FE9 Tier list v3

[Espinosa]

You did get the answer to those questions - tl;dr resources have a cost.

That's the point - Mia not only eats up a huge amount of BEXP to "shave off a turn" but even feeds on bosses to continue functioning to be comparable to Stefan (losing in offence and weapon rank which means no instant +5 defence option of the VK). The subpar SM just keeps eating up resources to do little of non-situational significance. Zihark can function without a BEXP investment for a while (could take a seal to be just a bit more since most longterm units are going for 20/1 anyway) and Stefan outstats everything at base.

Snowy, nobody cares about Zihark's support with Muarim, or Mia's support with Rhys.

Mia has the biggest strength issues of the three, necessitating the biggest investment to do very unimportant things, so she has difficulty ORKOing reliably, she will also have difficulty ORKOing unreliably - SM Zihark/Stefan with Adept and Astra respectively have very big chances of "unreliable ORKO" when clutching a Killing Edge, and are less likely to want a Steel Sword forge.

Mia's turn shave is not unique (Boyd, Ilyana and Soren are your alternatives, Boyd being the most realistic one by far and also the favourite for making delicious use of the BEXP by destroying the enemies to come with 1-2 range and rescuebot utility), but I can't find an explanation why you of all people would adapt an appeal to LTC here other than that you like your waifu very much.

[Hawk King]

Try closer to a 20/18 Soren. With a Laguzguard.

The ground on the mountain gives +1 DEF +10 avoid.

Soren has a 48% chance to kill an enemy before they even attack him. If he fails to kill he has over an 80 avoid giving most enemies ~30% or less hitrates.

edit: - @ Epinosa

no I did not get an answer. I asked what is more efficient, and gave two possible answers to choose from.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Hawk King

[Espinosa]

You also posted a loaded question, won't you agree? Nobody here thinks resources should be hoarded. I think I did a decent enough job outlining the relevant factors concerning the issue at hand. Too bad aku chi is not around because he could provide broader, more developed descriptions than what my linguistic faculties permit.

And that still seems like a big level for Soren. You could always drop a more durable unit up there or just rout with your flier.

[Baldrick]

Question 1: having 5000 BExp in the bank is more efficient.

Question 2: impossible to answer without knowing how much we value turns, BEXP and gold. In an LTC/draft context, the latter two are valueless (one turn is worth infinitely more than the maximum amount of BExp/gold available) but based on what Espinosa and Cynthia have said I can only assume it's not an LTC list.

[XeKr]

Gold and bexp only have value (for the purpose of this list) because they can be used to potentially improve turncount/reliability. They have no inherent value if deliberately unused (there is no funds/exp rank or such). Do you agree/disagree?

From my understanding, the reason it's accepted that using less resources is a good thing is because one could allocate those resources elsewhere. For example giving that bexp to say...Marcia and improve the robustness of meeting her benchmarks (if in random mode). Or Jill or Oscar or Boyd/Soren/Ilyana or whoever in other contexts.

Edited October 12, 2013 by XeKr

[Snowy_One]

You did get the answer to those questions - tl;dr resources have a cost.

That's the point - Mia not only eats up a huge amount of BEXP to "shave off a turn" but even feeds on bosses to continue functioning to be comparable to Stefan (losing in offence and weapon rank which means no instant +5 defence option of the VK). The subpar SM just keeps eating up resources to do little of non-situational significance. Zihark can function without a BEXP investment for a while (could take a seal to be just a bit more since most longterm units are going for 20/1 anyway) and Stefan outstats everything at base.

Snowy, nobody cares about Zihark's support with Muarim, or Mia's support with Rhys.

Mia has the biggest strength issues of the three, necessitating the biggest investment to do very unimportant things, so she has difficulty ORKOing reliably, she will also have difficulty ORKOing unreliably - SM Zihark/Stefan with Adept and Astra respectively have very big chances of "unreliable ORKO" when clutching a Killing Edge, and are less likely to want a Steel Sword forge.

