Serenes Forest's Teehee Thread

[Lightcosmo]

6 hours ago, twilitfalchion said:

Yes. Units with the skill Pursuit are the only ones who can double. It's not a proc skill, but it's annoying nonetheless.

 

6 hours ago, Armagon said:

Yeah and it's one of the main reasons the game sucks shit tbh.

Anti FE4 Cult.

Seriously now, doubling is something that needs to see a nerf in FE. Berwick punished it in a decent way, which is better than nothing. It's just way too good in general. So, i don't mind the skill existing since i don't really like the whole "hey i get 2 free hits in with no drawback whatsoever!" idea.

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Dinosaur Omelet?

There was an ancient late 90s-early 2000s, now very dead, website of fantasy creatures which featured a giant primordial omelet in its dinosaur land from which all could partake on a daily basis. Although I went on that site only for a short time and nowhere near as in-depth as others did, my memory still recalls that.

 

 

---

By sheer coincidence with regards to yesterday, today is the 17th year since Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean released on the GameCube. One of Monolith's lesser titles co-developed with Tri-Crescendo. Monolith it has been stated by the game's directors, was responsible for the scenario and graphics, while Tri-Crescendo was responsible for the gameplay and sound. Although the game is almost certainly an inferior one in Monolith's catalog (and the same can be said of its prequel Baten Kaitos: Origins), I will childishly insist that Alrest is the marriage of XC1's Bionis & Mechonis with BK's sky.😜

[null]

8 hours ago, Kasumi Yoshizawa said:

R.I.P. mom (1966-2020)

I can't even say I'm shcoked, just sad, I think she's in a better place now.

I'm so, so sorry for your loss. Please take care of yourself. And I wish only peace and comfort for you and your family at this time.

[Armagon]

3 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Seriously now, doubling is something that needs to see a nerf in FE.

I strongly disagree. Doubling is so fundamental that nerfing it would do nothing but harm. The way Berwick did it made sense in the context of Berwick because of how the turn order works. The way Berwick handles doubling would not work in Fire Emblem.

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

By sheer coincidence with regards to yesterday, today is the 17th year since Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean released on the GameCube. One of Monolith's lesser titles co-developed with Tri-Crescendo. Monolith it has been stated by the game's directors, was responsible for the scenario and graphics, while Tri-Crescendo was responsible for the gameplay and sound. Although the game is almost certainly an inferior one in Monolith's catalog (and the same can be said of its prequel Baten Kaitos: Origins), I will childishly insist that Alrest is the marriage of XC1's Bionis & Mechonis with BK's sky.😜

Reminds me I still intend to finish this game someday. Although I think I might have to start over, I don't think I have my saves anymore. Thankfully, I wasn't that far in, iirc, I just recruited the third party member.

[Codename Shrimp]

@Armagon

Yeah Ramen was a bit annoying

@Benice

Thanks!

@Kasumi Yoshizawa

I am sorry for your loss, Kasumi. Stay safe and take care of yourself, and may she rest in peace.

[Lightcosmo]

18 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I strongly disagree. Doubling is so fundamental that nerfing it would do nothing but harm. The way Berwick did it made sense in the context of Berwick because of how the turn order works. The way Berwick handles doubling would not work in Fire Emblem.

"Fundamental", what do you mean by that, exactly? 

I think it would work fine, it wouldnt be 100% guaranteed free kills anymore, which would be balanced. Now it taking too long or not is a different story, but if you have a broken mechanic cause the game takes too long, well you know what the real problem is, then.

[Codename Shrimp]

22 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

it wouldnt be 100% guaranteed free kills anymore, which would be balanced.

No it would make just the game slower since one rounds won't be a thing anymore. It will suck. FE doesn't need to be slower.

The only acceptable nerf for double attack is to not make it possible for the defending unit/Enemy phase, shifting the game even more towards player phase focus. The only change i would welcome.

Making it a skill ala FE4 will just make the player juggernaut with those unit, which something already happens in FE4. 

Berwick is way different, so you can't compare.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Shrimperor

[Armagon]

26 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I think it would work fine, it wouldnt be 100% guaranteed free kills anymore, which would be balanced.

