Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Samz707]

8 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

@Samz707I know, that's the problem. FE battles with pre-set units like in Heirs of Fates aren't really my cup of tea.

Fair Enough, I do think you should consider giving them a go, I never really felt like I was forced to play with underlevelled units while I was playing them.  (And I felt like I was stuck with a gimped cast in Awakening.)

Though if you don't want to play them, I do advise at least watching them and their supports/Memory prisms online as I think they're very good storywise.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Samz707

[Seazas]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

We can reignite this conversation, but I'm only going to engage with you if you are actual respective and actually bring some solid arguments to the table. Those are two, I think, very basic conditions. If you don't, I'm simply going to ignore you, because I know actually presenting evidence and solid argument have no compulsion to sway you. Speaking of which,

じいちゃん (Jichan)

Is what Alm calls Mycen in the original Japanese text of Gaiden.

じいさん (Jisan)

Is what he calls Mycen in the Japanese text in Shadows of Valentia.

Jichan is a more informal name than Jisan. These are rendered as gramps and grandfather in the English language versions which is pretty accurate. Alm literally is rougher around the edges in Gaiden using rougher language and less formal honorifics for people. And yes, this stuff matters a lot in Japanese. They didn't change it for no reason. They intentionally made Alm more formal.

And just for comparison, in both versions of the game, Celica refers to Mycen as

おじいさま (Oji Sama)

A very formal way of addressing him.

 

"Actually bring solid arguments to the table" Oh shut up, of course you'd be quick to try and claim I made 0 solid arguments.

Alm being made to be more consistent and formal doesn't make him angelic at all. What Echoes did with Alm was absolutely a concept in FE2. It's a fact that Gaiden Alm never failed, was handed things with minimal justifications, and had similar contrivances that you give Echoes Alm guff for. Alm as a concept was never going to be for you without massively changing what Gaiden was supposed to be.

It's Alm and Alm alone that has to land the finishing blow on Duma with Celica needing to be saved by Alm in the end. It's Alm that gets the leadership position and it's Alm that had people like Clair loving him. It's once again Alm that had the plot convenient mark on him that recruited Zeke. Echoes Alm wasn't made angelic, he still acts a similar way to his Gaiden counterpart: reasonable, selfless, noble in spirit, and easily emotional. You massively overexaggerate the "rough around the edges" shit too, he's fairly chill just slightly informal from the minimal dialogue that exists.

Alm was always this way. Gaiden Alm was patient and understanding, some of the characters' canon recruitments are based off Alm having patience, hearing others out, and not blindly being an aggressive jerk. It was Awakening that massively exaggerated Alm and the community ran with it.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Seazas

[Acacia Sgt]

Methinks this could be a case of Awakening!Alm what made people think he was like in Gaiden.

At least, I think the impression many people got from Alm stemmed mostly from his Awakening self.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Seazas]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Methinks this could be a case of Awakening!Alm what made people think he was like in Gaiden.

At least, I think the impression many people got from Alm stemmed mostly from his Awakening self.

That's literally it. Gaiden Alm was slightly more informal (and inconsistent on that) but he was a caring dude that did what he did out of a similar passion to Echoes Alm. Both him and Echoes Alm did not hold back on their enemies with Echoes Alm directly saying to Tatiana that no one is his enemy unless they meet on the battlefield.

Awakening spread this idea of Alm that people clung to and dissed Echoes Alm for following Gaiden. All of the divisive stuff involving Alm was long crafted by Kaga. Farm boy turned into prince? Gaiden. Alm being placed in better spots while Celica wasn't treated as equally? Gaiden. Heavily emotional with a clear cut care for his allies and friends? Gaiden. Yada yada.

[Acacia Sgt]

On that subject, I got curious and looked it up, and while じいちゃん is certainly less formal than the other terms used, it's no less a friendly way to call one's grandfather. So it's not rough, just... casual. In fact, at least one place refers to it as "cute". I mean, it's the -chan suffix, after all.

So Alm is unlikely to be using it how Jotari is claiming he is. If he was really trying t refer to him in a rough or rude way, he'd use じじぃ instead, though I think this one is too rude for that, so... maybe おじいさん, if Mycen felt offended to be called old. Still, he's not using that one anyway.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Seazas]

22 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

On that subject, I got curious and looked it up, and while じいちゃん is certainly less formal than the other terms used, it's no less a friendly way to call one's grandfather. So it's not rough, just... casual. In fact, at least one place refers to it as "cute". I mean, it's the -chan suffix, after all.

So Alm is unlikely to be using it how Jotari is claiming he is. If he was really trying t refer to him in a rough or rude way, he'd use じじぃ instead, though I think this one is too rude for that, so... maybe おじいさん, if Mycen felt offended to be called old. Still, he's not using that one anyway.

Just as I thought, Gaiden Alm isn't rough and rude at all. Just slightly more casual, which is kept but also altered for the sake of consistency. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Seazas

[eclipse]

I have a lot of other things I'd rather be doing, so please don't make me come in here and Be A Mod.

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This is what we get for counting Tobin out.

