Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Alastor15243]

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I am looking, but beyond obsessed with Robin, former Plegian, and is a curse slinging dark mage, I am not finding anything else going on for Tharja. You can match that level of detail with Faye at least with, obsessed with Alm, from Ram village, and intends to remain a village girl.

I don't think so. Tharja has support conversations where she doesn't talk about Robin. She in fact has plenty, and when she does talk about Robin, it doesn't become a support-consuming black hole. As gross of a character as Tharja is, she's not nearly as predictable and one-note as Faye is.

[Eltosian Kadath]

16 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I don't think so. Tharja has support conversations where she doesn't talk about Robin. She in fact has plenty, and when she does talk about Robin, it doesn't become a support-consuming black hole. As gross of a character as Tharja is, she's not nearly as predictable and one-note as Faye is.

But a majority of Tharja support chains do involve Robin, and about the only note I am seeing added in the ones that are is that she is a Dark Mage. Honestly running through so many of them emphasizes how one (arguably two) note she is with how repetitive they become.

[Alastor15243]

28 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

But a majority of Tharja support chains do involve Robin, and about the only note I am seeing added in the ones that are is that she is a Dark Mage. Honestly running through so many of them emphasizes how one (arguably two) note she is with how repetitive they become.

It's still a false equivalency to say that Tharja is just as bad as Faye, who is on a whoooooole other level of unacceptably one-dimensional. And Tharja's supports were written by someone who gave significantly more of a shit as well.

[Samz707]

19 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

It's still a false equivalency to say that Tharja is just as bad as Faye, who is on a whoooooole other level of unacceptably one-dimensional. And Tharja's supports were written by someone who gave significantly more of a shit as well.

I feel like it kinda doesn't work since Tharja goes right back to Robin-centric once the supports end in all of her other dialogue, even if she gets married.

Faye is at least consistent while Tharja basically snaps back because we can't actually have supports effect anything outside of them.

If Echoes had the romance supports and I could have her and Tobin S-rank, yet afterwards literally all of her dialogue is still about Alm, that'd just be worse IMO.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Samz707

[Eltosian Kadath]

4 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

It's still a false equivalency to say that Tharja is just as bad as Faye, who is on a whoooooole other level of unacceptably one-dimensional.

The main difference I am seeing is that Tharja has more garbage to sift through.

33 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

And Tharja's supports were written by someone who gave significantly more of a shit as well.

The multitude of monotonous supports really skews things, as it makes the content of the two characters supports indicate the opposite of this assertion. It looks like the writer of Faye's supports cared more about Faye than the writer of Tharja's supports cared about Tharja. All of Faye's supports focus on Faye, whereas some of Tharja's supports spend a fair bit of time explaining how Dark Mages work in Awakening as a way to avoid having to write about Tharja's character. I don't think either cared that much, and both are just as one note, with the difference mostly coming out due to how much they felt required to write.

[Ottservia]

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

But a majority of Tharja support chains do involve Robin, and about the only note I am seeing added in the ones that are is that she is a Dark Mage. Honestly running through so many of them emphasizes how one (arguably two) note she is with how repetitive they become.

That is just incorrect, I can name like 3 supports of hers off the top of my head that don’t do that. Her Virion, Lon’qu, and Nowi supports are all supports showcasing how she’s actually a really nice person deep down despite how she carries herself. Her Vaike support is honestly really cute because there she needs to learn to bot be such a loner and trust the other people in camp. To say she’s as one Dimensional as Faye is just false and just arguing in bad faith.

[Eltosian Kadath]

18 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That is just incorrect, I can name like 3 supports of hers off the top of my head that don’t do that. Her Virion, Lon’qu, and Nowi supports are all supports showcasing how she’s actually a really nice person deep down despite how she carries herself. Her Vaike support is honestly really cute because there she needs to learn to bot be such a loner and trust the other people in camp. To say she’s as one Dimensional as Faye is just false and just arguing in bad faith.

Before I made that statement I went through her supports to check that a majority of them did.

The Tharja-Nowi support literally starts with her trying to talk Nowi out of a Talon so she can magically discern her future prospects with Robin

Lon'qu-Tharja support ends with her admitting that she will be stalking Robin while they are married (although not marrying her will give her more time to do so)

I don't know what you reading into the  Virion-Tharja support, other than both of them being equally creepy.

