New Heroes Arrive! Dark Burdens (May 8th)

[IEatLasers]

And then they’re connected so really, doesn’t make a difference. They are one 

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, IEatLasers said:

not really. Because robin’s are one person, just alternate variants of one another. Male to female Robin is as “alt” as “alt” gets. They’re both the same person with the same history and same future. 

On the other hand, the game puts all of male Robin's alts immediately after him and all of female Robin's alts immediately after her. It's clear the game treats them as different characters.

You can't use the argument that the game treats Lucina and Masked Marth as the same character and then ignore the fact that the game treats male and female Robin as different characters. Again, same with the Three Houses characters.

 

4 minutes ago, IEatLasers said:

And then they’re connected so really, doesn’t make a difference. They are one 

Flame Emperor and Edelgard are way more connected than Robin and Grima. So connected, in fact, that they are literally one and the same person and not even of two separate minds.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Baldrick]

In my opinion, alts are alts, no matter the identity shenanigans. I would even count Itsuki as a Chrom alt.

In terms of alts created specifically for Heroes, which I think is the salient point regarding favouritism, Chrom has four, Lucina has three and Robin has two.

[IEatLasers]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

On the other hand, the game puts all of male Robin's alts immediately after him and all of female Robin's alts immediately after her. It's clear the game treats them as different characters.

You can't use the argument that the game treats Lucina and Masked Marth as the same character and then ignore the fact that the game treats male and female Robin as different characters. Again, same with the Three Houses characters.

 

Flame Emperor and Edelgard are way more connected than Robin and Grima. So connected, in fact, that they are literally one and the same person and not even of two separate minds.

I don’t know female robins code in game but I’m pretty sure she’s also in the 1302 vein. Cipher considers them different but I don’t know that heroes does. we will know for sure if either One Robin wins cyl and the other isn’t removed, or male Robin gets a legendary even though female did already. 
 

yes they are, But like I said, they were avoiding spoilers for a still new game. We will know for sure when they reveal Jeritza where they stand about masked characters (though jeritza has legitimate multiple personalities, I think most consider them the same character) 

 

6 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

In my opinion, alts are alts, no matter the identity shenanigans. I would even count Itsuki as a Chrom alt.

In terms of alts created specifically for Heroes, which I think is the salient point regarding favouritism, Chrom has four, Lucina has three and Robin has two.

how 4? 
Spring, yes

Chrismtas, yes 

knight Exalt may be his great lord. He doesn’t wear the fire emblem, and the silver was changed to White, and the falchion isn’t Awakened falchion and this doesn’t glow orange. So there are liberties, But this may be their take on Great Lord Chrom. 
but either way 

legendary Chrom is lifted from cipher, and those robes existed in Warriors as well 

[Jotari]

48 minutes ago, IEatLasers said:

And then they’re connected so really, doesn’t make a difference. They are one 

No, they're two. Can't connect one thing to itself. Has to be two to make a connection.

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, IEatLasers said:

knight Exalt may be his great lord. He doesn’t wear the fire emblem, and the silver was changed to White, and the falchion isn’t Awakened falchion and this doesn’t glow orange. So there are liberties, But this may be their take on Great Lord Chrom. 
but either way 

Brave Lucina is just her as a Great Lord but I still counted it. The same could be said for many different alts.

1 hour ago, IEatLasers said:

legendary Chrom is lifted from cipher, and those robes existed in Warriors as well 

Actually, that’s a good point. Even if it‘s not original, redrawing it multiple times for Heroes and making it playable is still favouritism towards Chrom.

[IEatLasers]

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Brave Lucina is just her as a Great Lord but I still counted it. The same could be said for many different alts.

Actually, that’s a good point. Even if it‘s not original, redrawing it multiple times for Heroes and making it playable is still favouritism towards Chrom.

I can see how brand new never before used concepts are favoritism. But concepts that already exist being made into alts is a bit lower effort. 
Maybe risen king Chrom, if they ever add him, as fallen typically means red eyes and purple mist; but Chrom Would he significantly more work. But barring that Chrom’s legendary got no more love than any other 

 

Chrom’s spring alt was in the first batch of seasonable, and is arguably more designed than modern spring units so I can get that, but lucina has that. 
 

Santa Chrom and co. Are also the first to use those looks so I can see giving him that point. But Robin has that. 
 

