Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Ottservia]

Just now, Eltosian Kadath said:

It almost like words have more than one meaning. In this case inconsistent was being used to mean the opposite of consistent.

But even that definition doesn’t work. Like what does that mean in this context? You’re not making sense. Yeah it’s the opposite of consistent but the definition of consistent is there is no contradiction so the opposite of that would mean that there is but there isn’t. Again you’re not making any sense 

[Eltosian Kadath]

Fine @Ottservia lets break each sentence of my original post down into smaller easier to understand chunks, using the word contradiction instead so that you can better understand it, with notes about the context that I was expecting you to have.

 

19 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Seeing as Chrom needs to actually be acting rash to achieve the thematic relevance Awakening is going for, that sounds like some major thematic inconsistency right there, and a good story needs to be consistent with its message.

simpler breakdown: A theme needs Chrom to be rash in a scene. Chrom is not shown acting rash in that scene. That is a contradiction with Awakening's presentation of the theme. A good story can't contradict its message. Thus Awakening isn't a good story

 

contextual notes: I am sorry that I wasn't explicit about the specific contextual knowledge I was referencing when I quoted Jotari, but I thought you were following his argument. The scene in question is where the game explicitly shows Chrom acting reasonably about defending his sister's life, when Gangrel tries to have her killed at a parlay. Jotari and you commented on it previously, and he was clearly referencing it in the statement I quoted. I make the theme I am talking about more explicit in the next sentence, as it is the theme about the cycle of violence you brought up in previous posts.

31 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Unless that theme about the cycle of violence doesn't actually hold water.

simpler breakdown: If the theme isn't part of Awakening's message, disregard last statement.

contextual notes: You previously alleged the cycle of violence is one of Awakening's themes. I felt the need to address the scenario of whether or not that is one of Awakening's themes, as I do question the validity of it, due to a number of places it is contradicted by the actions of Chrom.

42 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Then again if that wasn't supposed to be a theme of Awakening, then people mistakenly believing it is, would not be the clear, understandable, and consistent message that makes for a good story would it.

simpler breakdown: If the theme isn't part of Awakening's message, then people have mistaken the message. If people are mistaking the message, the message isn't clear. A good story needs its message to be clear. Thus Awakening isn't a good story.

contextual notes: Seeing as you allege that one of the games messages is about the breaking of the cycle of violence, then your own misinterpretation of the game's message is evidence of the message not being clear, which you have stated the story needs to be a good story.

Hopefully this expanded retelling of three sentences is clear enough that you don't feel the need to criticize it with some cinemasins style nitpicks.

 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

That’s not what inconsistent means though. Inconsistent means that it went back on something it has already established. There is no inconsistency here. Inconsistent with your idea of what “rash” means maybe but not inconsistent with anything the story has already established. And that’s what I mean by awakening not being inconsistent. It’s consistent with itself and that’s all it needs to do. It doesn’t need to be consistent with your biased understanding of reality because awakening does not need to conform to your biased sense of reality. Again I’m just gonna post this video here as it basically summarizes everything I’ve been trying to say in all this

I don't think you can call "character does something, people say character did the complete opposite" as a biased sense of reality. Again you could use the logic your using to justify anything. You're using a biased sense of reality to claim Shadows of Valentia is thematically inconsistent, it has no reason to confirm to what you think it's rules are.

 

Quote

Okay but what does “doing it well” mean though? by the way you’re arguing it seems you want awakening to follow a certain set of rules that it never intended to follow.

No, if anything my previous rejection of the idea that stories require conflict should so that I don't think stories need strict rules in the slightest. My issue is seperate for each scene but mostly boil down to the fact that they don't adequately convey the messages you've head cannoned them to have. And I do not feel it in appropriate to phrase it that way as we have already found a scenario where you alone have claimed to have been able to divine the meaning behind a line that turned out to be a mistranslation.

Quote

Like I keep saying you don’t get to decide the rules by which this story operates. Only the writers can do that. They decide those rules not you or I. Awakening wants to tell a story about bonds, fighting for ideals you believe in, and overcoming the past. To its credit, it does do that well.

Yes, that's what it wants to do, no, it does not do that well, or rather it does not do it as well as it could.

Quote

By that I mean you can make thematic connections between its various plot points and characters. Every story beat has a purpose and it connects together fairly neatly. Again, it’s not inconsistent at any point. It doesn’t ever contradict itself.

Chrom not acting rash and then the story saying he was acting rashly is a contradiction.

Quote

The characters have clearly defined flaws and arcs to grow from said flaws. The character foil relationships have depth and draw meaningful connections. And all that comes together in a very neat package. It isn’t like 3H where all the nuance of its themes is buried under a pile of sloppy storytelling structure. Like I said, judge each piece of media by its own rules and what it sets out to accomplish within those rules. Not the rules you set for it.

No matter how many times you say that it doesn't actually make it any more correct an argument, because I'm not actually doing that. And I can give a fairly good example of how I'm not doing that. I do not hold it against Awakening for not showing any Plegians in Emmeryn's death scene in the Japanese version. I can accept that they're there and we just don't see them. Sure it'd be nice to have them there and depict the weight of them, but their absence does not bring the scene down. But in the English version with that added line that you have theory crafted into a reference to Plegians, then there is issue because Awakening is breaking it's rules. Its making something important to the scene and not showing it. And no, this is not some surrelest aspect of Awakening's story telling where it constantly has important elements mentioned but arbitrarly unseen to convey some artistic theme or point. It's an isolated incident born from extrapolation of a translation error. Now and translation error in itself shouldn't be held too much against the game, that's not my point. My point is how much you've bent over backwards to try and rectify defend and reinterpret something in order to ignore the criticism of something that is literally a mistake. For all we know the cast referring to Chrom as rash could be stuff born from translation error too, but unless it is you will continue to try and side No matter how many times you say that it doesn't actually make it any more correct an argument, because I'm not actually doing that. And I can give a fairly good example of how I'm not doing that. I do not hold it against Awakening for not showing any Plegians in Emmeryn's death scene in the Japanese version. I can accept that they're there and we just don't see them. Sure it'd be nice to have them there and depict the weight of them, but their absence does not bring the scene down. But in the English version with that added line that you have theory crafted into a reference to Plegians, then there is issue because Awakening is breaking it's rules. Its making something important to the scene and not showing it. And no, this is not some surrelest aspect of Awakening's story telling where it constantly has important elements mentioned but arbitrarly unseen to convey some artistic theme or point. It's an isolated incident born from extrapolation of a translation error. Now and translation error in itself shouldn't be held too much against the game, that's not my point. My point is how much you've bent over backwards to try and rectify defend and reinterpret something in order to ignore the criticism of something that is literally a mistake. For all we know the cast referring to Chrom as rash could be stuff born from translation error too, but unless it is you will continue to try and side step or ignore valid criticism out of a bias for this game that I'm certain you would not apply to other narratives. If you want to argue that criticism of any art is impossible because they need be judged by their own rules (and no story comes with its own list of rules so that's up to interpretation) then fair enough. I disagree, but fair enough. Just realize that is what you're doing when you say Awakening can't be criticized because it's following its own rules.