As for Vaike, it sounds similar to the revelation Faye has at the end of her Silque support chain, that despite her attempts to rebuff Silque, the friendship had taken root. Despite her acting like Alm is all she needs, it wasn't true, she needed the friendship of others as well. Also the Vaike support involves Vaike interrupting Tharja stalking Robin.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Eltosian Kadath
Added more info that wasn't jumping to the top of my head.

[Ottservia]

22 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Before I made that statement I went through her supports to check that a majority of them did, and for the record the Tharja-Nowi support literally starts with her trying to talk Nowi out of a Talon so she can magically discern her future prospects with Robin...

As for Vaike, it sounds similar to the revelation Faye has at the end of her Silque support chain, that despite her attempts to rebuff Silque, the friendship had taken root. Despite her acting like Alm is all she needs, it wasn't true, she needed the friendship of others as well.

Still incorrect because the supports still has more going on than just “oh she’s a dark mage and that’s what they do” it has her trying to find Nowi’s parents and when she fails she lies to doare Nowi’s feelings. Like I said there is far more nuance than you seem to be letting on. If you want to find a contradiction in my argument that badly you’re not going to and even so, I don’t think the comparison works because I would hardly call Tharja a yandere more like a more sadistic tsundere. Faye is a yandere though. Faye and tharja are very different characters because the similarities begin and end with their obsession with the main character. Also in regards to the Vaike support that’s another one where the nuances make the difference. In the Vaike support Tharja rejects him because she wants to be alone and doesn’t wanna deal with his stupidity. She only comes to accept his trust when he takes a blow to protect her. In the Faye and Silque supports Faye tells to her to fuck off for two conversations because she’s not Alm and then just apologizes in the A support. And even if the comparison. Tharja has more supports that show off different aspects of her character like her Nowi support or Lon’qu support or Virion support. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Ottservia

[Eltosian Kadath]

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Still incorrect because the supports still has more going on than just “oh she’s a dark mage and that’s what they do” it has her trying to find Nowi’s parents and when she fails she lies to doare Nowi’s feelings. Like I said there is far more nuance than you seem to be letting on.

Or Tharja is true to her goals at the beginning, securing supplies to creep on Robin, even if she has to lie and make nice to the manakete to do so.

 

6 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Also in regards to the Vaike support that’s another one where the nuances make the difference. In the Vaike support Tharja rejects him because she wants to be alone and doesn’t wanna deal with his stupidity. She only comes to accept his trust when he takes a blow to protect her.

Tharja is irritated with Vaike because he keeps interrupting her while she is stalking Robin.

I will also note that people taking a blow for Tharja is an oddly recurrent plot element to multiple of her A supports.

 

7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

In the Faye and Silque supports Faye tells to her to fuck off for two conversations because she’s not Alm and then just apologizes in the A support.

Which shows that Faye came to realize the value of their friendship in and of itself, instead of recognizing an extrenal value to it, like people being willing to take a hit for her.

 

18 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Tharja has more supports that show off different aspects of her character like her Nowi support or Lon’qu support or Virion support. 

Virion's is mostly just her assuming he has been hexed (or trying to hex him), and him going along with it because he likes being dominated by women. A lot of characterization about how the hexes of dark mages work in that one.

[Alastor15243]

Shadows of Valentia Day 7: Ending Act 1

Alright, let's get right back into it. What I find interesting is that apparently this is treated as two separate groups, Desaix's and Slayde's, being on the same map, like when generic skirmishes just throw their lot in with with pre-existing story battles. Makes me wonder whose units are specifically whose.

Desaix talking about how comfortable a throne is while his sprite is still in full armor is kinda ridiculous. As is the idea that a chancellor would be fighting in heavy armor to begin with if he deigned to train in any kind of combat at all.

Okay, so either Desaix just has an arrogant misimpression that he'll be king of Zofia when the Rigelian Empire is finished conquering, or that was actually the deal.

...Can I just say how utterly bizarre it is, yet again, that this game just calls the Rigelian Empire an “empire” well before it actually does any imperial shit? I get they're trying to take over Zofia now, but I mean before that. It's a single unified state ruled by a god for centuries, the territory Duma was given when they split the continent between them. What, were there indigenous people outside of Mila and Duma's jurisdiction living there with their own countries that were taken over, and Mila agreed to a deal that involved splitting up their territory by annexing territory that wasn't theirs? Hell, the wiki just flat-out calls Rigel a kingdom despite also calling it the Rigelian Empire. Funny how both Gaiden and Sacred Stones have this problem, given how much Sacred Stones was taking cues from Gaiden.