I think it was kinda a way to give heroes Chrom a tie to both of his major sidekicks. But I could see the favoritism argument. Imo, it isn’t a fair comment for his Legendary or Lucina’s brave alt, or marth alt, though 

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, IEatLasers said:

I don’t know female robins code in game but I’m pretty sure she’s also in the 1302 vein. Cipher considers them different but I don’t know that heroes does. we will know for sure if either One Robin wins cyl and the other isn’t removed, or male Robin gets a legendary even though female did already. 

Heroes clearly considers them to be different. Male Robin has origin ID 100000100200 whereas female Robin has origin ID 100000100300, which is used to sort characters by origin and is the reason why their alts appear after their base versions and not interspersed with each other.

CYL obviously does not follow the same logic that the game does internally, so what CYL does is meaningless to how they are treated within the game. After all, it combines votes for Tellius characters and disqualifies them together on victory, but Tellius characters have two IDs, one for each game.

 

2 hours ago, IEatLasers said:

yes they are, But like I said, they were avoiding spoilers for a still new game.

That's just your assumption, whereas the much simpler and more reasonable explanation is the fact that the game simply considers them to be separate characters, like the Black Knight and Zelgius or the male and female versions of Robin and Corrin.

[IEatLasers]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Heroes clearly considers them to be different. Male Robin has origin ID 100000100200 whereas female Robin has origin ID 100000100300, which is used to sort characters by origin and is the reason why their alts appear after their base versions and not interspersed with each other.

CYL obviously does not follow the same logic that the game does internally, so what CYL does is meaningless to how they are treated within the game. After all, it combines votes for Tellius characters and disqualifies them together on victory, but Tellius characters have two IDs, one for each game.

 

That's just your assumption, whereas the much simpler and more reasonable explanation is the fact that the game simply considers them to be separate characters, like the Black Knight and Zelgius or the male and female versions of Robin and Corrin.

In thst case, due to the game coding them as separate entities, I’ll concede that Robin male and female are different in heroes~ Mostly because it seems to mean a LOT to you that I say Chrom has more alts than Robin  

now everything is right again, with the main character having more. 
 

it’s an assumption for now, but with one piece of evidence it’s impossible to say otherwise, yet. (And black knight and zelgius are 2 game characters so they don’t really count, as I don’t think anyone counts Ike and Ike differently” 

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, IEatLasers said:

Mostly because it seems to mean a LOT to you that I say Chrom has more alts than Robin  

I have no idea what you were actually arguing, nor do I care. However, the points you made were flawed, either in content, in consistency, or in logic, and that's all I really care about.

 

1 hour ago, IEatLasers said:

(And black knight and zelgius are 2 game characters so they don’t really count, as I don’t think anyone counts Ike and Ike differently” 

Except that they are listed as two separate characters. The characters of Tellius are ordered by nation or faction within their games. Black Knight is between Ashnard and Ilyana and therefore clearly listed under Daein. Zelgius is between Sanaki and Oliver and therefore clearly listed under Begnion.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Ether]

You don't even need to look at in game IDs or anything of the sort to figure out that Heroes considers male and female versions of a given avatar as separate entities, you just need to look at the Corrins. They both have an adrift and now a fallen alt, and the adrifts were even on the same banner. If they considered them to be the same, they would have only put one Corrin or the other in each theme as opposed to both. 

[Icelerate]

13 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Except that they are listed as two separate characters. The characters of Tellius are ordered by nation or faction within their games. Black Knight is between Ashnard and Ilyana and therefore clearly listed under Daein. Zelgius is between Sanaki and Oliver and therefore clearly listed under Begnion.

Isn't Ilyana Crimean? 

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Isn't Ilyana Crimean? 

You recruit her from the Daein army in Path of Radiance. I believe she ends up staying in Crimea only after the war.

[Anacybele]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

You recruit her from the Daein army in Path of Radiance. I believe she ends up staying in Crimea only after the war.

That was because the Daeins found her and forced her to fight for them or else they'd kill her. Originally, Ilyana was with the merchant group and her country of origin isn't...known at all, I think.

[Othin]

7 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Isn't Ilyana Crimean? 

She's certainly not grouped with the Crimeans in the catalogue. She's at the end of the list, which could mean either Daein or "unaffiliated".

[Icelerate]

7 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You recruit her from the Daein army in Path of Radiance. I believe she ends up staying in Crimea only after the war.

What about Haar then? Is he Begnion, Daein or Crimean? I think he should be Crimean because he's listed as RD form what I remember. 

[Tybrosion]

41 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

What about Haar then? Is he Begnion, Daein or Crimean? I think he should be Crimean because he's listed as RD form what I remember. 

