So what were your overall opinions about Engage?

[Etrurian emperor]

In general I don't like multiverse so Xenologue focusing on it wasn't exactly welcome.

That said. The alternative royals? Very nicely done! Evil Fodado, evil Alcryst and ruthless Celine especially standing out. With Celine especially it helps that her evil counterpart relies on traits that are already present in the real one. 

[DefyingFates]

On 8/30/2023 at 1:48 PM, Barren said:

While I forgot which twitter user it was, but someone tweeted that the director of the game said that the game didn’t reach the heights they thought it could, felt that it was disappointing. And one of the directors Kenta Naganishi said that he plans on making the next game to be “less anime”

If you can find a source for this I'd love to read both of their messages in full! So from that second part I take it FE18's going to pull a Final Fantasy XVI?

On 8/30/2023 at 9:46 PM, Saint Rubenio said:

Still, there's no denying that I felt its impact on my replay. I definitely would prefer if hubs like Somniel and Monastery just went away for good - or, at the very least, let it be an option to do all the tasks (all of them) in a simple menu that doesn't waste my time as much. It would significantly improve the replayability of these games if 75% of the playtime wasn't spent waiting for the game to load or running around doing menial, repetitive tasks.

I agree. I'm glad IS has kept the "explorable base" idea from Three Houses because it's fun to see what everyone does in their off time and talk to them, so I'm going to be controversial and hope the base comes back... BUT it would be so much more enjoyable if you could do all the chores via a menu. Like Three Houses' weekly assignments for example, or Hopes' training. Most of the Somniel stuff you can skip for the most part at least... unless you want to get Bond Levels/ Rings in which case you need to spend ages fishing.

Or heck, just copy the assignment system from games like Genshin and Honkai Star Rail and put all the various tasks that need to be done in a single menu. Set someone to fish, another person to cook* and so on at the end of one chapter and claim the benefits at the start of the next.

* ...actually, cooking's the one thing I wouldn't mind staying the same just because it's fun to see people react to dishes too.

On 8/31/2023 at 2:41 AM, Florete said:

Take the FOMO out of it and it's fine.

Also this. While I'm sure some people would be mad that "Fire Emblem is meant to be serious", if the mini games were just mini games you could play for fun with no rewards attached I don't think the Somniel (or Garreg Mach for that matter) would be criticized as much.

On 9/1/2023 at 1:22 PM, Xander said:

Probably been discussed to death already but since I just got the game and finished less than a month ago, have we discussed ideas on how to fix (or at least salvage) the story?

For what it's worth, the manga seems to be taking the premise of Engage and fleshing it out more. For starters, Lumera doesn't die in the CH 3 equivalent and there's no Time Crystal. It's also added a bunch of minor villains along the way. Time will tell how good the adaptation will be by the end, but I'm curious if people will appreciate that version of the story more. I'm personally hoping the villains get their backstory fleshed out earlier than in the game, since they at least have backstories worth mentioning compared to TWSITD whose backstory, motivation and personality began and ended with "we hate living underground". And of course Sombron and the Hounds are better than the various 3DS villains by default.

On 9/1/2023 at 9:34 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

but to me Engage's story was enjoyable almost from start to finish.

Just to inject some extra positivity here (not to diminish others' points of course), but this is how I felt. It wasn't a masterpiece by any means, but it wasn't terrible either. I had fun with it, and I particularly liked the final act. I wish the rest of the story had been as involved as that, if nothing else.

On 9/7/2023 at 7:13 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

That said. The alternative royals? Very nicely done! Evil Fodado, evil Alcryst and ruthless Celine especially standing out. With Celine especially it helps that her evil counterpart relies on traits that are already present in the real one. 

Finally, someone else who sees that! I'd argue Fogado, Alcryst and Ivy were the only ones who actually changed. The other Royals feel the same as ours, just put in far worse circumstances. To use your example, I think our Celine would absolutely do the stuff her FX counterpart does if she went through the same ordeals.