Also, I'd make somebody a dark magic user. How about Atlas the Arcanist?

Agreed. 7 move, doubling basically everything, and magical damage received cut in half. The tricky thing with the loop is that, until you get back to Dread Fighter, you're forgoing the movement and Res buffs. So if you're just doing the main game, without a ton of grinding, you'd probably want to be hasty about getting through it. I used the loop on Saber to help take on Thabes, but I wasn't shy on grinding to prepare for that.

It all comes across as kind of overpriced to me. Especially, as Jotari mentioned, the Overclass ones. That said, I bought the Three Houses DLC (and felt like it was worth it), so I may not best person to be giving financial advice.

Honestly the character grow so ridiculously quickly when you put them back into villager, because they retain the same stats, but actually revert their internal level, that this isn't much of a problem. They become unstoppable killing machines really, really quickly. It isn't the extra levels from the dread fighter loop that are the benefit (since you're unlikely to ever max out every level of a Shadows of Valentia character without serious grinding), it's the speed in which they grow levels. You're fighting end game enemies that grant enough exp to put your consistently used units into the third tier, so getting them back to dread fighter really doesn't take that many maps.

10 hours ago, Maof06 said:

My Birthright team is almost ready.

They're definitely useful in Thabes.

My issue is that they're too useful in Thabes, to the extent that they completely trivialize it.

10 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

The general enthusiasm in the thread is noted, but this isn't exactly a selling point for me. I don't really have fun with maps that make the game hard when I don't yet have an army I've made my own. It's why I don't like excessively hard early games, and in my experience it generally extends to pre-deploy DLC.

That's one good thing I can really say about all three of the Fates games, they maintain a consistent level of difficulty throughout with the early game being the easiest and the endgame being the hardest. Which is super rare for Fire Emblem (though I know you found Birthright endgame to be comparatively easy, but the rest of us attested to a difficulty jump there). Echoes (and Gaiden) have this as well to some extent, but it's mostly from the early game being super easy rather than the end game scaling to a genuine challenge.

9 hours ago, Seazas said:

"Actually bring solid arguments to the table" Oh shut up, of course you'd be quick to try and claim I made 0 solid arguments.

Alm being made to be more consistent and formal doesn't make him angelic at all. What Echoes did with Alm was absolutely a concept in FE2. It's a fact that Gaiden Alm never failed, was handed things with minimal justifications, and had similar contrivances that you give Echoes Alm guff for. Alm as a concept was never going to be for you without massively changing what Gaiden was supposed to be.

It's Alm and Alm alone that has to land the finishing blow on Duma with Celica needing to be saved by Alm in the end. It's Alm that gets the leadership position and it's Alm that had people like Clair loving him. It's once again Alm that had the plot convenient mark on him that recruited Zeke. Echoes Alm wasn't made angelic, he still acts a similar way to his Gaiden counterpart: reasonable, selfless, noble in spirit, and easily emotional. You massively overexaggerate the "rough around the edges" shit too, he's fairly chill just slightly informal from the minimal dialogue that exists.

Alm was always this way. Gaiden Alm was patient and understanding, some of the characters' canon recruitments are based off Alm having patience, hearing others out, and not blindly being an aggressive jerk. It was Awakening that massively exaggerated Alm and the community ran with it.

Those aren't things I've ever complained about Alm doing. Of course he's going to do the same stuff in Gaiden. It's how the character is presented and written, not what he does, that i have an issue with. You're trying to strawman me there and it's not working. Like I said, we can have this discussion if you can bring actual evidence and reasonable arguments with some form of respect in them. Though judging by how you just dismiss anything I do say (unlike Acacia Sgt below who actually challenges the content of it) I think it seems that's too much to ask of you.

8 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

On that subject, I got curious and looked it up, and while じいちゃん is certainly less formal than the other terms used, it's no less a friendly way to call one's grandfather. So it's not rough, just... casual. In fact, at least one place refers to it as "cute". I mean, it's the -chan suffix, after all.

So Alm is unlikely to be using it how Jotari is claiming he is. If he was really trying t refer to him in a rough or rude way, he'd use じじぃ instead, though I think this one is too rude for that, so... maybe おじいさん, if Mycen felt offended to be called old. Still, he's not using that one anyway.

Indeed Alm's turn of phrase to Mycen is still somewhat casual (he lacks the O you would comonly see with Jisan). It's definitely less formal than Celic in both versions who uses highly form honorifics for him. Other lords in the series also use very formal language for their father with Chichiue which is like a samurai term which would probably be best represented as "right honorable father". Contrastly Ike, the "commoner lord" uses "Oyaji" which I think is a super informal term. It is typically rendered as Father in Path of Radiance rather than "Dad" or "Old Man", which is a bit inaccurate. Honestly Ike is probably presented as more formal in the English localization of Path of Radiance than he would be in the Japanese, but I haven't done a deep dive into the Path of Radiance script to see that beyond looking for the word Ike uses to refer to Greil.

