Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

[Samz707]

9 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Okay then tell me which one of those situations where he winds up in a worse position than he did before. For a character flaw to actually be meaningful it has to hinder him in some way which never happens to Alm until maybe until the very end and by that point it’s a little and the payoff just doesn’t land. On the other hand Celica is constantly. She’s constantly making stupid decisions and winding up in terrible situations as a result. It’s basic cause and effect. 

Is Celica constantly making completely stupid decisions? She has a few but aside from the end I wouldn't say she's dumber than Alm aside from the Jedah Choice.

Alm fights some Bandits at the Shrine when Lukas wants to sneak by them = Celica Fights some Necrodragons on the Island despite Kamui wanting to avoid them.

You have the Argument, which while Celica is a bit unreasonable, I think Alm doesn't exactly disprove her when she acts worried about it if I remember. (so they're both kinda at fault.)

Both can screw up and get someone killed at least once and get called out on it. (Mathilda and the Valbar crew)

For the most part, if there's a screw up on Celica's path, Alm screws up too as far as I can remember. 

Alm gets saved from death by Myson at the start/Conrad saves Celica around the middle.

It's really only the big one at the end that's offensive.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Samz707

[Ottservia]

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say it likely is that his blunders are mostly optional. He does get chewed out if he fails to save Mathilda and Delthea, but since it's not something that has to happen, then he gets to avoid it.

That’s mostly due to player error though and neither lose condition really discourages the playstyle of just rushing in there recklessly. In fact it encourages it. The only one I can think of that really fits in with what Alm’s flaws are supposed to be is Delthea because you can accidentally kill her if you’re not careful. With Mathilda it’s more like you couldn’t save her in time. 

 

6 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Is Celica constantly making completely stupid decisions? She has a few but aside from the end I wouldn't say she's dumber than Alm aside from the Jedah Choice.

Alm fights some Bandits at the Shrine when Lukas wants to sneak by them = Celica Fights some Necrodragons on the Island despite Kamui wanting to avoid them.

You have the Argument, which while Celica is a bit unreasonable, I think Alm doesn't exactly disprove her when she acts worried about it if I remember. (so they're both kinda at fault.)

Both can screw up and get someone killed at least once and get called out on it. (Mathilda and the Valbar crew)

For the most part, if there's a screw up on Celica's path, Alm screws up too as far as I can remember. 

Alm gets saved from death by Myson at the start/Conrad saves Celica around the middle.

It's really only the big one at the end that's offensive.

Yeah but that instance does not lead to Alm losing anything or putting him in a position where he would need to invoke Celica’s ideals to get out of the situation because that’s kind of the point of their relationship. They complete and compliment one another. But that never happens. Every time Alm is put in a bad situation it’s never his fault. Yeah sure he would’ve been better off avoiding the bandits but it’s not like fighting them anyway leads to him being in any worse of a situation because he’s able to beat them down and come out relatively unscathed. It’s decent setup for what his flaw is supposed to be but there’s no payoff to it. Because there’s no situation where something similar happens but it ends poorly. Again, for a character flaw to be meaningful it has to actually hinder him in some way and it never truly does. Whenever Celica makes a mistake it’s almost always due to her not believing in her strength or the strength of those she cares about and we all know how well that goes for her. At every step of the way Celica’s flaws hinder her and prevent her from reaching her goals. At worst, Alm’s flaws only get him into a few minor skirmishes that he could’ve avoided.

[Acacia Sgt]

9 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s mostly due to player error though and neither lose condition really discourages the playstyle of just rushing in there recklessly. In fact it encourages it. The only one I can think of that really fits in with what Alm’s flaws are supposed to be is Delthea because you can accidentally kill her if you’re not careful. With Mathilda it’s more like you couldn’t save her in time. 

It doesn't get brought up, but you could make the argument that Alm just recklessly charging head on for a frontal assault on the fortress is what can lead to Mathilda's death. Sure, it's stated Desaix was gonna do it any day now, but it's when he hears that the Deliverance is marching on his front door that prompts him to do it now. So sure, you could not save her in time, but if you weren't making the assault in the first place, you wouldn't have to worry on making it in time anyway. But like I said, there's no mention of the Deliverance planning a sneak, a diversion, anything that isn't just charging head on. But the way we're forced to play the map is a straight frontal assault.

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It doesn't get brought up, but you could make the argument that Alm just recklessly charging head on for a frontal assault on the fortress is what can lead to Mathilda's death. Sure, it's stated Desaix was gonna do it any day now, but it's when he hears that the Deliverance is marching on his front door that prompts him to do it now. So sure, you could not save her in time, but if you weren't making the assault in the first place, you wouldn't have to worry on making it in time anyway. But like I said, there's no mention of the Deliverance planning a sneak, a diversion, anything that isn't just charging head on. But the way we're forced to play the map is a straight frontal assault.