But yeah, Desaix's men caught Fernand in the woods shortly after he deserted the Deliverance, and...

...Uh yeah, sorry, I'm not a big fan of Desaix's voice performance. It's not convincing at all, it's kinda hammy, but... in a sort of un-genuine way where it doesn't feel like the actor's really feeling it.

But yeah, Fernand tells Desaix all about Alm, and Desaix, who knows full well Mycen never had any grandchildren (I think not even any children), picks up on who Alm must truly be. It sounds like he knows about Mycen's history with Rigel. And that Rudolf must be behind where Alm wound up. Uh... does that mean he knows full well he's siding with someone who's planning to lose on purpose?

And then Desaix decides Fernand's worth keeping around, and introduces him to Berkut. Who has damned near everyone's favorite vocal performance in the entire game. And he's introduced in a dramatic ballroom dance with his beloved Rinea, as his bombastic, high-society boss music plays in the background. It's all kinda ridiculous, especially since the cutscene animation can't quite sell the over-the-top music choice like Awakening's and Fates's probably could.

...I feel like I should have remembered Berkut calling us “clodhoppers”, whatever the fuck that means.

And yeah, Rinea instantly establishes herself as a kindhearted person by not wanting to watch the battle with the Deliverance like it's some entertainment. “War is horrible, and I will make no spectacle of it”.

Yes, and uh... I... Fernand seems almost turned on by discovering someone who shares his arrogant deterministic beliefs of human worth.

I have very conflicting thoughts on what Alm being secretly royal does to this particular theme of the story. On the one hand, it technically does almost nothing to disprove Fernand's beliefs about the world that the person he rejected as common and thus unable to amount to anything... simultaneously amounted to something and turned out to not be common at all.

On the other hand, there's something bizarrely, hilariously satisfying in seeing these two arrogant asses lord themselves over someone they're both gradually forced to realize is even higher on the food chain than they are.

Anyway, Kliff is at least fast enough to obliterate the archers on the wall. So that's one annoyance that I don't have to deal with this time.

...Something about the save menu that bugs me is the fact that the prompt to choose between saving or not is vertical instead of horizontal. It makes me terrified I'll accidentally reflexively move to another save and overwrite it without thinking, since the “select file” direction and the “yes or no” direction are the same. Admittedly, Fates technically had this problem as well with the extra save files for each path you unlock. But it feels... different here.

Oooooh! The map theme has been upgraded using more intense instruments! I forgo they did this! Though of course, it's got nothing on the map theme they use later, but... we'll get to that.

...I forgot to check if I could just un-deploy units I didn't find useful. I'll have to check that out eventually, but I don't feel like restarting just for that.

...Okay, so, skill and defense for Kliff. I was hoping for speed, but defense is great. Especially since it now brings him up to 10.

This is a bit of a frustrating level to navigate. Gaiden was always at its strongest gameplaywise when the whole map rushed you at once. Here, the entire map waits until you come to them, which isn't nearly as fun, especially when maps are rather sparsely populated and large and winding. Navigating units through narrow passageways is always a pain as well.

Oh yeah, and Faye gets the same level as Kliff. Skill and defense.

Paladin Clive is doing pretty well, charging straight into some archers and doing decent damage. I gave him the iron lance and Clair the steel lance, since Clair needed the strength more and Clive needed the speed more.

Alm, Faye and Clive are covering the 3-wide passageway the cavalry are all charging down. It's pretty straightforward.

...Ooooooh! The boss theme they picked for Slayde is pretty cool!

...Though it's lame that they just kinda forcibly turn any boss conversation with him into a personal one specifically with Alm. He attacks Faye, and it's Alm who he talks to.

Kliff's started getting pretty great level ups (HP, Attack, skill and luck), but still aggressively refuses to gain speed.

Kliff's got curved shot, and it's reasonably handy to have, especially on this terrain giving everyone 20 avoid. Terrain is kinda busted here.

Kliff makes his first debut as a mage killer and does pretty well, mostly due to a crit though. Didn't take much damage at least.

Oh man, the “no damage” counterattack animation for snipers is fucking amazing. It's just this no-shits-given midair side-roll 360 noscope, and I fucking love it.

Yet again, I'm noticing a hell of a lot of skill and luck levels everywhere. It's like those are the top priority before anyone can get anything good!