2 hours ago, Maof06 said:

No problem, you aren't being agressive at all. I think the problem here is that neither of you properly understood each other's opinion. Awakening's story didn't resonate with you as much as it resonated with us, so you can't just pass up the flaws in the script. You are looking for a great story, and Awakening did not meet your criteria, although it did meet ours.

Do you post on FE reddit? I recently ran into a post about Eirika and the Demon King and I wanted to say that it is very well written. If not, just ignore me.

This really has nothing to do with Awakening for me. If someone used these sorts of arguments in response to criticizism of anything, even something I like, then I'd react the same way.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

No matter how many times you say that it doesn't actually make it any more correct an argument, because I'm not actually doing that. And I can give a fairly good example of how I'm not doing that. I do not hold it against Awakening for not showing any Plegians in Emmeryn's death scene in the Japanese version. I can accept that they're there and we just don't see them. Sure it'd be nice to have them there and depict the weight of them, but their absence does not bring the scene down. But in the English version with that added line that you have theory crafted into a reference to Plegians, then there is issue because Awakening is breaking it's rules. Its making something important to the scene and not showing it. And no, this is not some surrelest aspect of Awakening's story telling where it constantly has important elements mentioned but arbitrarly unseen to convey some artistic theme or point. It's an isolated incident born from extrapolation of a translation error. Now and translation error in itself shouldn't be held too much against the game, that's not my point. My point is how much you've bent over backwards to try and rectify defend and reinterpret something in order to ignore the criticism of something that is literally a mistake. For all we know the cast referring to Chrom as rash could be stuff born from translation error too, but unless it is you will continue to try and side No matter how many times you say that it doesn't actually make it any more correct an argument, because I'm not actually doing that. And I can give a fairly good example of how I'm not doing that. I do not hold it against Awakening for not showing any Plegians in Emmeryn's death scene in the Japanese version. I can accept that they're there and we just don't see them. Sure it'd be nice to have them there and depict the weight of them, but their absence does not bring the scene down. But in the English version with that added line that you have theory crafted into a reference to Plegians, then there is issue because Awakening is breaking it's rules. Its making something important to the scene and not showing it. And no, this is not some surrelest aspect of Awakening's story telling where it constantly has important elements mentioned but arbitrarly unseen to convey some artistic theme or point. It's an isolated incident born from extrapolation of a translation error. Now and translation error in itself shouldn't be held too much against the game, that's not my point. My point is how much you've bent over backwards to try and rectify defend and reinterpret something in order to ignore the criticism of something that is literally a mistake. For all we know the cast referring to Chrom as rash could be stuff born from translation error too, but unless it is you will continue to try and side step or ignore valid criticism out of a bias for this game that I'm certain you would not apply to other narratives. If you want to argue that criticism of any art is impossible because they need be judged by their own rules (and no story comes with its own list of rules so that's up to interpretation) then fair enough. I disagree, but fair enough. Just realize that is what you're doing when you say Awakening can't be criticized because it's following its own rules.

Translation error aside my interpretation of the scene was still more or less correct and I already admitted I was wrong with my arguments regarding that. Can you just let that fucking go? Like I already admitted I was wrong there. Again I’ll stand by my interpretation of the scene because it was more or less correct minus some errors regarding the mistranslation.  Even disregarding the mistranslation. The scene is still one in which Emmeryn realizes she failed and finally decides to act. I’m only really “bending over backwards” to justify it out of ignorance. Because I didn’t know what the original Japanese line was. Even so, I was still able to derive the proper meaning from what was given to me. Like can’t you just let that go. That was already resolved. If it comes to light that Chrom saying he acted rashly was also mistranslation then yeah I’ll admit I’m wrong on that front but no one has done that yet so I’ll stand by what I say until evidence to the contrary is brought to my attention. Even if it’s a mistranslation that doesn’t change the context of the scene. Emmeryn still chides Chrom for doing something he shouldn’t have thereby showing a flaw in his character. Translators only have so much power. 

 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Chrom not acting rash and then the story saying he was acting rashly is a contradiction.

That’s not what contradiction means though at least in this context. It’s only because you don’t think he acted rashly. Like yeah he did what anyone would do in that situation. But it’s because it allowed Gangrel to twist his actions to suit his narrative that it was “rash”. He didn’t think through the consequences before acting. Like the story doesn’t contradict anything it has already established so it can’t be called inconsistent. The story tries to show that he acting rash and chides him for it. That’s not inconsistent as it is jarring(I think that’s the right word) because it’s hard for you to understand the point of what’s happening because you don’t personally think he acted rashly at all when the story says he did. Like there’s a disconnect between you and the story. That disconnect does not exist for me. I can personally buy into the point the scene is trying to make so a dissonance like that doesn’t bother me as much. To quote the above video.

Quote

To read it merely by reality creates dissonance, but as stated earlier, it’s a dissonance that’s unavoidable once you understand that storytelling is by nature artificial and unable to truly represent reality in so many ways. Because even if the lack of reality is graciously accepted and utilized, stories are ultimately made by and read by people, who will inevitably include and derive human ideas from the stories they engage in.

 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

No, if anything my previous rejection of the idea that stories require conflict should so that I don't think stories need strict rules in the slightest. My issue is seperate for each scene but mostly boil down to the fact that they don't adequately convey the messages you've head cannoned them to have. And I do not feel it in appropriate to phrase it that way as we have already found a scenario where you alone have claimed to have been able to divine the meaning behind a line that turned out to be a mistranslation.

But there’s a contradiction in what you’re saying because you are absolutely applying rules to this story it never intended to follow. Need I bring up the hiearch? You said it’s bad writing to introduce a character only to kill him off not a second later. That is a rule you are applying to this story. And it would’ve made for better writing if it introduced him earlier. And as I’ve already he’s just a redshirt who’s entire purpose is to be introduced and die to add a little more to the conflict. The story never intended to flesh out his character or anything like that. If the story wanted to do that then it would have. Like the fact that the guy doesn’t have a name should really show how important he is to the overall grand scheme of things. Like the literal point of his character is to be introduced and killed off immediately after for the sake of adding a little more tension to the conflict. That is it. He doesn’t need to be anything more than that. The fact that you said that’s bad writing is you inarguably applying a rule to a story it never intended on following. Thereby you’re contradicting yourself.

[Alastor15243]

Awakening Day 10: Paralogue 12

Merry Christmas everyone! I'm not planning on doing too much today, but I'd like to at least make a small entry. I'm too excited to try out the utter absurdity that is having three galeforce users.

We just got the first two yesterday.

Today we recruit the third.

But first we need to finish this cutscene.

