Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

True, but Witches are an odd case. Having surrendered their souls to Duma, they lack agency - something that the enemy Pegasus Knights and Valkyries in other games retain. Plus, they don't show up in force until Act IV, whereas Pegasus Knights show up fairly early in games like FE7-HM or Conquest.

Thanks for the insight! I had assumed as much, but didn't want to make a definitive statement without evidence. 

The dude has a bigass lance, full-body red armor with shield, a spiky crown, evil-looking facial hair, and a deep imposing voice. They give him plenty of threatening villain cues. His face isn't evil-looking, but that works with the game trying to keep his villainy a point of debate (versus, say, Garon or Walhart).

I think he looks like Santa Claus more than an actual villain. He just so gosh darn kindly. For a full rundown of my views on his design I direct you to this old thread.

https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/81691-rudolf-was-meant-to-be-a-villian-folks/

Edited June 3, 2021 by Jotari

[Venger_06]

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

You got it. Would you mind sending it back to me shortly after so I have it on my new file too? Just tell me your castle address.

Sure. Here it is:

[Eltosian Kadath]

22 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

...Can I just say how utterly bizarre it is, yet again, that this game just calls the Rigelian Empire an “empire” well before it actually does any imperial shit? I get they're trying to take over Zofia now, but I mean before that. It's a single unified state ruled by a god for centuries, the territory Duma was given when they split the continent between them. What, were there indigenous people outside of Mila and Duma's jurisdiction living there with their own countries that were taken over, and Mila agreed to a deal that involved splitting up their territory by annexing territory that wasn't theirs? Hell, the wiki just flat-out calls Rigel a kingdom despite also calling it the Rigelian Empire. Funny how both Gaiden and Sacred Stones have this problem, given how much Sacred Stones was taking cues from Gaiden.

Its probably a case of Empire means evil...although setting up a few kingdoms in his domain and having them fight for supremacy does sound like Duma's philosophy on how to treat humanity.

 

22 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Anyway, Kliff is at least fast enough to obliterate the archers on the wall. So that's one annoyance that I don't have to deal with this time.

Nice, looks like archer Kliff worked out for you despite the levelups you have been getting.

 

 

22 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Again this is blatently incorrect. Are we reading the same support? The explicitly stated reason he pretends to be hexed is because she had him doing good things for other people. He could’ve stopped any time he wanted but he didn’t because he felt like he was doing a good deed. If you’re gonna criticize, get your facts straight

I didn't really elaborate on that flippant line about Virion, because Tharja was the relevant one. There are hints, even all the way back in his join chapter about Virion liking women to dominate him, and this support felt in line with that, although I didn't really lay the groundwork for that interpretation. Sorry.

 

22 hours ago, Ottservia said:

The repetition is there to make sure you get the point. Repitition isn’t bad inherently. It’s when there is nothing but repitition that it becomes a problem like with Faye. Again when it happens with Tharja it’s there to resolve a character arc unlike with Faye it’s just there to show how one dimensional she is.

Ah yes Tharja's key arc, that feigning friendship gets her things of value to stalking Robin, like physical safety, pliant servants, and magical materials.

 

22 hours ago, Ottservia said:

And the basis for this argument is stupid because you’re not really proving me wrong because the comparison doesn’t prove Faye not to be one dimensional. It just serves to take a jab at Tharja which doesn’t help Faye at all. She’s still one dimensional character whose sole defining character was to simp for Alm.

Seeing as your point is that Tharja isn't as one dimensional as Faye

22 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Her sole defining character trait isn’t that she’s obsessed with Robin. There are things mixed in there too and the narrative treats her with respect cause she still has her own agency and can get with the man she wants. 

which you continue to claim, showing that Tharja is as one dimensional is proving that point wrong. Tharja has as much going on as Faye, and just because the player can make her their in game wife doesn't mean Tharja has agency, only that the player does. At least they didn't feel the need to tie the value of Faye's friendships to something of tangible value for her stalking Alm. In fact the make clear that it will be directly counter to her interest in Alm through the previous support, where Silque tries to tie their friendship to Faye's interest in Alm, and she rejects it, and notably doesn't return to this idea when she warms up to their friendship.

 

22 hours ago, Ottservia said:

And she was added to the remake for the explicit stated reason for more female representation. I don’t know about you but that is a big yikes.

They added two characters in SoV, one male and one female, one for Alm's side, and one for Celica's side, one at the beginning of the game, and one near the end. Faye wasn't added for the sole purpose of increasing female representation, the two characters were brought in to counter balance each other.

 

22 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Plus she’s the only female character on Alm’s path that isn’t a damsel in distress and uhhh yeah that certainly has some problematic implications.

As for the other, Shadows of Valencia is a remake of Gaiden, a game that came out on the Famicom. Other popular games on the Famicom include games like Super Mario, in which the only female character in the game is a damsel in distress, The Legend of Zelda, in which the titular Zelda is a damsel in distress, and Final Fantasy, a game whose first quest is to rescue Princess Sara, a damsel in distress. Gaiden is a product of its time as much as Faye is a product of the 3DS era.Plus Tharja repeatedly having men jump in front of attacks to defend her is getting into some damsel in distress territory as well...

 

 

17 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Not stepping into the mess entirely, but of the fourteen endings Tharja has, only three mention Robin: 

1. Her solo ending, where she never gets over him/her;

2. Her paired ending with Robin; and

3. Her paired ending with Kellam, whose paired endings are all tragical(ly hilarious) in some way, shape, or form.

Every other ending has Tharja develop a nice and happy relationship with her spouse...except her ending with Vaike. Which is funny in its own right. 

