Serenes Forest's Teehee Thread

[Interdimensional Observer]

39 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Hmmmm. Depends. If humanity decided to branch out of NLA and begin building more cities across Mira, i could see some revisitation to previous areas and see how humanity's impact there has manifested itself. Could lead to commentary on how mankind terraforms it's worlds, for better and worse. But the purpose of Mira and Hyrule are vastly different. TotK showed the reconstruction after the apocalypse. Xenoblade X.....just has construction.

We do get that water plant in Primordia. -Which springs up a little toooooooo fast.😅 Maybe there should've been an intermediary quest showing it under construction.

We could also have the Humans & Xenos of NLA move into some conquered Ganglion bases (I'd think the Ganglion would cling on to a few, a stubborn remnant of a once-great foe capable of being used for a sidequest plotline or three). Given they're already built up and look to be in naturally-defensible locations, with a hint of irony, they seem like the practical choice for establishing humanity's first settlements beyond NLA. The scrawny ingame base camp sites by contrast are all in open fields IIRC, just waiting for Hayreddin or some other Tyrant to come and smash them to pieces.

39 minutes ago, Armagon said:

You are still farther than me because i tried to romance Beatrice frame 1 and i stopped progressing the plot lmao.

It feels like maybe I should've checked a guide when I started.😅 Just to see how many dungeons there are, what exists for postgame content, how many events each bachelor/ette gets, what exists to serve as money sinks. That way I could've paced it out better.

(Currently thinking of having all five fields maxed out in size (each Terra Crystal costs 50k to buy) growing a plethora of giant level 10 crops as a postgame self-imposed goal. The "ideal farm". The quantities of Gigantizer, Formula C, and Greenifer+ needed to sustain that and get the trees + crystal flowers to level 10 in a short time will take a looooooot of money. -Although I don't need to finish this goal, I just want something to keep myself distracted once I finish the story, do some dating, and then do a few ingame weeks of play after marriage.)

 

31 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Funny how I had to come across a year old Reddit thread to figure what you meant with UMW.

Ah yes, the United Mine Workers. As noble an organization as any.😄

-I didn't expect anyone would inquire.😅 And TBF, having to look up things online is not unusual with Xenosaga. The jargon isn't exactly entirely explained in the games. (It feels like there is less devilish plot/world-minutiae in Xenosaga to get a headache from than Xenogears though, not sure why.)

Edited December 18, 2023 by Interdimensional Observer

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ah yes, the United Mine Workers. As noble an organization as any.😄

-I didn't expect anyone would inquire.😅 And TBF, having to look up things online is not unusual with Xenosaga. The jargon isn't exactly entirely explained in the games. (It feels like there is less devilish plot/world-minutiae in Xenosaga to get a headache from than Xenogears though, not sure why.)

I mean, I am playing through Xenoblade right now, pft.

[Acacia Sgt]

Ah, right, the vocal theme wasn't the wilderness one...

[Acacia Sgt]

Damn. Chapter 6 done.

Okay, I think I'll stop here. Will continue next weekend.

[Armagon]

Engage Ch.22

Spoiler

 

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Engage Ch.22

  Hide contents

 

Spoiler

Wait, hold on. Doesn't she and Alear talk while in that weird astral plane thing? Isn't basically how every other brainwash break happens? Character talks to the brainwashed one and the brainwashed one breaks the brainwashing themselves thanks to the talk. So Engage isn't doing it that different at all!

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Armagon]

16 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

  Hide contents

Wait, hold on. Doesn't she and Alear talk while in that weird astral plane thing? Isn't basically how every other brainwash break happens? Character talks to the brainwashed one and the brainwashed one breaks the brainwashing themselves thanks to the talk. So Engage isn't doing it that different at all!

 

Spoiler

I used brainwashed as a simple term but it was more of a dual personality type thing. Evil Veyle was in full control of her own powers, but good Veyle took it back. Compare to like, Evil Julia, who isn't actually evil, she's just in a trance.

The "talking" in execution was different too since it's not like Alear had to "get through" to Veyle. Merely speaking to the other mind in the body.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

14 minutes ago, Armagon said:

  Hide contents

I used brainwashed as a simple term but it was more of a dual personality type thing. Evil Veyle was in full control of her own powers, but good Veyle took it back. Compare to like, Evil Julia, who isn't actually evil, she's just in a trance.

The "talking" in execution was different too since it's not like Alear had to "get through" to Veyle. Merely speaking to the other mind in the body.

 

Spoiler

Kinda, but the way the spell is explained, it's not a dual personality type of thing. Just Veyle having her inner desires (like pleasing daddy "dearest") and nature as a Fell Dragon cranked up to eleven.

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Eltosian Kadath]

6 hours ago, GuardianSing said:

Well now I have to play Genealogy just to figure out what this is about.

Lol, the FE4 Thread was the old chat thread, before the Tee Hee thread basically supplanted it, and with tags like that, I am guessing it was a lot like this place is back in its heyday. I legitimately don't know how Tee Hee transitioned from a more normal forum game into the chat thread it is today...

