do it well.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Other than those two rules(and even the second one is extremely loose), every other “rule” is simply a guideline. A story doesn’t need to follow your rules. It follows its own rules. And even those rules can be broken with sufficient explanation. It’s all a matter of if the story accomplishes what it sets out to do which I believe awakening does for the most part.

So we shouldn't criticisze Awakening because it never intended to be a work of quality worth criticizing. No, it was, it is not Mario.

[Alastor15243]

Yeah, @Ottservia, I really have to agree with @Jotari here. Honestly, your arguments in defense of Awakening's numerous flaws almost amount to invalidating the concept of critiquing fiction in and of itself. And... I think you should really give a long and hard thought about the fact that that is how far you have to go to convince yourself that Awakening isn't a bad story: by basically making the standards for a bad story outrageously hard to meet.

Like, okay, let's put it another way: is there a conventionally-praised Fire Emblem story that you personally think actually isn't that good due to your own metric of how you judge whether a story is well-or-poorly-made?

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And yes, I have incidentally wound up comparing Emmeryn to the founder of a major religion, which considering her martyrdom and its stated impact, might not be entirely incorrect. Who knows if an Emmeryn sect of WhateverIsWorshippedInYlisseism arose to prominence in the years that followed her death?

A potentially fascinating plot point, if if this game had time to do even one of its story arcs with the tiniest amount of depth.

[Ottservia]

49 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Like, okay, let's put it another way: is there a conventionally-praised Fire Emblem story that you personally think actually isn't that good due to your own metric of how you judge whether a story is well-or-poorly-made?

Yeah SoV and 3H because the former is thematically inconsistent and the ladder doesn’t understand how cause and effect works. I could go into more detail but then we’d be here all day. 

 

58 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Your argument now boils down to we shouldn't criticisze Awakening because it has no intention of being a quality story.

No that’s not what I said at all read it again.

 

Really my entire point here is that I don’t think criticizing stories like cinemasins is a good way of criticizing stories cause then you get reviews like Mr.Enter’s animated atrocities review on Your Name. That’s a bad like a really bad video. Or even worse you get plagueofgripes Naruto video. Oh how I could go on a rant about that video. Like how goddamn times do I have to say that you should criticize a story within the bounds of its own rules not your rules. You don’t get to set the rules to which this story follows. You didn’t write it. The story sets its own rules so you should judge it within those rules.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Ottservia

[Lightcosmo]

Lunatic classic, good luck with that! 

I've never tried it myself.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah SoV and 3H because the former is thematically inconsistent and the ladder doesn’t understand how cause and effect works. I could go into more detail but then we’d be here all day. 

 

No that’s not what I said at all read it again.

 

Really my entire point here is that I don’t think criticizing stories like cinemasins is a good way of criticizing stories cause then you get reviews like Mr.Enter’s animated atrocities review on Your Name. That’s a bad like a really bad video. Or even worse you get plagueofgripes Naruto video. Oh how I could go on a rant about that video. Like how goddamn times do I have to say that you should criticize a story within the bounds of its own rules not your rules. You don’t get to set the rules to which this story follows. You didn’t write it. The story sets its own rules so you should judge it within those rules.

You might not think it's not what your claiming but it is the result of it. Because the complaints here are not cinemasins complaints. Pointing out how no one could reasonably hear Emmeryn up on that rock is a cinemasins style nitpick. But comments like that aren't the point of contention here (at least for me, I won't speak for everyone else). The problems being discussed here are things relating to how the entire conflict and climax of the arc play out. I can just as much dismiss all your criticisms of Shadows of Valentia by just calling them nitpicks or saying your not judging the work by its own rules. It's not a valid defence because you apply that to literally anything. I agree that a work should be judged for what it is, a surrealist piece should not be treated by the same rules as a soap opera. But we are judging Awakening by its own rules and it is failing them. It is not trying to be Mario, it is trying to be Fire Emblem. If Awakening was a pure comedy I wouldn't have an issue with the Hierarch being introduced and then unceremoniously killed off, but nothing about that scene is meant to be comedic.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You might not think it's not what your claiming but it is the result of it. Because the complaints here are not cinemasins complaints. Pointing out how no one could reasonably hear Emmeryn up on that rock is a cinemasins style nitpick. But comments like that aren't the point of contention here (at least for me, I won't speak for everyone else). The problems being discussed here are things relating to how the entire conflict and climax of the arc play out. I can just as much dismiss all your criticisms of Shadows of Valentia by just calling them nitpicks.