Mia's turn shave is not unique (Boyd, Ilyana and Soren are your alternatives, Boyd being the most realistic one by far and also the favourite for making delicious use of the BEXP by destroying the enemies to come with 1-2 range and rescuebot utility), but I can't find an explanation why you of all people would adapt an appeal to LTC here other than that you like your waifu very much.

Firstly, BS on 'people not caring'. Mia's support with Rhys gets mentioned a LOT and I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise if people didn't care. If you're willing to accept Mia getting a Rhys support that's great and I applaud you for it. Some other people don't seem to accept that she can have it without/less problems than Zihark/Muarim though, and that's the problem.

And yes, I agree fully that Mia's turn-shave is very resource-draining and not-unique except for when comparing her to Zihark. The reason I supported it was more to rub it in your face how turn-focused this tier is since people were willing to put Mia, a character many argued against and some even argued to be among the worst unit at the time, better than fan-favorite Zihark, simply because of 1 turn. I fully believe Mia > Zihark. My reasons why she's better have nothing to do with that 1 turn though. But they have everything to do with your reasons.

[BBM]

Since when was Zihark the fan-fave? Mia's always been the fan-fave among most players because boobs.

And Rhys x Mia support doesn't get mentioned by anyone as being important except you. Anyone else who mentions it is putting it down.

The only person who's ever seriously advocated Mia > Zihark on the sole basis of C9 is Aeine, who I'm pretty sure is biased towards female units, because IIRC he never gave a response for why he was using Mia + Ilyana in his LTC runs other than that they had a +Mt support, conveniently ignoring that Soren + Boyd have enough of a Mt lead that they don't need +Mt in the first place.

[Espinosa]

Yeah, we use Fixed mode with access to bands when we tier (and I think this carried over to RTU topics too).

Gold and bexp only have value (for the purpose of this list) because they can be used to potentially improve turncount/reliability. They have no inherent value if deliberately unused (there is no funds/exp rank or such). Do you agree/disagree?

No, I disagree because of that one 'only' which adds a foreign implication. Similarly to how I will not hesitate to agree with the statement 'apples are fruits' but will exclaim 'wait a minute' if I hear you say 'fruits are apples'.

The OP links to an old FAQ from Vykan which reads:

Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards an efficient playthrough. By efficiency I am mainly referring to turn count and resource expenditure. Normally you’d expect a high tier unit to require fairly basic weapons and items while giving great returns in terms of their combat usefulness. Conversely, a lower ranked unit would probably require a lot of resources while giving less satisfactory combat returns.

So it's not just turn counts in a single lowest turns playthrough, imagined or real, or turn count and reliability, but all that plus the cost of resources consumed in the context of the competition for it and its possible application. You might have noticed this isn't an LTC tier list (and nor is any other tier list that anybody can walk in and discuss).

Snowy, you're the only one who still cares about supports which matter little in most FE games and this one is most of the time one of them. Perhaps years ago they were given a different weight than now, but times have changed and views on how to play the games and values of what makes a unit good with them, supports no longer being decisive of units' worth with a few exceptions.

If the reasons you state are not the reasons for Mia being better than Zihark and you have some other ones, then by all means state them if you want to go on because you're forcing an argument where you somehow have nothing to add to, as you suddenly confess.

edit: to BBM - Mia X Ilyana A gives +15 hit, which is kind of a big deal with sieging, and probably explains the choice to dump BEXP into Mia instead of Boyd within the narrow context of a lowest turn counts run. Mia is the most mobile of Ilyana's full accuracy supports, the alternative being Gatrie (Zihark and Mordecai can contribute half the hit bonus, so here we go with Mia VS Zihark yet again). Soren can rely on Stefan to give him the same hit bonus eventually, as Stefan's affinity is Heaven, but it also comes later. Soren also has a slight skill advantage over Ilyana plus if he misses he can always proc Adept and a fire another LRT at the target (costs an extra one but gets the job done and saves you a reset). Hawk King also seems to have an underdeveloped argument as to why Soren is preferred to Ilyana to the extent they don't belong in the same tier, a bit underdeveloped as a convincing rhetoric at this point, but Adept + noticeable leads in mag and spd seem to have something to do with it.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Espinosa

[Baldrick]

If "evidence of potential for further turn/reliability improvements" does not count as "inherent value", agree. If it does, disagree.