That is undercut by how the paired ending in Awakening are treated. With the exception of Kellam, all the husbands (and Robin) have a canonical ending with a sentence about their wife as an after thought at the end (Robin being by far the worst offender, where there spouse barley gets name dropped at the end). Seeing them all stacked up like (with noted exception of Kellam) that makes it feel like the wives are just accessories to the husband's successful ambitions (or Robin's spouse an accessory to the player). Only the solo and Kellam paired (and F! Robin) endings place the women as the focus of their own ending.

 

 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Can I request we take the whole support arguing about Awakening vs Shadows of Valentia somewhere else? Like the supports complaints thread in general with that conversation is already happening (with many of the same people as here)? It's kind of consuming this entire thread.

I am guessing this is talking about the Tharja and Faye comparison here, although I have not read through enough of the "support complaint thread" (again I am guessing this is the "Why are supports still considered to be a good form of storytelling?" thread) to really know. At least from my perspective, the nature of what is being discussed isn't about supports, but two characters with striking similarities. That being said, this is getting a bit expansive on the thread, so this is my last post about it.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Its probably a case of Empire means evil...although setting up a few kingdoms in his domain and having them fight for supremacy does sound like Duma's philosophy on how to treat humanity.

I don't think you actually need to rule over kingdoms to establish an empire. You need vassals, but not necessarily kings. The Holy Roman Emperor oversaw electors, archbishops, dukes, margraves, counts, barons, and free and imperial cities, but no kings other than the King of Bohemia (who later became the Emperor himself with the Habsburgs). Later, Brandenburg-Prussia, Hanover, Saxony, and Bavaria saw fit to elevate themselves to kingship, but that was centuries later.

Not to mention, the great empire of later Antiquity- Rome, from whom imperator derives. It might've conquered some "barbarian" kings, but could you really say the empire was built out of kingdoms?

[Ottservia]

15 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Seeing as your point is that Tharja isn't as one dimensional as Faye

No my initial point was that Alm having a Harem was stupid. You’re the one who brought up the what aboutism with Tharja and awakening which is a logical fallacy in it of itself

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't think you actually need to rule over kingdoms to establish an empire. You need vassals, but not necessarily kings. The Holy Roman Emperor oversaw electors, archbishops, dukes, margraves, counts, barons, and free and imperial cities, but no kings other than the King of Bohemia (who later became the Emperor himself with the Habsburgs). Later, Brandenburg-Prussia, Hanover, Saxony, and Bavaria saw fit to elevate themselves to kingship, but that was centuries later.

Not to mention, the great empire of later Antiquity- Rome, from whom imperator derives. It might've conquered some "barbarian" kings, but could you really say the empire was built out of kingdoms?

Well, the Holy Roman Empire was its own special case.

On the flip side, you also have Empires that went through the inverse. How many empires were never referred to as such? Spain is one good example. Though some rulers did called themselves Emperor (Imperator Totius Hispaniae), it was always the Crown/Kingdom of Castile, not actually the Empire of Spain. The British Empire could've been referred as such, but it stick to having Kings/Queens for rulers. Until Victoria took the title of Empress of India, but only of India. And so on.

[Eltosian Kadath]

11 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't think you actually need to rule over kingdoms to establish an empire. You need vassals, but not necessarily kings. The Holy Roman Emperor oversaw electors, archbishops, dukes, margraves, counts, barons, and free and imperial cities, but no kings other than the King of Bohemia (who later became the Emperor himself with the Habsburgs). Later, Brandenburg-Prussia, Hanover, Saxony, and Bavaria saw fit to elevate themselves to kingship, but that was centuries later.

Not to mention, the great empire of later Antiquity- Rome, from whom imperator derives. It might've conquered some "barbarian" kings, but could you really say the empire was built out of kingdoms?

Fair point, being an empire is more about ruling over people that think of themselves as distinctly different people, and declaring yourself an empire. I just figured setting up a few kingdoms is an easy way to make people think of themselves as differing peoples.
 

2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

No my initial point was that Alm having a Harem was stupid. You’re the one who brought up the what aboutism with Tharja and awakening which is a logical fallacy in it of itself

I was simply responding to this attempt to defend Awakening due to it containing characters more complex than Faye.

On 6/1/2021 at 11:35 PM, Ottservia said:

Cause in Robin and Chrom’s case it’s bot really a harem do much as it is just one or two girls crushing on them(or obsessed with in Robin’s case). The closest thing to harem they’ve got is Chrom having Sumia and Cordelia crushing on him and that’s more of a love triangle rather than a harem. You would need at least 3 girls for it to be a harem and No F!Robin doesn’t count. Even so, awakening didn’t add in a new female character for the sake of female representation only to make that character’s sole defining character trait nothing but her love for the protagonist. I dunno about you but that’s kind of sexist if you ask me. Say what you will about Tharja and Cordelia but at least they have other things going on outside of their obsession with a man they may or may not be able to have. And don’t even get me started on how poorly Rinea is handled.

This part of your comment was what I was responding to when this analysis started, as it is built on the idea that Tharja has more going on than Faye. I also responded to the comment about the harem being more of a love triangle by pointing out that Chrom also has a wife to consider.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

This part of your comment was what I was responding to when this analysis started, as it is built on the idea that Tharja has more going on than Faye. I also responded to the comment about the harem being more of a love triangle by pointing out that Chrom also has a wife to consider.

Don’t go pointing the finger at me for starting this argument it was Samz707 who brought up the what aboutism bullshit. And again you’re going on with the what aboutism. That’s a logical fallacy.

[Alastor15243]

Yeah, I'm thinking we should drop this topic. It's been going on for a while.