One improvement I really like about this game is that they let enemies hold items that you won't automatically get by beating them. It makes enemy archers a lot better, most importantly. That said, I do appreciate that not every archer has anti-flier weapons equipped. It's a nice change of pace, especially considering their ridiculous range. Something I'm not, in general, a fan of. I think it gives them a ridiculous level of map dominance, especially when they still have their anti-flier ability.

Kliff finally gains speed! Along with attack and skill, so sweet!

And with the kill he got that level from, the battle is over. The kill list scrolls up, I see Kliff's staggering body count, and I just laugh. He got 9 kills (mostly archers, to be fair) and nobody else got more than 2.

And with that, we're victorious.

...Yeah, uh... honestly, I think I've decided that apart from the writers giving him a lot of charming lines... I'm not a huge fan of Alm's personality. I think Ike did this sort of character archetype way better. He's a bit too... it's hard to put into words, but he's a bit too generic hero personality for me. Honestly, more than almost any other protagonist in the series.

Well, we're in the castle, so, time to talk to people and grab everything that isn't painted on the walls.

The female soldier who exposits about the Royal Sword does something I rather don't like. So, in the original, she explicitly said only royals could wield the royal sword, while here she just says something that merely implies that Desaix isn't worthy of it, or not skilled enough to do its power justice. The reason this is important is that this game moves the moment where the game explicitly says only royalty can wield it... to right when Alm gets his hands on it. In the original game, as long as Alm wasn't armed with any of your equipment when you got the royal sword, you might not even think about the implications of Alm being able to use it, because the description was a while back. It's not perfect, but it's definitely better than just having the game show Alm able to use the sword only royalty can use and then have everyone be “but... but what could this possibly mean!?”. It's really, really dumb.

Anyway, time to loot the treasure room. We get a ridersbane, a blue cheese, a bottle of wine, another bottle of Ram wine, a black pearl, and... I think that's it.

And yeah, we go into the main hall and Alm decides that instead of garrisoning in the castle and waiting for Rigel to come to them, they need to go on the offensive and take back all of Zofia. That's... yeah, I'd say that's a good call, considering the enemy they're up against. They've got no hope in the long run if they let Rigel swarm everything around them. They need to take out the enemy piece by piece before it can all be rallied at their doorstep.

Clive's voice actor, uh... said a line that was definitely intended to be shouted out, and... he didn't. Like, he spoke differently, but... it was such a subdued attempt at a shout that it was... really, really weird and awkward.

Gray and Tobin talk again about Gray's claim that Alm was always destined for great things, and... yeah, it's kinda obnoxious how much of a “super special chosen one” Alm is. It feels like this game leans into that harder than Fates does, which is... really scary.

Apparently Mycen's been a wanted criminal for years, framed for the murder of the royal bloodline, and Slayde made sure everyone important at Zofia Castle knew where he lives something like a decade ago... and nobody went to capture him. Is he just that feared? Then why would Celica have to leave once her location was found out?

...Oh. Oh, so he was living out his sentence. Of banishment. And apparently banishment to Ram village counts.

Some woman gossips about Princess Anthiese, and some other woman talks about her brother from another mother. Ah yes. The new character they added to Celica's side of the story. And I'm kinda pissed they still had Celica do the thing she does even after his contributions to the story.

We get another steel lance and an iron shield, and then move on.

...Oh right. This is the old man who reveals that Mycen isn't Alm's grandfather.

Yeah, so, time to go up the staircase and talk to Mycen. But the guy who told Alm to go up on the balcony... is apparently under orders to keep who it is a surprise, which is kinda ridiculous. Why would Mycen tell him that?

...Yeah, I still don't have any understanding of why Mycen did anything he did in Act 1. His behavior just seems so bizarre and devoid of any realistic goal.

Ah yes. And now we get a scene at Rigel Castle. And I really, really like this one part of it at the end, but let's see if there's anything else worth commenting on before that point.

Nope. Not too much to the scene, just some vague, ominous introductions of characters we'll see later. But this exchange:

Rudolf: You said the leader of this deliverance is named “Alm”, correct?

Rigelian Soldier: Yes, Emperor. He assumed command after Sir Clive of the Knights of Zofia stepped down.

Rudolf: (Smiles) Did he now...

I love this because at the time, this looks like a big bad evil emperor blood knight sort of guy intrigued by the possibility of a worthy opponent. But then you beat the game and play again and realize no, this is a guy smiling because he's just proud of his son. It's weirdly adorable.