Chrom: There is only one Falchion, Alexandria. I believe her.

…

…

(INHALES)

...First off. If this is such conclusive proof of time travel, why didn't you say anything about that setting you off before? Why did you never even try to ask her about her Falchion once you started properly talking?

SECOND...

NO THERE IS NOT “ONLY ONE FALCHION”, CHROM! IGNORING THE ONE THAT ISN'T EVER CANONICALLY DISCOVERED, THERE ARE TWO! WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON HERE!? HOW CAN THEY FORGET WHAT HAPPENED IN GAIDEN IN THE STORY ARC THAT ONLY EXISTS AS GAIDEN FANSERVICE!?

...Deep breaths, Alastor...

...Moving on, I find it hilarious seeing Lucina call Lissa “Aunt Lissa” when I remember those scenes where Lissa was clearly attracted to “Marth”.

...Okay, so apparently Naga prepared the time travel ritual. And apparently she did it in post-Marth times, in the time of Grima rather than Medeus. If she was able to do that, I have to wonder why she didn't think to try to make this ritual earlier, given all the shit that happened that would've been nice to redo.

So then Lucina tearfully embraces her mother, and... okay, they do some interesting things with the avatar being Lucina's mother, though I won't say more until I see more of how it's actually executed.

And now the child paralogues start opening up on the map, but we only have access to one of them. See, you have to have cleared a map adjacent to a paralogue before you can do it, and Cynthia's is all the way in Valm proper.

Morgan's, however, is right by the Feroxi docks. We'll get a Naga's Tear from completing it (an all-stats stat booster rather than an all-stats tonic), but at this point I honestly have no idea who it's going to go to.

...But first, let's do the new supports. This is just a bunch of parent-child supports. Whenever you get a child unit, they automatically unlock a C support with their mother, father, and if applicable, sibling.

Oh man, I love Lucina. For all of her super-serious behavior before the reveal, she's surprisingly adorable. And one of the funniest things about her is just how completely out-of-touch she is with the concept of a normal life. She's so used to living in outrageously dire conditions that she just... takes everything seriously, even when she shouldn't. And it's comedy gold. Here though, she just really really wants to have a sparring match with her father, and you get the sense that it's mostly just so she can spend time with him. It's really cute.

Her support with her mother is... okay, I was gonna say this is cringe and dumb, but actually I still find it funny even after seeing it countless times. It's just adorable how utterly clueless Lucina is about fashion. No self-awareness at all. Also:

Lucina: I wager when Father sees you in this, he'll just scream with delight!

Alexandria: (I bet he'll scream, all right...)

Though I have to wonder what the fuck Lucina's mental image of her father is that she can actually imagine Chrom “screaming with delight”. That is the least Chrom-like thing I've ever heard.

Alright, let's do Paralogue 12 real quick and then work out what to do from there.

Yeah so the start of this map is pretty easy. Morgan starts close enough to our starting position that he can be rescued, then I can recruit him with Morgan, and then reclass him into mercenary. Yeah, I'm second-sealing these two right away, because they each have tier-1 classes they want to get skills from while they can. Lucina wants veteran from tactician (reclassing her now on the prep screen) and Morgan wants armsthrift from mercenary. Armsthrift would be nice for Lucina, but she's got the Parallel Falchion, so she's not hugely in need of it. I'll see how far they can get in their classes before they cap stats and need to promote to keep leveling.

Because their stats are gooooooood. I literally just got Lucina, and she's got stats comparable to my promoted Sumia at base level 10 lord. Morgan's in a similar boat. And they're just going to snowball from here, gaining level after level thanks to their low base level and veteran. By the end of this paralogue, they'll be nigh-unstoppable, and even at the beginning, double galeforce will give them so much maneuverability that I really don't need to worry about them dying on enemy phase.

I tonic'd Lucina up, and I gave her the Tiki's Tear I got from that event tile earlier. Morgan's gonna use it, because the great thing about it is that it lets you get all the bonuses in one turn if you can't use tonics at base.

...I wonder if I'm even gonna be able to justify using Cordelia and Sumia after this map.

Questions for later!

OKAY, THREE, TWO, ONE, LET'S JAM!

Ah yes, Morgan helpfully reminds me that there's reinforcements on those stairs. I was going to assume, but wasn't sure.

Right, so I rescue Morgan so I can have Chrom talk to him and then immediately pair up with Alexandria.

So yeah, Morgan has amnesia just like his mom, and... if I recall correctly, I think that's to make where the hell he comes from... a bit vague, due to...

...Well, they want to keep it vague whether or not he came from the same timeline as the other kids, thanks to the fact that he can be their children too, because Alexandria has no concept of basic social decency. The avatar will fuck your son, your daughter, your sister, your brother, your niece, your nephew, your other, mentally impaired sister, or one of your several arch-nemeses.

But I do remember that if you have Lucina be Morgan's sister... they just completely throw that amnesia out the window and suddenly he has a full history with Lucina despite saying here he doesn't remember her.

They do say “maybe something will come back to you once you've met with her and Lucina”, but... that's a hell of a lot that comes back in their sibling supports.

Ah yes, Morgan, whether male or female, will always ask if they look like the avatar in their new reclass outfit. Female Morgan will ask this even when she just reclassed to bride.

...Yeah, Morgan just gained a full level from a single kill. He only got HP and defense, but still, one kill of a basic mook.

It's basically gonna be impossible to get to the treasures in time without having Alexandria blaze across the map as a dark flier. I'm going to make sure to only put her in range of the other fliers though, so that as much exp as possible is left for Morgan and Lucina.

I reclassed Cordelia to dark flier three levels early since she's really falling behind in the speed department, and I want her to get galeforce as soon as possible if she's going to be any good at all.

I accidentally fucked up and overestimated the number of rescue staff units I hadn't moved yet, and left Libra in range of the two wyvern riders I wanted Morgan and Lucina to tackle. I moved Sumia to make sure that at least one of them wouldn't be able to attack Libra. After making sure they couldn't kill Sumia, of course.

Alright, Alexandria successfully stole back the fortify staff without stealing too many of her children's kills.

GOD DAMN IT.

Flier ambush spawns hiding under the stairs. Good thing I sent my sturdiest healer to heal up Lucina, or I'd have lost someone. As it stands, Anna survived the silver axe attack with 2 HP to spare.

Thankfully they had the decency not to put one of those ambush spawn fliers by the stairs across from our starting position, but still... that's the first time an ambush spawn has really, really bothered me and taken me off guard. At least in a chapter I wasn't soloing.

…

…

…

HEY!

ABOUT THAT BEGRUDGING COMPLIMENT I JUST PAID THE GAME. YOU KNOW, ABOUT THAT PLACE THEY HAD THE DECNCY TO NOT SPAWN FLIER REINFORCEMENTS?

GUESS WHERE A GRIFFIN RIDER JUST SPAWNED.