But it is going to be fun seeing you stumble through all the oddities and quirks of FE4, together with its far more political story.

[Armagon]

20 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Kinda, but the way the spell is explained, it's not a dual personality type of thing. Just Veyle having her inner desires (like pleasing daddy "dearest") and nature as a Fell Dragon cranked up to eleven.

 

Close enough.

6 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

. I legitimately don't know how Tee Hee transitioned from a more normal forum game into the chat thread it is today...

What happened was that the original Last to Post thread started imploding for some reason. Like, days worth of posts would be gone, reduced to atoms. So we migrated towards this one.

[GuardianSing]

Radiant Dawn review. Maybe not my full full thoughts because I'm kind of tired right now.

As mentioned, I prefer it over Radiant Dawn which is the best thing a direct sequel to a story and game can do.

Regarding the plot I imagine there's a bit of a blindspot I'll have because I have not read any of the stuff that apparently it gives you on a second playthrough nor do I speak Japanese to reach the Japanese exclusive material. Removing story content from a first playthrough is a criticism by itself but not one against the quality of the story so whatever I may say about the plot could be wrong if various details are left in the new game+

Generally, I think this game approaches worldbuilding dynamics in a far more interesting way than most other FE or even RPG fantasy games tend to do. The worldbuilding is more about politics and the societies within those politics rather than abstract information about divinity or magic. The existence of each of the countries, their histories and domestic affairs directly influence their significance to the story in a way that made me want to learn about each of these countries individually. 

Thing about this game is that it would've been very easy to make the plot as simple as "Begnion declares war against the Laguz countries. The Laguz make an alliance together. Ike comes in and beats the Dark god that the senators revived because of their evilness." A plot in which the events of the previous game effectively would've had no relevance.

Instead, the plot of Radiant Dawn is one of cause and effect, not just from events within the main story but also events of the previous game. The story of Daein becoming independent is significant and the actions of the Begnion council in PoR were the seeds of the main conflict between Begnion and the Allies. The politics of the Senators and the apostle and how that all interactions with every thing else was what kept me invested.

The ending, though presenting in a traditional Fire Emblem way, is much more interesting and unique to me as well. The gods are presented as ideas, actions, and instincts. They are described as order and chaos, restriction and freedom, old and new. Tellius has always been about racism and discrimination and they concluded that with a war between the two fundamental viewpoints surrounding discrimination, a desire for order and a desire for justice.

The Goddess of order imposes peace for 1000 years to guarantee that the people can stay alive, and should they stray, they shall die. But this peace is shown to be rife with horror and atrocity, things done to "keep order" and any attempt to stop it being threatened by the cause of full scale war. But authority does not care by itself if there is justice, just so long as there is order. Chaos is shown to being a direct counter to that, and surprisingly, it is with Chaos that the heroes side with. Chaos in this sense does not care for order and stability if that order is at the cost of so many people's lives. It is pragmatic for an authoritarian to discriminate and cause suffering if it's in service to that authority. Elincia's order and stability would've benefited had she been harsh on Daein after the war, Sanaki's order and stability would've benefited had she just let the senate do what it wanted, and by choosing justice over order they both risk their entire rule by causing a Civil War.

Generally that is the theme I see in the story of this game. Perhaps it is deeper than what the writers intended but it is my interpretation.

Also I like the way the men are drawn and written. I like pretty boys. I like that there are some male characters placed in explicit roles of vulnerability and passiveness which is something that games before and since never do like ever.

There are a few problems I have with the story, namely that the Laguz race allegory are presented as being fundamentally different from "regular humans" or Beorc. In fact this is the one part of the both Tellius games I think I would actively encourage a change for. The Laguz being an animal race only effects the plot line in that some characters may be older than others and also we needed Laguz enemy units for certain maps so "Feral ones" are apart of the story. Things that honestly are not important enough to outweigh the benefit of getting rid of the animal people element entirely.

There is indeed the blood pact and the retcon surrounding it, which while annoying, I still feel as though the story handles interestingly enough that it didn't actively deteriorate the story for me as the contested nature around the race allegory did.

The gameplay I have mixed feelings about. I imagine that Radiant Dawn is the type of game where it's very fun on a first playthrough, but becomes stagnant on a second. Lots of FE games have a linear progression path with one single army that grows and expands, and for that reason the developers have to account for the fact that they can't always predict the player's team and the builds within that team.

However Radiant Dawn didn't have much team or unit building, and instead gave you three armies with maps that were built around the composition of those armies. For that reason many of the maps early to mid game feel very fined tone and fitting with your team. But it's also for that reason that any following playthroughs may feel same-y and boring. There are only so many units you can exclude for most of the game.

Though that's only a theory I suppose. All and all I really enjoyed the game for what it was, even if the maps quickly fell apart in the late game.

So...yeah. I'm sure I have more thoughts that I'll splurge randomly when I feel like it.

On 12/14/2023 at 11:12 AM, Saint Rubenio said:

Poor Reyson... And poor Rafiel, considering this move would later cause him to lose a leg.