---

I said this early on in the thread, but my takeaway was "story is fine, gameplay is amazing". This is the anniversary so I was fine with the plot being a back to basics "beat the evil dragon" affair, and I think it's fine to have a light-hearted plot between Three Houses and the rumored FE4 remake. If anything I hope we get a Hopes-style retelling of Engage's plot, just to see if the world and characters can win people over with a second attempt... but of course that probably isn't going to happen given the sales.

As for the mechanics themselves, I too loved how the Emblems worked both in gameplay and in-lore and will be sad to see them go. I liked the flexibility there was in classes despite them being fixed and while I'd like to see a return to 3H's free-for-all, I wouldn't mind keeping the current system if IS was willing to make the classes more malleable (e.g. letting everyone keep their preferred weapon type or staff equippable in any class, albeit at a lower rank. That was an idea I suggested a while back that I'm still fond of).

Edited September 8, 2023 by DefyingFates

[Barren]

39 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

If you can find a source for this I'd love to read both of their messages in full! So from that second part I take it FE18's going to pull a Final Fantasy XVI?

https://x.com/ultimashadowx/status/1696012593826038210?s=46&t=xmOHZGAzSBxvJKAaOHeeLA

 

here is the tweet

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

If you can find a source for this I'd love to read both of their messages in full! So from that second part I take it FE18's going to pull a Final Fantasy XVI?

I agree. I'm glad IS has kept the "explorable base" idea from Three Houses because it's fun to see what everyone does in their off time and talk to them, so I'm going to be controversial and hope the base comes back... BUT it would be so much more enjoyable if you could do all the chores via a menu. Like Three Houses' weekly assignments for example, or Hopes' training. Most of the Somniel stuff you can skip for the most part at least... unless you want to get Bond Levels/ Rings in which case you need to spend ages fishing.

Or heck, just copy the assignment system from games like Genshin and Honkai Star Rail and put all the various tasks that need to be done in a single menu. Set someone to fish, another person to cook* and so on at the end of one chapter and claim the benefits at the start of the next.

* ...actually, cooking's the one thing I wouldn't mind staying the same just because it's fun to see people react to dishes too.

Also this. While I'm sure some people would be mad that "Fire Emblem is meant to be serious", if the mini games were just mini games you could play for fun with no rewards attached I don't think the Somniel (or Garreg Mach for that matter) would be criticized as much.

For what it's worth, the manga seems to be taking the premise of Engage and fleshing it out more. For starters, Lumera doesn't die in the CH 3 equivalent and there's no Time Crystal. It's also added a bunch of minor villains along the way. Time will tell how good the adaptation will be by the end, but I'm curious if people will appreciate that version of the story more. I'm personally hoping the villains get their backstory fleshed out earlier than in the game, since they at least have backstories worth mentioning compared to TWSITD whose backstory, motivation and personality began and ended with "we hate living underground". And of course Sombron and the Hounds are better than the various 3DS villains by default.

Just to inject some extra positivity here (not to diminish others' points of course), but this is how I felt. It wasn't a masterpiece by any means, but it wasn't terrible either. I had fun with it, and I particularly liked the final act. I wish the rest of the story had been as involved as that, if nothing else.

Finally, someone else who sees that! I'd argue Fogado, Alcryst and Ivy were the only ones who actually changed. The other Royals feel the same as ours, just put in far worse circumstances. To use your example, I think our Celine would absolutely do the stuff her FX counterpart does if she went through the same ordeals.

---

I said this early on in the thread, but my takeaway was "story is fine, gameplay is amazing". This is the anniversary so I was fine with the plot being a back to basics "beat the evil dragon" affair, and I think it's fine to have a light-hearted plot between Three Houses and the rumored FE4 remake. If anything I hope we get a Hopes-style retelling of Engage's plot, just to see if the world and characters can win people over with a second attempt... but of course that probably isn't going to happen given the sales.