 

Shadows of Valentia Day 8: Big Hurty Lightning

And so begins Act 2. And in contrast to Alm, whose biggest flaw in this story is that beyond the witty character writing he's kinda boring... now we control Celica, whose fatal flaw is that she's annoying and stupid. From what I remember, her goals are weird, the fight between her and Alm is entirely her fault, she completely falls for the lies of man so blatantly scalp-deep in black magic that it's made his skin turn Corpse Bride blue, and with the exception of her decision to leave with Mycen at the end of the childhood opening, she's never shown to be correct or in the right about a single goddamned thing she disagrees with Alm about. Her vocal performance and lines are charming and all, because this is Shadows of Valentia and they mean business, but holy fuck is she insufferable to watch at times.

I'm open to being proven wrong by the story, but... that is undoubtedly how I remember her.

So now we get a cutscene where a green-haired individual fights an old man to the death while shouting that the old man took everything they loved.

...Something the next game would weirdly go on to repeat.

To be more specific, Act 2 opens up with Celica having a nightmare of being a ghost forced to watch while Alm has a showdown with Rudolf, driven into a blind rage by the fact that Rudolf apparently killed her.

...I kinda like this moment where Rudolf throws aside his shield dramatically. Like father, like son.

And while it's kinda weird considering this is supposed to be Celica having a bad dream, so it should stay from her perspective... the moment where they just stop letting us hear what Celica's saying to show that nobody can see or hear her is pretty good.

And then Rudolf glows purple and we only get a shot of Ghost Celica's horrified face as we have to assume Alm's impaled straight through. And then she catapults upright in bed, and the cutscene ends. All in all, pretty good cutscene and pretty scary nightmare.

But yeah, then we get to a normal story scene, and apparently they're ringing a bell to signal that King Lima IV is dead.

…

Okay this is weird. According to Celica, we've had multiple years of abject failure to grow crops, and yet only now has Rigel invaded, years after Rudolf took out Mila?

So Nomah is presented here as a wise authority figure, but... next time he shows up when he's randomly a playable character, they turn him into this goofy, borderline-senile buffoon.

Also, I wonder where Celica learned to fight. I don't mean the magic part, that's obvious. I mean the swordfighting. If she were getting trained by Mycen, surely that would've stopped when she left Ram Village and Mycen left her here at this priory, right? Who's been teaching her to use the sword, and if they have someone teaching that here, why is she the only one of her group of friends with any skill in it before promotion?

Nomah: Ah, and you mustn't forget Mila's Turnwheel.

Mustn't we?

...Apparently it's something you “wear”, according to Celica. Huh. I thought it was like a handheld thing.

Celica says she'll “never think of [Lima IV] as [her] father”, but... the way I remember it, doesn't she get irrationally pissed off at Alm for rightly pointing out what a useless shit he was?

Okay, so, they talk more about the famine, and I have to say... how'd they manage to survive for two years if the crops have failed completely, as people have said? Am I expected to believe a kingdom that perpetually was provided for with a ridiculous bounty of food at all times ever felt the need to learn how to preserve it so it would last?

Ah yes, and now we get Boey and Mae, everyone's favorite duo in this game. Though it's mostly Mae that's everyone's favorite. Yeah, and we get the famous “big hurty lightning” line, and the game gives you the option of leaving without talking to Genny, the only cleric that Celica's side ever gets. Of course we invite her, and then we search the priory for loot. We get wine, butter, flour, and...

...Ugh...

A cog for Mila's Turnwheel. Because yes, like I said, the game sees Mila's turnwheel not as an accessibility feature, but as a special attack, one you can upgrade by finding collectibles, eventually to the point of being able to use it like twelve times in a single battle.

I genuinely cannot conceive of a fight where I'd find myself rewinding twelve goddamned times before I win and then go “man was that fun!”.

Ah yes, and we get magic fountains here. Now, whenever I'm not grinding, I like to dump all of these speed boosts on Celica to make absolutely goddamned certain she can double with Seraphim by the time the necrodragons become available. She starts with 6, she needs 11. So yeah, I'll be doing that here. It's a shame, because basically anyone in the army would have liked that speed, but uh... let's just say I'm not that eager to count on growths to win the day here.

So we start a battle with some zombies. Celica tells Boey (who greatly protests going through the graveyard) that it's the only way to port, which makes me question just what the flying fuck the countryside has to be like that the only way from one side of the island to the other requires passing through this graveyard.

…

Terrors is apparently capitalized.

God damn this series and its weird inconsistent capitalization.

Mae: Oh, Boey, how can you be so scared of spooks and spirits at your age?

Maybe because they're fucking real, Mae?

Anyway, apparently Boey and Mae bickering reminds Celica of her brother. Real subtle, game. Though in the game's defense, I didn't guess who the mystery cav was until he said so, so... the hell am I to judge?

Aaanyway, time for the first Celica battle, and I think I'll have this be the last thing for today. More stuff to do than usual.

Yep, and the game makes it clear that magic pierces through terrain effects, an exceedingly useful trait for magic to have in this game where terrain effects are absolutely asinine.

Ah yeah, Celica's side has my favorite enemy-phase theme in the game. I just love how intense and creepy it is, especially with that xylophone beat underlying it. As for the player-phase theme, I much prefer the versions in the original and Brawl. They have a life to them that this one just kinda doesn't. It's way too casual.

I use the opportunity to feed as many kills as I can into Genny, because she really needs to get physic as soon as possible. It's absurdly useful on her, especially since she's our only healer.

Aw man, Genny got a crit and I was hoping it was the amazingly adorable “I! DO NOT! LIKE YOU!”, but unfortunately... it was weirdly... nothing at all. I didn't hear a clip play. Or maybe it was really short and finished before I could crank up the volume.

Anyway the map is mindlessly easy, all we have to do is hide on the graves and let them suicide into us.

...Oh shit, I forgot, Celica will eventually be able to heal too. Well, getting physic is still important.

We get hardly any exp at all from these guys, which is annoying to be sure. Even when feeding all of our exp into Genny and Boey (I'm hoping Boey will get speed on his level up, because otherwise he's got very little future when he can't even double 1-speed zombies), I think I'll be lucky to get more than one level up between them.