So all in all, yes there's a pretty broad spectrum to the way honorifics are used. And I never wanted to suggest Alm was like a thuggish or a brute. But I think there was definitely an intentional change between his characerisation between Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia and the word he uses for Mycen is evidence of that. Because if this shows anything, it's that these terms do matter in Japanese and are carefully selected. They had the Gaiden script on hand and had the word Alm used for Mycen there but consciously decided to alter it to make it more formal. They didn't change him from being a thug into being a prince (eh in terms of language that is, he obviously is an actual prince) and I never intended to imply that. But there was still a definite changing going from informal to more formal.

8 hours ago, eclipse said:

I have a lot of other things I'd rather be doing, so please don't make me come in here and Be A Mod.

Honestly I don't expect any respectful communication to come out of this subject, at least with Seazas. So I'll say now that I won't engage any further on the topic in an argumentitive sense. But when stuff comes up in Alastor's playthrough that I have an opinion on then I will express my opinion. I'm not going to hide my feelings on the game just because someone else doesn't like them. But I won't get into an argument about it.

[Eltosian Kadath]

21 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

...Funny enough, I'm starting to wonder how the hell Lukas got this far unmolested if bandits are literally everywhere like this. But yeah, Lukas tells Alm they can't afford to pick fights with every bandit they come across, but...

There are quite a few moments with the villagers where he advises stealth, so I am guessing he snuck to Ram village.

 

21 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

I've got two competing ideas. First is to make Gray a mercenary, Kliff a cavalier, Faye a cleric, and Tobin a mage. These are the biggest recommendations I've seen for these guys, but I've never done that for Kliff and Tobin and finished the game. The idea would be that I'd play the game “normally” with these classes.

The other idea is... mostly the same, but instead making Kliff and possibly Tobin join Gray as mercenaries so that I can show you guys just how utterly busted the mercenary class line is and what you can do by the end of the game if you commit to it and return to villager from dread fighter. With little to no grinding whatsoever, you can make an utter mockery of the end of the game, and I think it would be pretty damned amusing to show that off.

Lemme know what you guys think!

Shrug. To really break thing with it in the main game you have to grind a lot more than I have ever been willing to, and even in the post game I beat it before any of dread fighters hit the point where they reached the level cap and it felt necessary for their growth.

 

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

This is actually quite a bit of plot they dedicate the "Brigand Boss." I'm quite surprised, and a little dissapointed they didn't decide to actually give him a name.

I kinda like it, as it shows us something about Alm. He jumped into that conflict before even learning the Brigand Boss's name, and had no interest in learning it after...

 

15 hours ago, Samz707 said:

 

Yeah she, doesn't really have a leg to stand on, sure I guess the gods technically somewhat help out at the end but they're arguably kind of the reason Valentia is the way it is. (not to mention Celica, at least in Echoes, loses all of her IQ points and seemingly present development into a more competent person in the process.)

Celica's goals get dismissed far too easily, in part because her task was impossible from the start, but also because it is a poorly understood one. From my understanding she is looking towards the ultimate cause of this conflict, and sees the depletion of resources caused by the loss of Mila's bounty as inevitably driving the two sides to war. Even if Alm wins it all, the increasing scarcity of resources vital to survival will make conflict (whether outright war or ongoing insurgency) inevitable, unless they find some way to deal with that root cause.

 

14 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Nobody said anything about that when I brought it up, so it doesn't sound like I have any takers or any reader interest.

Kinda interested, but when it was going around I was recovering from the second covid shot and even typing was taxing.

[Jotari]

17 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I kinda like it, as it shows us something about Alm. He jumped into that conflict before even learning the Brigand Boss's name, and had no interest in learning it after...

It's a nice interpretation, but I don't think that's where they were going with it. Like I don't think Eirika knew the name of the boss chasing her in Chapter 1 or Byleth ever bothered to ask for Kostos's name yet they still show up on the HUD. I think they simply didn't name the Brigand Boss, because he just isn't named in Gaiden. Even in Shadows of Valentia there's no way Alm would know the name of Hades and the other zero dialogue bosses in the final level (side note I love how all the human enemies have a name in the final level). The generals of the armies he goes up against sure, they could be publicly famous individuals, but considering Celica doesn't even know who Jeddah is before meeting him, I see no reason why any of the party (save maybe Zeke) would be familiar with the high ranking leaders and warriors of the Duma Faithful.

Another boss in this game I felt they could have named is the first Cantor Celica encounters. He uses a generic portrait for the cantor, but he has dialogue and that generic artwork actually made quite an impression on me on my first playthrough, I thought it looked crazy and distinct enough to actually be a specific character. I feel his presence and role in that chapter was distinct enough to justify a name. And even in plot, isn't he like the only Rigelian Celica faces in Chapter 1? Coming to think of it it's a bit strange he is all alone all the way down there looking for Celica. I'm quite sure all the other enemies fought are Zofian pirates or terrors working independently as mindless monsters.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

Since there was mention of the Cipher DLC units earlier, whom I've a strange gameplay fondness for, here are my past gameplay comments on the characters. Which may or may not sway your opinion on the DLC. Listed in chronological order of me posting them from oldest to youngest.:

Spoiler

"So far I'm finding them fairly useful. I sent Yuzu and Shade to Alm just as I started Act 3, and Randal and Emma to Celica once I recruited the Whitewings. None have broken anything, but they've helped out of a bunch.