A tragedy. T'was far from the way I expected Rafiel to lose his ability to walk straight.

On 12/14/2023 at 6:31 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

...Oh.

 

I mean, yeah lots of plot, but I don't recall the individual battles being very long. Short even.

To be fair, the first two and half hours of that was me managing inventory stuff before starting which in itself was interrupted by me forgetting to save something and losing tons of progress and also me having to return to my real life to clean up a mess my cat had made.

On 12/14/2023 at 8:11 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

You made things so much harder on yourself by being aggressive. The tower is really stupid, in that the differently patterned tiles are actually different terrain, and the two tiles Ike and the BK start on are some nonsense tiles that give +10 defense for unknown reasons, so if you had waited for him to come to you, instead of going to attack him yourself it would have been far easier...

 

Oh...yeah I forgot terrain effects where a thing.

I'm a real "if I don't see it then it's not real!" kind of guy when it comes to that.

On 12/14/2023 at 8:11 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

That was a lot more romantic than I expected from these two.

On 12/14/2023 at 8:11 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Oh wow, Mia is a lot more receptive to Heather's charms than I remember Nephene being on my first RD run...god I feel old, I was so young back then, and Radiant Dawn brand new...

I tried looking for ship art but alas, game is far too niche to have much.

On 12/14/2023 at 8:11 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Time for me to drop the uncensored funny Oliver battle quote

I guess I can add a few others that are amusing

Add to that the funniest one from his join chapter

And that is all before getting to his multiple very specific supports, which can be really gay...for example

I love all of this.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

17 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Lol, the FE4 Thread was the old chat thread, before the Tee Hee thread basically supplanted it, and with tags like that, I am guessing it was a lot like this place is back in its heyday. I legitimately don't know how Tee Hee transitioned from a more normal forum game into the chat thread it is today...

But it is going to be fun seeing you stumble through all the oddities and quirks of FE4, together with its far more political story.

That one seems to be more of a joke thread of the actual FE4Thread, honestly. The people who used to post for FE4Thread have long moved to the Discord, or just left SF altogether. I posted there enough, but I wasn't really fully part of their community, as it were.

Though yes, I agree it's a big piece of the forum's history. Not just the thread, there's also... The Folder.

[Interdimensional Observer]

43 minutes ago, GuardianSing said:

Also I like the way the men are drawn and written. I like pretty boys. I like that there are some male characters placed in explicit roles of vulnerability and passiveness which is something that games before and since never do like ever.

On the women's side, I do like that Radiant Dawn ends with all three Beorc countries having female rulers.

45 minutes ago, GuardianSing said:

The Goddess of order imposes peace for 1000 years to guarantee that the people can stay alive, and should they stray, they shall die. But this peace is shown to be rife with horror and atrocity, things done to "keep order" and any attempt to stop it being threatened by the cause of full scale war. But authority does not care by itself if there is justice, just so long as there is order. Chaos is shown to being a direct counter to that, and surprisingly, it is with Chaos that the heroes side with. Chaos in this sense does not care for order and stability if that order is at the cost of so many people's lives. It is pragmatic for an authoritarian to discriminate and cause suffering if it's in service to that authority. Elincia's order and stability would've benefited had she been harsh on Daein after the war, Sanaki's order and stability would've benefited had she just let the senate do what it wanted, and by choosing justice over order they both risk their entire rule by causing a Civil War.

I feel like you could also throw Dheginsea in here. 

Although, Dheg's decision for total nonintervention I find has one little problem. He seems to have hoped that once Ashera allowed Yune back into her after 1000 years had passed, that the restored Goddess of Dawn would be able to resolve any existing injustice.

-Why did Ashunera undergo internal divide that eventually culminated in physical divide and a deluge, however? The answer seems to be she couldn't resolve racial tensions. If racism broke the goddess, how, oh Black Dragon King, could you naively think she'd be able to fix it once restored? 

This in itself is point that seems... tragically funny??? Not even a mythic being can humanely resolve the issue of racial division/tension/conflict.

54 minutes ago, GuardianSing said:

Laguz race allegory are presented as being fundamentally different from "regular humans" or Beorc.

You're not the only one to make this criticism for sure.

Japanese fantasy games usually resort to fantasy races b/c they aren't so bold/serious/confidently-informed as to do without the protective, diluting, fantastical veneer.

If you wanted something with a little less facade... maybe Valkyria Chronicles? The Darcsen are loosely a Jewish fictional substitute, or perhaps Roma, the Darcsen don't possess enough specific borrowings to clearly define them as either of the two long-persecuted groups of Europe.

44 minutes ago, GuardianSing said:

I love all of this.