Genny got attack, skill and defense. I'm happy with that for now. But yeah, that was the only level up I got from this. Infuriatingly.

Yeah, looking at the world map again, it's patently absurd that the only way across the island from the southeast to northwest corner is to pass through a graveyard in the northeast corner. The fuck? What is the rest of the island made of that only the zombie-infested graveyard is passable?

But yeah, that's it for today. Tomorrow we'll get Saber and do our first of the infamous bote maps.

Stay safe, everyone!

[Ottservia]

Just now, Alastor15243 said:

And so begins Act 2. And in contrast to Alm, whose biggest flaw in this story is that beyond the witty character writing he's kinda boring... now we control Celica, whose fatal flaw is that she's annoying and stupid. From what I remember, her goals are weird, the fight between her and Alm is entirely her fault, she completely falls for the lies of man so blatantly scalp-deep in black magic that it's made his skin turn Corpse Bride blue, and with the exception of her decision to leave with Mycen at the end of the childhood opening, she's never shown to be correct or in the right about a single goddamned thing she disagrees with Alm about. Her vocal performance and lines are charming and all, because this is Shadows of Valentia and they mean business, but holy fuck is she insufferable to watch at times.

I honestly prefer Celica to Alm cause unlike mr. perfect over there she actually has flaws that are challenged by the narrative. Say what you will about the jedah stuff but at least it builds off of established character flaws of hers and serves to show how she was wrong about a lot of things in the end. Still doesn’t excuse the other mysoginistic ways she’s written but it’s better than what I can say about Alm.

[Samz707]

25 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

And so begins Act 2. And in contrast to Alm, whose biggest flaw in this story is that beyond the witty character writing he's kinda boring... now we control Celica, whose fatal flaw is that she's annoying and stupid. From what I remember, her goals are weird, the fight between her and Alm is entirely her fault, she completely falls for the lies of man so blatantly scalp-deep in black magic that it's made his skin turn Corpse Bride blue, and with the exception of her decision to leave with Mycen at the end of the childhood opening, she's never shown to be correct or in the right about a single goddamned thing she disagrees with Alm about. Her vocal performance and lines are charming and all, because this is Shadows of Valentia and they mean business, but holy fuck is she insufferable to watch at times.

Okay this is weird. According to Celica, we've had multiple years of abject failure to grow crops, and yet only now has Rigel invaded, years after Rudolf took out Mila?

Also, I wonder where Celica learned to fight. I don't mean the magic part, that's obvious. I mean the swordfighting. If she were getting trained by Mycen, surely that would've stopped when she left Ram Village and Mycen left her here at this priory, right? Who's been teaching her to use the sword, and if they have someone teaching that here, why is she the only one of her group of friends with any skill in it before promotion?

Nomah: Ah, and you mustn't forget Mila's Turnwheel.

Mustn't we?

...Apparently it's something you “wear”, according to Celica. Huh. I thought it was like a handheld thing.

Celica says she'll “never think of [Lima IV] as [her] father”, but... the way I remember it, doesn't she get irrationally pissed off at Alm for rightly pointing out what a useless shit he was?

Okay, so, they talk more about the famine, and I have to say... how'd they manage to survive for two years if the crops have failed completely, as people have said? Am I expected to believe a kingdom that perpetually was provided for with a ridiculous bounty of food at all times ever felt the need to learn how to preserve it so it would last?

I genuinely cannot conceive of a fight where I'd find myself rewinding twelve goddamned times before I win and then go “man was that fun!”.

 

I like Celica but uh....you're not wrong, I don't think her goals are initially unreasonable but they don't change when they really should have. 

I now imagine Celica/Alm wearing the Turnwheel on their head like an accessory from Heroes, they activate it by head-butting the nearest solid wall, also known as the FE writing process. 

I just presumed that either they had big stores somehow due to Mila blessing the land, but they had stopped actually making a net positive on food and they'd be in trouble if it wasn't sorted out, so they had a massive store, but it's depleting and it's at the point where if they don't do anything it'll be big trouble, I mean, this is the game with Magic apples that give you EXP and Fruits that actually increase HP, sure that's gameplay but it does seem like the food in Valentia is more magical (and maybe lasts longer?) than other games. (They have Spicy Chicken at least, with "finger-lickin' spices")

Wait, was Mila killed years ago? I thought she was taken only relatively recently once we get to the Priory.

Honestly I hate re-winding once if it's not my mistake, because then it feels like a band-aid for bad design.

Mae can get a Sword via promoting so I guess maybe the Priory teaches some basic sword-fighting incase of Pirates/to deal with Terrors.

Honestly I like magic piercing Terrain bonuses, even then, It'd be cool if maybe we got a special spell (or other weapons) in later-games that ignored Terrain bonuses, imagine a dumb fun Ballista you could buy that pierced straight through Thrones. (They'd definitely help in FE6 where I'm certain each boss has insane stats then the insane Throne buffs kick in.)

 

21 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I honestly prefer Celica to Alm cause unlike mr. perfect over there she actually has flaws that are challenged by the narrative. Say what you will about the jedah stuff but at least it builds off of established character flaws of hers and serves to show how she was wrong about a lot of things in the end. Still doesn’t excuse the other mysoginistic ways she’s written but it’s better than what I can say about Alm.

I can understand character mistakes if they happen in a way where someone could plausibly make that mistake, but Celica literally has every single god damn Regelian (Some of which are actually Duma Faithful themselves!) in the Sage's Hamlet (And Sonya) telling her how completely evil Jedah, if she at least was shown considering it that'd be fine, but then she acts actually surprised when Jedah is evil later.