Yeah like the hierach dying is at all supposed to be an important moment that greatly effects the story. That’s a nitpick. Literally his death is only there for the sake of world building. He’s just there to die and show that there are plegians with some sense of honor nothing more. That is literally all his existence amounts to. The story doesn’t make his character out to be any more than that so complaining that he isn’t fleshed out is a moot point cause like the story doesn’t care that much so you really care that much. I don’t understand why you do. Like if the story wanted to flesh him more, it actually would have but it didn’t because it didn’t want to. Like he’s literally just a fucking redshirt that’s it.

and as I’ve said about criticisms is that like yeah those things probably would’ve made the story. But here’s the thing, I think the story works just fine as is. It’s by no means perfect but it’s by no means awful either. You get the point at least and it’s competently handled with very little in the way of inconsistency. Like here’s how my thought process is.

What is the overall message and thematic through line of the story?

Does it convey that message in a way that’s clear, understandable, and consistent? If yes, then fine. I have very little reason to complain. Awakening does in fact meet that criteria. It’s ideas are clear and understandable and handled with a fair degree of nuance. The story doesn’t contradict itself or break verisimilitude. There’s very little to truly complain about here. There are a few bumps here or there but overall the good definitely outweighs the bad. Awakening is able to get across its messages and ideas in a clear and nuanced manner whilst staying consistent and that’s really all a story needs to do.

[Icelerate]

I haven't played, read or watched Awakening so I have no idea what is being discussed but I wish I could follow the debate since it seems like an interesting one. However, it seems like ideas that could improve the story are being shot down just because the plot point is perceived to be good enough. And can we not make lazy comparisons with Mario games that are platformers. Comparing an RPG to a platformer is bizarre. People who play RPGs tend to expect more intricate story details compared to people who play platformers. 

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah like the hierach dying is at all supposed to be an important moment that greatly effects the story. That’s a nitpick. Literally his death is only there for the sake of world building. He’s just there to die and show that there are plegians with some sense of honor nothing more. That is literally all his existence amounts to. The story doesn’t make his character out to be any more than that so complaining that he isn’t fleshed out is a moot point cause like the story doesn’t care that much so you really care that much. I don’t understand why you do. Like if the story wanted to flesh him more, it actually would have but it didn’t because it didn’t want to. Like he’s literally just a fucking redshirt that’s it.

I honestly don't think his death is any attempt at world building. I think it's to get them into trouble and then remove him when that's done. Plegians are never shown to ha e any particular revulsion of traitors, it's not a thing that weighs on Tharja or Henry at all (as far as I can see). In fact the boss in question had orders to let the Heirarch live but chose not to, so it's not an honor standard of Plegians overall. It's his personal choice, and I don't think it was designed to make him look noble but to make him look like a dick. Especially considering they later reuse this character for the Death's Embrace DLC.

Quote

and as I’ve said about criticisms is that like yeah those things probably would’ve made the story. But here’s the thing, I think the story works just fine as is. It’s by no means perfect but it’s by no means awful either. You get the point at least and it’s competently handled with very little in the way of inconsistency. Like here’s how my thought process is.

What you're saying here is that it's not great but it's good enough. We have different standards then, because I dont want stories I consume to be a level of quality of good enough. I want them to be great.

Quote

What is the overall message and thematic through line of the story?

Does it convey that message in a way that’s clear, understandable, and consistent? If yes, then fine. I have very little reason to complain.

But it's not consistent. Chrom is meant to be acting rash, but he doesn't act rashly. He acts sensibly sand then the characters say it was rash.

Quote

Awakening does in fact meet that criteria. It’s ideas are clear and understandable and handled with a fair degree of nuance. The story doesn’t contradict itself or break verisimilitude. There’s very little to truly complain about here. There are a few bumps here or there but overall the good definitely outweighs the bad. Awakening is able to get across its messages and ideas in a clear and nuanced manner whilst staying consistent and that’s really all a story needs to do.

But it needs to do that well. What you've just said there is that Awakening has the elements of a story. Which yes, it does. It just so happens that how it uses those elements makes it a bad story, not a good story (or to be charitable, an okay story, but not a great story).