Emma's stats aren't the greatest (her Def is below the Falcoknight base), but as the Whitewings aren't invincible (at least not for a while- mind you I'm delaying their promotion until 20), so they could always benefit from another winged ally.

Randal is also very strong- with just enough Spd to avoid being doubled by all the non-boss foes, which made him fairly durable. And his high move still finds use even in the land of deserts. I often gave him the Angel Ring to fix his one problem.

Yuzu I underestimated- her base offense is stronger than I originally thought, even if she lacks on the magic side. I've also heard some suggest turning her into a Falcoknight via a Pitchfork- and I can see myself doing that eventually. 

Shade has only been busy with Physic so far, in addition to baiting the Arcanists out in Alm Act 3 Battle 2 alongside Slique. Even so, more heals and heals from afar mean I can take greater risks. She'll be golden for sure once she gets Rescue.

Design-wise, I think Randal's is best. Mature and rugged, but at the same time he exudes a youth via his hair color.

I'm a little disappointed by the maps being recycled for their DLC battles, but I thought the battles themselves were solidly designed (the Emma-Randal one more than Shade & Yuzu's). I will say I absolutely loved the music!

The weapons they come with are also nifty- the Trainee Lance looks like it'll be a forge priority since Solo Triangle Attack should bail out Palla and Emma when they're too slow to double things naturally. The Wayward Lance could stay on Randal, but Catria has been having fun with it so far. The Warrior's Sword isn't as good as Brave Sword, but it's close enough and still very much a keeper."

 

 

"No matter where you send them, they'll be helpful. They're extra 2/4 PCs with decent to excellent stats in a game where each side gets not more than 17 units, another duo is a significant manpower boost.

Shade can bring Celica more Physics, which is particularly good if you train multiple Whitewings, and a Rescue source easier than Atlas. Shade for Alm means Faye has less pressure to go Cleric, since they both get Rescue and Physic, Faye's extremely late Anew is the only thing you lose, although a third Cleric doesn't hurt.

Randal will love Alm's big open maps and the chance at the Ridersbane. Redundancy with Mathilda be damned, they're both good and it won't hurt using them both in the same way using Marcus, Sain and Kent, or Titania and Oscar and Kieran and Astrid and Makalov, won't. Randal on Celica gives you a Paladin other than the extremely late Conrad, and as long as they have Speed, and Randal certainly does, Paladins are good.

Emma I do think contributes more to Celica than Alm, since being a Falcoknight means that extra damage to Terrors. But even with Alm she can fight, at the very least her 14 Res makes her decent for injuring Arcanists. If you like her and are thinking of a little favoritism, I'd go for some Sacred Spring Speed boosts or Pegasus Cheese, mostly because of those annoyingly fast Mogalls Celica fights twice towards the end, and which are in the final battle.

Yuzu is consistent on both sides, if she can reach an enemy, she will double them and do some hurt, if liable to get hurt herself."

 

"And just because I like them, not because I'd ever expect a serious tier list to factor them in due to being paid DLC, I'll propose placements for the Cipher characters. I'll assume an early Act 3 recruitment for all of them, say after getting Catria and Palla on Celica's side and no later than getting to the Forest village on Alm's; though you might be able to clear their maps at the very end of Acts 1 and 2.:

• Alm!Randal I'd put in A Tier, a few spots above Mathilda since he is a few levels higher than her but with appropriately higher bases sans Luck. Growths say a similar story.
• Celica!Randal would be B Tier. Her only Paladin he'd be and a very good one in itself, but the desert and swamp still get to him.
• Alm!Emma is just a worst Clair or even Pegasus Faye perhaps, and few Terrors and bad terrain to benefit from.
• Celica!Emma should be roughly comparable to a insta-promotion Palla, but you can probably only afford to invest heavily in one or the other.
• Yuzu tier pretty low on either route I think. She is fragile, stuck with 4 Move, and has only two weak spells- Fire and Saggitae. She has awesome bases and growths, and another Recover is a slight help, but she has to be healed after fighting up close and her opportunities on either route to do so are limited. Pitchforks make everyone good so they shouldn't be considered at all.
• Shade on the other hand would be just below Silque and Cleric!Faye on Alm's route, and just below Genny on Celica's. Besides having a little less availability, it takes Shade until level 10 to get Rescue, nor does she have Genny's Invoke, and Freeze & Silence are a novelties b/c they have so little range. But she has Physic at base, and when maps are so big and Faye or Genny can be busy with other things, having another ranged healer is not at all redundant."

I'd consider Randal and Shade the big prizes, nice combat and nice utility respectively. Emma is weaker, and Yuzu is the worst because she has low Move, low durability, and few spells.

[Eltosian Kadath]

48 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's a nice interpretation, but I don't think that's where they were going with it. Like I don't think Eirika knew the name of the boss chasing her in Chapter 1 or Byleth ever bothered to ask for Kostos's name yet they still show up on the HUD.