...That said... unless this specific soldier has reported stuff to Rudolf earlier, uh... he didn't mention Alm's name in this conversation. Which makes it weird that Rudolf didn't ask this question in the previous unseen conversation where he would have first found out Alm was leading the deliverance army.

Alright, that's the end of Act 1. Act 2, with Celica, will begin tomorrow. Sorry for missing yesterday! I might be doing a Saturday update just to bring things back to 5 a week.

Stay safe, everyone!

[Ottservia]

31 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Virion's is mostly just her assuming he has been hexed (or trying to hex him), and him going along with it because he likes being dominated by women. A lot of characterization about how the hexes of dark mages work in that one.

Again this is blatently incorrect. Are we reading the same support? The explicitly stated reason he pretends to be hexed is because she had him doing good things for other people. He could’ve stopped any time he wanted but he didn’t because he felt like he was doing a good deed. If you’re gonna criticize, get your facts straight

 

31 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I will also note that people taking a blow for Tharja is an oddly recurrent plot element to multiple of her A supports.

Hmm yeah I wonder why that it is. Maybe because it’s an integral part of her character they want you to focus on. The repetition is there to make sure you get the point. Repitition isn’t bad inherently. It’s when there is nothing but repitition that it becomes a problem like with Faye. Again when it happens with Tharja it’s there to resolve a character arc unlike with Faye it’s just there to show how one dimensional she is. And the basis for this argument is stupid because you’re not really proving me wrong because the comparison doesn’t prove Faye not to be one dimensional. It just serves to take a jab at Tharja which doesn’t help Faye at all. She’s still one dimensional character whose sole defining character was to simp for Alm. And she was added to the remake for the explicit stated reason for more female representation. I don’t know about you but that is a big yikes. Plus she’s the only female character on Alm’s path that isn’t a damsel in distress and uhhh yeah that certainly has some problematic implications.
 

For as obsessive as Tharja is with Robin, she wasn’t added for the sake of female representation and even if she was. Her sole defining character trait isn’t that she’s obsessed with Robin. There are things mixed in there too and the narrative treats her with respect cause she still has her own agency and can get with the man she wants. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Ottservia

[Sunwoo]

Why, don't you know that there's no better enemy state than an empire, even if it makes no fucking logical sense in the context of the story?

[Punished Dayni]

42 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

...I forgot to check if I could just un-deploy units I didn't find useful. I'll have to check that out eventually, but I don't feel like restarting just for that.

Yes.

44 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

...Oh. Oh, so he was living out his sentence. Of banishment. And apparently banishment to Ram village counts.

Beats me.

Then again, the layout of Zofia as a nation isn't really explained at all. I feel like I don't get how much of Valentia really works anyway (The swamps of east Rigel? The Desert? Is there much of any ties with Novis? because at times you could blink and see it as autonomous.)

Is it that after a certain point they never really enforced order upon the periphery? In the prologue a knight showing up's a big deal, indicating of course Ram's distance from the capital. And with how Lima was I could see them really being tied close to the capital to keep him safe after the fire if he even cared about that.

I could believe that Mycen was banished from the palace, but it's a lot odd he was left in Ram considering why unless they never bothered to keep tabs on him so long as he stayed in his box.

[Acacia Sgt]

The east side of the continent is certainly treated as remote enough from the rest. The Valentian Accordion timeline also has a bandit kingdom rising there that both Duma and Mila had to put down. That's where the original Rigel and Zofia proved themselves worthy of being blessed with the dragon blood binds with the siblings. Wow, lowborns rising to high positions through their hard work. A slap in the face to Fernand's ideology right there in the backstory. It's kinda funny. Since all that classist divisions he cherishes only came to be precisely because many lowborns proved themselves to elevate themselves from the rest long ago, and then they or their descendants entrenched themselves to keep it that way.

Novis' situation is more of a recent thing. With Lima IV's hedonism and debauchery being too strong he only cared for his immediate surroundings. Add the hardships Zofia is currently going leading to the rise of pirates without the Zofian army keeping them in check, and Novis not only being periphery but also an island, it makes sense it makes it look like they're isolated.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Samz707]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

 

For as obsessive as Tharja is with Robin, she wasn’t added for the sake of female representation and even if she was. Her sole defining character trait isn’t that she’s obsessed with Robin. There are things mixed in there too and the narrative treats her with respect cause she still has her own agency and can get with the man she wants. 