I'd also like to cite a few other Part 4 Endgame conversations.: 

Sanaki vs Hetzel

Sanaki: Hetzel… I had thought that you alone might be above Lekain’s foul conspiracy! It saddens me to see you at his side.
Hetzel: N-no, Apostle Sanaki! I–
Sanaki: I didn’t ask for excuses! You fight alongside Lekain. That’s more proof than I’ll ever need.
Hetzel: …You are right, I fight with him. I had no choice. But…please, understand that I’ve always done my best to honor and respect Your Majesty.
Sanaki: Then how do you explain my confinement in Mainal Cathedral?
Hetzel: I-I didn’t do anything! It was all Lekain! I didn’t know anything about it, and only heard later…
Sanaki: And when you did hear of it, why didn’t you stop it?
Hetzel: I…couldn’t. Actually, I could have, but I…didn’t say anything. It was the same with Misaha, and the Serenes Massacre… I…
Sanaki: …didn’t say anything. In other words, you stood by as my grandmother and the Serenes people were killed!
Hetzel: P-please forgive me…

-An unused piece of dialogue suggests they were considering allowing you to spare Hetzel at one point. Presumably he would've faced his judgement off screen after the ending.

Haar vs Lekain

Haar: Why is it that authority figures are always so unwilling to let go of their power? The world could flip upside down and you’d be trying to boss around gravity.
Lekain: You clearly know nothing of me, lout! To oppose me is to oppose the goddess Ashera herself!
Haar: That’s strange… I always thought that role was filled by the apostle. But who can keep up these days? So you’re defending the goddess… but will she do the same for you?

-A somewhat-beloved exchange.

Astrid vs Lekain

Astrid: Lord Lekain…
Lekain: Hm? You… You are from House Damiell…
Astrid: Yes, I am. It’s been a while, but I didn’t think you’d forget me quite so easily. I wasn’t sure at the time, but marrying you would have been the biggest mistake of my life.
Lekain: Ha! Bold talk from a penniless mercenary! You were never worthy of Lekain of Gaddos, head of the senators and chosen by the goddess herself!

-An unexpected revelation. But, her Sothe support in PoR had this line: Astrid: My parents have already chosen and arranged a fiance for me. I’ve heard he is thirty years older than me.

Haar vs Levail

Levail: Captain Haar! You are still alive!
Haar: What happened that you didn’t expect me to survive?
Levail: Um… Nothing, I suppose. It’s just that it’s been a while since you left Begnion.
Haar: Yeah. Twenty years ago, wasn’t it?
Levail: I was still very young at the time. You had just been dubbed a knight. Oh, it brings back such memories… The bravery of the dracoknights, especially the Fizzart Platoon. It was legendary among the soldiers. But then you suddenly defected to Daein.
Haar: I got sick of taking orders from corrupt senators, so I ditched the country with General Shiharam.
Levail: I joined the army after I came of age. But it was different after you all left. It was as if you took its spirit with you. The only exception was General Zelgius, the general of Duke Persis’s army.
Haar: I see. Is that why you’re under his command?
Levail: Yes. He is the last true knight. I will die for him.
Haar: Yes, Levail. You will.
Levail: How I dreamed of fighting a proper foe! I am honored, Sir Haar! Have at you!

Haar vs Sephiran

Haar: We never spent much time together when I was in Begnion. But, Sephiran… I think I know you pretty well.
Sephiran: I haven’t forgotten you, Haar. Shiharam’s hotshot young protege. You were both exemplary soldiers. Your defection from the Begnion dracoknights was a huge loss.
Haar: Hmmm… Sort of like the huge loss when the senators managed to defeat all those great changes you proposed?
Sephiran: …
Haar: I suppose if any of those changes had happened, we wouldn’t be here now. Am I wrong?
Sephiran: An interesting question… I’m honestly not sure, but that’s all I can say about that.
Haar: Too bad. For you, and for me.

More Haar goodness. With a curious mention of politics tossed into the latter.

Nailah vs Dheginsea

Dheginsea: You… are of the wolf people?
Nailah: Yes. After the floods, we built our country to the east of the great desert.
Dheginsea: …So we weren’t the only ones to survive…
Nailah: Until we met Rafiel, we too thought ours were the only people left.
Dheginsea: In your country, are there only people of the wolf tribe?
Nailah: No, beorc live there, as well. There are also a number of what you call the “parentless.”
Children born of both laguz and beorc parents are still relatively few.. but they live normally among us.
Dheginsea: Is that so?
Nailah: That’s probably enough chatting. Do you still intend to block our path?
Dheginsea: …I will not deny my goddess.
Nailah: And I won’t deny my conscience. I will revive those turned to stone, and you cannot stop me.

Unexpected touch of world-building for Hatari.

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

On the women's side, I do like that Radiant Dawn ends with all three Beorc countries having female rulers.

Hmm, I wonder.

Since barring Nailah, the Laguz instead end up with males rulers. The Children of Wisdom having female rulers. The Children of Strength having male rulers. Still feels a bit stereotyped.

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

I feel like you could also throw Dheginsea in here. 

Although, Dheg's decision for total nonintervention I find has one little problem. He seems to have hoped that once Ashera allowed Yune back into her after 1000 years had passed, that the restored Goddess of Dawn would be able to resolve any existing injustice.

-Why did Ashunera undergo internal divide that eventually culminated in physical divide and a deluge, however? The answer seems to be she couldn't resolve racial tensions. If racism broke the goddess, how, oh Black Dragon King, could you naively think she'd be able to fix it once restored? 