It really only serves to make her a damsel in distress in the end.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Samz707

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

I can understand character mistakes if they happen in a way where someone could plausibly make that mistake, but Celica literally has every single god damn Regelian (Some of which are actually Duma Faithful themselves!) in the Sage's Hamlet (And Sonya) telling her how completely evil Jedah, if she at least was shown considering it that'd be fine, but then she acts actually surprised when Jedah is evil later.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing just that at least Celica has flaws that are meaningfully challenged and built upon by the narrative unlike Alm who is just perfect. She at least has a character arc. How well said arc is executed is another matter entirely.

[Acacia Sgt]

I think it's stated they had to rely more on fishing, since Mila's blessing doesn't exactly cover the oceans and thus was more or less unaffected. I think someone does make a joke about sprouting fins due to all the fish they've eaten. But well, with the rise of Greith and Barth, not even the Oceans are safe, and thus even fishing isn't done enough to give food to the entire island.

---

Regarding the other talk, I've always stood that evil or not, Jedah still has his misguided but not-fully-evil ideal that humanity must remain under the gods' guidance. Which is something Celica also believes. The difference here is that Jedah wants for Duma to the only one in charge. Also, Celica only more or less accepts in full when she learns what exactly happened to Mila. Her reasoning is being impaired on that, thinking Mila has chosen to abandon them by sealing Falchion when she got sealed within in, so in that moment she goes "better to restore Duma so Valentia has someone left to guide them", hence her decision to go through with it.

And it also boils down to this: His intentions are not entirely benign, but Jedah is trying to do an objective good in restoring Duma's sanity. I'll give him props for being like, the only person who actually tries to revert the degeneration process on a Dragon/Manakete. Most of the time everyone considers them lost, animals to be put down or to use as, well, animals. As shown with the barbarian tribes or the Macedonians. Jedah instead goes "No!" on that. At least until he goes "Better a mad god than none at all". Not to disimilar to Celica's line of thought.

That's how it goes. Jedah plans to use her, taking advantage they are like-minded when it comes to the roles of the gods in Valentia.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Samz707]

8 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I’m not necessarily disagreeing just that at least Celica has flaws that are meaningfully challenged and built upon by the narrative unlike Alm who is just perfect. She at least has a character arc. How well said arc is executed is another matter entirely.

Eh, it doesn't really feel like she has one.

She remains flat for 80-90 percent of the game, and realizes she's wrong only by virtue of fucking up and it happens literally at the exact end of the game.

She really should have I guess became a little less devoted to Mila over the course of the game, to the point of recognizing that Jedah was blatantly lying,  (Saber even god damn tells her  that taking your soul is how Witches are made.) she doesn't need to fully denounce Mila but maybe actually realize that blindly hoping the Gods will make it better isn't going to work. (Like the saying about a man waiting for rescue from a flood from god, he turns down a boat and a helicopter, then when he dies, and god when asked, tells him he sent a boat/helicopter.)

EDIT: Okay that spicy-chicken item might have been form that 7/11 promotional event in Japan.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Samz707

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Celica says she'll “never think of [Lima IV] as [her] father”, but... the way I remember it, doesn't she get irrationally pissed off at Alm for rightly pointing out what a useless shit he was?

I think it's reasonable that her feelings would be complicated. Like, I have my own issues with my parents - but if I heard someone else insulting them, I would be likely to defend them.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Okay, so, they talk more about the famine, and I have to say... how'd they manage to survive for two years if the crops have failed completely, as people have said? Am I expected to believe a kingdom that perpetually was provided for with a ridiculous bounty of food at all times ever felt the need to learn how to preserve it so it would last?

Honestly I think coastal/island regions would have a shot, since the presence of fish wouldn't be directly affected. That said, overfishing could make this untenable beyond a couple decades. And it's not like there's any shortage of non-fish consumables, on either route. Maybe some foodstuffs were imported from Rigel, before the war?

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Terrors is apparently capitalized.

God damn this series and its weird inconsistent capitalization.

So were Risen in Awakening. I think it's fine - "Terrors" represents a collection of beings, so it's a proper noun.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yep, and the game makes it clear that magic pierces through terrain effects, an exceedingly useful trait for magic to have in this game where terrain effects are absolutely asinine.

If I play too much Echoes/3H, I have a hard time going back to older titles, and remembering that magic isn't terrain-agnostic.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, looking at the world map again, it's patently absurd that the only way across the island from the southeast to northwest corner is to pass through a graveyard in the northeast corner. The fuck? What is the rest of the island made of that only the zombie-infested graveyard is passable?

Ironically, the graveyard is probably the safest place for Celica's squad right now. If Terrors showed up anywhere else, her team wouldn't have absurd +60-Avoid gravesites to save them.

[Punished Dayni]

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

...Apparently it's something you “wear”, according to Celica. Huh. I thought it was like a handheld thing.

I think they're suggested as being worn like an amulet.

Though they're definitely big enough.

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Also, I wonder where Celica learned to fight. I don't mean the magic part, that's obvious. I mean the swordfighting. If she were getting trained by Mycen, surely that would've stopped when she left Ram Village and Mycen left her here at this priory, right? Who's been teaching her to use the sword, and if they have someone teaching that here, why is she the only one of her group of friends with any skill in it before promotion?

Aren't there priestesses at the temple? Who are shown as a class to have swordfighting capabilities?

Maybe I'm making too broad an argument here.

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Ah yeah, Celica's side has my favorite enemy-phase theme in the game. I just love how intense and creepy it is, especially with that xylophone beat underlying it. As for the player-phase theme, I much prefer the versions in the original and Brawl. They have a life to them that this one just kinda doesn't. It's way too casual.

They're still using the prologue version here, the main version's in Act 3.

Course, Sacrifice and the Saint just turns it up but still.

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, looking at the world map again, it's patently absurd that the only way across the island from the southeast to northwest corner is to pass through a graveyard in the northeast corner. The fuck? What is the rest of the island made of that only the zombie-infested graveyard is passable?