 

You are aware Tharja had an drawn ass shot that had to be censored in the DLC for America? (and if we wanna include Heroes, Faye's new outfit for FEH was an nice dress and beret outfit, I am admittingly biased because I love berets, for Valentine's day while Tharja got a Bikini, for a Christmas Alt, with her only other outfits being Promoted Awakening and a slightly altered version of her fan-service-y outfit for Valentine's day.)

Not to mention she apparently hates her outfit because it's too revealing...and never changes out of it, even in Heroes, so it's not even like she wants to wear her fan-service-y outfit in-character but the devs keep her in it because tits.  (And if she gets with anyone else, she right away reverts to Robin-Worship without it being really commented on.)

I wouldn't really say Tharja is a character treated with respect.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Samz707

[Use the Falchion]

Not stepping into the mess entirely, but of the fourteen endings Tharja has, only three mention Robin: 

1. Her solo ending, where she never gets over him/her;

2. Her paired ending with Robin; and

3. Her paired ending with Kellam, whose paired endings are all tragical(ly hilarious) in some way, shape, or form.

Every other ending has Tharja develop a nice and happy relationship with her spouse...except her ending with Vaike. Which is funny in its own right. 

Tharja's ending with Kellam is the only comparable one with Faye - and even then, I'd treat it as an exception because all of Kellam's supports highlight his partner in a way that echoes said partner's solo ending, and not him. (His marriage to Robin is weird, since Robin's paired ending only changes the gender of the avatar and the spouse. But at least Kellam is remembered in the epilogue...)

To me that shows that even if the core of the character is based around Robin - which it undoubtedly is - there's still enough characterization, personality, and independence left for Tharja to exist happily without Robin providing her a happy ending. Faye...isn't like that...granted, if she had more paired endings, then that may not have been the case. (Which is why I advocate for more paired endings and supports over the minimalist style of SoV, but that's a conversation for the other thread.)

Cordelia, a character who people treat similarly to Tharja in terms of obsessing over a guy, but with Chrom instead of Robin, only mentions the Exalt once in her fourteen endings, and that's because she's answering his call as a knight, not because she's in love with him. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Acacia Sgt]

It's certainly a numbers issue at some point.

Faye only has like, what, two support chains and her base conversations? Compared to Tharja having at least fifteen supports chains and then a couple conversations more thanks to DLC. Just by sheer numbers even in a disadvantaged ratio she will have more non-Robin related stuff than Faye has non-Alm. Faye is certainly at a disadvantage here.

Another missed opportunity there in that Celica can recruit Faye, but outside that talk convo... nada.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Ottservia]

5 hours ago, Samz707 said:

 

You are aware Tharja had an drawn ass shot that had to be censored in the DLC for America? (and if we wanna include Heroes, Faye's new outfit for FEH was an nice dress and beret outfit, I am admittingly biased because I love berets, for Valentine's day while Tharja got a Bikini, for a Christmas Alt, with her only other outfits being Promoted Awakening and a slightly altered version of her fan-service-y outfit for Valentine's day.)

Not to mention she apparently hates her outfit because it's too revealing...and never changes out of it, even in Heroes, so it's not even like she wants to wear her fan-service-y outfit in-character but the devs keep her in it because tits.  (And if she gets with anyone else, she right away reverts to Robin-Worship without it being really commented on.)

I wouldn't really say Tharja is a character treated with respect.

Yeah but what you’re neglecting to mention here is that the male characters receive the same treatment. The fanservice is equal opportunity. The way SoV treats its female cast is far from equal opportunity. Even so it’s a beach dlc. What else do you expect. It’s an anime game these games are made by Japanese nerds. Fanservice is just something to be expected.

[Samz707]

16 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah but what you’re neglecting to mention here is that the male characters receive the same treatment. The fanservice is equal opportunity. The way SoV treats its female cast is far from equal opportunity. Even so it’s a beach dlc. What else do you expect. It’s an anime game these games are made by Japanese nerds. Fanservice is just something to be expected.

Not have a literal ass shot that has to be censored for the game to keep it's 12 Rating? 

You claim the game treats her with respect but well, I'd say she's treated a decent bit as just something for the player to be aroused by. (Hell even Robin's' Journal in the Japanese flat-out says it.)

So I feel like Faye's treated with more respect honestly IMO, her obsession isn't trivialized for shipping (That then gets ignored right away because screw supports actually being meaningful.) and she doesn't feel designed for horny teenagers, it's a low bar to clear admittingly but that's how I feel since she doesn't have a close-up of her ass in the game.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Samz707

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

11 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Okay, so either Desaix just has an arrogant misimpression that he'll be king of Zofia when the Rigelian Empire is finished conquering, or that was actually the deal.