This in itself is point that seems... tragically funny??? Not even a mythic being can humanely resolve the issue of racial division/tension/conflict.

It seems the idea was that after a thousand years of not being at each other's throats was a sign the problem could resolve itself without the Goddess being around. So it'd be a non-issue for Ashunera once she returned, as the problem would be long gone.

To be fair, the Beorc and Laguz are not her creations, technically. It was the Zunanma, who then became the Beorc and Laguz. So it's a problem that surged from something she would not have much experience with.

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

-An unused piece of dialogue suggests they were considering allowing you to spare Hetzel at one point. Presumably he would've faced his judgement off screen after the ending.

It's outright stated in the unused dialogue actually. Sanaki orders Hetzel to wait there and that he will face judgement once they come back.

[Interdimensional Observer]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Hmm, I wonder.

Since barring Nailah, the Laguz instead end up with males rulers. The Children of Wisdom having female rulers. The Children of Strength having male rulers. Still feels a bit stereotyped.

A little, maybe. But I never really remembered the old racial nicknames during the credits. And, Elincia, Sanaki, and Micaiah proved themselves as monarchs? -Okay two of them got it from lineage, but then they showed themselves as proof -for now- that genealogy ain't a terrible idea for choosing leadership.

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It seems the idea was that after a thousand years of not being at each other's throats was a sign the problem could resolve itself without the Goddess being around. So it'd be a non-issue for Ashunera once she returned, as the problem would be long gone.

And perhaps implying that if the Goddess had to remain awake, Stoner Sunlight was the only true path?

Also...

Ashera:
“However, during this thousand years, if one tribe bathes in glory while the other suffers oppression, or if the chaos of war never ceases… I will know that you have strayed from your path, and I will punish your failure as I would reward your success. And then you will know my judgment. You will pay for your sins, each of you to the last. Both tribes will be erased from this world.”

the Extended Script suggests Dheg's permission of slavery b/c it avoided a great war was itself a doomed path?

10 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It's outright stated in the unused dialogue actually. Sanaki orders Hetzel to wait there and that he will face judgement once they come back.

I do think it would've been a fine idea. I get video games have to have you kill most villains in battle b/c otherwise Edgeworth would be seriously overworked. But it would've been kinda different, and not in a bad way. Extrajudicial death sentences isn't how we deal with most bad people nowadays (-I know, fiction, fantasy). Hetzel didn't have Lekain's outward evilness and stubbornness, sparing him from the fatal justice of the battlefield and leaving the legal system to peacefully mete out his punishment seems feasible and appropriate. (Ludveck presumably met the same fate of going through whatever medieval legal system Crimea had, but his ultimate fate was abruptly brushed aside as soon as Ike showed up.)

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

A little, maybe. But I never really remembered the old racial nicknames during the credits. And, Elincia, Sanaki, and Micaiah proved themselves as monarchs? -Okay two of them got it from lineage, but then they showed themselves as proof -for now- that genealogy ain't a terrible idea for choosing leadership.

That's true. Still, it was still a conscious decision by the developers, so... who knows.

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

And perhaps implying that if the Goddess had to remain awake, Stoner Sunlight was the only true path?

Also...

Ashera:
“However, during this thousand years, if one tribe bathes in glory while the other suffers oppression, or if the chaos of war never ceases… I will know that you have strayed from your path, and I will punish your failure as I would reward your success. And then you will know my judgment. You will pay for your sins, each of you to the last. Both tribes will be erased from this world.”

the Extended Script suggests Dheg's permission of slavery b/c it avoided a great war was itself a doomed path?

Sounds like it. Makes sense, since Dheginsea is, ultimately, as flawed as the rest of them.

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

I do think it would've been a fine idea. I get video games have to have you kill most villains in battle b/c otherwise Edgeworth would be seriously overworked. But it would've been kinda different, and not in a bad way. Extrajudicial death sentences isn't how we deal with most bad people nowadays (-I know, fiction, fantasy). Hetzel didn't have Lekain's outward evilness and stubbornness, sparing him from the fatal justice of the battlefield and leaving the legal system to peacefully mete out his punishment seems feasible and appropriate. (Ludveck presumably met the same fate of going through whatever medieval legal system Crimea had, but his ultimate fate was abruptly brushed aside as soon as Ike showed up.)

True. Might even be the reason why he was originally spare-able to begin with.

Good point. I do wonder what ultimately became of Ludveck. Keeping him alive is the reason the whole Lucia incident happened, after all. So what did Elincia did after that, I wonder...

[Codename Shrimp]

All that XCX talk reminds me that i should be able to emulate it now 🤔

[Saint Rubenio]

11 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I saw that, but I felt I didn't even need that to get your point.😜

I figured, but still. You can tell from their first scene together, and then they proceed to keep hammering the point home in every other scene they have.

Like, seriously, they have a lovers' quarrel later and everything. It's amazing.

7 hours ago, GuardianSing said:

Radiant Dawn review. Maybe not my full full thoughts because I'm kind of tired right now.