It’s one of those situations where gameplay and story should’ve been integrated better or just generally more nuance should’ve added to it. If the only way to succeed in saving Mathilda had more to do with trying to proceed carefully then maybe it could’ve worked a little better like if you’re too fast then a bunch of enemy reinforcements would show up out of no where making the map a lot harder or something like that I’m just kind of spit balling. Or maybe you could add a mechanic where it lets you take out a bunch of enemies at once but it would also harm Mathilda. Though that would probably only work in a game like fates where dragon veins are a thing.

[Samz707]

4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

It’s one of those situations where gameplay and story should’ve been integrated better or just generally more nuance should’ve added to it. If the only way to succeed in saving Mathilda had more to do with trying to proceed carefully then maybe it could’ve worked a little better like if you’re too fast then a bunch of enemy reinforcements would show up out of no where making the map a lot harder or something like that I’m just kind of spit balling. Or maybe you could add a mechanic where it lets you take out a bunch of enemies at once but it would also harm Mathilda. Though that would probably only work in a game like fates where dragon veins are a thing.

That's kinda how it works?

There's a Cantor constantly spawning Infinite Terrors into Mathilda's cell, so you have to hurry up since she'll eventually succumb to them, not to mention Archers that I can't remember if they target at her.

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

That's kinda how it works?

There's a Cantor constantly spawning Infinite Terrors into Mathilda's cell, so you have to hurry up since she'll eventually succumb to them, not to mention Archers that I can't remember if they target at her.

Yeah but that encourages you to be fast. I was thinking of ways to discourage just barging in there guns blazing.

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

A lot of my issues with that plot line I lay at the feet of Jedah rather than Celica. It would have worked considerably better if they'd given Jedah an ounce of charisma or actually made him genuine in all that he's saying to her. I'm not even certain Jedah knew what he was doing by offering her's Duma's soul. He wavers back and forth several times with his motivation being to help cure Duma's madness; and because stfu Duma wants chaos and Duma gets what Duma wants.

I missed this edit earlier, but I agree with you here, Jedah being so inconsistent with what his deal is hurts it far more for me than Celica's actions do.

 

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

I would say it's not the same extent as Celica. (Though IMO it's more Celica shouldn't have been as dumb rather than Alm being too perfect.)

I feel like instead of Celica being dumb for the sake of plot, there should have been a "Canas-like" situation for her second act, where she can mess up and get someone killed and have people hate for it like Alm does. (Granted this would seemingly require a big deviation from Gaiden.)

People like to say she is acting dumb, but it does seem in character with what I see as her ultimate flaw. Celica doesn't value her life above the well being of others. She repeatedly puts her life in more danger than it needs to make people's lives better, be that taking on pirates and necrodragons and bandit kings she doesn't need to. She values her life so little that when asked by the extremely sketchy Jedah, that everyone has warned her against, to give up her soul for the small chance that he can return Mila's blessing (or saving Rigelians from the fate of losing Duma's blessing, or whatever his deal is at the time), her answer is an instant yes.

 

54 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

While I agree that this is a flaw of his, does the game ever punish him for this? Like, maybe the death of Rudolf can be considered a consequence of this rashness. But this, too, was something that Rudolf had planned for - borne of the king's machinations, rather than the peasant-prince's proclivities. It's depicted as a necessary tragedy.

I don't think it is a necessary tragedy anymore than Celica giving her soul is, both are avoidable if not for their flaws. It may have been Rudolf's plan, but if Alm knew Rudolf was his father would it have ended that way? Rudolf literally will not Attack/counter attack Alm, if Alm did the same how would it end?

 

42 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Okay then tell me which one of those situations where he winds up in a worse position than he did before.

The most obvious is he commits one of the greatest tragedies possible, the unintended murder of a family member. If you want others he lets himself be fooled by Nuibaba into a trap (and let's be honest, that map is a trap), or he blunders past, and kills Zeke without discovering he is being blackmailed, earning the ire of Rigelians that would otherwise be helpful. His only plan for freeing Delthea is to directly attack Tatarrah instead of trying any subterfuge or magical plan to free her more safely (and can kill her in the attempt). His only plan for safely freeing Mathilda is charge and hope Duesaix doesn't kill her in a timely fashion (and yes she can die, and get some serious scolding from Clive for it).

 

43 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

For a character flaw to actually be meaningful it has to hinder him in some way which never happens to Alm until maybe until the very end and by that point it’s a little and the payoff just doesn’t land. On the other hand Celica is constantly. She’s constantly making stupid decisions and winding up in terrible situations as a result. It’s basic cause and effect. 