As for the mechanics themselves, I too loved how the Emblems worked both in gameplay and in-lore and will be sad to see them go. I liked the flexibility there was in classes despite them being fixed and while I'd like to see a return to 3H's free-for-all, I wouldn't mind keeping the current system if IS was willing to make the classes more malleable (e.g. letting everyone keep their preferred weapon type or staff equippable in any class, albeit at a lower rank. That was an idea I suggested a while back that I'm still fond of).

I'm not a major fan of the Sominel or Monastery, but I can say without any hesitation that if we didn't have them, I would absolutely want to see them as a feature. And I still it's a shame the villages in Shadows of Valentia were just a bunch of static sprites in a background instead of fully explorable like in Gaiden.

Really I think the biggest issue people have with the Monastery and Sominel, even if they're not aware it's the prime source of their distaste, is the loading times. Such loading times in this era of gaming are pretty much unacceptable. It's not an issue of console power either, I'd wager, just of talent and will.

[DefyingFates]

6 hours ago, Barren said:

https://x.com/ultimashadowx/status/1696012593826038210?s=46&t=xmOHZGAzSBxvJKAaOHeeLA

 

here is the tweet

That was a joke tweet; check the replies.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm not a major fan of the Sominel or Monastery, but I can say without any hesitation that if we didn't have them, I would absolutely want to see them as a feature. And I still it's a shame the villages in Shadows of Valentia were just a bunch of static sprites in a background instead of fully explorable like in Gaiden.

True. I know someone earlier mentioned the Somniel made no sense, but it being a base in the sky people could warp to and from to recover made plenty of sense to me. It was a much better justification than the Three Houses cast going back and forth from the Monastery to whatever far-flung territory they'd just captured. It sounds like you might prefer the base camp idea from Hopes though? That certainly is a much more mundane solution, even if each of Hopes' bases looked identical...

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Really I think the biggest issue people have with the Monastery and Sominel, even if they're not aware it's the prime source of their distaste, is the loading times. Such loading times in this era of gaming are pretty much unacceptable. It's not an issue of console power either, I'd wager, just of talent and will.

This and traversing menus, I think. You may be onto something!

[Barren]

@DefyingFatesAhh so it was a joke. Makes sense now

[Saint Rubenio]

12 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

I agree. I'm glad IS has kept the "explorable base" idea from Three Houses because it's fun to see what everyone does in their off time and talk to them, so I'm going to be controversial and hope the base comes back... BUT it would be so much more enjoyable if you could do all the chores via a menu. Like Three Houses' weekly assignments for example, or Hopes' training. Most of the Somniel stuff you can skip for the most part at least... unless you want to get Bond Levels/ Rings in which case you need to spend ages fishing.

Or heck, just copy the assignment system from games like Genshin and Honkai Star Rail and put all the various tasks that need to be done in a single menu. Set someone to fish, another person to cook* and so on at the end of one chapter and claim the benefits at the start of the next.

It's all... technically optional, but let's not kid ourselves here - in Houses and Engage both, you miss out on some vital resources if you stop visiting the hub. It's worse in Houses because you straight up can't even do something so basic as recruiting characters without wasting a bunch of time at the monastery, but skill management, forging and even eating for stat boosts are still very important things that you can't do without a visit to the Somniel.

12 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

* ...actually, cooking's the one thing I wouldn't mind staying the same just because it's fun to see people react to dishes too.

Yeah, the first time. Then as you start feeding the same characters, the reactions begin feeling repetitive and it loses its luster and holy Divine Dragon why can't I do this without waiting for the game to load stupid eating scene I've seen a million times

I'm not saying these features should go away (though personally I wouldn't miss them), but a simple, practical menu needs to be an option for those who'd rather get to the combat faster, or for when you get tired of the repetitive activities and just want them out of the way. It's so obvious and it would please everybody, it's baffling that they've gone three games with these hubs and still haven't gotten around to it.

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Really I think the biggest issue people have with the Monastery and Sominel, even if they're not aware it's the prime source of their distaste, is the loading times. Such loading times in this era of gaming are pretty much unacceptable.