Aaaaaand Olivia's down. Granted, this was basically the last chapter I would ever find her useful, but still... first casualty, to a promoted griffin rider ambush spawn you'd have to huddle near the absolute bottom left corner of your starting position to not get hit by.

These ambush spawns are bullshit.

Anyway, it took Miriel and Sumia together to kill that guy, and Sumia had to use the last uses of her Ephraim's Lnce to do it, since he was just that fast. Only Alexandria can double these fuckers normally.

On the plus side though, Morgan at least has officially reached critical mass and has become nigh indestructible, especially now that he has patience for another +10 avoid. However... I have to actually pick which skill to drop for that, and the annoying thing is that they're all pretty great. He definitely wants to keep veteran, obviously, and the same goes for galeforce, but solidarity, rightful king and armsthrift are pretty great too.

Admittedly, all rightful king is doing at this exact moment is buffing his armsthrift chance, so it's objectively worse than armsthrift in this current situation. ...Yeah, I think I wanna keep the crit boost for Lucina. I think that even boosts your back row partner for dual strikes, though of course that's extremely hard to check since you can't actually see your partner's combat window stats in this game.

...Okay, yeah, Morgan and Lucina are gonna have to promote soon. They're already capping stats in their tier 1 classes. I'll still milk this early exp gain until they hit 20, but after that, they're gonna promote.

And now I find myself realizing I have to quickly get used to the fact that enemies have skills that actually matter now. Some of these swordmasters might be able to one-round me if they proc astra.

...Man, I can't believe I'm still finding myself wanting more second seals. Now that Morgan has armsthrift, there's really no reason to keep him in a class that cripples his magic stat and growth. But if I'm going to reclass him, the part of me that wants to keep them roughly equal wants to reclass Lucina too, but I only have one second seal.

...Fuck it, I'll second seal Morgan back to tactician. I'm just crippling his growth if I don't.

Yeah, honestly, this chapter was surprisingly hectic. And that made it really, really fun to use galeforce with it. I actually had stuff I needed to use galeforce for. If I had tried to tackle this map with my other guys, they'd have been screwed. Of course, that was because of a ridiculous, haphazard amount of enemy spam with enemies more powerful than I've ever yet seen, so...

...Okay, we got the last chest, so we'll just finish off the boss and be done with this.

Yep! Alright, so, I think we'll leave it here for today, but I'd like to at least check out these supports.

Yeah, so, for those of you who don't know, the parent-child supports with the variable parent are... very generic. It's the same support for each potential parent, it's just the way the variable parent phrases their lines that's changed. They basically amount to the same thing. Which can get annoying in some instances, because some parents, namely Henry, are so wacky and bizarre that they wouldn't remotely act the way that the game makes them.

Hahaha. So Morgan, being from the future, quotes one of Alexandria's lines from the next chapter. I think that's a cute touch. But there's not much else to say about Morgan and Chrom's support. As for his support with Alexandria...

...It's just a cute little thing with Morgan trying to lure his mom into a pitfall trap in order to impress her with his skill, and while the trap was done excellently, the execution of getting her over to it sucked big time.

And...

...Ah yes.

The infamous scene where Lucina and her sibling, characters who have fought zombies and stared down the gaping maw of a death-breathing helldragon... freak the fuck out and turn into scared little children at the sight of a bug.

Or in this case, a cockroach, because Morgan loves bugs and they had to change the scene accordingly to make it work.

It's funny as hell, but also... really, really dumb.

Honestly, it makes basically everyone but Morgan and Cynthia act radically out of character. And I'm including Lucina when I say only those two are exceptions. She, Brady, Kjelle and Inigo would never act like this in a million years.

I honestly feel this conversation was made with Chrom x Sumia in mind first and foremost, and it only coincidentally also works with Morgan. I say coincidentally because the rest of the support chain clearly was not written with much care for what it implies about him.

...Alright, that's it for today.

Stay safe, everyone!

...Stay safer than Olivia. Man, I completely forgot about that until just now.

...Oh well, happy holidays!

[Samz707]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

HEY!

ABOUT THAT BEGRUDGING COMPLIMENT I JUST PAID THE GAME. YOU KNOW, ABOUT THAT PLACE THEY HAD THE DECNCY TO NOT SPAWN FLIER REINFORCEMENTS?

GUESS WHERE A GRIFFIN RIDER JUST SPAWNED.

Aaaaaand Olivia's down. Granted, this was basically the last chapter I would ever find her useful, but still... first casualty, to a promoted griffin rider ambush spawn you'd have to huddle near the absolute bottom left corner of your starting position to not get hit by.

These ambush spawns are bullshit.

 

I'll be sure to keep that in mind when Robin gets hitched with...whoever they get hitched with in my playthrough.

It's kinda stuff like this why I don't like Awakening, The appeal to FE for me is using all the different unit types you have to the max, so having ambush fliers that punish you for using any of the fragile units is kinda rage inducing, even if I'm on Casual, it still annoys me since now I lost the use of that unit during the battle/the chance to give them any additional EXP during the battle.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

...Ah yes.

The infamous scene where Lucina and her sibling, characters who have fought zombies and stared down the gaping maw of a death-breathing helldragon... freak the fuck out and turn into scared little children at the sight of a bug.

 

No one tell them the Risen were retconned to be controlled by Parasite bug things. 

Good thing they'd never repeat that for an Byleth/Edelgard moment!

Edited December 25, 2020 by Samz707

[Eltosian Kadath]

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Again I’ll stand by my interpretation of the scene because it was more or less correct minus some errors regarding the mistranslation. 

How could you possibly know how correct your interpretation is? By your own logic Awakening has already established that basic aspects of humanity, like rashness, can mean something entirely different in this universe; how can you rely on failure having the same meaning, or that acting has the same meaning as it does in our universe? Your interpretation is entirely reliant on the universe of Awakening conforming to rules of reality it hasn't established, so how could it be right?

 

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Even if it’s a mistranslation that doesn’t change the context of the scene. Emmeryn still chides Chrom for doing something he shouldn’t have thereby showing a flaw in his character.

It sounds like your argument here is that being narratively punished is evidence of a character flaw that isn't shown. Why does Awakening get a pass doing this?

 

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

The story tries to show that he acting rash and chides him for it.

It FAILS to show him acting rash. Then the story contradicts itself by pretending he was rash anyway.

 

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

But it’s because it allowed Gangrel to twist his actions to suit his narrative that it was “rash”.

Just because Gangrel misrepresented the situation doesn't make it rash. By that logic Maribelle was acting rash by letting Gangrel twist her kidnapping into an invasion as well...

 

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

He didn’t think through the consequences before acting.

This doesn't conform to what we see of Chrom either. The actions he takes have the clear consequences of saving his sister, which is what he wanted. He shows the same priorities just before Emmeryn dies, where he does everything in his power to save Emmeryn. He isn't being rash, he just cares about his sister more than his people. If that was the flaw Awakening was claiming it wouldn't be inconsistent, but instead it says he is being rash, which he isn't.