Cliffs?

All I can think of, but yeah the map is not a helpful friend to this game.

[Acacia Sgt]

The world map can certainly be a bit wonky at times when it comes to scale and actual distance between locations.

My estimation? The graveyard isn't that far from the Priory. It could be still part of the priory's churchyard. Historically many Christian churches had a graveyard next or near them. Novis could be based on the concept. Since Terrors aren't the sort of thing you'd worry of showing up, at least until recently, the priory's graveyard could've been built in the road leading to the building itself. Something like this:

Notice how there are graves on both sides of the road leaving to the entrance. As such, the only road leading in and out of the priory has to pass through its graveyard.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

To be more specific, Act 2 opens up with Celica having a nightmare of being a ghost forced to watch while Alm has a showdown with Rudolf, driven into a blind rage by the fact that Rudolf apparently killed her.

 

...I kinda like this moment where Rudolf throws aside his shield dramatically. Like father, like son.

And while it's kinda weird considering this is supposed to be Celica having a bad dream, so it should stay from her perspective... the moment where they just stop letting us hear what Celica's saying to show that nobody can see or hear her is pretty good.

And then Rudolf glows purple and we only get a shot of Ghost Celica's horrified face as we have to assume Alm's impaled straight through. And then she catapults upright in bed, and the cutscene ends. All in all, pretty good cutscene and pretty scary nightmare.

I'm surprised you didn't see fit to mention how this just plain never happens in the story. Rudolf never even attacks Alm in gameplay, so there was never any risk of Alm being killed by Rudolf. And Rudolf glowy purple evil aura suggesting some kind of dark connection to Duma is also something that occurs here and never again with zero explanation. If this is meant to be a prophecy or something then didn't it happen? It's not like Celica did anything to influence the direction of Alm's story. Unless the Halcyon power up is meant to be taken as the sole reason Alm wasn't killed. It's just a pretty weird scene all around.

Quote

Okay this is weird. According to Celica, we've had multiple years of abject failure to grow crops, and yet only now has Rigel invaded, years after Rudolf took out Mila?

So Nomah is presented here as a wise authority figure, but... next time he shows up when he's randomly a playable character, they turn him into this goofy, borderline-senile buffoon.

 

I expect Nomah's characterization is taken from how you recruit him in Gaiden, Namely by finding him under Mila's temple and his explanation for being there that he somehow got compleptely lost. It's a tad ridiculous alright, so extrapolating that into him being something of a nut job isn't the worst way of creating a character where there was none before. His dialogue here is probably just being faithful to Gaiden, where we probably were meant to see him as the wise and knowledgeable sage.

Quote

Ah yes, and now we get Boey and Mae, everyone's favorite duo in this game. Though it's mostly Mae that's everyone's favorite. Yeah, and we get the famous “big hurty lightning” line, and the game gives you the option of leaving without talking to Genny, the only cleric that Celica's side ever gets. Of course we invite her, and then we search the priory for loot. We get wine, butter, flour, and...

I do find it a bit weird that they decided to create a whole new female villager promotion line and a new character and then decided to put her on Alm's route, when he already has three villagers versus Celica who only gets one, one pretty late in her route too. Faye would have made way more sense being avilable on Celica's route. And yeah, yeah I know she technically is available on Celica's route if you ignore her on Alm's and then take a detour to Ram village, but let's be real, that's an easter egg and, while it's fun and cool, it's not the way a player is expected to play.

Though in terms of gameplay I never found the lack of Clerics on Celica's route that bad. As overall she has more mages and most of them learn some kind of recovery spell. If you're really eager for another Cleirc, then I will again suggest the DLC characters.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Okay, so, they talk more about the famine, and I have to say... how'd they manage to survive for two years if the crops have failed completely, as people have said? Am I expected to believe a kingdom that perpetually was provided for with a ridiculous bounty of food at all times ever felt the need to learn how to preserve it so it would last?

 

Might depend on what crops fail. Famine doesn't necessarily hit all food sources. The eh, orange crop obviously hasn't been hit so hard given they're absolutely everywhere in Valentia. Maybe the worst thing about the famine is that Zofians are spoiled and they've gotten sick of persisting entirely on oranges and cookies.

Quote

 

Yeah, looking at the world map again, it's patently absurd that the only way across the island from the southeast to northwest corner is to pass through a graveyard in the northeast corner. The fuck? What is the rest of the island made of that only the zombie-infested graveyard is passable?

 

 

I don't think the graveyard was zombie infested until recently. Though these specific enemies to remain on the world map in Chapter 6, so make what you will of that.

4 hours ago, Samz707 said:

I like Celica but uh....you're not wrong, I don't think her goals are initially unreasonable but they don't change when they really should have. 

I now imagine Celica/Alm wearing the Turnwheel on their head like an accessory from Heroes, they activate it by head-butting the nearest solid wall, also known as the FE writing process. 

I just presumed that either they had big stores somehow due to Mila blessing the land, but they had stopped actually making a net positive on food and they'd be in trouble if it wasn't sorted out, so they had a massive store, but it's depleting and it's at the point where if they don't do anything it'll be big trouble, I mean, this is the game with Magic apples that give you EXP and Fruits that actually increase HP, sure that's gameplay but it does seem like the food in Valentia is more magical (and maybe lasts longer?) than other games. (They have Spicy Chicken at least, with "finger-lickin' spices")

Wait, was Mila killed years ago? I thought she was taken only relatively recently once we get to the Priory.

Honestly I hate re-winding once if it's not my mistake, because then it feels like a band-aid for bad design.

Mae can get a Sword via promoting so I guess maybe the Priory teaches some basic sword-fighting incase of Pirates/to deal with Terrors.