100%. I didn't notice it as much on my first run, since I was distracted by the maps actually being good, but in my second run of Engage the loading times felt truly painful, especially since I was playing on Maddening and had to reset maps or return to the Somniel to adjust my builds more often. It hurt my soul every time I thought "hey this or that skill could help for this battle" and it dawned on me that I'd have to once again load the world map, load the Somniel, load the arena and load the required Emblem battle sequences (which are completely pointless, by the way, since it doesn't matter if you win or lose, you might as well just buy the skills directly from the Emblem). I swear a good chunk of the displayed playtime was spent just waiting for things to load.

But at least you only have to visit the Somniel once per chapter, unless you forget something or want to make an adjustment to your builds. In Three Houses the optimal play is to return three or four times per chapter, just performing the same menial tasks over and over to maximize support, weapon rank and professor level gains. Fun.

Again, if there was the option to do everything from a simple menu, this wouldn't be an issue. Wanna visit your pretties at the hub? Good, knock yourself out! Wanna get the boring business out of the way so you can get to the next battle quickly? Also good, just use the menu and you don't have to load and unload models, textures and geometry just to see the same animations for people eating you've seen a hundred times by now.

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's not an issue of console power either, I'd wager, just of talent and will.

I'm currently playing through Lost Eidolons, a game often described as an indie "clone" of Three Houses. That's... partially true, the game doesn't hide its inspiration and the features it draws from that game, but it differs in key areas such as having real map design, difficulty and balance. Still, it has its 3D battles, its hub in the form of camp and its activities you can do with your characters. On that front, a comparison can be drawn.

What I'm getting at is that this is a game made on a tight budget by a small indie studio with exactly zero prior projects in their resume. And it has far, FAR better loading times, performance and graphics. You can like the artstyle less, that's subjective, but it's undeniable that the game looks better, runs better and loads in 10 seconds what these triple-A, Nintendo-backed productions take a goddamned minute. And honestly, that's just really sad, if you ask me. I would argue a part of it is definitely hardware, every game on the Switch feels, to varying degrees, constrained by it if you look close enough; but even by Switch standards these games feel particularly hodgepodge-y. Like, at least Luigi's Mansion 3 made its loading times palatable by letting me goof around an elevator in the meantime.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Saint Rubenio

[Midnox]

Can’t have an opinion as I haven’t played it due to still having three unfinished campaigns in Three Houses, let alone started Three Hopes. But I feel the reception has been lukewarm, as I think Engage has been kinda forgotten. I remember people talking about Three Houses for at least two years.

[MeteorPhoenix]

Yeah, it's quite interesting looking at r/fireemblem. Not quite a dead game, but there's been days where there's zero posts about Engage in the front page.

[Phinius Dolphinius III]

My wife just bought me this game as a birthday present. She's generally anti-video game but knows that I love them and figures that with the birth of our first child coming next week, I won't be able to sit for hours playing (she's not wrong).

 

Anyway, I'm midway through Chapter 4 and I have some early thoughts:

- The Engage stuff is really cool but isn't really explained well from a game mechanic standpoint. Having to wait until Chapter 4 Preparations in order to properly see the stats and stuff to understand what is truly going on isn't ideal.

- The animation design is certainly a choice. I'm personally not the biggest fan of pushing it more towards traditional JRPG looks but I always thought that the FE9 and FE10 designs looked the cleanest. I prefer the look of Three Houses as more realistic looking than pure fantasy as this has.

- Difficulty is excellent. Started the game on Hard and actually Game Over'd in Chapter 3 due to bad strategy. The chapters before that have also nearly had me at points. My first playthrough is an Ironman so that's made me start playing smarter.

- I love that movement has been decreased to 4 with cavalry getting 5 move before promotion. They still have 25% more move than everyone else but that along with no more Canto (unless your name is Sigurd) immediately nerfs any horseback units properly and makes armours more useful. This was a great decision.

- The design team for unit skills needs to be taken out back and shot for the monstrosity of a skill on Etie. The rest are mediocre but that one is egregiously bad.

- Camera is awful. Three Houses had a perfect in battle camera for both the map and combats.