But it's already balanced. You need a certain amount of speed to double and that's not even taking into account weight penalties.

Even Gaiden/SoV do this, yeah 1 AS would be cringe in the context of a normal Fire Emblem but Gaiden/SoV doesn't even follow the same rules as traditional Fire Emblem. Just like Berwick.

5 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

The only acceptible nerf for double attack is to not make it possible for the defending unit/Enemy phase, shifting the game even more towards player phase focus. The only change i would welcome

Breaking news: Armor Knights gain usefulness.

Edit: wait, I misread, Armor Knights would still kinda suck in this scenario.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Armagon

[Acacia Sgt]

Doubling, huh.

SRW has pretty much never need it. Then again, it has a different structure of battle mechanics...

Edited December 5, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Lightcosmo]

13 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

No it would make just the game slower since one rounds won't be a thing anymore. It will suck. FE doesn't need to be slower.

The only acceptable nerf for double attack is to not make it possible for the defending unit/Enemy phase, shifting the game even more towards player phase focus. The only change i would welcome.

Making it a skill ala FE4 will just make the player juggernaut with those unit, which something already happens in FE4. 

Berwick is way different, so you can't compare.

Your only looking at it from "convenience". That's just justifying that it's a broken mechanic. Only other option I see would be to half damage from the second hit. Speed is s stat that needs a nerf, and hitting its offensive side would hurt the most. 

One rounds existing is what makes tanks useless.

9 minutes ago, Armagon said:

But it's already balanced. You need a certain amount of speed to double and that's not even taking into account weight penalties.

I dont think its balanced at all. Consider this: why are brave weapons always broken? Because you get 1 extra attack, with no cost/drawback. Brave weapons, in most cases are limited and their effect is still godly. Doubling is just as powerful without a cost. Also a reason why nowadays, the enemy side always has fast units, why not have a dodge tank + offence beast? It's a two in one, and most units cant survive a double hit on average. That's why older FE games didn't allow enemies to double on average, it would be instant resets in alot of cases. And If something is that good, odds are it needs to be nerfed somehow. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by lightcosmo

[Sidereal Wraith]

Well I'm up to Chapter 4 in FE1. Kind of a pain not being able to trade items from the menu before battle. 

[null]

When I do get to FE1, I'm thinking of doing that Marth solo I had in mind. FE1 Marth is broken, especially since rapiers are so easy to buy once you get far enough.

[Codename Shrimp]

7 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

hitting its offensive side would hurt the most. 

And make the game worse & slower in the process. Much worse. It's not about ''convenience'', it's about pacing.

Game should promote offense even more, not nerf it.

7 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

One rounds existing is what makes tanks useless

No. Tanks are useless because they have no defense to begin with. 5 Extra def don't mean a thing.

7 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

with no cost/drawback

Gold Cost, durability cost, and in the case of Fates, strong debuffs.

Also newer titles nerfed Brave weapons to be play phase only - another good change

Edited December 5, 2020 by Shrimperor

[Armagon]

13 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I dont think its balanced at all. Consider this: why are brave weapons always broken? Because you get 1 extra attack, with no cost/drawback.

Brave Weapons are powerful but to say they have no cost is actually wrong. Each hit uses a durability point, the weapons themselves are expensive as hell and that's assuming you can even buy them in the first place. In some games you only rarely get Braves from chests.

13 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

That's why older FE games didn't allow enemies to double on average, it would be instant resets in alot of cases.

I mean, a good chunk of your units weren't doubling either. Doubling is not as often as it seems.

I can't think of a single game where every unit that I was using could double everyone on a map. Well, maybe SoV but again, different rules.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Armagon

[Lightcosmo]

22 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

And make the game worse & slower in the process. Much worse. It's not about ''convenience'', it's about pacing.

Game should promote offense even more, not nerf it.

No. Tanks are useless because they have no defense to begin with. 5 Extra def don't mean a thing.

Gold Cost, durability cost, and in the case of Fates, strong debuffs.

Also newer titles nerfed Brave weapons to be play phase only - another good change

I dunno about that, I'd prefer battles not to be over in 2 turns, personally.