Darin Moment

11 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Anyway, Kliff is at least fast enough to obliterate the archers on the wall. So that's one annoyance that I don't have to deal with this time.

If anyone deserves a redemption arc, it's Kliff.

11 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

The female soldier who exposits about the Royal Sword does something I rather don't like. So, in the original, she explicitly said only royals could wield the royal sword, while here she just says something that merely implies that Desaix isn't worthy of it, or not skilled enough to do its power justice. The reason this is important is that this game moves the moment where the game explicitly says only royalty can wield it... to right when Alm gets his hands on it. In the original game, as long as Alm wasn't armed with any of your equipment when you got the royal sword, you might not even think about the implications of Alm being able to use it, because the description was a while back. It's not perfect, but it's definitely better than just having the game show Alm able to use the sword only royalty can use and then have everyone be “but... but what could this possibly mean!?”. It's really, really dumb.

Interesting context. I kind of like the way you suggest better. What we got is more "theatrical", but the old way sounds like it maintains the "mystery" somewhat better.

As an aside, was this character a female soldier in the original? I ask as a fan of seeing more female NPCs in recent games (even if they were sorely lacking as enemies in SoV).

11 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

...Yeah, I still don't have any understanding of why Mycen did anything he did in Act 1. His behavior just seems so bizarre and devoid of any realistic goal.

Mycen: "I have just one question: Are you ready?"

Alm: "...Am I ready for what?"

Mycen: "ARE YOU READY FOR THIS SUNDAY NIGHT!?!"

11 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

..That said... unless this specific soldier has reported stuff to Rudolf earlier, uh... he didn't mention Alm's name in this conversation. Which makes it weird that Rudolf didn't ask this question in the previous unseen conversation where he would have first found out Alm was leading the deliverance army.

I'm pretty sure that the implication is, we're catching the tail end of this Soldier's report to Rudolf.

[Acacia Sgt]

If Crusader Kings has taught me anything, is that an Emperor can have vassal Kings. Rudolf clearly wants to stay under his demesne limit and thus needs a King vassal to hold k_zofia within his e_rigel title.

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Interesting context. I kind of like the way you suggest better. What we got is more "theatrical", but the old way sounds like it maintains the "mystery" somewhat better.

As an aside, was this character a female soldier in the original? I ask as a fan of seeing more female NPCs in recent games (even if they were sorely lacking as enemies in SoV).

Supposedly, this is the original text:

Dozer escaped with the valuable “Royal Sword.”
That was a gift sent by the Kingdom of Rigel as a sign of friendship in the past.
No normal person can use it. It’s a special sword.

No mention about only royalty, but I suppose it can be inferred since it's the Royal Sword. You can say SoV spoils the surprise by outright saying royalty when Alm holds it, but Gaiden never stated that in the first place. At least when it comes to the Royal Sword.

From what I saw from a picture LP, it seems that no, the soldier was a man in the original.

[Venger_06]

Hey Alastor, maybe it's too late, but I wonder if you can visit my castle and give me a Chef's Hat and a Lottery Hat. Just started a Revelation Lunatic save and it would be very useful to have it.

[Alastor15243]

5 hours ago, Teehee the Sixth said:

Hey Alastor, maybe it's too late, but I wonder if you can visit my castle and give me a Chef's Hat and a Lottery Hat. Just started a Revelation Lunatic save and it would be very useful to have it.

You got it. Would you mind sending it back to me shortly after so I have it on my new file too? Just tell me your castle address.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Jotari]

Can I request we take the whole support arguing about Awakening vs Shadows of Valentia somewhere else? Like the supports complaints thread in general with that conversation is already happening (with many of the same people as here)? It's kind of consuming this entire thread.

18 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

...Can I just say how utterly bizarre it is, yet again, that this game just calls the Rigelian Empire an “empire” well before it actually does any imperial shit? I get they're trying to take over Zofia now, but I mean before that. It's a single unified state ruled by a god for centuries, the territory Duma was given when they split the continent between them. What, were there indigenous people outside of Mila and Duma's jurisdiction living there with their own countries that were taken over, and Mila agreed to a deal that involved splitting up their territory by annexing territory that wasn't theirs? Hell, the wiki just flat-out calls Rigel a kingdom despite also calling it the Rigelian Empire. Funny how both Gaiden and Sacred Stones have this problem, given how much Sacred Stones was taking cues from Gaiden.