That's my thoughts through 3.5 chapters. Overall, I'm impressed.

[Humanoid]

15 hours ago, Phinius Dolphinius III said:

along with no more Canto (unless your name is Sigurd)

Well, about that...

 

(Canto is inheritable so you can easily give it to your entire team, regardless of move type. I guess that's still technically a cavalry nerf then.)

[Etrurian emperor]

I hope the relatively frosty reception helps give IS the kick in the butt it needs to shed its ''either or'' approach to gameplay and story. I don't think we had a Fire Emblem were both were unconditionally great since Radiant Dawn. That's fifteen years ago!

Gameplay absolutely wasn't the problem for Engage. Even the game's critic acknowledge the gameplay was very strong. The problem lies with the very strange choices in terms of story. With engage especially the devs made the deliberate approach for an ''either or'' approach when they really shouldn't have. Had the story and world received a bit more love and care Enage might even have grown as one of the stronger, more well regarded titles in the series.

After the Three Houses honeymoon period wore off many fans came of the opinion that the gameplay wasn't as strong as it could have been. As loved as Three Houses is, it would likely be the uncontested strongest Fire Emblem if the Gameplay was as up to snuff as its story. 

Honestly you'd think they learned their lesson after Conquest. One of the most intense Fire Emblem gameplay yet its got a controversial reputation thanks to its ridiculous story. In light of this the devs deliberately putting less effort in the Engage story is even stranger. 

Echoes is akin to Three houses but to a lesser extend. Even those who aren't a fan of the story per se at least praise the presentation, but the game also has to drag 30 years old Ness design with it. 

Just stop assuming a Fire Emblem can only have good gameplay OR a good story. Just go do both IS. Sheesh. 

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I hope the relatively frosty reception helps give IS the kick in the butt it needs to shed its ''either or'' approach to gameplay and story. I don't think we had a Fire Emblem were both were unconditionally great since Radiant Dawn. That's fifteen years ago!

Gameplay absolutely wasn't the problem for Engage. Even the game's critic acknowledge the gameplay was very strong. The problem lies with the very strange choices in terms of story. With engage especially the devs made the deliberate approach for an ''either or'' approach when they really shouldn't have. Had the story and world received a bit more love and care Enage might even have grown as one of the stronger, more well regarded titles in the series.

After the Three Houses honeymoon period wore off many fans came of the opinion that the gameplay wasn't as strong as it could have been. As loved as Three Houses is, it would likely be the uncontested strongest Fire Emblem if the Gameplay was as up to snuff as its story. 

Honestly you'd think they learned their lesson after Conquest. One of the most intense Fire Emblem gameplay yet its got a controversial reputation thanks to its ridiculous story. In light of this the devs deliberately putting less effort in the Engage story is even stranger. 

Echoes is akin to Three houses but to a lesser extend. Even those who aren't a fan of the story per se at least praise the presentation, but the game also has to drag 30 years old Ness design with it. 

Just stop assuming a Fire Emblem can only have good gameplay OR a good story. Just go do both IS. Sheesh. 

It's a weird thing to go either or for, given it's not the same people who wrote the story as design the gameplay. But, I suppose they don't see it as an either or. The story of Engage was meant to be good in the same way Awakening's story was meant to be good. That is to say light and charming that gets a lot of people mildly invested in drawing art of the characters.

[Sunwoo]

So, uh, I still haven't quite finished Engage yet. I'm on the last chapter, but I just got extremely burned out on it even though I was having some fun with it when I started. Honestly, I went into it expecting pretty much nothing, found the story about as disappointing as I thought it would be, had fun with the gameplay, and got so annoyed by the near-endgame chapters I got burned out.

One thing I want to contribute to this conversation (and to be fair, this is certainly not unique to Engage) is that nowadays, IS seems so fucking reluctant to allow characters to just ... not be sympathetic, you know? It's like even with (most of) their villains or antagonists they're constantly trying to go the "oh, but they had a tragic backstory!" route that is somehow supposed to make us feel bad for them and that they were also victims.