As you point out there are plenty of minor bosses given names, and numerous enemies with class names even in boss roles (especially in Echoes), but only Brigand Boss has this strangely generic, but unique name.

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think they simply didn't name the Brigand Boss, because he just isn't named in Gaiden

I will note that there isn't a Brigand Boss in Gaiden, he is an entirely new character added for Echoes. If all it was is him not having a name, then why isn't he simply named for his class, Brigand, like all the other nameless bosses? It is enough of an oddity to draw attention, and is begging for interpretation.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And even in plot, isn't he like the only Rigelian Celica faces in Chapter 1? Coming to think of it it's a bit strange he is all alone all the way down there looking for Celica. I'm quite sure all the other enemies fought are Zofian pirates or terrors working independently as mindless monsters.

In total there's three battles against the Duma Faithful in Act 2. Two on ships and the one at the very end.

[Seazas]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Honestly the character grow so ridiculously quickly when you put them back into villager, because they retain the same stats, but actually revert their internal level, that this isn't much of a problem. They become unstoppable killing machines really, really quickly. It isn't the extra levels from the dread fighter loop that are the benefit (since you're unlikely to ever max out every level of a Shadows of Valentia character without serious grinding), it's the speed in which they grow levels. You're fighting end game enemies that grant enough exp to put your consistently used units into the third tier, so getting them back to dread fighter really doesn't take that many maps.

My issue is that they're too useful in Thabes, to the extent that they completely trivialize it.

That's one good thing I can really say about all three of the Fates games, they maintain a consistent level of difficulty throughout with the early game being the easiest and the endgame being the hardest. Which is super rare for Fire Emblem (though I know you found Birthright endgame to be comparatively easy, but the rest of us attested to a difficulty jump there). Echoes (and Gaiden) have this as well to some extent, but it's mostly from the early game being super easy rather than the end game scaling to a genuine challenge.

Those aren't things I've ever complained about Alm doing. Of course he's going to do the same stuff in Gaiden. It's how the character is presented and written, not what he does, that i have an issue with. You're trying to strawman me there and it's not working. Like I said, we can have this discussion if you can bring actual evidence and reasonable arguments with some form of respect in them. Though judging by how you just dismiss anything I do say (unlike Acacia Sgt below who actually challenges the content of it) I think it seems that's too much to ask of you.

Indeed Alm's turn of phrase to Mycen is still somewhat casual (he lacks the O you would comonly see with Jisan). It's definitely less formal than Celic in both versions who uses highly form honorifics for him. Other lords in the series also use very formal language for their father with Chichiue which is like a samurai term which would probably be best represented as "right honorable father". Contrastly Ike, the "commoner lord" uses "Oyaji" which I think is a super informal term. It is typically rendered as Father in Path of Radiance rather than "Dad" or "Old Man", which is a bit inaccurate. Honestly Ike is probably presented as more formal in the English localization of Path of Radiance than he would be in the Japanese, but I haven't done a deep dive into the Path of Radiance script to see that beyond looking for the word Ike uses to refer to Greil.

So all in all, yes there's a pretty broad spectrum to the way honorifics are used. And I never wanted to suggest Alm was like a thuggish or a brute. But I think there was definitely an intentional change between his characerisation between Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia and the word he uses for Mycen is evidence of that. Because if this shows anything, it's that these terms do matter in Japanese and are carefully selected. They had the Gaiden script on hand and had the word Alm used for Mycen there but consciously decided to alter it to make it more formal. They didn't change him from being a thug into being a prince (eh in terms of language that is, he obviously is an actual prince) and I never intended to imply that. But there was still a definite changing going from informal to more formal.

Honestly I don't expect any respectful communication to come out of this subject, at least with Seazas. So I'll say now that I won't engage any further on the topic in an argumentitive sense. But when stuff comes up in Alastor's playthrough that I have an opinion on then I will express my opinion. I'm not going to hide my feelings on the game just because someone else doesn't like them. But I won't get into an argument about it.

What you're complaining about is just completely wrong in this case. The fact that you said that I didn't "challenge your claims" is absurd, you're complaining about Alm being made "angelic" when the overlap between their characters were already there in not just story... but personality as I already pointed out. And yet you conveniently ignored that. Alm in Gaiden has shown to be selfless, ridiculously kind, patient, understanding (traits shown in with the side characters. Who get recruited by Alm going out of his way, including patiently listening to others such as Rigelians like Zeke), and the one displayed as rational and reasonable (the end of Gaiden's chapter 2 where Alm gets slandered by Celica with the man trying to calm her down. Celica storms off, Alm just awkwardly continued on his merry way). The fact that you had to dig in Gaiden and use one singular example of the Japanese script: Alm being slightly informal toward Mycen... which can be interpreted as several things shows the inherent problem with your argument. 