Is it happening constantly to Celica? Barring her giving up her soul near the very end (which is at best comparable to Alms loss of Rudolf), I can't think of any time she is hindered any more than Alm is for her flaw. Do you have some examples you can share?

 

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The most obvious is he commits one of the greatest tragedies possible, the unintended murder of a family member. If you want others he lets himself be fooled by Nuibaba into a trap (and let's be honest, that map is a trap), or he blunders past, and kills Zeke without discovering he is being blackmailed, earning the ire of Rigelians that would otherwise be helpful. His only plan for freeing Delthea is to directly attack Tatarrah instead of trying any subterfuge or magical plan to free her more safely (and can kill her in the attempt). His only plan for safely freeing Mathilda is charge and hope Duesaix doesn't kill her in a timely fashion (and yes she can die, and get some serious scolding from Clive for it).

The Nuibaba detour ends him in a better place than he did originally. It’s so that he doesn’t have to fight Zeke and gains him as an ally so that doesn’t really count. Him not going on the detour actually hinders him more which is fair but with the way it’s set up the message is pretty muddled. As for the Mathilda stuff well the game gives you no other way to approach it and the map itself encourages you to charge forward and be quick about lest Mathilda dies. Your success is not dependent on if you avoid charging quickly to just murdered whatever is in your path. In fact that’s the strategy that’s encouraged on that map. Delthea is a little better because it’s a matter of she can attack you but you can’t attack her. It encourages a way to finish the map without killing a supposed enemy.  And even then the way the whole conflict is framed Isn’t even about the flaws in Alm’s character. It’s more focused on showing the flaws in Clive’s ideals rather than Alm’s based on the framing and set up of the conflict. And then there’s the issue of those fail conditions being optional in the first place. The fact that they are is a problem in it of itself because if you don’t fail then Alm never is meaningfully challenged on his flaws and later story beats are not changed in either case. 

19 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Is it happening constantly to Celica? Barring her giving up her soul near the very end (which is at best comparable to Alms loss of Rudolf), I can't think of any time she is hindered any more than Alm is for her flaw. Do you have some examples you can share?

you have the moment where the rock slide almost kills her at the beginning of act 3 and the moment when she reaches Mila’s temple. She thinks going to Mila’s temple to find her will solve everything only to learn that Mila is gone and she is devastated by it which leads to a moment of growth where she promotes. Or hell the entirety of her argument with Alm is another showcase of flaw in her inability to believe in other people’s strength. And she is framed as in the wrong by the end of that argument.

[Eltosian Kadath]

47 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

 And then there’s the issue of those fail conditions being optional in the first place. The fact that they are is a problem in it of itself because if you don’t fail then Alm never is meaningfully challenged on his flaws and later story beats are not changed in either case. 

Even if their end result is optional, avoiding these options adds a hardship to the player, forcing them to play in ways that make things harder on them. It is either Alm or the player that feels the full weight of his flaw, and I don't think the choice of who takes that burden lessens its impact.

 

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

you have the moment where the rock slide almost kills her at the beginning of act 3

How linked this is to her flaw, and how much she is impacted by this is as muddy as the Nuibaba choice.

 

4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

and the moment when she reaches Mila’s temple. She thinks going to Mila’s temple to find her will solve everything only to learn that Mila is gone and she is devastated by it which leads to a moment of growth where she promotes.

Sounds like when Alm has conquered Rigel, killing his own father, only to discover this conquest hasn't solved everything, and must now explore the mysteries of Duma's tower, and confront his own feeling within. Or possibly when he has conquered his way to the Sluice gate, only to discover when he gets there that he has to activate the one to the south to avoid disaster, with no means for him and his army to activate it in time.

 

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Or hell the entirety of her argument with Alm is another showcase of flaw in her inability to believe in other people’s strength. And she is framed as in the wrong by the end of that argument.

Alm early on in that argument by outright saying he doesn't care about Rudolf's plans and intentions. He hurt Celica through his ignorance of who she is, and if it were his inclination he could have put the pieces together here and prevented that. To emphasize his failure here, after Celica leaves he even laments not asking a question that would have revealed who she was, and prevented him from hurting Cleica with his words. It is not as clear cut who is in the wrong for that argument.

 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Samz707 said:

That would admittingly help but the fact that IMO Sage's Hamlet practically has most of it's dialogue (not counting the Alm stuff) be people telling Celica (including actual Duma Faithful worshippers) how bad he is makes it really hard to see it as a believable trap as she's flat-out told she's evil by good natured people who worship Duma and kept her brother safe.

Sage's Hamlet would also need massively re-written to make Celica not seem like she's lost all her brain cells for the sake of the plot. 

 

Celica should have been able to recruit the Blacksmith as a Villager, now Best Girl is playable.