IS no longer can write villainous characters with troubled pasts who nonetheless did bad things and aren't excused for it. Like Nergal and Arvis, who are more complex than just "bad magic man bad", but they still did genuinely bad things and fucked up their world and in their own games aren't given a pass for it. And while the players are given more information than any single character has, the game doesn't shove into the player's face how they should feel about Nergal and Arvis. As opposed to how Zephia and Griss had this dumbass death scene where the game is clearly trying to "redeem" them somehow. Or Edelgard and Xander getting treated with kid gloves on their route so that they don't actually have to face the bad consequences of the things they do. It feels like we're not supposed to think about anything beyond what happens on the screen.

Also, in slight relation to that previous point, it also feels like the writers themselves just ... lack the ability to tell the kind of story that they want to or something. Like how characters that are supposed to be sympathetic come off as dumb and obnoxious instead (VEYLE), or plots that are meant to be clever just come off as really stupid. To give an example, it feels like someone trying to write a character who's supposed to be clever and intelligent, while the writer themselves lacks the cleverness and intelligence to realistically portray the character in a believable way.

[MeteorPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It's a weird thing to go either or for, given it's not the same people who wrote the story as design the gameplay. But, I suppose they don't see it as an either or. The story of Engage was meant to be good in the same way Awakening's story was meant to be good. That is to say light and charming that gets a lot of people mildly invested in drawing art of the characters.

The problem is that when Awakening tried to be serious (e.g. Lucina and Chrom cutscene), it generally succeeded. I don't get the sense that the Engage writers even tried here.

[Jotari]

32 minutes ago, MeteorPhoenix said:

The problem is that when Awakening tried to be serious (e.g. Lucina and Chrom cutscene), it generally succeeded. I don't get the sense that the Engage writers even tried here.

I'm more positively inclined to Engage's story, not because I think it's good, but because was so tired of Fodlan and its serious but still not actually good story, so it might be my own personal bias, but I think when they went serious for  some of the stuff in the chapters when Veyle joined the army they pulled it off decently well. Not spectacularly or anything, but as well as Awakening.

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

So, uh, I still haven't quite finished Engage yet. I'm on the last chapter, but I just got extremely burned out on it even though I was having some fun with it when I started. Honestly, I went into it expecting pretty much nothing, found the story about as disappointing as I thought it would be, had fun with the gameplay, and got so annoyed by the near-endgame chapters I got burned out.

One thing I want to contribute to this conversation (and to be fair, this is certainly not unique to Engage) is that nowadays, IS seems so fucking reluctant to allow characters to just ... not be sympathetic, you know? It's like even with (most of) their villains or antagonists they're constantly trying to go the "oh, but they had a tragic backstory!" route that is somehow supposed to make us feel bad for them and that they were also victims.

IS no longer can write villainous characters with troubled pasts who nonetheless did bad things and aren't excused for it. Like Nergal and Arvis, who are more complex than just "bad magic man bad", but they still did genuinely bad things and fucked up their world and in their own games aren't given a pass for it. And while the players are given more information than any single character has, the game doesn't shove into the player's face how they should feel about Nergal and Arvis. As opposed to how Zephia and Griss had this dumbass death scene where the game is clearly trying to "redeem" them somehow. Or Edelgard and Xander getting treated with kid gloves on their route so that they don't actually have to face the bad consequences of the things they do. It feels like we're not supposed to think about anything beyond what happens on the screen.

Also, in slight relation to that previous point, it also feels like the writers themselves just ... lack the ability to tell the kind of story that they want to or something. Like how characters that are supposed to be sympathetic come off as dumb and obnoxious instead (VEYLE), or plots that are meant to be clever just come off as really stupid. To give an example, it feels like someone trying to write a character who's supposed to be clever and intelligent, while the writer themselves lacks the cleverness and intelligence to realistically portray the character in a believable way.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think they have managed to keep doing that in Fire Embelm Heroes. And let me preface, Heroes does not have a great story. They are very limited by their story telling medium and have not found any way to actually make that a positive. However, the villains are...well...villainous. Okay, the most recent example in Gullveig and whatever that old dude's name are terrible, just boring. But the others, while they sometimes have sympathetic backstories, they still don't come across as sympathetic characters were meant to feel sorry for. And I think Eitri just doesn't have any sympathetic backstory at all and is just bad. Hel and Surtr are just Magic Man Bad without the magic class though. Course I have so little investment in these stories that I could be completely off base.