Edit: that's assuming the premise is true, of course.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Huck Finn

[Snowy_One]

It's +3 attack and a lot of hit. How is it not important especially since, if combined with an Ilyana B, it can allow Mia to break 200 hit (which means she can at least attempt to gamble and have at least a semi-decent chance of hitting).

And here are my reasons for why Mia > Zihark.

1) Mia's vantage is simply the best innate non-mastery skill in the game. Not only does Mia having vantage mean you can have, potentially, two vantage/wrath (Mia/Nephenee) or Vantage/Adept (Mia/Zihark or Mia/Soren) units, but vantage simply is the best combination skill in the game with other skills. Zihark cannot compete with this except by claiming the vantage scroll himself and, if he wants anything other than vantage/adept, he must use up a second skill.

2) Mia is one of the VERY few units who can actually viably use gamble. With a Rhys A/Ilyana B she gets 25 innate hit. The VK has 80 hit and the KE has 75 and forged weapons can hold more if we increase their hit-value (A silver-sword can get up to 105). This means that, before Mia's own hit comes into play she is between 95 and 125 hit. If she fights an axe-user she can get up to 215 hit. Halved is 107 and against an endgame warrior (the dodgiest of warriors) she still has a 64% chance to hit.

For comparison, Zihark given the same things, gets about 50-ish% and Stefan's low-luck is a pain as well (plus, heaven sucks as an affinity, so while Soren may support him, Mordi probably won't)

3) Mia can, viably, use the SS. Mia's endgame MAG is a 12. Not that impressive, but she gets +4 from her supports and can net +3-4 from the mage-band and 2/4 from the dusts. This means Mia's attack with the SS will be a decent 33. For comparison, Tanith only gets about 30-ish attack given the same treatment and assuming a Reyson/Marcia support (she can very well go for Oscar). Mia has the advantage of a boosted critical as well, so Mia can trounce Tanith with the SS. Even without assuming 'endgame MAG' Mia should only be behind Tanith by about 2 when she joins (assuming the mage band) and Mia can make up for that via supports and criticals. Zihark can't compete with this since he will have 5-6 magic (assuming bands) and doesn't get the +attack supports. This means Mia has a viable 1-2 range game (if a bit expensive) that Zihark does *not*. Is Mist 'better' with the SS? Yes. But Mist is weak enough without the SS to make not giving it to her certainly viable.

4) Zihark's main 'advantage' over Mia is his Muarim support. Except Muarim isn't that good of a unit as he will soon fall behind other units and regulated to shoving. Without Muarim around Mia dominates him even without her supports simply due to how useful Vantage is, especially when forming skill combos. Her Mt may be lacking, but a STR band or energy drop (of which there are three bands and two drops) is nothing compared to Zihark taking vantage to fight on the same terms as Mia (and Mia hasn't even taken a skill yet. Even Guard would put her leagues above Zihark since Zihark would need both vantage and guard to match. A high-demand unique resources > one of five resources + a low-demand resource in terms of 'effeciency' (Does Mia even HAVE competition for the guard scroll? Besides Zihark/Stefan at least).

5) Recruiting Zihark means losing out on BEXP unless you figure out how to recruit him without killing the vigilante's (I have yet to figure out how beyond sending Lethe up with an unarmed Titania, which I somehow suspect isn't kosher with anyone). The BEXP may be small, but recruiting Zihark actually *costs* you BEXP (up to 125) as opposed to Mia who joins free of charge (even walks towards you).

Is an extra 25/32.5 avoid really worth better skill allocation, the potential to use two almost-never-used skills, a 1-2 range game that can actually exist, a unit who will be sub-par at best into the endgame, and 125 BEXP? Mia is more flexible and, with almost any degree of investment into her, can come out on top for sure.

[Titamon]

Why does Zihark want Gamble when he has innate Adept?