 

Nah, clearly Alm and Celica are actually wearing them as hats, just like in Heroes. (Joking aside I'm honestly surprised the Turnwheel isn't a Accessory in that game.)

 

I would say it's not the same extent as Celica. (Though IMO it's more Celica shouldn't have been as dumb rather than Alm being too perfect.)

I feel like instead of Celica being dumb for the sake of plot, there should have been a "Canas-like" situation for her second act, where she can mess up and get someone killed and have people hate for it like Alm does. (Granted this would seemingly require a big deviation from Gaiden.)

Even with the comments of the Sage Hamlet in tact, I think Jedah could have worked with a better design and some more consistency. Like I never wanted to suggest he would actually be seen as a good person or an ally by the plot. We still need that swamp map to snag his dragon shield so him coming to blows with Celica and the tower fights also are best maintained (otherwise the climax for her arc is the forest, yawn). But if he came across as less like a Halloween outfit and actually had more effort put in to make his argument seem rationale then it would work a lot better. And he does have some solid arguments in his first meeting with Celica, and Celica's reaction to him is appropriately untrustworthy. It's just that from there she's provided more and more reasons not to trust Jedah and seems proportionally more inclined to trust him.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Celica also saves Alm earlier in Act IV, when Berkut throws hands at him. Admittedly, that one was indirect, since it was a protective magic from the pendant Celica gave him.

As for this nightmare, I don't believe its provenance was ever established. Perhaps it was concocted by Jedah, as a way to manipulate Celica from the very beginning? Make her fearful of Alm's demise, and willing to do anything to prevent it. That's just a shot in the dark, though.

To Shadows of Valentia's credit at least, they didn't come up with this premonition. Well they came up with the content of it, but the notion that Alm is in danger is what prompted Celica to leave Norvis is from Gaiden. We don't see it at the start of the game, but she mentions it in act 5, right after the "Crush these bastards" line. If I were handling the remake then I think I'd make Rudolf's final moments an animated cutscene and then show clips of a despairing Alm to Celica to convey the sense of dread.

Either that or we could play up the dracozombie spam in the volcano, as that is a moment where Celica did save Alm in Gaiden originally. In Shadows of Valentia it isn't much part of her decision to give herself to Jeddah at all. Which is a bit of a shame, though it wouldn't really work with the version of Jeddah they have who ultimately turns out to be untrustworthy. Refer back to my comments about how a more genuine Jeddah would have been better.

Quote

Presumably, they wanted to hold themselves to one new playable character on either side.

A silly standard to hold to if that is the case, as Celica's route has one less playable character than Alm's. Both sides have 17, but the Sonia/Deen choice means Celica choice means Celica can only ever have 16 (assuming Kliff and Faye are recruited to Alm's and the DLC characters are evenly distributed). So they have plenty of reason to create another character for Celica in addition to Conrad. Either that or make Sonia and Deen both playable (which would have allowed them to actually work Sonia into the plot). Though one of those characters for Alm is Mycen who's only available for Chapter 5, course that isn't really all that much longer than the amount of time Celica has access to Conrad.

Alm's route also has the new original character of Berkut as an enemy while all Celcia's enemies are from Gaiden, save random nameless mooks his accost her in Conrad's first appearance. There's also some suggestion that Berkut was originally intended to be playable which would suggest they never placed such limitations on themselves.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

28 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Sounds like when Alm has conquered Rigel, killing his own father, only to discover this conquest hasn't solved everything, and must now explore the mysteries of Duma's tower, and confront his own feeling within. Or possibly when he has conquered his way to the Sluice gate, only to discover when he gets there that he has to activate the one to the south to avoid disaster, with no means for him and his army to activate it in time.

 

I’d argue the whole Jedah thing with her is a more appropriate parallel because they happen around the same time and are both given the same amount of dramatic weight. A parallel to the Mila moment would be the delthea which isn’t a showcase of Alm’s flaws but rather Clive’s. My point being is that Celica is proven wrong by the narrative more often than not.

 

28 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Alm early on in that argument by outright saying he doesn't care about Rudolf's plans and intentions. He hurt Celica through his ignorance of who she is, and if it were his inclination he could have put the pieces together here and prevented that. To emphasize his failure here, after Celica leaves he even laments not asking a question that would have revealed who she was, and prevented him from hurting Cleica with his words. It is not as clear cut who is in the wrong for that argument.

No that’s not what happens in that argument at all. Alm is definitely framed as the more reasonable one by the end of it. Because he calmly says that he would be willing to drop everything and go back to ram village if the princess decided to reveal herself only for her to lash out at him and accuse him of wanting to he king when that’s clearly not his intention. The way the argument flows and ends paints Celica as the unreasonable one. The story tries to say there’s no right or wrong in that argument but there clearly is because of the way it ends. Obviously she has her reasons for not telling him anything but it still frames her as the one in the wrong.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Ottservia

[Alastor15243]

11 hours ago, Teehee the Sixth said:

Sure. Here it is:

Done and done.