[Sunwoo]

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think they have managed to keep doing that in Fire Embelm Heroes. And let me preface, Heroes does not have a great story. They are very limited by their story telling medium and have not found any way to actually make that a positive. However, the villains are...well...villainous. Okay, the most recent example in Gullveig and whatever that old dude's name are terrible, just boring. But the others, while they sometimes have sympathetic backstories, they still don't come across as sympathetic characters were meant to feel sorry for. And I think Eitri just doesn't have any sympathetic backstory at all and is just bad. Hel and Surtr are just Magic Man Bad without the magic class though. Course I have so little investment in these stories that I could be completely off base.

I tend to forget Heroes exists most of the time.

That said, I do agree that there are some characters like Hel and Surtr who are allowed to just be bad without being sympathetic at all. But Heroes still has done this before, especially in books 4-6. Plumeria, Triandra, Freyja, and Otr got slapped with some "sad backstory" that really wasn't necessary and only existed to (try to) make them more sympathetic. It was probably more successful with the fairies than with Otr (probably because he's male). Maybe Letizia also got hit with this, but I have so little idea of what they were trying to do with her that I can't say for sure what was supposed to be her deal.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Sunwoo

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

I tend to forget Heroes exists most of the time.

That said, I do agree that there are some characters like Hel and Surtr who are allowed to just be bad without being sympathetic at all. But Heroes still has done this before, especially in books 4-6. Plumeria, Triandra, Freyja, and Otr got slapped with some "sad backstory" that really wasn't necessary and only existed to (try to) make them more sympathetic. It was probably more successful with the fairies than with Otr (probably because he's male). Maybe Letizia also got hit with this, but I have so little idea of what they were trying to do with her that I can't say for sure what was supposed to be her deal.

I don't think Otr was necessarily a failed attempt at being sympathetic and more not really an attempt.  Like, yes, he absolutely was a victim, and didn't deserve what happened to him. At the same time though he was always depicted as a dick. Oh wait, Otr was the brother, Fafnir was the king. What are you talking about then? I thought the brother character was self aware of his circumstances and still chose to be sort of a tool and work with Eitri for his own attachments.

[Sunwoo]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I don't think Otr was necessarily a failed attempt at being sympathetic and more not really an attempt.  Like, yes, he absolutely was a victim, and didn't deserve what happened to him. At the same time though he was always depicted as a dick. Oh wait, Otr was the brother, Fafnir was the king. What are you talking about then? I thought the brother character was self aware of his circumstances and still chose to be sort of a tool and work with Eitri for his own attachments.

Unless my memory is failing me, I'm pretty sure Otr had a last-minute monologue right before he died about how he (and his family) came to live at the palace and then lost everything until Fafnir appeared or some shit that was meant to be sympathetic.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

Unless my memory is failing me, I'm pretty sure Otr had a last-minute monologue right before he died about how he (and his family) came to live at the palace and then lost everything until Fafnir appeared or some shit that was meant to be sympathetic.

There's a better chance I just forgot that than you made it up.

[Saint Rubenio]

8 hours ago, MeteorPhoenix said:

The problem is that when Awakening tried to be serious (e.g. Lucina and Chrom cutscene), it generally succeeded. I don't get the sense that the Engage writers even tried here.

If I may add my 2 cents here, I'm not sure if I can in good faith say I found Engage's story worse than Awakening's when Awakening's story is the only story in the entirety of FE that I started skipping on my first run. I even stuck with Engage the whole way through, and Conquest was an absolute joy to laugh at, but Awakening, I could not handle.