And if Mia needs Gamble crits to kill things, then that speaks volumes about her offensive prowess.

[-Cynthia-]

Try closer to a 20/18 Soren. With a Laguzguard.

The ground on the mountain gives +1 DEF +10 avoid.

Soren has a 48% chance to kill an enemy before they even attack him. If he fails to kill he has over an 80 avoid giving most enemies ~30% or less hitrates.

edit: - @ Epinosa

no I did not get an answer. I asked what is more efficient, and gave two possible answers to choose from.

This seems prohibitively expensive (promoted units without Paragon take quite a bit of BEXP) given the alternatives. I don't deny that Soren is the better combat unit overall, but for all what we generally use them for Soren's advantages over Ilyana are rather small.

[Espinosa]

An actual question wrt "how to play FE" - does everyone remove Ilyana's Shade or keep it? On the other hand, it keeps her away from harm when she's not in immediate KO range but cannot take multiple enemies at once for the duration of one or more turns, but on the other, removing it entirely allows her to enjoy a full enemy phase of combat, letting her take experience beyond player phase kills and BEXP dumps at the camp.

Snowy:

We've grown out of support worship because even in games where they're built without effort and sandbagging, not always is it the case that the two units will be around for these supports to kick in. Even if two units share movement stats and they're high (say Allen and Lance), it's all too likely that they'll make use of that movement and go in opposite directions instead of being glued to each other because the latter just isn't the sane way to play the game. Rhys needs to avoid enemies at all cost, meanwhile Mia wants to be as close to the frontline as possible and could even be carried forward by cavalry in extreme circumstances (such as when you, God forbid, sell your soul to the LTC devil and decide to promote her for chapter 9, thus signing a permanent bloody contract to continue fielding her so that you feel less bad about this decision). Rhys's healing is not valued much, and nor is his usage of the deployment slot, as a Vulnerary will do the job in a pinch without slowing you down and better users of Rescue exist when one is needed.

1) Wrath is just too precious as an easy means of walloping the final boss. If Ike has such strength that he doesn't need it, a mobile bosskiller could want it for better chances of performing the main task. If not, the sieger could have it (the sieger also sometimes functioning as a bosskiller). But Zihark and Mia deciding which one of them should take Wrath for themselves? That's like arguing whether it's Gatrie or Sothe that should take the Boots.

2) Gamble cannot be used on enemy phase. Zihark needn't gamble with Gamble by means of gambling because of higher strength and additional chances to ORKO if one hit whiffs (which can happen on SMs and lance-users when using the stronger, less accurate blades, including, believe it or not, a Killing Edge).

3) So much is just wrong with this argument that I'm a little overwhelmed. Why is Tanith using magic swords over Javelin forges? Why do we care about using a Sonic Sword when it's better to counterkill a couple enemies you CAN engage at 1-range than fail to kill every single one that attacks you? Sonic Sword is really ineffective against mages too. Without a heavy rigging of the magic stat, you will not find a single competent user of any of the three magical melee weapons in this game, outside of BEXP-hungry Mist and Ellincia. The Mage Band offers a +1 mt increase per 10 levels, +2 mt when doubling. And again you go with the supports...

4) Nobody's saying Zihark is better because of the Muarim support. I don't even remember what the bonus between those two was (some avoid surely and I forget what Muarim's affinity was) and I won't bother looking it up until it's of any value - because I know there will rarely, if ever, be a situation when it will make a difference. Notice you're also the only one arguing either of these two scrubs will be taking a skill (I wouldn't argue too much if it's like Corrosion or Counter or something).

5) You could've known this strategy if you were a little more curious when browsing these forums. Sending unequipped Brom and Mordecai while paying attention to enemy range is the way to go. Mordecai can then go grab the northern village and even Smite the Black Knight before you seize. Just how flexible is that?

[BBM]

Zihark's advantage over Mia is NOT Muarim support. Nobody is discussing supports. His advantages are that he has better offence and better durability, and a better skill (yes, Adept > Vantage).