Honestly I like magic piercing Terrain bonuses, even then, It'd be cool if maybe we got a special spell (or other weapons) in later-games that ignored Terrain bonuses, imagine a dumb fun Ballista you could buy that pierced straight through Thrones. (They'd definitely help in FE6 where I'm certain each boss has insane stats then the insane Throne buffs kick in.)

 

I can understand character mistakes if they happen in a way where someone could plausibly make that mistake, but Celica literally has every single god damn Regelian (Some of which are actually Duma Faithful themselves!) in the Sage's Hamlet (And Sonya) telling her how completely evil Jedah, if she at least was shown considering it that'd be fine, but then she acts actually surprised when Jedah is evil later.

It really only serves to make her a damsel in distress in the end.

A lot of my issues with that plot line I lay at the feet of Jedah rather than Celica. It would have worked considerably better if they'd given Jedah an ounce of charisma or actually made him genuine in all that he's saying to her. I'm not even certain Jedah knew what he was doing by offering her's Duma's soul. He wavers back and forth several times with his motivation being to help cure Duma's madness; and because stfu Duma wants chaos and Duma gets what Duma wants.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Jotari

[lenticular]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I do find it a bit weird that they decided to create a whole new female villager promotion line and a new character and then decided to put her on Alm's route, when he already has three villagers versus Celica who only gets one, one pretty late in her route too. Faye would have made way more sense being avilable on Celica's route. And yeah, yeah I know she technically is available on Celica's route if you ignore her on Alm's and then take a detour to Ram village, but let's be real, that's an easter egg and, while it's fun and cool, it's not the way a player is expected to play.

My assumption would be that this happened the other way around. That is, I assume she was originally conceived for storyline reasons ("let's have a female Ram villager" "she could have a crush on Alm") and that the new promotion line was created specifically for the character. That said, since they did make female villager a thing, they could have created a new one for Celica's party as well.

[Eltosian Kadath]

18 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Don’t go pointing the finger at me for starting this argument it was Samz707 who brought up the what aboutism bullshit. And again you’re going on with the what aboutism. That’s a logical fallacy.

Wasn't making a What Aboutism fallacy, for my statements to be a What Aboutism fallacy, I would be making the claim that Awakening also doing this bad thing makes it OK for SoV to do it too, I am simply responding to you making claims about how the bad thing they both did were OK when Awakening did them, as they are bad in both.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

And so begins Act 2. And in contrast to Alm, whose biggest flaw in this story is that beyond the witty character writing he's kinda boring... now we control Celica, whose fatal flaw is that she's annoying and stupid. From what I remember, her goals are weird, the fight between her and Alm is entirely her fault, she completely falls for the lies of man so blatantly scalp-deep in black magic that it's made his skin turn Corpse Bride blue, and with the exception of her decision to leave with Mycen at the end of the childhood opening, she's never shown to be correct or in the right about a single goddamned thing she disagrees with Alm about. Her vocal performance and lines are charming and all, because this is Shadows of Valentia and they mean business, but holy fuck is she insufferable to watch at times.

I'm open to being proven wrong by the story, but... that is undoubtedly how I remember her.

Such a harsh memory of Celica. I may comment on these topics as they come up in the story, although I think they touched on her goals already, so I will comment there. I don't think her goals are particularly weird; her goal is to end the famine and rising Terrors by getting Mila into returning her blessing to the land.

 

52 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

Okay, so, they talk more about the famine, and I have to say... how'd they manage to survive for two years if the crops have failed completely, as people have said? Am I expected to believe a kingdom that perpetually was provided for with a ridiculous bounty of food at all times ever felt the need to learn how to preserve it so it would last?

Food can go bad very quickly without refrigeration, so doing some efforts to preserve food for latter in the month, which also happens to preserve it for a few years, seems reasonable to me.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I honestly prefer Celica to Alm cause unlike mr. perfect over there she actually has flaws that are challenged by the narrative. Say what you will about the jedah stuff but at least it builds off of established character flaws of hers and serves to show how she was wrong about a lot of things in the end. Still doesn’t excuse the other mysoginistic ways she’s written but it’s better than what I can say about Alm.

Alm does have a flaw that is challenged by the narrative. Alm jumps to violence without thinking through the situation carefully. It isn't that he is angry and wrathful, just that he is willing to act with violence despite his lack of information. Hearing the bandits have a hostage is enough for him to jump out of hiding without even taking advantage of their stealth for an ambush, or figuring out how dangerous they might be. When he hears the Deliverance has been driven off with Clair captured, he doesn't try to find out where the Deliverance went after that, he just bursts in to retake the fort, etc. It all culminates in all the pieces being layer out for him to figure out the truth about himself, with him even admitting to Clive that he knows something is up, but he presses on with his conquest anyway without trying figuring it out, and pays the price for that.

 

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

...Apparently it's something you “wear”, according to Celica. Huh. I thought it was like a handheld thing.

If it's something you wear... It could be worn like a pendant or something.

[Samz707]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

 

A lot of my issues with that plot line I lay at the feet of Jedah rather than Celica. It would have worked considerably better if they'd given Jedah an ounce of charisma or actually made him genuine in all that he's saying to her. I'm not even certain Jedah knew what he was doing by offering her's Duma's soul. He wavers back and forth several times with his motivation being to help cure Duma's madness; and because stfu Duma wants chaos and Duma gets what Duma wants.

That would admittingly help but the fact that IMO Sage's Hamlet practically has most of it's dialogue (not counting the Alm stuff) be people telling Celica (including actual Duma Faithful worshippers) how bad he is makes it really hard to see it as a believable trap as she's flat-out told she's evil by good natured people who worship Duma and kept her brother safe.

Sage's Hamlet would also need massively re-written to make Celica not seem like she's lost all her brain cells for the sake of the plot. 