[Seazas]

Alm ever since Gaiden was always an unchallenged dude. Even when he directly disobeys Mycen, Mycen pretty much encourages him when they meet at the end of Gaiden's Act 1. He was just meant to be your standard likable hero that succeeds in an era of standard likable heroes. Like a lot of what Echoes had to do, it doesn't age too well... I still love it though. 

Also, Alm is 100% displayed in the right. Even in Gaiden, Alm says that he plans to humbly return to the village after finding the princess. He has no large "warmongering" dreams like some fans tend to display him as.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Seazas

[Acacia Sgt]

It wouldn't surprise me if it stems from people thinking he has to fully embrace Duma's ideals or something to contrast Celica doing the same with Mila's. That's not what they're foils to. But rather, on the matter of doing things on their own versus relying on the gods.

I mean, it doesn't help that Duma's ideology is similar, thus unironically being the one easier to be confused with "We can't rely on the gods forever", since Duma already teach his half of Valentia to be self-resourceful. Just in a selfish way. Which is where the whole "needs to be tempered with Mila's teachings of kindness" comes in. As a Rigelian who grew up in Zofia, with Mycen as a tie to his Rigelian roots, Alm ends up serving as a foil to Celica who is both Zofian born and Zofian raised. And in SoV, with Berkut too, who is Rigelian born and Rigelian raised.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I don't think it is a necessary tragedy anymore than Celica giving her soul is, both are avoidable if not for their flaws. It may have been Rudolf's plan, but if Alm knew Rudolf was his father would it have ended that way? Rudolf literally will not Attack/counter attack Alm, if Alm did the same how would it end?

Maybe Rudolf would meet his end on the blade of one of Alm's subordinates? If Alm refuses to fight, Rudolf would likely force the issue. Perhaps through taunts or threats. His whole dumbass plan involves himself dying, and Alm thereby inheriting the throne of Rigel.

5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

His only plan for freeing Delthea is to directly attack Tatarrah instead of trying any subterfuge or magical plan to free her more safely (and can kill her in the attempt). His only plan for safely freeing Mathilda is charge and hope Duesaix doesn't kill her in a timely fashion (and yes she can die, and get some serious scolding from Clive for it).

Both of these can work out, though. And Mathilda was slated for execution, so it's not like holding back could have given her higher odds of survival. As for Delthea, I feel like a "flawed Alm" would be ready to attack her. "She may be brainwashed, but she's still working for the enemy. So I won't hesitate to cut her down, if she poses a threat." And then somebody else in the army tries to talk him down (Clair? Lukas? IDK.). But if anything, it's the opposite - Clive is the "let's not bother saving her" guy, which Alm rebuts with "bla bla compassion". He's specifically able to rein in his supposed major flaw, when not doing so would have negative consequences. 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Alm's route also has the new original character of Berkut as an enemy while all Celcia's enemies are from Gaiden, save random nameless mooks his accost her in Conrad's first appearance. There's also some suggestion that Berkut was originally intended to be playable which would suggest they never placed such limitations on themselves.

Alm's side got Fernand, too. And redesigned Nuibaba. Damn, Celica got the short end of the stick, when it comes to villains. And why do they all end with a "-th"?

Coulda been neat to give Celica a recurting villain - maybe a member of the Duma Faithful who isn't totally gone mad? Say, a female Arcanist, who later returns as a Cantor, if that's allowed. She could replace Dolth, because WTF kind of name is "Dolth" anyway, after appearing on the Arcanist ship in Act 2.

[eclipse]

15 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Coulda been neat to give Celica a recurting villain - maybe a member of the Duma Faithful who isn't totally gone mad? Say, a female Arcanist, who later returns as a Cantor, if that's allowed. She could replace Dolth, because WTF kind of name is "Dolth" anyway, after appearing on the Arcanist ship in Act 2.

Or maybe someone who had a falling-out with Mila's worshippers, and wants revenge?  I can't imagine that everything within their religion is peachy-clean.

[Jotari]

17 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 Alm's side got Fernand, too. And redesigned Nuibaba. Damn, Celica got the short end of the stick, when it comes to villains. And why do they all end with a "-th"?

Coulda been neat to give Celica a recurting villain - maybe a member of the Duma Faithful who isn't totally gone mad? Say, a female Arcanist, who later returns as a Cantor, if that's allowed. She could replace Dolth, because WTF kind of name is "Dolth" anyway, after appearing on the Arcanist ship in Act 2.