Both me and Acacia have already discussed the idea that Awakening altered perceptions on Gaiden than what actually happened in Gaiden. You may just be one of those people if you're still believing that Gaiden Alm and Echoes Alm have a drastic difference in their characters; it's absurdity and a headcanon to argue that Echoes Alm is angelic and Gaiden Alm is not. As I said prior, the entire concept of Alm just may not be for you. Because his character was always this way.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Seazas

[Acacia Sgt]

Eh, no. I wasn't singling Jotari out in that post, and I did stated a "could" in there. I don't even know if Jotari first played Gaiden before Awakening or after, or if even before or after SoV, so don't put an alternate interpretation to my post, please.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Seazas]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Eh, no. I wasn't singling Jotari out in that post, and I did stated a "could" in there. I don't even know if Jotari first played Gaiden before Awakening, so don't put an alternate interpretation to my post, please.

I didn't know what you were aiming for other than supporting a potential point that Awakening furthered an idea of Alm that never existed. Especially when you had the timing of another disagreement between me and Jotari.

I edited the post, is that better?

Edited May 26, 2021 by Seazas

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

The generals of the armies he goes up against sure, they could be publicly famous individuals, but considering Celica doesn't even know who Jeddah is before meeting him, I see no reason why any of the party (save maybe Zeke) would be familiar with the high ranking leaders and warriors of the Duma Faithful.

Missed this edit, but Tatiana as a Duma Cleric would be a reasonable explanation for knowing the names of Duma faithful important enough to be in the presence of their god.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

6 minutes ago, Seazas said:

I didn't know what you were aiming for other than supporting a potential point that Awakening furthered an idea of Alm that never existed. Especially when you had the timing of another disagreement between me and Jotari.

I edited the post, is that better?

Okay, sorry, I perhaps overreacted a bit. I just don't like it when those kind of situations arise. Anyway...

Yes, I mostly only meant what I wrote and nothing more. At the most it could be interpreted as a question to Jotari if the situation applied to him, but it wasn't a direct accusation or anything of the sort.

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Okay, sorry, I perhaps overreacted a bit. I just don't like it when those kind of situations arise. Anyway...

Yes, I mostly only meant what I wrote and nothing more. At the most it could be interpreted as a question to Jotari if the situation applied to him, but it wasn't a direct accusation or anything of the sort.

Alright then, hopefully the edit is better for you. Couldn't help but assume a little as the situation was gradually turning to Jotari making opinionated claims with some of the discussion getting geared toward that.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Another boss in this game I felt they could have named is the first Cantor Celica encounters. He uses a generic portrait for the cantor, but he has dialogue and that generic artwork actually made quite an impression on me on my first playthrough, I thought it looked crazy and distinct enough to actually be a specific character. I feel his presence and role in that chapter was distinct enough to justify a name. And even in plot, isn't he like the only Rigelian Celica faces in Chapter 1? Coming to think of it it's a bit strange he is all alone all the way down there looking for Celica. I'm quite sure all the other enemies fought are Zofian pirates or terrors working independently as mindless monsters.

There's one Act 2 map that's a ship full of Arcanists. Whom, I assume, belong to the Duma Faithful (and are, therefore, Rigelian).

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's a nice interpretation, but I don't think that's where they were going with it. Like I don't think Eirika knew the name of the boss chasing her in Chapter 1 or Byleth ever bothered to ask for Kostos's name yet they still show up on the HUD. I think they simply didn't name the Brigand Boss, because he just isn't named in Gaiden. Even in Shadows of Valentia there's no way Alm would know the name of Hades and the other zero dialogue bosses in the final level (side note I love how all the human enemies have a name in the final level). The generals of the armies he goes up against sure, they could be publicly famous individuals, but considering Celica doesn't even know who Jeddah is before meeting him, I see no reason why any of the party (save maybe Zeke) would be familiar with the high ranking leaders and warriors of the Duma Faithful.

Clearly, one-off bosses like O'Brien, Seazas, Dejanira, Henning, Lamia, Volzhin, Wire, and Ruger were all considerate enough to wear their name tags into battle.

18 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Missed this edit, but Tatiana as a Duma Cleric would be a reasonable explanation for knowing the names of Duma faithful important enough to be in the presence of their god.

Granted, there's no guarantee you'll be bringing Tatiana in with you, for the final battle.

...Incidentally, there also isn't a guarantee that you'll bring Clive and Clair along. But that doesn't stop them from reacting to Fernand's death.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

As you point out there are plenty of minor bosses given names, and numerous enemies with class names even in boss roles (especially in Echoes), but only Brigand Boss has this strangely generic, but unique name.

I will note that there isn't a Brigand Boss in Gaiden, he is an entirely new character added for Echoes. If all it was is him not having a name, then why isn't he simply named for his class, Brigand, like all the other nameless bosses? It is enough of an oddity to draw attention, and is begging for interpretation.

 

Well there is the "Captain" from the Shadow Dragon prologue.

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Captain_(Shadow_Dragon)

Who I could have sword was of the soldier class and was named the Lieutenant. The Mandela Effect is hitting me hard right now 0.o

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

In total there's three battles against the Duma Faithful in Act 2. Two on ships and the one at the very end.