 

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

That’s not inconsistent as it is jarring(I think that’s the right word)

Seeing as jarring means inconsistent in a way that is shocking, yes that word would fit, as it is inconsistent, and shocking how blatant it is in the contradiction

 

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

That disconnect does not exist for me. I can personally buy into the point the scene is trying to make so a dissonance like that doesn’t bother me as much.

Just because you are subjectively OK with Awakening contradicting itself, doesn't mean it didn't contradict itself.

 

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

To quote the above video.

Quote

To read it merely by reality creates dissonance, but as stated earlier, it’s a dissonance that’s unavoidable once you understand that storytelling is by nature artificial and unable to truly represent reality in so many ways. Because even if the lack of reality is graciously accepted and utilized, stories are ultimately made by and read by people, who will inevitably include and derive human ideas from the stories they engage in.

 

This dissonance was completely avoidable in this case; if the story didn't contradict itself, there wouldn't be that dissonance.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

SECOND...

NO THERE IS NOT “ONLY ONE FALCHION”, CHROM! IGNORING THE ONE THAT ISN'T EVER CANONICALLY DISCOVERED, THERE ARE TWO! WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON HERE!? HOW CAN THEY FORGET WHAT HAPPENED IN GAIDEN IN THE STORY ARC THAT ONLY EXISTS AS GAIDEN FANSERVICE!?

I can believe Chrom doesn't know about Alm's Falchion, but never having that second Falchion show up is insulting to Gaiden's memory...

 

39 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

But I do remember that if you have Lucina be Morgan's sister... they just completely throw that amnesia out the window and suddenly he has a full history with Lucina despite saying here he doesn't remember her.

They do say “maybe something will come back to you once you've met with her and Lucina”, but... that's a hell of a lot that comes back in their sibling supports.

Its amazing how many times Awakening does this sort of thing, where it lets player create these goofy contradictions, like the war that hasn't started in Donnel's paralogue, or the calling them Risen, before learning that they are called Risen.

 

[Samz707]

27 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

 

 

Its amazing how many times Awakening does this sort of thing, where it lets player create these goofy contradictions, like the war that hasn't started in Donnel's paralogue, or the calling them Risen, before learning that they are called Risen.

 

Yeah it kinda is, I get the feeling the writers (assuming these all aren't mistranslations) really, really didn't put too much thought into it.

[Ottservia]

21 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

How could you possibly know how correct your interpretation is? By your own logic Awakening has already established that basic aspects of humanity, like rashness, can mean something entirely different in this universe; how can you rely on failure having the same meaning, or that acting has the same meaning as it does in our universe? Your interpretation is entirely reliant on the universe of Awakening conforming to rules of reality it hasn't established, so how could it be right?

I don’t think I wanna even bother with this. This is the very definition of pedantic. It’s not interpretation if the character is outright saying these things and I dunno about you but Emmeryn is clearly saying that she failed here. Like that’s the point. It’s not like this story is the pinnacle of subtlety here.

 

23 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Just because Gangrel misrepresented the situation doesn't make it rash. By that logic Maribelle was acting rash by letting Gangrel twist her kidnapping into an invasion as well...

 

Yeah it was rash of Maribelle to do that as well. Again, it’s not like she’s rewarded for doing so. I mean her actions do lead to this turn of events and I wouldn’t classify these turn of events as a good thing. 

 

26 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

It FAILS to show him acting rash. Then the story contradicts itself by pretending he was rash anyway.

 

Trying and failing to show something is not the same thing as telling me one thing and showing me the complete opposite. You can interpret Chrom’s actions as rash. Like there’s enough evidence with that moment to form that conclusion. I’m not saying it’s perfect but you can come to that conclusion. It’s not contradictory if you disagree with it. 

 

29 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

It sounds like your argument here is that being narratively punished is evidence of a character flaw that isn't shown. Why does Awakening get a pass doing this?

 

Look if you wanna have a civil critical discussion about how I criticize SoV vs awakening just say so in PMs cause you just seem to be just wanna find contradictions in my arguments regarding awakening and you’re really stretching. This just reeks of what aboutism. 

 

34 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Just because you are subjectively OK with Awakening contradicting itself, doesn't mean it didn't contradict itself.

 

It doesn’t contradict itself though. It tells us one thing and you disagree with how that’s shown. That’s not a contradiction. A contradiction is telling us that a character should be appointed leader because he is a commoner only to say that he’s not a commoner and to say(and yes this is directly stated by other characters) that he’s better than everyone else because he’s not a commoner. Like that’s an actual narrative contradiction. This is more so a case of the story trying to show an idea and maybe it not doing it as well as it could have. Like calling that moment a contradiction is on the level of saying Naruto is thematically inconsistent but that’s a rant for another day. And yeah you’re right it is subjective because well I personally can agree with what the narrative is trying to say. I can agree that he reacted rashly but the fact that you disagree with the story is more or less a matter of personal taste. Just because an action is the correct thing to do that doesn’t mean it’s not rash. An action can still be understandable and rash. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. 

 

45 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

This dissonance was completely avoidable in this case; if the story didn't contradict itself, there wouldn't be that dissonance.

I would argue against this to a degree.

 

45 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

This doesn't conform to what we see of Chrom either. The actions he takes have the clear consequences of saving his sister, which is what he wanted. He shows the same priorities just before Emmeryn dies, where he does everything in his power to save Emmeryn. He isn't being rash, he just cares about his sister more than his people. If that was the flaw Awakening was claiming it wouldn't be inconsistent, but instead it says he is being rash, which he isn't.

The funny thing is that IS the flaw of Chrom’s character that awakening is trying to convey. His rashness is simply a byproduct of that. He cares too much for his sister that he doesn’t think through the long term consequences as shown when he defends her and is about to give up the Fire Emblem for her sake. He’s too wrapped up in his emotions that he acts without thinking which causes him to act rashly. You’re correct in that is what his flaw is. It’s that flaw that causes him to act rashly.

[Samz707]

Not sure if it's too out of topic (Since I am actually returning to Awakening due to this LP) but what main story chapter do you recommend doing the child units? 

I got Noire's as my first one and every single enemy makes the bosses in the main story look like push overs.

20 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

 

The funny thing is that IS the flaw of Chrom’s character that awakening is trying to convey. His rashness is simply a byproduct of that. He cares too much for his sister that he doesn’t think through the long term consequences as shown when he defends her and is about to give up the Fire Emblem for her sake. He’s too wrapped up in his emotions that he acts without thinking which causes him to act rashly. You’re correct in that is what his flaw is. It’s that flaw that causes him to act rashly.

Except the problem some of us have is that this flaw, outside of potentially giving up the Fire Emblem because fuck player choice am I right? is that to us, we never really see Chrom be rash, Chrom does something reasonable but then the main story tries to frame him as rash, then tries to compare him to the genocidal maniac in an incredibly flawed argument.