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Jotari

[Venger_06]

Ah, the language barrier reached me and I ended up getting lost in the middle of all this discussion, but I will try to give my 2 cents.

 

I once said on the unpopular opinions thread that Awakening has one of the best stories, and I still hold my opinion, but this is more about most FE stories being mediocre than Awakening being a masterpiece. Anyway, I am not going to argue that this story is flawless, nor do I intend to keep insisting that writers played 4D chess writing it. Awakening bit more than it could chew with the ambitious task of utilizing 2 continents, time travel and references from past games which left its structure very disorganized, but as I already commented on this thread a few days ago the message it is trying to pass has more value , with its achievements overcoming its shortcomings.

 

That being said, the sheer amount of hate the game gets is astounding, and I often feel like people ignore its strengths and focus entirely on its flaws under a scrutiny that doesn't seem to apply to the older titles. This happens a lot, especially when there are discussions about its cast and many ill-informed opinions start flying around which seem to be based on hearsay rather than actually reading the supports and DLC conversations. I get that Awakening is an easy target, because it had its flaws and catapulted the series into the mainstream, when you begin to only find flaws in modern games and look over the past games many flaws that's were biases and nostalgia gets in the way.

 

An example that I can give is Shadows of Valentia itself, which makes several writing mistakes and whose worldbuilding is on the same level as Awakening and is still hailed as “the return to form of FE after the shit that were Awakening and Fates” just because it is a remake of an old game. I do not want to turn this into a matter of “casual vs elitist”, nor to discredit anyone’s opinion, I just want to draw attention to the double standard that happens many times, even if unconsciously.

 

I will be waiting for the moment where Echoes review will begin. Alastor, from what I read about some previous games, you are very demanding in the part of the writing, and rated Sacred Stones very low on the list because of things you thought didn't make sense. For the quick look I took at the time you were playing Radiant Dawn, you also criticized a plot point about a mountain pass. So your opinion is interesting to me.

 

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas.

 

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

Ah, the language barrier reached me and I ended up getting lost in the middle of all this discussion, but I will try to give my 2 cents.

 

I once said on the unpopular opinions thread that Awakening has one of the best stories, and I still hold my opinion, but this is more about most FE stories being mediocre than Awakening being a masterpiece. Anyway, I am not going to argue that this story is flawless, nor do I intend to keep insisting that writers played 4D chess writing it. Awakening bit more than it could chew with the ambitious task of utilizing 2 continents, time travel and references from past games which left its structure very disorganized, but as I already commented on this thread a few days ago the message it is trying to pass has more value , with its achievements overcoming its shortcomings.

 

That being said, the sheer amount of hate the game gets is astounding, and I often feel like people ignore its strengths and focus entirely on its flaws under a scrutiny that doesn't seem to apply to the older titles. This happens a lot, especially when there are discussions about its cast and many ill-informed opinions start flying around which seem to be based on hearsay rather than actually reading the supports and DLC conversations. I get that Awakening is an easy target, because it had its flaws and catapulted the series into the mainstream, when you begin to only find flaws in modern games and look over the past games many flaws that's were biases and nostalgia gets in the way.

 

An example that I can give is Shadows of Valentia itself, which makes several writing mistakes and whose worldbuilding is on the same level as Awakening and is still hailed as “the return to form of FE after the shit that were Awakening and Fates” just because it is a remake of an old game. I do not want to turn this into a matter of “casual vs elitist”, nor to discredit anyone’s opinion, I just want to draw attention to the double standard that happens many times, even if unconsciously.

 

I will be waiting for the moment where Echoes review will begin. Alastor, from what I read about some previous games, you are very demanding in the part of the writing, and rated Sacred Stones very low on the list because of things you thought didn't make sense. For the quick look I took at the time you were playing Radiant Dawn, you also criticized a plot point about a mountain pass. So your opinion is interesting to me.

 

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas.

 

I'll take this as an opportunity to clarify that I dont hate Awakening by any measure. As I said near the start of the playthrough I comes out neutral on it in terms of strong opinions. I'm harsh on it, but I'm also harsh on all the games in this series (and most stories in general). It's less Awakening itself that is prompting such a large reaction for me and more that I think Ottservia's arguments in defense of these plot points are just not strong at all. I have no intention of coming across as ride or aggressive on that front.