As mentioned, I prefer it over Radiant Dawn which is the best thing a direct sequel to a story and game can do.

Regarding the plot I imagine there's a bit of a blindspot I'll have because I have not read any of the stuff that apparently it gives you on a second playthrough nor do I speak Japanese to reach the Japanese exclusive material. Removing story content from a first playthrough is a criticism by itself but not one against the quality of the story so whatever I may say about the plot could be wrong if various details are left in the new game+

Generally, I think this game approaches worldbuilding dynamics in a far more interesting way than most other FE or even RPG fantasy games tend to do. The worldbuilding is more about politics and the societies within those politics rather than abstract information about divinity or magic. The existence of each of the countries, their histories and domestic affairs directly influence their significance to the story in a way that made me want to learn about each of these countries individually. 

Thing about this game is that it would've been very easy to make the plot as simple as "Begnion declares war against the Laguz countries. The Laguz make an alliance together. Ike comes in and beats the Dark god that the senators revived because of their evilness." A plot in which the events of the previous game effectively would've had no relevance.

Instead, the plot of Radiant Dawn is one of cause and effect, not just from events within the main story but also events of the previous game. The story of Daein becoming independent is significant and the actions of the Begnion council in PoR were the seeds of the main conflict between Begnion and the Allies. The politics of the Senators and the apostle and how that all interactions with every thing else was what kept me invested.

The ending, though presenting in a traditional Fire Emblem way, is much more interesting and unique to me as well. The gods are presented as ideas, actions, and instincts. They are described as order and chaos, restriction and freedom, old and new. Tellius has always been about racism and discrimination and they concluded that with a war between the two fundamental viewpoints surrounding discrimination, a desire for order and a desire for justice.

The Goddess of order imposes peace for 1000 years to guarantee that the people can stay alive, and should they stray, they shall die. But this peace is shown to be rife with horror and atrocity, things done to "keep order" and any attempt to stop it being threatened by the cause of full scale war. But authority does not care by itself if there is justice, just so long as there is order. Chaos is shown to being a direct counter to that, and surprisingly, it is with Chaos that the heroes side with. Chaos in this sense does not care for order and stability if that order is at the cost of so many people's lives. It is pragmatic for an authoritarian to discriminate and cause suffering if it's in service to that authority. Elincia's order and stability would've benefited had she been harsh on Daein after the war, Sanaki's order and stability would've benefited had she just let the senate do what it wanted, and by choosing justice over order they both risk their entire rule by causing a Civil War.

Generally that is the theme I see in the story of this game. Perhaps it is deeper than what the writers intended but it is my interpretation.

Also I like the way the men are drawn and written. I like pretty boys. I like that there are some male characters placed in explicit roles of vulnerability and passiveness which is something that games before and since never do like ever.

There are a few problems I have with the story, namely that the Laguz race allegory are presented as being fundamentally different from "regular humans" or Beorc. In fact this is the one part of the both Tellius games I think I would actively encourage a change for. The Laguz being an animal race only effects the plot line in that some characters may be older than others and also we needed Laguz enemy units for certain maps so "Feral ones" are apart of the story. Things that honestly are not important enough to outweigh the benefit of getting rid of the animal people element entirely.

There is indeed the blood pact and the retcon surrounding it, which while annoying, I still feel as though the story handles interestingly enough that it didn't actively deteriorate the story for me as the contested nature around the race allegory did.

The gameplay I have mixed feelings about. I imagine that Radiant Dawn is the type of game where it's very fun on a first playthrough, but becomes stagnant on a second. Lots of FE games have a linear progression path with one single army that grows and expands, and for that reason the developers have to account for the fact that they can't always predict the player's team and the builds within that team.

However Radiant Dawn didn't have much team or unit building, and instead gave you three armies with maps that were built around the composition of those armies. For that reason many of the maps early to mid game feel very fined tone and fitting with your team. But it's also for that reason that any following playthroughs may feel same-y and boring. There are only so many units you can exclude for most of the game.

Though that's only a theory I suppose. All and all I really enjoyed the game for what it was, even if the maps quickly fell apart in the late game.

So...yeah. I'm sure I have more thoughts that I'll splurge randomly when I feel like it.

You make some really good points about the story. It certainly is one of the best stories in the series, despite the blood pact. I just wish... Well, as you put it, that the maps didn't quickly fall apart in the lategame lol

There's still a bit of replayability in sparing Pelleas and getting the secret character, but overall, there's less replayability here than in other games of the series, due to its structure. Though, on the other hand, Vestaria 2 has a somewhat similar structure and I find it has loads more replayability due to a lot of mutually exclusive choices and alternate events thoughout the game, so perhaps the structure itself isn't necessarily the issue.

If you're curious, the secret character is

Spoiler

Sephiran. If you fulfill a series of extremely convoluted steps that I couldn't care to learn, you can get him. He's the second dark mage in the game, after Pelleas. He joins... well, after he's battled in the game, so he has exactly one map of availability. Which is only slightly better than Pelleas, mind, he also joins in part 4.