 

 

Funnily enough given there was a south eastern pirate nation (probably based around Novis) that became annexed into Zofia, Zofia is the one that has more standing to be called an empire.

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I have very conflicting thoughts on what Alm being secretly royal does to this particular theme of the story. On the one hand, it technically does almost nothing to disprove Fernand's beliefs about the world that the person he rejected as common and thus unable to amount to anything... simultaneously amounted to something and turned out to not be common at all.

On the other hand, there's something bizarrely, hilariously satisfying in seeing these two arrogant asses lord themselves over someone they're both gradually forced to realize is even higher on the food chain than they are.

 

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The female soldier who exposits about the Royal Sword does something I rather don't like. So, in the original, she explicitly said only royals could wield the royal sword, while here she just says something that merely implies that Desaix isn't worthy of it, or not skilled enough to do its power justice. The reason this is important is that this game moves the moment where the game explicitly says only royalty can wield it... to right when Alm gets his hands on it. In the original game, as long as Alm wasn't armed with any of your equipment when you got the royal sword, you might not even think about the implications of Alm being able to use it, because the description was a while back. It's not perfect, but it's definitely better than just having the game show Alm able to use the sword only royalty can use and then have everyone be “but... but what could this possibly mean!?”. It's really, really dumb.

 

I think they were a tad too on the nose with the foreshadowing in Shadows of Valentia. It's not like they really added much that wasn't there before, but I feel like they could get away with it a bit more in Gaiden, but when we're forced to have the characters actually analyze what's being said it becomes so blatant even people in universe should have figured it out (like Desaix managed to). So in lieu of that I think they should have placed in a rather logical red herring by having characters address the whole Royal Sword thing and outright say tht people suspect Alm is one of Lima's bastards. This would put more pressure on him to take the throne of Zofia, which he explicitly does not want to do for most of the game.

 

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...Though it's lame that they just kinda forcibly turn any boss conversation with him into a personal one specifically with Alm. He attacks Faye, and it's Alm who he talks to.

 

Complained about that already -_- Shadows of Valentia has the most frustratingly bad unique boss convos and I have no idea why.

 

 

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Yeah, so, time to go up the staircase and talk to Mycen. But the guy who told Alm to go up on the balcony... is apparently under orders to keep who it is a surprise, which is kinda ridiculous. Why would Mycen tell him that?

Maybe because the whole aforementioned banishing might be a sticking point with some people still around?

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...Yeah, I still don't have any understanding of why Mycen did anything he did in Act 1. His behavior just seems so bizarre and devoid of any realistic goal.

 

Make Alm strong by having him fight for himself I guess.

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I love this because at the time, this looks like a big bad evil emperor blood knight sort of guy intrigued by the possibility of a worthy opponent. But then you beat the game and play again and realize no, this is a guy smiling because he's just proud of his son. It's weirdly adorable.

 

I'd like it better if Rudolf's character design had an ounce of menace in it.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As an aside, was this character a female soldier in the original? I ask as a fan of seeing more female NPCs in recent games (even if they were sorely lacking as enemies in SoV).

 

Well it does have Witches as a pretty common enemy type, which is more than most games that just have the very rare pegasus or even rare valkyrie enemies.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well it does have Witches as a pretty common enemy type, which is more than most games that just have the very rare pegasus or even rare valkyrie enemies.

True, but Witches are an odd case. Having surrendered their souls to Duma, they lack agency - something that the enemy Pegasus Knights and Valkyries in other games retain. Plus, they don't show up in force until Act IV, whereas Pegasus Knights show up fairly early in games like FE7-HM or Conquest.

8 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

No mention about only royalty, but I suppose it can be inferred since it's the Royal Sword. You can say SoV spoils the surprise by outright saying royalty when Alm holds it, but Gaiden never stated that in the first place. At least when it comes to the Royal Sword.

From what I saw from a picture LP, it seems that no, the soldier was a man in the original.

Thanks for the insight! I had assumed as much, but didn't want to make a definitive statement without evidence. 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I'd like it better if Rudolf's character design had an ounce of menace in it.

The dude has a bigass lance, full-body red armor with shield, a spiky crown, evil-looking facial hair, and a deep imposing voice. They give him plenty of threatening villain cues. His face isn't evil-looking, but that works with the game trying to keep his villainy a point of debate (versus, say, Garon or Walhart).