Vantage is not as amazing as you're making it out to be. For Vantage to make a difference, the person using it needs to be able to OHKO their attacker. This is not something that Mia can do reliably. If the best hit she can pull in one of her best case scenarios with Gamble is 64%, lol. That doesn't make her better than Zihark because he has 50% hit with it- it just makes Gamble a bad skill. Not only is Wrath not a guaranteed crit, it's also a pretty good skill even without Vantage that other people would also like. Adept, on the other hand, is guaranteed to make a difference every time it procs, because even if Zihark doesn't 3HKO, he leaves the enemy weaker for someone else to have an easier time finishing it. Vantage does no such thing. Yes, Adept has a lower proc rate, but it's actually a good skill by itself, while Vantage isn't.

[-Cynthia-]

Tanith's primary motivation for using the Sonic Sword is to ORKO Wyverns at 1-2 range, which she cannot do with Javelin forges.

[Snowy_One]

Why does Zihark want Gamble when he has innate Adept?

And if Mia needs Gamble crits to kill things, then that speaks volumes about her offensive prowess.

Mia doesn't need Gamble to kill things. Mia is just one of the very few units who can actually viably use it and have a hit-rate that isn't lower than a limbo-pole.

An actual question wrt "how to play FE" - does everyone remove Ilyana's Shade or keep it? On the other hand, it keeps her away from harm when she's not in immediate KO range but cannot take multiple enemies at once for the duration of one or more turns, but on the other, removing it entirely allows her to enjoy a full enemy phase of combat, letting her take experience beyond player phase kills and BEXP dumps at the camp.

Snowy:

We've grown out of support worship because even in games where they're built without effort and sandbagging, not always is it the case that the two units will be around for these supports to kick in. Even if two units share movement stats and they're high (say Allen and Lance), it's all too likely that they'll make use of that movement and go in opposite directions instead of being glued to each other because the latter just isn't the sane way to play the game. Rhys needs to avoid enemies at all cost, meanwhile Mia wants to be as close to the frontline as possible and could even be carried forward by cavalry in extreme circumstances (such as when you, God forbid, sell your soul to the LTC devil and decide to promote her for chapter 9, thus signing a permanent bloody contract to continue fielding her so that you feel less bad about this decision). Rhys's healing is not valued much, and nor is his usage of the deployment slot, as a Vulnerary will do the job in a pinch without slowing you down and better users of Rescue exist when one is needed.

1) Wrath is just too precious as an easy means of walloping the final boss. If Ike has such strength that he doesn't need it, a mobile bosskiller could want it for better chances of performing the main task. If not, the sieger could have it (the sieger also sometimes functioning as a bosskiller). But Zihark and Mia deciding which one of them should take Wrath for themselves? That's like arguing whether it's Gatrie or Sothe that should take the Boots.

2) Gamble cannot be used on enemy phase. Zihark needn't gamble with Gamble by means of gambling because of higher strength and additional chances to ORKO if one hit whiffs (which can happen on SMs and lance-users when using the stronger, less accurate blades, including, believe it or not, a Killing Edge).

3) So much is just wrong with this argument that I'm a little overwhelmed. Why is Tanith using magic swords over Javelin forges? Why do we care about using a Sonic Sword when it's better to counterkill a couple enemies you CAN engage at 1-range than fail to kill every single one that attacks you? Sonic Sword is really ineffective against mages too. Without a heavy rigging of the magic stat, you will not find a single competent user of any of the three magical melee weapons in this game, outside of BEXP-hungry Mist and Ellincia. The Mage Band offers a +1 mt increase per 10 levels, +2 mt when doubling. And again you go with the supports...

4) Nobody's saying Zihark is better because of the Muarim support. I don't even remember what the bonus between those two was (some avoid surely and I forget what Muarim's affinity was) and I won't bother looking it up until it's of any value - because I know there will rarely, if ever, be a situation when it will make a difference. Notice you're also the only one arguing either of these two scrubs will be taking a skill (I wouldn't argue too much if it's like Corrosion or Counter or something).