Honestly, the entire part 4 gang just gets massively screwed over. What even is the point of the whole Renning thing? He does nothing in either story or gameplay! And Bastian gets wasted yet again despite being the coolest dude.

 

7 hours ago, GuardianSing said:

A tragedy. T'was far from the way I expected Rafiel to lose his ability to walk straight.

Hah!

7 hours ago, GuardianSing said:

I love all of this.

RD Oliver is one of the funniest ideas IntSys ever had. I'm so happy he's a thing.

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Nailah vs Dheginsea

Dheginsea: You… are of the wolf people?
Nailah: Yes. After the floods, we built our country to the east of the great desert.
Dheginsea: …So we weren’t the only ones to survive…
Nailah: Until we met Rafiel, we too thought ours were the only people left.
Dheginsea: In your country, are there only people of the wolf tribe?
Nailah: No, beorc live there, as well. There are also a number of what you call the “parentless.”
Children born of both laguz and beorc parents are still relatively few.. but they live normally among us.
Dheginsea: Is that so?
Nailah: That’s probably enough chatting. Do you still intend to block our path?
Dheginsea: …I will not deny my goddess.
Nailah: And I won’t deny my conscience. I will revive those turned to stone, and you cannot stop me.

Unexpected touch of world-building for Hatari.

Nailah out there proving she's not just a cool design. She really said "fuck your biases."

[Lightcosmo]

39 minutes ago, Shrimpy -Limited Edition- said:

All that XCX talk reminds me that i should be able to emulate it now 🤔

Just remember that the storyline gold mine lies in sidequests and not the main storyline! Xd

[BrightBow]

28 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Honestly, the entire part 4 gang just gets massively screwed over. What even is the point of the whole Renning thing? He does nothing in either story or gameplay! And Bastian gets wasted yet again despite being the coolest dude.

Just another generic Knight. Not like he is even needed as a replacement. At least one would think that if the player can fill 3 different parties for part 4, they will end up with more than enough people alive to fill a single army for the endgame.

They could at least make his stats super high to actually suit his reputation. Considering they also give you Caineghis and Giffca for free, they might as well give you a Beorc unit with a capped stat or two.
Of course ideally he would be someone genuinely fun and interesting like Paramythis. Instead he is just an Alvina. And so are all the other part 4 units.

Spoiler

But the Pelleas thing is honestly really hilarious. Not only are mages already underpowered as all hell, but he also joins at tier 2 during Part 4, only getting access to the two worst types of magic in the game. And it's not like powering him up will result in something unique. No special Spirit Charmer powers in tier 3 or anything.
He is so weak that you'd think he'd be meant to be used for something during the remainder of the game. To unlock the Ashunera ending or whatever. But nope.

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by BrightBow

[Lightcosmo]

Renning DOES have the flag to allow him to equip Amiti, though! Too bad the devs were too stupid and didnt realise that it couldnt be traded to him lol

Edited December 18, 2023 by Lightcosmo

[BrightBow]

Ena and Kurth are so weak, it surprises me that they cannot just ignore defense entirely, like in good old FE3.

Funny to think that they are worse than FE3 Bantu.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Nailah out there proving she's not just a cool design. She really said "fuck your biases."

Nailah vs Sephiran

Nailah: Who would’ve guessed that a madman on the other side of the desert would somehow threaten Hatari?
Sephiran: Hatari. I’m sorry I didn’t get a chance to see it. The wolf tribe has survived all this time in the far corner of the world. Only the goddess could have known that.
Nailah: Perhaps even she didn’t know it. Your goddess isn’t perfect, you know. Does an imperfect goddess have the right to judge imperfect beings?
Sephiran: I see your point. Does the creator retain the right to destroy her creations when they are no longer what she envisioned? I imagine we could discuss this sometime… if only we had more time. I believe you alone might be able to sway my opinion on this, Lady Nailah, Queen of Wolves.
Nailah: You have too many opinions. I’m done talking.

I underlined the last line, because maybe it's just me, but it looks like Internet-ready meme material.😄 If only it was presented in an easy single-screenshotable form.

And I just love the fact Sephiran is making it sound like he wants to have a casual intellectual discussion with Nailah after this. -I mean sure, the cynic in me says he's merely trying to buy time in hopes maybe the second judgement will get shot off as they fight. But, at the same time, maybe he isn't.😆

Sephiran I do think is a little unusual as an FE villain, in that he does genuinely harbor regret for what he's doing, and leave open the door to the possibility of deviating from his evil path (whilst not being a Camus).

Spoiler

Without which, 2nd playthrough recruitment couldn't be possible obviously.

Yet even so I find this unique. -But then, Sephiran is one of my absolute favorite Fire Emblem characters.😅 (While not quite in the matrix/void between realms, Sephiran has spent much of his existence aloof from yet deeply interested in the mundane world, which makes him one of the inspirations behind the name I use on this site.)