I don't think there's much worth in adding a new character just for the sake of adding them, which largely how I feel Berkut turned out. So if there were a new villain for Celica to face then they'd need to challenge her some interesting new way narratively, or at least with interesting gameplay. A new playable character doesn't require such justification to slot into the narrative though and, especially a villager, brings more interesting gameplay by virtue of being playable.

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Or maybe someone who had a falling-out with Mila's worshippers, and wants revenge?  I can't imagine that everything within their religion is peachy-clean.

I believe there is datamined content that suggests the Mila Faithful were a faction in gameplay despite no Mila Faithful units ever appearing on any maps. So it's actually possible they were planning to have some kind of corrupted followers of Mila causing some trouble somewhere. Unfrotuantely we never got any hints of what I really, really, wanted them to do, which was show Rudolf's battle against Mila in gameplay and letting us use all the major bosses from throughout the game.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

On the topic of Berkut let me just say how wasted of a character he is like he’s supposed to foil Alm but their dynamic ends up being so one sided that it’s honestly pathetic. He really is just Alm’s punching bag both literally and metaphorically. Sucks too because there was some real potential there. Like the thing about SoV is that every foil relationship it ends up trying to make ends up falling flat in some way. 

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

On the topic of Berkut let me just say how wasted of a character he is like he’s supposed to foil Alm but their dynamic ends up being so one sided that it’s honestly pathetic. He really is just Alm’s punching bag both literally and metaphorically. Sucks too because there was some real potential there. Like the thing about SoV is that every foil relationship it ends up trying to make ends up falling flat in some way. 

Literal! Gauntlet Alm for Heroes! Nah, but yeah, I agree, Berkut was a bit of a let down. He seemed super well received when the game first came out though, so my feelings could be a result of bias from playing Gaiden first, as for every scene with him in it I was questioning what it was actually doing to further the story or Alm's arc. And the answer is, mostly nothing. Berkut cares a tonne about Alm, but Alm doesn't seem to think about Berkut at all. Honestly I had high hopes for Berkut when his existence was announced. As a rival to the throne for Alm is an interesting idea. I also thought they were adding him so he'd eventually be playable and the character you give the Royal Sword to when Alm gets Falchion (which once you know he's a cavalier would suggest dual weapon types for everyone not named Alm were going to be a thing, but alas, no).

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Literal! Gauntlet Alm for Heroes! Nah, but yeah, I agree, Berkut was a bit of a let down. He seemed super well received when the game first came out though, so my feelings could be a result of bias from playing Gaiden first, as for every scene with him in it I was questioning what it was actually doing to further the story or Alm's arc. And the answer is, mostly nothing. Berkut cares a tonne about Alm, but Alm doesn't seem to think about Berkut at all. Honestly I had high hopes for Berkut when his existence was announced. As a rival to the throne for Alm is an interesting idea. I also thought they were adding him so he'd eventually be playable and the character you give the Royal Sword to when Alm gets Falchion (which once you know he's a cavalier would suggest dual weapon types for everyone not named Alm were going to be a thing, but alas, no).

That and then there’s his whole thing with Rinea which is just gross but that’s a whole other can of worms. Like I can see what they’re going for with Berkut but it doesn’t work because He and Alm are nothing alike nor do they oppose each other in any meaningful way. A foil relationship only works when it works to highlight how similar/different the two characters are despite their already established similarities/differences. Alm and Berkut’s dynamic doesn’t do that at all.

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

On the topic of Berkut let me just say how wasted of a character he is like he’s supposed to foil Alm but their dynamic ends up being so one sided that it’s honestly pathetic. He really is just Alm’s punching bag both literally and metaphorically. Sucks too because there was some real potential there. Like the thing about SoV is that every foil relationship it ends up trying to make ends up falling flat in some way. 

The inherent concept of Berkut being this "hype rival" that some fans expected him to be was never going to work as it requires contradicting Gaiden, where Alm is meant to steamroll Rigel. Berkut is fine as he is in a story like Gaiden's, and I'm glad that the story didn't do some bullshit where it continued to hype him up yet Berkut continuously loses and retreats due to the nature of FE. Instead he's handled where the Rigelian people themselves mock or turn their backs on Berkut. 

The entire story hinges on Alm succeeding, they can't have a fully fleshed out relationship because they're nothing but enemies in a war that never met each other prior. It's far better imo that Berkut is treated as a fall from grace with Berkut getting a harsh reality check. It's not perfect obviously (when is an FE villain ever handled perfectly?) but I prefer that idea of Berkut being acknowledged as a stranger and an obstacle.