Yeah, I did actually look up the chapters afterwards to fact check myself and saw there's another boat full of archanists. So he's not down in south Zofia completely alone, but I think the Cantor still brings enough to the table both in gameplay, narrative and presence to warrant a proper name (I'm guessing the "one at the very end" is the map where Conrad shows up to save Celica that wasn't in Gaiden? I certainly remembered that, but with its limited deployment, reused map, just generally easiness and sort of transtionary period between part 1 and 2, I guess I kind of categorized it away in my brain as a cutscene).

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Missed this edit, but Tatiana as a Duma Cleric would be a reasonable explanation for knowing the names of Duma faithful important enough to be in the presence of their god.

Is Tatiana a member of the Duma Faithful? She's certainly a cleric, and it's probably not of Mila (then again there are a tonne of Mila statues hanging around Rigel for a nation she hasn't been influencing for centuries), but I can't recall her ever being noted as being aligned with the Duma Faithful. She certainly doesn't dress in their aesthetic (then again Halcyon doesn't either). Now that I think about it, whether she is noted as being part of them or not somewhere, it's a bit of a missed opportunity that isn't an aspect of her character. Because as she is, Tatiana is kind of flat as a character. She has a bit of charm in a ditzy sort of way, but there isn't all that much to her. She's just, Zeke's girlfriend. Letting her give a perspective on the non psychotically evil side of the Duma faithful like Halcyon would, I think, be a much appreciated dimension to her character. It doesn't really help that she only has a single support with Zeke.

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

What you're complaining about is just completely wrong in this case. The fact that you said that I didn't "challenge your claims" is absurd, you're complaining about Alm being made "angelic" when the overlap between their characters were already there in not just story... but personality as I already pointed out. And yet you conveniently ignored that. Alm in Gaiden has shown to be selfless, ridiculously kind, patient, understanding (traits shown in with the side characters. Who get recruited by Alm going out of his way, including patiently listening to others such as Rigelians like Zeke), and the one displayed as rational and reasonable (the end of Gaiden's chapter 2 where Alm gets slandered by Celica with the man trying to calm her down. Celica storms off, Alm just awkwardly continued on his merry way). The fact that you had to dig in Gaiden and use one singular example of the Japanese script: Alm being slightly informal toward Mycen... which can be interpreted as several things shows the inherent problem with your argument. 

Both me and Acacia have already discussed the idea that Awakening altered perceptions on Gaiden than what actually happened in Gaiden. You may just be one of those people if you're still believing that Gaiden Alm and Echoes Alm have a drastic difference in their characters; it's absurdity and a headcanon to argue that Echoes Alm is angelic and Gaiden Alm is not. As I said prior, the entire concept of Alm just may not be for you. Because his character was always this way.

Straight up I'm not even going to bother reading what you have to say per what I say here.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Honestly I don't expect any respectful communication to come out of this subject, at least with Seazas. So I'll say now that I won't engage any further on the topic in an argumentitive sense. But when stuff comes up in Alastor's playthrough that I have an opinion on then I will express my opinion. I'm not going to hide my feelings on the game just because someone else doesn't like them. But I won't get into an argument about it.

Maybe you have a worthwhile riposte, probably you don't, but I honestly don't care until we reach a point in our relationship when we can actually talk to each other.

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Okay, sorry, I perhaps overreacted a bit. I just don't like it when those kind of situations arise. Anyway...

Yes, I mostly only meant what I wrote and nothing more. At the most it could be interpreted as a question to Jotari if the situation applied to him, but it wasn't a direct accusation or anything of the sort.

For what it's worth I didn't think you were singling me out. I read your post as you meaning what you wrote and nothing more, that's why I replied to it with further analysis of the two terms and what terms other lords in the series use to refer to their fathers.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Is Tatiana a member of the Duma Faithful? She's certainly a cleric, and it's probably not of Mila (then again there are a tonne of Mila statues hanging around Rigel for a nation she hasn't been influencing for centuries), but I can't recall her ever being noted as being aligned with the Duma Faithful. She certainly doesn't dress in their aesthetic (then again Halcyon doesn't either). Now that I think about it, whether she is noted as being part of them or not somewhere, it's a bit of a missed opportunity that isn't an aspect of her character. Because as she is, Tatiana is kind of flat as a character. She has a bit of charm in a ditzy sort of way, but there isn't all that much to her. She's just, Zeke's girlfriend. Letting her give a perspective on the non psychotically evil side of the Duma faithful like Halcyon would, I think, be a much appreciated dimension to her character. It doesn't really help that she only has a single support with Zeke.

Tatiana is a member of the Duma Faithful. You got to remember that Jedah hijacked the religion, ousting Halcyon and taking over. Any clerics or saints were likely long turned into Witches by the time we see them. If Tatiana remains sound was likely due to Nuibaba getting to her first for her own agenda, but was forced to keep her alive by Jerome in order to keep Zeke on a leash.

And I agree. That was certainly a missed opportunity. Just the top of my head she could've had support convos with Silque, whose mother was also a Duma Faithful. Or just about comparing their own dogmas and stuff like that, being clerics of both religions currently working together. But yeah, so much for that.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Tatiana is a member of the Duma Faithful. You got to remember that Jedah hijacked the religion, ousting Halcyon and taking over. Any clerics or saints were likely long turned into Witches by the time we see them. If Tatiana remains sound was likely due to Nuibaba getting to her first for her own agenda, but was forced to keep her alive by Jerome in order to keep Zeke on a leash.