1 hour ago, Saint Rubenio said:

If you fulfill a series of extremely convoluted steps that I couldn't care to learn

"Convoluted" is a matter of perspective. By SRW standards for secret characters/units, it'd be fairly ordinary.😛

Edited December 18, 2023 by Interdimensional Observer

[Saint Rubenio]

1 hour ago, BrightBow said:

Just another generic Knight. Not like he is even needed as a replacement. At least one would think that if the player can fill 3 different parties for part 4, they will end up with more than enough people alive to fill a single army for the endgame.

They could at least make his stats super high to actually suit his reputation. Considering they also give you Caineghis and Giffca for free, they might as well give you a Beorc unit with a capped stat or two.
Of course ideally he would be someone genuinely fun and interesting like Paramythis. Instead he is just an Alvina. And so are all the other part 4 units.

It really is kinda silly how badly he gets screwed over. The laguz royals could decimate the game by themselves. Tibarn even gets pseudo main character benefits and a free slot in the endgame. Meanwhile Renning's just... a guy. Remember the bossman from PoR? Here he is, he's good now, he brought Volke and Bastian with him. Throw the lot of them in the bench at your leisure because they're all worthless.

1 hour ago, BrightBow said:

 

  Hide contents

But the Pelleas thing is honestly really hilarious. Not only are mages already underpowered as all hell, but he also joins at tier 2 during Part 4, only getting access to the two worst types of magic in the game. And it's not like powering him up will result in something unique. No special Spirit Charmer powers in tier 3 or anything.
He is so weak that you'd think he'd be meant to be used for something during the remainder of the game. To unlock the Ashunera ending or whatever. But nope.

 

Let's not kid ourselves, you spare him to see his amazing battle convos and so that Almedha gets to be happy for a bit. You do not get him because he's a good unit. Part 4 of RD is such a hodgepodge...

1 hour ago, Lightcosmo said:

Renning DOES have the flag to allow him to equip Amiti, though! Too bad the devs were too stupid and didnt realise that it couldnt be traded to him lol

Not that it would've meant much even if it could be traded. Considering Elincia is forced and cannot die, wasting a precious endgame slot on Renning just to give him the sword she can use instead would've been super redundant.

17 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Nailah vs Sephiran

Nailah: Who would’ve guessed that a madman on the other side of the desert would somehow threaten Hatari?
Sephiran: Hatari. I’m sorry I didn’t get a chance to see it. The wolf tribe has survived all this time in the far corner of the world. Only the goddess could have known that.
Nailah: Perhaps even she didn’t know it. Your goddess isn’t perfect, you know. Does an imperfect goddess have the right to judge imperfect beings?
Sephiran: I see your point. Does the creator retain the right to destroy her creations when they are no longer what she envisioned? I imagine we could discuss this sometime… if only we had more time. I believe you alone might be able to sway my opinion on this, Lady Nailah, Queen of Wolves.
Nailah: You have too many opinions. I’m done talking.

She really do be like "fuck your goddess and your opinions."

18 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Yet even so I find this unique. -But then, Sephiran is one of my absolute favorite Fire Emblem characters.😅 (While not quite in the matrix/void between realms, Sephiran has spent much of his existence aloof from yet deeply interested in the mundane world, which makes him one of the inspirations behind the name I use on this site.)

I see. That's pretty neat. I can see why you'd see him that way.

18 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

"Convoluted" is a matter of perspective. By SRW standards for secret characters/units, it'd be fairly ordinary.😛

Well...

[Interdimensional Observer]

17 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Not that it would've meant much even if it could be traded. Considering Elincia is forced and cannot die, wasting a precious endgame slot on Renning just to give him the sword she can use instead would've been super redundant.

In Part 4 Endgame? She isn't. Sanaki is, but Elincia is not. Elincia has no personal connections to anyone in the tower. Sanaki has to go for Lekain, and for confronting her great*30-something granddaddy, who kinda raised her like a dad.

17 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Well...

The requirements in RD are:

1. 2nd Playthrough or beyond.
2. Deploy the Black Knight in Part 1 Endgame.
3. In 3-7, have Ike fight the Black Knight, the Black Knight must not be defeated on this map.

RD was released in the US in November 2007, SRWOG2 released in the US in November 2006. 

Vaisaga

- Note: Can only be done on a second playthrough. - In scenario 10 on the Earth route, or scenario 13 on the Moon route, Echidna must be shot down, or forced to retreat. Lamia must then move to the square that Echidna was on right before she retreated. Note that you'll recieve no indication if you did this step correctly or not. - Lamia must have 1, and only 1, battle encounter with Axel during scenario 19. [2 encounters gets you the Ash Saber instead, 0 or 3 or more gets you nothing.] - Lamia must have at least 55 kills by the end of scenario 24. - If you've fulfilled the requirements, then Lamia will sortie in it during scenario 28.

Not all that different, ain't it?😄 -Sure I found out about both secrets online as a kiddo, but I wasn't arguing about the obscurity of the requirements, just the tedium/stringency/sheer number of steps the secrets have. Three fairly simple steps for RD ain't all that much.😛

Edited December 18, 2023 by Interdimensional Observer