Promote offence... oh boy where to begin with that. Which units are always considered top tier? Oh, right, offence based units. Theres a good reason for that, maybe because offence is broken? 

Extra 5 def doesnt but speed? Now that's important, funny how that works, isnt it?

Awakening Braves are so broken they are better than the "ultimate" weapons.

That's a start, but still not good enough, imo.

18 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Brave Weapons are powerful but to say they have no cost is actually wrong. Each hit uses a durability point, the weapons themselves are expensive as hell and that's assuming you can even buy them in the first place. In some games you only rarely get Braves from chests.

I mean, a good chunk of your units weren't doubling either. Doubling is not as often as it seems.

I can't think of a single game where every unit that I was using could double everyone on a map. Well, maybe SoV but again, different rules.

They hardly give them to you because they are so broken. 

Ummmm, FE4? Sigurd doubles every enemy. 

[Codename Shrimp]

8 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Theres a good reason for that, maybe because offence is broken? 

Not broken enough. I wouldn't even call it broken.

You know what's broken? Enemy phasing with a handaxe/javelin. That isn't called offensive play, that's defensive.

Offensive player phase tools need a buff, not a nerf.

I don't want (even) slow(er) FE tyvm.

8 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Extra 5 def doesnt but speed? Now that's important, funny how that works, isnt it?

Because 5 extra def don't matter if you're getting doubled. 15 extra def however will matter alot and will make them getting doubled a non-issue.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Shrimperor

[Armagon]

6 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I dunno about that, I'd prefer battles not to be over in 2 turns, personally.

I think you have a fundamentally different way of playing SRPGs. Not saying you have to LTC everything but generally, one doesn't want to spend too long on a map. The longer you spend on a map, the harder a reset will sting.

7 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Promote offence... oh boy where to begin with that. Which units are always considered top tier? Oh, right, offence based units. Theres a good reason for that, maybe because offence is broken? 

That's just video games 101.

8 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Awakening Braves are so broken they are better than the "ultimate" weapons.

Yeah, because it's Awakening. You know, the game with unbalanced Pair Up? Unbalanced Galeforce? 

10 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

They hardly give them to you because they are so broken. 

Yeah but you said they have no cost or drawbacks, even though they do.

10 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Ummmm, FE4? Sigurd doubles every enemy. 

Sigurd is not every unit although I guess he might as well be, he is the best unit in Gen 1.

Honestly, I feel like you're trying to solve a problem that isn't there.

[Sidereal Wraith]

11 hours ago, Kasumi Yoshizawa said:

R.I.P. mom (1966-2020)

I can't even say I'm shcoked, just sad, I think she's in a better place now.

I’m sorry for your lose. I’m sure she is in a better place.

[null]

8 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I think you have a fundamentally different way of playing SRPGs. Not saying you have to LTC everything but generally, one doesn't want to spend too long on a map. The longer you spend on a map, the harder a reset will sting.

Eh...I'm generally of the mindset that a map should generally be allowed to be completed at the player's pace, as slow or as fast as they want. Some maps are exceptions of course, but more often than not, I'd rather approach a map methodically and take my time.

Anyway, as far as doubling goes, I don't think it's doubling itself that could stand to be changed. Instead, I say increase enemy quality. That way, at least the player has more offensive capabilities to tackle the tougher obstacles. I'd rather not nerf the player necessarily. Doubling doesn't feel nearly as broken when the enemy hits harder than you do.

Edited December 5, 2020 by twilitfalchion

[Armagon]

9 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Eh...I'm generally of the mindset that a map should generally be allowed to be completed at the player's pace, as slow or as fast as they want. Some maps are exceptions of course, but more often than not, I'd rather approach a map methodically and take my time

Oh I agree but my point was that the longer you take, the more a reset will sting.

There's a difference between taking your time and wanting maps to be longer, I think.

 

[Spara]

11 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Anyway, as far as doubling goes, I don't think it's doubling itself that could stand to be changed. Instead, I say increase enemy quality. That way, at least the player has more offensive capabilities to tackle the tougher obstacles. I'd rather not nerf the player necessarily. Doubling doesn't feel nearly as broken when the enemy hits harder than you do.