Nah, he's grouped with the Begnion characters (he's after Oliver) since that where he's originally from. I guess that's the reason, anyways.

[Anacybele]

Haar is indeed from Begnion. He defected to Daein when he got fed up with the stupidity going on in the Begnion senate.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Icelerate said:

What about Haar then? Is he Begnion, Daein or Crimean? I think he should be Crimean because he's listed as RD form what I remember. 

2 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

Nah, he's grouped with the Begnion characters (he's after Oliver) since that where he's originally from. I guess that's the reason, anyways.

I'm actually 80% sure that Haar is classified as Daein. There are no other Daein characters in the Radiant Dawn section in Heroes other than the Dawn Brigade, and I'm pretty sure the Dawn Brigade is listed as its own separate faction at the very beginning instead of being lumped with the rest of Daein.

Under the assumption that both games are listed in the same order (because it actually lines up), it looks like they follow the order

1. Dawn Brigade
2. Greil Mercenaries
3. Crimea
4. Laguz nations
5. Begnion
6. Daein
7. Unaffiliated

[Tybrosion]

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm actually 80% sure that Haar is classified as Daein. There are no other Daein characters in the Radiant Dawn section in Heroes other than the Dawn Brigade, and I'm pretty sure the Dawn Brigade is listed as its own separate faction at the very beginning instead of being lumped with the rest of Daein.

Under the assumption that both games are listed in the same order (because it actually lines up), it looks like they follow the order

1. Dawn Brigade
2. Greil Mercenaries
3. Crimea
4. Laguz nations
5. Begnion
6. Daein
7. Unaffiliated

Yeah, that could be it too. I suppose we'll only know for sure if Jill or another non-Dawn Brigade Daein character gets added as a Radiant Dawn character.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Tybrosion said:

Yeah, that could be it too. I suppose we'll only know for sure if Jill or another non-Dawn Brigade Daein character gets added as a Radiant Dawn character.

 

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm actually 80% sure that Haar is classified as Daein. There are no other Daein characters in the Radiant Dawn section in Heroes other than the Dawn Brigade, and I'm pretty sure the Dawn Brigade is listed as its own separate faction at the very beginning instead of being lumped with the rest of Daein.

Under the assumption that both games are listed in the same order (because it actually lines up), it looks like they follow the order

1. Dawn Brigade
2. Greil Mercenaries
3. Crimea
4. Laguz nations
5. Begnion
6. Daein
7. Unaffiliated

We already have Ashnard and the Black Knight who are located away from Haar. Though I suppose that's because they're being classed as Path of Radiance characters. Hmm. We might be waiting awhile because the likes of Jill or Zihark could be classed as Path if Radiance characters too. We'd need to wait for Meg or Izuka or Fiona. Hardly popular characters (wait why is Haar classed as a Radiant Dawn character anyway!? Is this just all based on the banners they came with? Man it's silly to seperate them by game in this scenario imo).

Edited May 14, 2020 by Jotari

[Othin]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

 

We already have Ashnard and the Black Knight who are located away from Haar. Though I suppose that's because they're being classed as Path of Radiance characters. Hmm. We might be waiting awhile because the likes of Jill or Zihark could be classed as Path if Radiance characters too. We'd need to wait for Meg or Izuka or Fiona. Hardly popular characters (wait why is Haar classed as a Radiant Dawn character anyway!? Is this just all based on the banners they came with? Man it's silly to seperate them by game in this scenario imo).

It's based on banner, yeah. There's first all the FE9 characters, then all the FE10 ones. Ike, Mia, Elincia, and Sanaki have versions appearing in both sections.

[Ice Dragon]

29 minutes ago, Jotari said:

wait why is Haar classed as a Radiant Dawn character anyway!?

The Haar we have in Heroes talks about running a delivery service, which is what he did after the events of Path of Radiance, and has his armor design from Radiant Dawn (note the wavy pauldrons).

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The Haar we have in Heroes talks about running a delivery service, which is what he did after the events of Path of Radiance, and has his armor design from Radiant Dawn (note the wavy pauldrons).

And yet his Grand Hero Battle is based off of his Path of Radiance recruitment.

[Tybrosion]

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And yet his Grand Hero Battle is based off of his Path of Radiance recruitment.

They also gave Naesala a Path of Radiance map (Chapter 19), and one that also isn't in Radiant Dawn, even though he is also labeled as Radiant Dawn.