They have a good enough foil, especially when it's confirmed that Alm would be exactly like Berkut if he was raised in Rigel. Alm continues to rise and succeed, no longer ignoring reality and instead embracing it. He found himself, described by Tobin in the third base conversation. Alm also says he found his place in the world in Faye's last support conversation with him. Berkut however, fails and loses himself, the instant he faces any sort of reality he crumbles. Berkut completely ignores a man's achievements if they aren't from a noble station, Alm's closest friends are from common birth and he strived to change things for the better with common folk (confirmed in Gray's third base conversation). He also questioned Lukas about it. They happen to be similar where both Alm and Berkut share beliefs of being destined for something greater than themselves.

"I know I’m meant for more than this! But you have to let me find it!" -Alm

"I was meant for greatness! But you, you’re just a…just a…" -Berkut

Edited June 4, 2021 by Seazas

[Eltosian Kadath]

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I’d argue the whole Jedah thing with her is a more appropriate parallel because they happen around the same time and are both given the same amount of dramatic weight

Just skipping over the Sluice gate example? It parallels the timing better (since that seems to matter to you), and where he finally realizes that Celica is the princess, and that the only way he saved people was with her help.

 

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

No that’s not what happens in that argument at all.

Everything I said was true about the argument

 

5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Alm early on in that argument by outright saying he doesn't care about Rudolf's plans and intentions.

Quote

Celica: Is it really so naive? Zofians and Rigelians are both people of Valentia, are we not? I know we can reach some kind of accord if we just try. Besides that, I... I just can’t imagine Emperor Rudolf is the monster some claim him to be.

Alm: It doesn’t matter what sort of man he is. The Rigelian Empire chose to cross Zofia’s border—that’s a fact. We aim to drive back the invaders. Nothing more.

Alm makes it perfectly clear that his only interest in Rudolf is fighting him.

 

5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

He hurt Celica through his ignorance of who she is, and if it were his inclination he could have put the pieces together here and prevented that.

Quote

Alm: Do you think I WANTED this fight? This all started because Lima IV went and angered the empire. If you wish to point fingers, point them at the ruler who failed his people. It’s his fault we’re in this mess.

Celica: That’s not... Well, so what if it is? Maybe you should go become king if it’s such a damnably easy job!

Alm: What? Celica, that’s not—

Celica: You’re awfully free with accusations for a boy with no idea what royalty entails! And now that you’re a “hero,” I imagine the throne is next on the list, is that it?!

The tone helps sell this point as well, but rather than embed a bunch of videos I will stick with text. To further emphasize that Alm hurt Celica with his words, she ends it off with

Quote

Celica: Enough! Just…enough. Go fight your war if it makes you happy! I’m going to the Temple of Mila. …Good-bye, Alm. You... you stubborn JERK!

She might not like her father, but having someone blame him for everything that is going wrong still hurts, and that he is kinda right makes it hurt more. Alm even recognizes that he hurt her when next they speak, saying

Quote

Alm: Ugh, now I’m cringing at what I said to you before. Talk about thoughtless! Forgive me, Celica. But don’t worry—I promise I’ll get your kingdom back. So please promise me in turn that you won’t—

 

5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

To emphasize his failure here, after Celica leaves he even laments not asking a question that would have revealed who she was, and prevented him from hurting Cleica with his words

Quote

(As Celica says "You stubborn jerk", a CG image of Celica leaving Alm fades in)

Alm: Celica… You’re one to talk about stubbornness, geez... Ah, damn it all. I didn’t even get the chance to ask her about the village... About why she had to leave. Oh, Celica... I had so much I wanted to say to you. How did it end up like this?

He should have put two and two together after his second meeting with Slayde, and hearing about the missing princess, but even if he didn't the answer to this question would have told him.

 

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Because he calmly says that he would be willing to drop everything and go back to ram village if the princess decided to reveal herself only for her to lash out at him and accuse him of wanting to he king when that’s clearly not his intention.

She lashes out because Alm hurt her. He might say that about the return of the princess, but the oblivious fool doesn't understand that what he says wouldn't happen because of who the princess is, and he really should know better.

 

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Alm is definitely framed as the more reasonable one by the end of it.

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

The way the argument flows and ends paints Celica as the unreasonable one.

In the sense that Alm hurt Celica with his words so successfully that she felt the need to lash out and leave, all while remaining blissfully ignorant.

 

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

The story tries to say there’s no right or wrong in that argument but there clearly is because of the way it ends. Obviously she has her reasons for not telling him anything but it still frames her as the one in the wrong.

I have to agree with the story here, this isn't as one sided as you act. Celica certainly lashed out, and questioned Alms action fairly pointedly, but Alm wasn't a saint either. He hurt her, emphasized his own ignorance, and he should have known better, even could have if he were the kind of person to think things through.

 

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Both of these can work out, though.