Chrom's flaws is that he's an absolute moron IMO that's too trusting, I simply do not see rashness because "Not letting your sister get stabbed to death by another army" is a perfectly reasonable response. (And no, this is a (IMO) generally Semi-realistic fantasy series, you can't set your sword to stun and somehow easily not kill dudes.)

Author intent and the audiences interpretation of that are important, for an admittingly exaggerated example, propaganda exists to prop up something but when ever it works, comes across too hard or simply comes across as false depends on who's viewing it, some might agree with the message, others might agree with it somewhat but feel like it's coming across too obnoxiously with it while others will hate it.)

Just because the Author intends something doesn't mean the audience will like it or maybe even they'd see something completely different.

So while I do see Chrom as a flawed character, the actual author (assuming only one author did this part of the game, since 6 of them) and I have entirely different interpretations of those flaws, to the point where (and I can't believe I'm saying this for the IMO worst lord in any FE game.), it comes across as the story essentailly trying to imply Chrom is in the wrong for actions that are clearly right, to the point of unfairly comparing him to a genocidal maniac that frankly, I heavily disagree with.

Audiences can and should be allowed to see things differently from the creator's interpretation, while the author's intention is the "true" one, well, it's still ultimately subjective.

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Samz707

[Alastor15243]

6 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Not sure if it's too out of topic (Since I am actually returning to Awakening due to this LP) but what main story chapter do you recommend doing the child units? 

I got Noire's as my first one and every single enemy makes the bosses in the main story look like push overs.

Honestly, I'd say just look at your stats and look for benchmarks. How much damage are your usual units taking? Can they double? Can they one-round?  Play the map in your head and imagine how the first few rounds will go. Does it look like you could be in trouble depending on how the enemies aggro?

Due to the freaky leveling system, looking at raw levels can be quite deceptive, so you need to pay attention to those sorts of more basic statistical indicators.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Alastor15243

[Sunwoo]

I remember that Nah's battle was pretty hellish if you try to go through it at a low level. Of course, it's been several years since I last played Awakening, but I had an old avatar-only playthrough where I purposely did Nah's paralogue as soon as it unlocked and ...

Well, let's just say I had a really bad time.

[Axie]

NO not missing Best Boy Inigo for this entire run 😔✊🏻

also this discussion about awakening's writing merits has become entirely inscrutable

[Ottservia]

24 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Not sure if it's too out of topic (Since I am actually returning to Awakening due to this LP) but what main story chapter do you recommend doing the child units? 

I got Noire's as my first one and every single enemy makes the bosses in the main story look like push overs.

Except the problem some of us have is that this flaw, outside of potentially giving up the Fire Emblem because fuck player choice am I right? is that to us, we never really see Chrom be rash, Chrom does something reasonable but then the main story tries to frame him as rash, then tries to compare him to the genocidal maniac in an incredibly flawed argument.

Chrom's flaws is that he's an absolute moron IMO that's too trusting, I simply do not see rashness because "Not letting your sister get stabbed to death by another army" is a perfectly reasonable response. (And no, this is a (IMO) generally Semi-realistic fantasy series, you can't set your sword to stun and somehow easily not kill dudes.)

Author intent and the audiences interpretation of that are important, for an admittingly exaggerated example, propaganda exists to prop up something but when ever it works, comes across too hard or simply comes across as false depends on who's viewing it, some might agree with the message, others might agree with it somewhat but feel like it's coming across too obnoxiously with it while others will hate it.)

Just because the Author intends something doesn't mean the audience will like it or maybe even they'd see something completely different.

So while I do see Chrom as a flawed character, the actual author (assuming only one author did this part of the game, since 6 of them) and I have entirely different interpretations of those flaws, to the point where (and I can't believe I'm saying this for the IMO worst lord in any FE game.), it comes across as the story essentailly trying to imply Chrom is in the wrong for actions that are clearly right, to the point of unfairly comparing him to a genocidal maniac that frankly, I heavily disagree with.

Audiences can and should be allowed to see things differently from the creator's interpretation, while the author's intention is the "true" one, well, it's still ultimately subjective.

 

Lemme just preface by saying I completely agree with 90% of what’s said here. Yeah you don’t have to agree with the message of the story nor do you have to like it. That’s all a matter of personal preference and that is fine. But just because you disagree with it that doesn’t make it bad writing and that’s my point here. People will inevitably interpret things differently. That’s why all stories are different because different authors interpret reality differently and convey those ideas which are drawn from reality in different ways and that’s the beauty of art and storytelling. Still, you should respect the story for what it is and what it’s trying to say if you’re going to criticize it. As I say again judge each piece of media by its own rules. 

[Samz707]

39 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Honestly, I'd say just look at your stats and look for benchmarks. How much damage are your usual units taking? Can they double? Can they one-round?  Play the map in your head and imagine how the first few rounds will go. Does it look like you could be in trouble depending on how the enemies aggro?

Due to the freaky leveling system, looking at raw levels can be quite deceptive, so you need to pay attention to those sorts of more basic statistical indicators.

Spoiler

 

Yeah a large chunk of my units can suddenly get one rounded or at least near-death, which is basically death when there's a bunch of fliers I can't exactly kill before they can get to me and how at the bridge at the start there's 3-5 Cavaliers/Bow Knights.

I compared battle forecasts

In Noire's chapter, against a cavalier who's part of the big mob of them near the starting bridge.

Lon'qu paired with Say'ri against a Cavalier with a silver lance (Who's only level 7 yet has stats mostly in the 20's...suuuuuure game.)

Lon'que does 5 damage x 2 (with 100 chance to hit" while the "Ruffian" will do 27 (out of 42) damage with 66 chance to hit.

Against Tharja, who has been second sealed and paired with Frederick.

Tharja does 23 damage x 2 (95 chance to hit) while he does 11 ATK with 90 chance to hit, Tharja has 26 Speed, 26 defense (AKA Maxed out.)

Meanwhile, against a level 20 fighter with an iron axe on Mila tree. 

Lon'qu Paired with Say'ri does 23 damage x2 (with 100 chance to hit.) while the Valm dude has 13 ATK...and zero chance to hit

Tharja does 37 damage, with 100 chance to hit while the Valm dude does 0! damage, with only 53 chance to hit anyway.

I know technically they're using silver weapons in the side-chapter but the sheer differences between the battle forecasts are kinda absurd to me considering how I unlocked these chapters at the same time. (I'm really not a fan of just obviously inflating enemy stats like this.)

 

 

15 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Lemme just preface by saying I completely agree with 90% of what’s said here. Yeah you don’t have to agree with the message of the story nor do you have to like it. That’s all a matter of personal preference and that is fine. But just because you disagree with it that doesn’t make it bad writing and that’s my point here. People will inevitably interpret things differently. That’s why all stories are different because different authors interpret reality differently and convey those ideas which are drawn from reality in different ways and that’s the beauty of art and storytelling. Still, you should respect the story for what it is and what it’s trying to say if you’re going to criticize it. As I say again judge each piece of media by its own rules. 