[Venger_06]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'll take this as an opportunity to clarify that I dont hate Awakening by any measure. As I said near the start of the playthrough I comes out neutral on it in terms of strong opinions. I'm harsh on it, but I'm also harsh on all the games in this series (and most stories in general). It's less Awakening itself that is prompting such a large reaction for me and more that I think Ottservia's arguments in defense of these plot points are just not strong at all. I have no intention of coming across as ride or aggressive on that front.

No problem, you aren't being agressive at all. I think the problem here is that neither of you properly understood each other's opinion. Awakening's story didn't resonate with you as much as it resonated with us, so you can't just pass up the flaws in the script. You are looking for a great story, and Awakening did not meet your criteria, although it did meet ours.

26 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I haven't played, read or watched Awakening so I have no idea what is being discussed but I wish I could follow the debate since it seems like an interesting one. However, it seems like ideas that could improve the story are being shot down just because the plot point is perceived to be good enough. And can we not make lazy comparisons with Mario games that are platformers. Comparing an RPG to a platformer is bizarre. People who play RPGs tend to expect more intricate story details compared to people who play platformers. 

Do you post on FE reddit? I recently ran into a post about Eirika and the Demon King and I wanted to say that it is very well written. If not, just ignore me.

[Ottservia]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But it's not consistent. Chrom is meant to be acting rash, but he doesn't act rashly. He acts sensibly sand then the characters say it was rash.

That’s not what inconsistent means though. Inconsistent means that it went back on something it has already established. There is no inconsistency here. Inconsistent with your idea of what “rash” means maybe but not inconsistent with anything the story has already established. And that’s what I mean by awakening not being inconsistent. It’s consistent with itself and that’s all it needs to do. It doesn’t need to be consistent with your biased understanding of reality because awakening does not need to conform to your biased sense of reality. Again I’m just gonna post this video here as it basically summarizes everything I’ve been trying to say in all this

 

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But it needs to do that well. What you've just said there is that Awakening has the elements of a story. Which yes, it does. It just so happens that how it uses those elements makes it a bad story, not a good story (or to be charitable, an okay story, but not a great story).

Okay but what does “doing it well” mean though? by the way you’re arguing it seems you want awakening to follow a certain set of rules that it never intended to follow. Like I keep saying you don’t get to decide the rules by which this story operates. Only the writers can do that. They decide those rules not you or I. Awakening wants to tell a story about bonds, fighting for ideals you believe in, and overcoming the past. To its credit, it does do that well. By that I mean you can make thematic connections between its various plot points and characters. Every story beat has a purpose and it connects together fairly neatly. Again, it’s not inconsistent at any point. It doesn’t ever contradict itself. The characters have clearly defined flaws and arcs to grow from said flaws. The character foil relationships have depth and draw meaningful connections. And all that comes together in a very neat package. It isn’t like 3H where all the nuance of its themes is buried under a pile of sloppy storytelling structure. Like I said, judge each piece of media by its own rules and what it sets out to accomplish within those rules. Not the rules you set for it.

[Icelerate]

22 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

Do you post on FE reddit? I recently ran into a post about Eirika and the Demon King and I wanted to say that it is very well written. If not, just ignore me.

Yes I do. I know what post you are talking about. Thanks for acknowledgement. 

[Eltosian Kadath]

7 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

And now the game gives a really, ridiculously lazy and un-subtle declaration that Gangrel is supposed to be Chrom's dark counterpart, what Chrom could have become if he didn't learn from his failings and grow as a person, and... no. No, not remotely. We haven't seen a single fucking action from Chrom that was bloodthirsty or driven by hatred or a desire for revenge. Not one. Not even an impulse that was swiftly held back by the support of his friends. Not even after Emmeryn's death. There was the time he rushed in upon hearing Emmeryn was captured and had to be talked down, but that was purely him thinking about saving his sister, and not getting revenge on anyone. It is completely idiotic that Chrom even entertains the “maybe you're right” thing, because it just isn't true. At all.

Yeah it take a lot more to make a Gangrel out of Chrom than this pithy line acts. I can see Chrom killing specific people in the moment, and out of anger, but that is a far cry from contriving elaborate plots to slaughter a general group of people. To use another game's premise as a metaphor, there are a lot more neutral ending than there are pacifist or genocide ending in Undertale, and not going pacifist is a far cry from the genocide ending...