When Genuinely Awesome Villain Gangrel died and then the plot grinded to a halt and started meandering with some unrelated threat, I just sort of checked out and started skipping to save time. Then again, I did that with all of Awakening - I accidentally broke the game by turning Panne into a wyvern, and ended up beating 15 chapters and the game in one afternoon by just throwing her and Gregor at the enemies and watching the game play itself. Also the entire cast except for those two, Flavia, Lucina and the lords died.

Weirdest first run of a FE game of my life.

...That being said, Engage doesn't even have Genuinely Awesome Villain Gangrel for a bit or 8-4's wonderful localization work like Awakening did. Engage's story is just... boring for 10 chapters, does a neat thing on chapters 10 and 11, is boring for another 10 chapters, then gets quite promising for a bit in chapter 21, completely flops the landing and goes right back to being boring until it ends. I didn't mind because after Three Houses I was terrified of the series becoming glorified VNs and having a game that focused on the gameplay was exactly what I wanted, but still.

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

If I may add my 2 cents here, I'm not sure if I can in good faith say I found Engage's story worse than Awakening's when Awakening's story is the only story in the entirety of FE that I started skipping on my first run. I even stuck with Engage the whole way through, and Conquest was an absolute joy to laugh at, but Awakening, I could not handle.

When Genuinely Awesome Villain Gangrel died and then the plot grinded to a halt and started meandering with some unrelated threat, I just sort of checked out and started skipping to save time. Then again, I did that with all of Awakening - I accidentally broke the game by turning Panne into a wyvern, and ended up beating 15 chapters and the game in one afternoon by just throwing her and Gregor at the enemies and watching the game play itself. Also the entire cast except for those two, Flavia, Lucina and the lords died.

Weirdest first run of a FE game of my life.

...That being said, Engage doesn't even have Genuinely Awesome Villain Gangrel for a bit or 8-4's wonderful localization work like Awakening did. Engage's story is just... boring for 10 chapters, does a neat thing on chapters 10 and 11, is boring for another 10 chapters, then gets quite promising for a bit in chapter 21, completely flops the landing and goes right back to being boring until it ends. I didn't mind because after Three Houses I was terrified of the series becoming glorified VNs and having a game that focused on the gameplay was exactly what I wanted, but still.

You get any child units on that run other than, presumably, Gregor!Yarne?

[Saint Rubenio]

42 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You get any child units on that run other than, presumably, Gregor!Yarne?

I actually did get a good few marriages done, and roughly half the army survived until the final chapter, so I could've gotten their kids.

Did not bother doing their chapters to fetch them, though. Why would I? I ended up benching my entire team because they were liabilities in the way of Panne and her backpack, and only brought them back onto the field in Endgame alongside my remaining benchies because Chrom could not survive the generics and Panne couldn't crit Grima to death quite fast enough. Their lives were a small price to pay to buy just enough time for Panne to seal the deal. Then I tried to get the tactician killed as well for good measure, but the game ignored my decision. For shame.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Saint Rubenio

[Etrurian emperor]

On 9/30/2023 at 2:16 AM, Sunwoo said:

Also, in slight relation to that previous point, it also feels like the writers themselves just ... lack the ability to tell the kind of story that they want to or something. Like how characters that are supposed to be sympathetic come off as dumb and obnoxious instead (VEYLE), or plots that are meant to be clever just come off as really stupid. To give an example, it feels like someone trying to write a character who's supposed to be clever and intelligent, while the writer themselves lacks the cleverness and intelligence to realistically portray the character in a believable way.

To be fair I think Veyle really was supposed to come off as a dummy whenever she interacted with the Hounds. 

I think FE Writers might be able to take a page from Triangle Strategy's book in this regard. They have a character in Benedict who's supposed to be the frighteningly intelligent strategist, and if you pick his route the game really allows him to cut loose and show just how much he think things through.

[Saint Rubenio]

If IntSys took Benedict and put him in the next FE it would instantly be the best FE story ever written

Alas, copyright...