 

Except that's part of interpretation.

You think the game displays Chrom being rash, while I don't, therefore you think the writing is good and shows it off, while I think it's not since it feels like the game is just trying to force a moral that doesn't beyond and is disconnected from the actual events going on.

And well, to me, respect is earned, not automatically given, you respect the story while I personally think the whole Gangrel/Chrom business makes the authors look like they think their writing is way, way better than it actually is and is super pretentious in an obnoxious fashion.

Therefore I quite frankly, do not respect the story in how it seems so sure of it's themes that, to me, it is completely and utterly mishandling.

And this is before we go into the sheer lack of care into actually making it fit into the pre-established world it's supposed to be in.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Samz707

[Alastor15243]

Okay, so, I'm gonna have to ask for a stop to these various debates with Ottservia. They don't really seem to be going anywhere, and they're taking up a lot of space, so I'd rather we keep the thread moving forward. @Ottservia, you can discuss anything new that pops up in the thread, but these current discussions are getting dangerously close to derailing the thread, so I'd rather they stop.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Alastor15243

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Not sure if it's too out of topic (Since I am actually returning to Awakening due to this LP) but what main story chapter do you recommend doing the child units? 

I got Noire's as my first one and every single enemy makes the bosses in the main story look like push overs.

Like I said in another thread, it depends on the child. Morgan, Owain, Kjelle and Laurent are feasible to pick up immediately (at least if you're not on Lunatic), as they have mostly unpromoted enemies (however, Owain's paralogue is located such that you'd need to either be able to access Cynthia's paralogue or chapter 15).

Edited December 26, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Translation error aside my interpretation of the scene was still more or less correct and I already admitted I was wrong with my arguments regarding that. Can you just let that fucking go? Like I already admitted I was wrong there. Again I’ll stand by my interpretation of the scene because it was more or less correct minus some errors regarding the mistranslation.  Even disregarding the mistranslation. The scene is still one in which Emmeryn realizes she failed and finally decides to act. I’m only really “bending over backwards” to justify it out of ignorance. Because I didn’t know what the original Japanese line was. Even so, I was still able to derive the proper meaning from what was given to me. Like can’t you just let that go. That was already resolved. If it comes to light that Chrom saying he acted rashly was also mistranslation then yeah I’ll admit I’m wrong on that front but no one has done that yet so I’ll stand by what I say until evidence to the contrary is brought to my attention. Even if it’s a mistranslation that doesn’t change the context of the scene. Emmeryn still chides Chrom for doing something he shouldn’t have thereby showing a flaw in his character. Translators only have so much power. 

I'm not letting it go because it's emblematic of the larger point here. It's not about that scene, it's about your methodology of argument used to justify a bad line that we later discover is literally not a part of the story. You were insisting just before I posted that it was a translation error that this line literally could not be cut from the story, that nothing at all could be realistically changed about the scene at all. The logic of this argument was proven faulty with evidence, yet you're still using it to justify other things. That is what I mean when you're arguments are weak.

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

That’s not what contradiction means though at least in this context. It’s only because you don’t think he acted rashly. Like yeah he did what anyone would do in that situation. But it’s because it allowed Gangrel to twist his actions to suit his narrative that it was “rash”. He didn’t think through the consequences before acting. Like the story doesn’t contradict anything it has already established so it can’t be called inconsistent.

Yes it has, because Chrom acting sensibly and then being chided for being rash when the consequences of him not acting would have obvious far worse result is a contradiction. Quite indisputably, though I've no doubt you will dispute it.

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

The story tries to show that he acting rash and chides him for it. That’s not inconsistent as it is jarring(I think that’s the right word) because it’s hard for you to understand the point of what’s happening because you don’t personally think he acted rashly at all when the story says he did. Like there’s a disconnect between you and the story. That disconnect does not exist for me. I can personally buy into the point the scene is trying to make so a dissonance like that doesn’t bother me as much. To quote the above video.

Oh I absolutely know what the point of the scene was meant to be. The story just did a terrible way of conveying those points.

14 hours ago, Ottservia said:

But there’s a contradiction in what you’re saying because you are absolutely applying rules to this story it never intended to follow. Need I bring up the hiearch? You said it’s bad writing to introduce a character only to kill him off not a second later. That is a rule you are applying to this story. And it would’ve made for better writing if it introduced him earlier. And as I’ve already he’s just a redshirt who’s entire purpose is to be introduced and die to add a little more to the conflict. The story never intended to flesh out his character or anything like that. If the story wanted to do that then it would have. Like the fact that the guy doesn’t have a name should really show how important he is to the overall grand scheme of things. Like the literal point of his character is to be introduced and killed off immediately after for the sake of adding a little more tension to the conflict. That is it. He doesn’t need to be anything more than that. The fact that you said that’s bad writing is you inarguably applying a rule to a story it never intended on following. Thereby you’re contradicting yourself.

That's not a rule I'm applying to all writing as a whole. It's a rule I'm applying to this story. A story absolutely can introduce a character and then kill them off immediately. Let me think of an example. Sure, yeah, the Farmer With A Shot Gun in the first episode of Dragon Ball Z. He does appear in a few more cameos here and there but Raditz essentially kills him off in his single scene. He shows up and does what he's meant to for the plot. He establishes Raditz's strength, the extreme difference in power between Raditz and the people of Earth, that Raditz is an alien and that Raditz is a brutal mofo who can shrug off bullets. Now here's the thing, when Raditz flicks a bullet back (essentially) killing the unnamed farmer, that's the end of it. That Farmer was not someone Goku knew. His death does not have any knock on effect on any of the other characters because he's an element completely removed from the sphere of the world of the main characters. The Hiearch is not. He is someone Chrom and co know an have known basically their entire life. He helped Emmeryn run the country. His death, even if they don't have any ounce of personal affection for him, still has major concerns about Emmeryn's viability as a leader, their security network.The Farmer with a shotgun is an element of the world of Dragon Ball. The Hiearch is not an element of Awakening's world. His brief existence in the world influences nothing of what it logically should (and Awakening is a story that porports to be bound by logic). If instead of the Hiearch we had a nameless villager betray the party to Plegia then sure, that works, that villager betraying Chrom as no extended ramifications. Like everything, it's not that the Hierarch is created and killed that's the issue, it's that he's created and killed badly. He is not an incorporated element of this world. He is something that was shoved in there to achieve this task that his existence wasn't even required to achieve.

7 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Okay, so, I'm gonna have to ask for a stop to these various debates with Ottservia. They don't really seem to be going anywhere, and they're taking up a lot of space, so I'd rather we keep the thread moving forward. @Ottservia, you can discuss anything new that pops up in the thread, but these current discussions are getting dangerously close to derailing the thread, so I'd rather they stop.