 

7 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Right, so, anyway, so begins the Valm arc. Honestly, this is my favorite part of the story. I realize that it's the one you could most easily cut out of the story entirely with the fewest consequences, but of the three ridiculously small parts of this game, being a guerrilla force stuck in a massive and hostile land came the closest to being genuinely interesting. Plus, gameplaywise, it's the part I remember enjoying the most, probably because it's when the game opens up and you start getting cooler toys to play with.

I am also a fan of the Valm arc, although from what I can tell that tends to be the minority opinion.

 

7 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

So yeah, right out the gate, Walhart's demands, as conveyed through Dalton, are completely, psychotically unreasonable. He demands complete submission of basically everything that everyone owns, and he also demands “this land's greatest possession, the Fire Emblem”, as if he doesn't know that this continent (Ylisse? Is this another Archanea situation?) has more than one country, and he just landed in Ferox.

I am kinda reminded of the Nazi's hunger plan, where the plan with seizing all the food in the lands they conquered was to intentionally kill off the original inhabitant to allow for German immigrants to take the land...

 

7 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

He just waltzed into... this... arid, desert nation... killed the... tyrannical despot running things there... and... left a power vacuum there... for... religious...

...extremists...

...to...

...take...

...over.

That... was that intentional? It can't have been intentional.

I felt the sudden urge to link to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mlCPMYtPk

 

7 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Validar calls Chrom “prince”, and... really? I get not calling yourself an exalt out of respect to your sister, maybe, but... but not even becoming a king? Still being a prince!?

Principalities were a thing, where Prince was the ruling title...

 

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well, the Arabic term "Caliph" can mean "successor", but "steward" or "deputy" are valid meanings as well. the glorious Abbasid Caliphate which stretched from Morocco to Persia at its height of power was no second-rate country. The reason for limiting oneself to the title of deputy, is because Mohammad did exert political authority, but being the Last Prophet of Islam, he's on a bit of pedestal no one can or should trying stepping onto themselves.

And yes, I have incidentally wound up comparing Emmeryn to the founder of a major religion, which considering her martyrdom and its stated impact, might not be entirely incorrect. Who knows if an Emmeryn sect of WhateverIsWorshippedInYlisseism arose to prominence in the years that followed her death?

Fitting, as Halidom means lands held by a religious foundation. Seeing as it is the Halidom of Ylisse, the religious connotations are very intentional.

 

21 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s not what inconsistent means though. Inconsistent means that it went back on something it has already established. There is no inconsistency here. Inconsistent with your idea of what “rash” means maybe but not inconsistent with anything the story has already established. And that’s what I mean by awakening not being inconsistent. It’s consistent with itself and that’s all it needs to do. It doesn’t need to be consistent with your biased understanding of reality because awakening does not need to conform to your biased sense of reality.

Seeing as Chrom needs to actually be acting rash to achieve the thematic relevance Awakening is going for, that sounds like some major thematic inconsistency right there, and a good story needs to be consistent with its message. Unless that theme about the cycle of violence doesn't actually hold water. Then again if that wasn't supposed to be a theme of Awakening, then people mistakenly believing it is, would not be the clear, understandable, and consistent message that makes for a good story would it.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

If I recall correctly, Chrom does takes the Exalt title in the Japanese script. No idea why they made that change in localization, as it were.

[Ottservia]

6 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Seeing as Chrom needs to actually be acting rash to achieve the thematic relevance Awakening is going for, that sounds like some major thematic inconsistency right there, and a good story needs to be consistent with its message. Unless that theme about the cycle of violence doesn't actually hold water. Then again if that wasn't supposed to be a theme of Awakening, then people mistakenly believing it is, would not be the clear, understandable, and consistent message that makes for a good story would it.

That’s not what inconsistency means though. It’s not contradicting anything the story has already established so it’s not inconsistent. Again not the gotcha you think it is

[Eltosian Kadath]

Just now, Ottservia said:

That’s not what inconsistency means though. It’s not contradicting anything the story has already established so it’s not inconsistent. Again not the gotcha you think it is

It almost like words have more than one meaning. In this case inconsistent was being used to mean the opposite of consistent.