And I agree. That was certainly a missed opportunity. Just the top of my head she could've had support convos with Silque, whose mother was also a Duma Faithful. Or just about comparing their own dogmas and stuff like that, being clerics of both religions currently working together. But yeah, so much for that.

Do you have any reference on hand that actually identifiers her though? Like I know it logically makes sense as she's from Rigel and its the leading religion of Rigel, but I'd still like to see some actual reference to her. I've taken a quick glance at her recruitment, support and base convo and there's no solid reference. In fact she says Gods plural in her base convo which I find a little strange. She also mentions being raised by clerics in an orphanage, but like her, it's just nondescript clerics. I'm with you that's it's a pretty rational assumption she's with the Duma Faithful, but considering her lack of reference to it, even in her final battle quote she she's battling against the god she's dedicated her life to, we can't really discount the possibility of some small sect of polytheistic worshipers being where she hails from.

EDIT: I've just checked her entry in the Valentia Accordion where she's described as "A cleric in service to the Rigelian Empire". Also I'll note that while it'd be odd for her to battle against the god she's dedicated her life to without specific comment, it wouldn't exactly be unprecedented in the series, with Radiant Dawn's Laura expressing no opinion at all about fighting Ashera, and even continues to use her death quote seemingly referencing Ashera after it's already been decided the whole army is going to go fight her.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Do you have any reference on hand that actually identifiers her though? Like I know it logically makes sense as she's from Rigel and its the leading religion of Rigel, but I'd still like to see some actual reference to her. I've taken a quick glance at her recruitment, support and base convo and there's no solid reference. In fact she says Gods plural in her base convo which I find a little strange. She also mentions being raised by clerics in an orphanage, but like her, it's just nondescript clerics. I'm with you that's it's a pretty rational assumption she's with the Duma Faithful, but considering her lack of reference to it, even in her final battle quote she she's battling against the god she's dedicated her life to, we can't really discount the possibility of some small sect of polytheistic worshipers being where she hails from.

Best I could find is the Valentian Accordion, which states Tatiana "is in the service of the Rigelian Empire". Honestly, I just can't find the logic of Tatiana being that and a Mila Faithful, considering how things are in the continent. Only way I could see is that she believes in finding harmony between both doctrines, or also follows some of Mila's on the side, hence why she ends up deferring to Mila in stuff like her level up quotes.

I mean, people trying to follow both doctrines, even if one has to be mostly in secret, wouldn't be that out there. And Tatiana could be one of them.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Best I could find is the Valentian Accordion, which states Tatiana "is in the service of the Rigelian Empire".

Ah, I see you missed my edit where I checked the same, and also noted Laura's similar position in Radiant Dawn, which I'd intended to reference before posting.

26 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Honestly, I just can't find the logic of Tatiana being that and a Mila Faithful, considering how things are in the continent.

Well it's not the only possibility, it is possible there are other smaller religions. Though her "service" to the empire and with how fundamentalist the Duma Faithful makes it seem unlikely they would acknowledge other faiths, still though, possible.

26 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Only way I could see is that she believes in finding harmony between both doctrines, or also follows some of Mila's on the side, hence why she ends up deferring to Mila in stuff like her level up quotes.

Wait does she reference Mila in her level ups? Honestly the idea of their maybe being Mila faithful in Rigel if that's the case isn't the most farfetched thing. Like I said, there are a whole bunch of Mila statues being maintained around the continent. Only the one right inside the Duma Temple itself is in disrepair. Side note, it actually would have been quite cool and given him more presence if the Mila statues swapped to Duma statues once you entered Rigel. Sure it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense with the whole receiving blessings for promotion, but that doesn't make a tonne of sense to begin with considering Mila's dead (and it could be handwaved the first time you visit one with the characters saying they're praying to Mila at a Duma statue since they're siblings or something, so they're still appealing to Mila, just in a place of Duma worship).

26 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, people trying to follow both doctrines, even if one has to be mostly in secret, wouldn't be that out there. And Tatiana could be one of them.

Well the faiths were reunited at the end of the game, so a grass roots movement for that isn't insane. Still though, given her general character I feel the opposite is more likely for Tatiana. Compared to the likes of SIlque, she honestly doesn't seem that devout. In all her quotes the only actual reference to religion I could find is her calling herself a sinful servant in her final base conversation for hoping Zeke doesn't get his memories back. And coupled with her stated reason for being a Cleric, due to the kindness of the Clerics in her orphanage, I get the feeling she's more of a "Career Priest". As in it for the lifestyle rather than the actual religious adherence. I mean maybe I'm looking into that too much since there's not a whole lot to analyze with her, but it is an interesting enough facet for a character that's she also could have manifested

(okay, headcanon time, she's such laissez faire cleric she doesn't even know how many gods she's meant to be worshiping and gets confused because she knows Mila exists so therefore assumes she's in service to both of them, it would be in character with the scatterbrained part of her personality).