Okay just glancing at the most recent posts here and seeing this now after I've typed up my latest response. I think it's a good one (and it took me like half an hour to do) so I'm going to leave it, but after that I'll behave and will refrain from posting on this issue for the immediate future (surprised it wasn't called an end to before this).

[Jotari]

15 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, so, for those of you who don't know, the parent-child supports with the variable parent are... very generic. It's the same support for each potential parent, it's just the way the variable parent phrases their lines that's changed. They basically amount to the same thing. Which can get annoying in some instances, because some parents, namely Henry, are so wacky and bizarre that they wouldn't remotely act the way that the game makes them.

My favorite moment of variable support weirdness is Severa saying she's about the same age as Gregor XD

[ping]

Soooo.... is Lucina just a genderflipped Future Trunks, except that her father isn't 1,50 meters of concentrated superiority-inferiority complex?

Like, they're obviously not identical, but they still seem to follow a lot of similar ideas. Travel back in time to help create a timeline where the good guys win. Which also brings back a super-powerful antagonist (Cell and EVIL Robin Alexandria, respectively, although I don't remember how exactly Grima travels back in time). Very close relative (Trunks's mum / Lucina's aunt) wants to know them, biblically.

[Alastor15243]

2 minutes ago, ping said:

Soooo.... is Lucina just a genderflipped Future Trunks, except that her father isn't 1,50 meters of concentrated superiority-inferiority complex?

Like, they're obviously not identical, but they still seem to follow a lot of similar ideas. Travel back in time to help create a timeline where the good guys win. Which also brings back a super-powerful antagonist (Cell and EVIL Robin Alexandria, respectively, although I don't remember how exactly Grima travels back in time). Very close relative (Trunks's mum / Lucina's aunt) wants to know them, biblically.

I haven't checked out the cell saga much, but I have heard the comparison made before repeatedly.

[Ottservia]

Seeing as how dragon ball is viewed as a sort of classic in Japan it doesn’t suprise me that the devs take inspiration from. Awakening in general is very battle-Shouneny in its tone and aesthetic 

[The Roger The Paladin]

1 hour ago, ping said:

Soooo.... is Lucina just a genderflipped Future Trunks, except that her father isn't 1,50 meters of concentrated superiority-inferiority complex?

Like, they're obviously not identical, but they still seem to follow a lot of similar ideas. Travel back in time to help create a timeline where the good guys win. Which also brings back a super-powerful antagonist (Cell and EVIL Robin Alexandria, respectively, although I don't remember how exactly Grima travels back in time). Very close relative (Trunks's mum / Lucina's aunt) wants to know them, biblically.

If you want to do that, then you can go back even further to 1979 Judge Dredd: The Judge Child and it's sequel 1983 Judge Dredd: The City of the Damned, where a vision is sent back to a telepath in telling of an upcoming doomsday in the year 2120 (The year, in Dredd was 2104 in the first story, and 2107 in the sequel). Basically, they were told of a teenage boy with an Eagle shaped-birth-mark who they needed to take in to prevent the bad future.... the "Judge Child".  Except the Judge Child turned out to be both a powerful psi and a total psychopath, so he ended up being put down when it became clear he was a devastating threat to the world. This resulted in the sequel... where they travelled to the ruined future to find out about the upcoming threat.

Turned out that aliens who had abducted Chrysler in the original storyline cloned the deceased Owen Chrysler, the Judge Child... and the defeated clone was even worse than the original. He descended upon the Earth, turning the judges into vampires... and the future Dredd into his zombified (I don't mean some plodding flesh-eater, just an inhumanly durable, mindless corpse) bodyguard. The zombie Dredd actually proved sufficiently stronger than the original to gouge out his eyes (Dredd's had cybernetic replacements since this story), and eventually the future child was defeated. After getting his new cybernetic eyes, Dredd travelled to the alien planet, and destroyed the clone in it's gestation tube (a lot like that scene where the undeveloped Cell of the main timeline gets killed in Dragonball Z). That said... afterwards the zombie Dredd would show up in the present... intent on preventing the prevention of it's own timeline... before ultimately being destroyed as well. Because the Dredd timeline progresses at the same rate as real life... we'd ultimately see 2120 roll around, and a story where they waited for the clone Chrysler to show up. He didn't... and since then a good 23~ years have passed, so it's safe to say the destruction of the clone prevented that future in the main timeline.

Also in 1981... there was the X-men "Days of Future Past" story... what with the bad future where everyone died to the robotic sentinels... but Kitty Pryde (the newest member of the team) travelled back to her early days on the team to prevent the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants assassinating Senator Robert Kelly... causing the mutant registration act that basically ended up seeing mutants concentration camped/mass killed off by the superior Sentinels of the future. That being said... a particular Sentinel called "Nimrod", named after the Biblical "greatest hunter of all time", ended up being sent back to interfere. Nimrod was insanely powerful both physically being able to lift in excess of 100 tons and with it's weaponry that could disintegrate steel, had the ability to shapeshift and regenerate due to molecular control... and would eventually mutate into a more... humanoid form known as "Bastion". Kind of mirroring how Cell gradually became less monstrous... though key differences exist like the fact it being a comic Bastion/Nimrod never would fully go away. Nimrod wasn't the only threat to come back out of that timeline either... but perhaps the most prominent.

Hell, I've not even went into the fact The Terminator 1984 is also a pretty similar thing... albeit with the roles reversed. The T-800 model having been sent back to prevent resistance leader John Connor's birth, and David Reese is sent back to prevent the assassination of Sarah Connor.... and we know for a fact that Akira Toriyama parodied the Terminator when he designed Major Metallitron for the Muscle Tower arc of the Red Ribbon Saga.

If we want to be really stupid...  there's even Sonic 06 with Silver... and Mephiles. But no. I'm not explaining that in detail.

I guess my point is... a lot of time travel stories have the same beats.... independent of each other or otherwise. After all.. you do kind of need a motivation if you're changing history (or trying) and potentially wiping out your own past. Not that any of these ones truly did... they all just created another timeline except maybe in the original intention the Terminator example. I feel saying they're all "basically the same" is ignoring the most important part to any of them. The way the characters are handled. I mean... let's face it. There's a reason that Sonic '06 is the one on this list (including Awakening and the Android/Cell arc) that isn't considered a fan-favorite in it's series/genre.

[Ottservia]

20 minutes ago, The Roger The Paladin said:

f we want to be really stupid...  there's even Sonic 06 with Silver... and Mephiles. But no. I'm not explaining that in detail.

Funny thing about Silver is that he was explicitly stated as a reference to trunks in the official character sheets or something 

[The Roger The Paladin]

24 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Funny thing about Silver is that he was explicitly stated as a reference to trunks in the official character sheets or something 

That doesn't surprise me, when from memory Super Sonic was also a reference to Super Saiyan.