Well, we have to be careful with this kind of thing. 3H Maddening uses very high enemy quality to the point that doubling basically doesn't exist on most enemies, unless you're using Petra or Ingrid. Gambits can kinda mitigate that, but when enemies have it, the game gets even more player-phase and slows down to a crawl. Personally, I think doubling should have a higher AS threshold, 5 or maybe even 6. I know Awakening did 5AS to double, but that game didn't have actual weapon weight, so I think it'll matter more if weapon weight exists and matters too.

[Lightcosmo]

29 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Not broken enough. I wouldn't even call it broken.

You know what's broken? Enemy phasing with a handaxe/javelin. That isn't called offensive play, that's defensive.

Offensive player phase tools need a buff, not a nerf.

I don't want (even) slow(er) FE tyvm.

Because 5 extra def don't matter if you're getting doubled. 15 extra def however will matter alot and will make them getting doubled a non-issue.

I think your in the minority there. 

Would a javelin be broken if you couldn't double? Not really, as it isnt in Fates. 

The did buff offence, it's called galeforce and well... you see the reception on galeforce. 

If you have to use extreme numbers to counter something, that still means it's too good, imo.

23 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I think you have a fundamentally different way of playing SRPGs. Not saying you have to LTC everything but generally, one doesn't want to spend too long on a map. The longer you spend on a map, the harder a reset will sting.

That's just video games 101.

Yeah, because it's Awakening. You know, the game with unbalanced Pair Up? Unbalanced Galeforce? 

Yeah but you said they have no cost or drawbacks, even though they do.

Sigurd is not every unit although I guess he might as well be, he is the best unit in Gen 1.

Honestly, I feel like you're trying to solve a problem that isn't there.

Nah not really, I just think speed needs some drawback, since they didn't do it right, imo.

You did say every unit you were using. 

Seliph, Ares, Shannan, Larcei, Ulster, Ced, Fee, Faval, They can all double. 

Why do weapons have power? That's kinda bias towards the strength stat as defence doesnt get the same input at all. 

Echoes for example, which skills are best? 

Double Lion: brave 

Hunter's volley :brave. 

See the trend here? I dont think its odds those two BRAVE skills are top tier worthy.

Edited December 5, 2020 by lightcosmo

[Codename Shrimp]

5 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

See the trend here? I dont think its odds those two BRAVE skills are top tier worthy.

because Combat arts don't double, that's why.

5 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

If you have to use extreme numbers to counter something

define extreme.

 

6 minutes ago, Spara said:

should have a higher AS threshold, 5 or maybe even 6. I know Awakening did 5AS to double, but that game didn't have actual weapon weight, so I think it'll matter more if weapon weight exists and matters too.

Fates gave weapon penalties and did it pretty well. Steel weapons had a 3 AS penatly for example, Handaxes/Javelins a 5 AS penatly and disallowing doubling, etc

Did it pretty well if you as me

Treshhold was still 5AS

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Reminds me I still intend to finish this game someday. Although I think I might have to start over, I don't think I have my saves anymore. Thankfully, I wasn't that far in, iirc, I just recruited the third party member.

From what I remember of your mentioning of the game, I know you made it to the Cloud Passage at least, which would be the second dungeon after Gibari joins. Or, you possibly just barely made it to the third island, Anuenue.:

Ring any bells?

Also, uh, if you've forgotten the link, don't forget to search "Baten Kaitos Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean Undub" for an ISO with the bad English VAs removed. Typing in that exact phrase should bring up the undubbed version of the ISO as the first result. Since ISO = ROM for Dolphin, I can't actually link it myself for fear of being banned. 😅 I hope that search doesn't result in any spoilers accidentally flying into your face.

[null]

8 minutes ago, Spara said:

Well, we have to be careful with this kind of thing. 3H Maddening uses very high enemy quality to the point that doubling basically doesn't exist on most enemies, unless you're using Petra or Ingrid. Gambits can kinda mitigate that, but when enemies have it, the game gets even more player-phase and slows down to a crawl.

And I don't see an issue with having doubling work that way on higher difficulties. That's the skill the player has to exercise to overcome a greater challenge.