It can, if the player is willing to suffer through the situation Alm put them in with his actions.

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 And Mathilda was slated for execution, so it's not like holding back could have given her higher odds of survival.

They only start executing her when Alm attacks. Alm could have tried some form of subterfuge to extract her more safely than charge in while they try to kill her (for example having the expert on stealth Lukas get an extraction force in closer before attacking).

 

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for Delthea, I feel like a "flawed Alm" would be ready to attack her. "She may be brainwashed, but she's still working for the enemy. So I won't hesitate to cut her down, if she poses a threat." And then somebody else in the army tries to talk him down (Clair? Lukas? IDK.). But if anything, it's the opposite - Clive is the "let's not bother saving her" guy, which Alm rebuts with "bla bla compassion". He's specifically able to rein in his supposed major flaw, when not doing so would have negative consequences. 

Alm's weakness isn't malice, he just doesn't think through his actions. Just like with Mathilda, there are ways to approach saving her that work better than simply attacking the fort she is in. Sure he wont kill her, but he didn't think things through beyond that either.

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

In the sense that Alm hurt Celica with his words so successfully that she felt the need to lash out and leave, all while remaining blissfully ignorant.

He's less ignorant of it in Gaiden, outright using the hurtful word ひどいよ to her. Which the fan translation rendered as cruel. In the manga he's even harsher, getting right up in her face about it

Though he's also more impassioned about not wanting Celica to put herself in danger. He also has a much more virulent anti Mila streak which is what really sets Celica off.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

He's less ignorant of it in Gaiden, outright using the hurtful word ひどいよ to her. Which the fan translation rendered as cruel. In the manga he's even harsher, getting right up in her face about it

Though he's also more impassioned about not wanting Celica to put herself in danger. He also has a much more virulent anti Mila streak which is what really sets Celica off.

Where did the fan translation use "cruel" again? Is it when Celica directly accuses him of trying to take the throne? Because he doesn't say anything else otherwise and that "hurtful word" is apparently him saying that's terrible of her to say he's a warmonger. Which clearly isn't that hurtful. Him being "less ignorant" is kind of a headcanon as Alm explains his point of view in defense when Celica makes that accusation, unaware that she's the princess. Celica then snaps at him and storms off with Alm having a line of "Celica!?" rather than a line that shows any sort of understanding.

It's not even like: "Celica..." or "Goodbye Celica." instead it's just "Celica!?" with Celica being the one to somberly say "Goodbye, Alm...". That leans more into interpretation that Alm was unaware, which makes sense if you make the point that Alm was in his own beliefs, he didn't put together why Dozla wanted to kill Celica and that she's a princess until much later on. He's definitely ignorant in Gaiden.

What anti-Mila streak? He never brings her up in Gaiden nor does he ever really talk about the gods until maybe at the end. Him believing that Rigel is cruel and that they had no choice but to fight isn't this "super terrible thing".

The manga is not a good example as it isn't canon/connected directly by Intsys; the manga takes a lot of drastic changes from the original. The idea of Alm getting in her face about it feels off as Alm doesn't imply any aggressive behaviors toward her specifically. Alm in general is fairly chill in his minimal Gaiden dialogue. It'd only make sense that Alm would be "in her face" is if he's hurt by Celica's claim and is trying to be eye-to-eye with her about what he feels. But even then, that's a stretch as Alm is passive in a lot of Gaiden's dialogue, such as "Luka" insulting his own grandfather and Alm always hearing people out no matter the severity of the situation.

Gaiden and Echoes Alm aren't these super separate characters you tend to believe they are. Outside of minor changes to the way he speaks for consistency values, the bulk of Alm's aggression that people associate him with aren't from the official Gaiden game.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Seazas

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

They only start executing her when Alm attacks. Alm could have tried some form of subterfuge to extract her more safely than charge in while they try to kill her (for example having the expert on stealth Lukas get an extraction force in closer before attacking).

Fernand visits Mathilda, before Alm launches his attack, and tells her "hey you're being executed tomorrow". Alm's invasion may have  hastened it, but definitely didn't trigger it.

4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Alm's weakness isn't malice, he just doesn't think through his actions. Just like with Mathilda, there are ways to approach saving her that work better than simply attacking the fort she is in. Sure he wont kill her, but he didn't think things through beyond that either.

My point is, he doesn't face any penalties for "not thinking things through". Like, it's theoretically possible he would (in playthroughs where Mathilda and Delthea die), but neither of those are canonically guaranteed. Even getting stuck on Necrodragon Mountain, which could have been portrayed as due to recklessness, is just a needed step on his way to fight Rudolf. And nobody in-game is suggesting any serious alternatives to "just rushing in", in most cases beyond Lukas in Act I.