 

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

My assumption would be that this happened the other way around. That is, I assume she was originally conceived for storyline reasons ("let's have a female Ram villager" "she could have a crush on Alm") and that the new promotion line was created specifically for the character. That said, since they did make female villager a thing, they could have created a new one for Celica's party as well.

Celica should have been able to recruit the Blacksmith as a Villager, now Best Girl is playable.

 

19 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If it's something you wear... It could be worn like a pendant or something.

Nah, clearly Alm and Celica are actually wearing them as hats, just like in Heroes. (Joking aside I'm honestly surprised the Turnwheel isn't a Accessory in that game.)

 

45 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

 

Alm does have a flaw that is challenged by the narrative. Alm jumps to violence without thinking through the situation carefully. It isn't that he is angry and wrathful, just that he is willing to act with violence despite his lack of information. Hearing the bandits have a hostage is enough for him to jump out of hiding without even taking advantage of their stealth for an ambush, or figuring out how dangerous they might be. When he hears the Deliverance has been driven off with Clair captured, he doesn't try to find out where the Deliverance went after that, he just bursts in to retake the fort, etc. It all culminates in all the pieces being layer out for him to figure out the truth about himself, with him even admitting to Clive that he knows something is up, but he presses on with his conquest anyway without trying figuring it out, and pays the price for that.

 

I would say it's not the same extent as Celica. (Though IMO it's more Celica shouldn't have been as dumb rather than Alm being too perfect.)

I feel like instead of Celica being dumb for the sake of plot, there should have been a "Canas-like" situation for her second act, where she can mess up and get someone killed and have people hate for it like Alm does. (Granted this would seemingly require a big deviation from Gaiden.)

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I'm surprised you didn't see fit to mention how this just plain never happens in the story. Rudolf never even attacks Alm in gameplay, so there was never any risk of Alm being killed by Rudolf. And Rudolf glowy purple evil aura suggesting some kind of dark connection to Duma is also something that occurs here and never again with zero explanation. If this is meant to be a prophecy or something then didn't it happen? It's not like Celica did anything to influence the direction of Alm's story. Unless the Halcyon power up is meant to be taken as the sole reason Alm wasn't killed. It's just a pretty weird scene all around.

Celica also saves Alm earlier in Act IV, when Berkut throws hands at him. Admittedly, that one was indirect, since it was a protective magic from the pendant Celica gave him.

As for this nightmare, I don't believe its provenance was ever established. Perhaps it was concocted by Jedah, as a way to manipulate Celica from the very beginning? Make her fearful of Alm's demise, and willing to do anything to prevent it. That's just a shot in the dark, though.

15 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If it's something you wear... It could be worn like a pendant or something.

Given its function, it would make perfect sense as a wristwatch. Although, that would likely be a tad anachronistic.

41 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Alm does have a flaw that is challenged by the narrative. Alm jumps to violence without thinking through the situation carefully. It isn't that he is angry and wrathful, just that he is willing to act with violence despite his lack of information. Hearing the bandits have a hostage is enough for him to jump out of hiding without even taking advantage of their stealth for an ambush, or figuring out how dangerous they might be. When he hears the Deliverance has been driven off with Clair captured, he doesn't try to find out where the Deliverance went after that, he just bursts in to retake the fort, etc. It all culminates in all the pieces being layer out for him to figure out the truth about himself, with him even admitting to Clive that he knows something is up, but he presses on with his conquest anyway without trying figuring it out, and pays the price for that.

While I agree that this is a flaw of his, does the game ever punish him for this? Like, maybe the death of Rudolf can be considered a consequence of this rashness. But this, too, was something that Rudolf had planned for - borne of the king's machinations, rather than the peasant-prince's proclivities. It's depicted as a necessary tragedy.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I do find it a bit weird that they decided to create a whole new female villager promotion line and a new character and then decided to put her on Alm's route, when he already has three villagers versus Celica who only gets one, one pretty late in her route too. Faye would have made way more sense being avilable on Celica's route. And yeah, yeah I know she technically is available on Celica's route if you ignore her on Alm's and then take a detour to Ram village, but let's be real, that's an easter egg and, while it's fun and cool, it's not the way a player is expected to play.

Though in terms of gameplay I never found the lack of Clerics on Celica's route that bad. As overall she has more mages and most of them learn some kind of recovery spell. If you're really eager for another Cleirc, then I will again suggest the DLC characters.

Presumably, they wanted to hold themselves to one new playable character on either side.

Agreed on the Cleric point. You only get one, but her side has a ton of healers (Nomah, promoted Mae, Boey, Sonya, potentially promoted Atlas - and of course, Celica herself). It's a side effect of getting a ton of mages.

 

[Ottservia]

57 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Alm does have a flaw that is challenged by the narrative. Alm jumps to violence without thinking through the situation carefully. It isn't that he is angry and wrathful, just that he is willing to act with violence despite his lack of information. Hearing the bandits have a hostage is enough for him to jump out of hiding without even taking advantage of their stealth for an ambush, or figuring out how dangerous they might be. When he hears the Deliverance has been driven off with Clair captured, he doesn't try to find out where the Deliverance went after that, he just bursts in to retake the fort, etc. It all culminates in all the pieces being layer out for him to figure out the truth about himself, with him even admitting to Clive that he knows something is up, but he presses on with his conquest anyway without trying figuring it out, and pays the price for that.

Okay then tell me which one of those situations where he winds up in a worse position than he did before. For a character flaw to actually be meaningful it has to hinder him in some way which never happens to Alm until maybe until the very end and by that point it’s a little and the payoff just doesn’t land. On the other hand Celica is constantly. She’s constantly making stupid decisions and winding up in terrible situations as a result. It’s basic cause and effect. 

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd say it likely is that his blunders are mostly optional. He does get chewed out if he fails to save Mathilda and Delthea, but since it's not something that has to happen, then he gets to avoid it.