5) You could've known this strategy if you were a little more curious when browsing these forums. Sending unequipped Brom and Mordecai while paying attention to enemy range is the way to go. Mordecai can then go grab the northern village and even Smite the Black Knight before you seize. Just how flexible is that?

1) Even if Mia doesn't get wrath, she still has the option of adept and guard. Even if she doesn't get THOSE the simple fact is that a 20-30% chance to end an EP phase without even having to risk a dodge is more valuable than an extra ~20% to dodge, especially since that can be negated by lances. No lance in the game can reduce Mia's critical rate (or anyones for that matter).

3) Once again, the point is not that Mia is the 'best' with the SS, just that she is better than Zihark. Also, of the people who actually can use the SS, Mist and Tanith are the top two mentioned usually. Mia can be better with the SS than Tanith, one of those two (and almost certainly it's wielder if Mist doesn't get it). Mia utterly trounces Zihark with it and can get a viable 1-2 range combat, if crit-based. Zihark cannot. Point: Mia. And you underestimate the mage band. By level 20/1 thats +1, but 20/10 thats +2 and 20/20 +3. Unless you want to fix the amount of BEXP every unit gets, you have to let for the possibility that units who aren't prepromoted will reach that.

4) Then what does Zihark have over Mia? His skill is inferior. He joins later. He's nowhere near as flexible. His only 'advantage' can be negated just by keeping Rhys (who can easily do his job via physic-staves) near Mia... What does he have that Mia doesn't?

5) Not flexible at all. Firstly, this requires the player knowing said strategy and doing something completely counter-intuitive (NOT killing enemy units attacking you). Secondly, if, for any reason this FAILS or isn't preformed, Zihark costs you. Mia does not. Point: Mia.

Zihark's advantage over Mia is NOT Muarim support. Nobody is discussing supports. His advantages are that he has better offence and better durability, and a better skill (yes, Adept > Vantage).

Vantage is not as amazing as you're making it out to be. For Vantage to make a difference, the person using it needs to be able to OHKO their attacker. This is not something that Mia can do reliably. If the best hit she can pull in one of her best case scenarios with Gamble is 64%, lol. That doesn't make her better than Zihark because he has 50% hit with it- it just makes Gamble a bad skill. Not only is Wrath not a guaranteed crit, it's also a pretty good skill even without Vantage that other people would also like. Adept, on the other hand, is guaranteed to make a difference every time it procs, because even if Zihark doesn't 3HKO, he leaves the enemy weaker for someone else to have an easier time finishing it. Vantage does no such thing. Yes, Adept has a lower proc rate, but it's actually a good skill by itself, while Vantage isn't.

If there was only one fight, sure. But Give Mia, a killing edge, and even before she promotes thats a 30% chance to kill an enemy before they attack her. Also, you're going to rip on vantage for 'not proccing' but ignore that adept has only a skill% chance of activating? I.E. At best it has a 29% chance. Seems hyper-biased to me since Vantage will always be active and just giving Mia a weapon that's a natural fit for her makes it more likely to make a difference at BASE LEVEL THAN ZIHARK'S ADEPT DOES AT 20/20!

Heck, even ignoring that, adept *only* works when the enemy was 3HKO'ed (yes, I know it can activate off of other strikes, but if you're seriously gonna push a double-activation, I'd like to question why Zihark is even fighting a 4HKO'ed foe in the first place) before or could be 2HKO'ed on the EP and you have the vantaged strike

Also, yes, a wrathed Mia is an almost guaranteed critical. 30 crit from a KE, 50 from wrath, up to 9-13 from Mia's SKL, and 15 for being a SM. That's 104 critical. Without the KE and no weapon-bonuses that's still a hefty 74 critical for a 20/1 Mia. Heaven forbid you, you know, give her swords forged with +critical, the VK, or anything other than baseline weapons while she's wrathed.

Tanith's primary motivation for using the Sonic Sword is to ORKO Wyverns at 1-2 range, which she cannot do with Javelin forges.

And Mia having a 1-2 range offense isn't valid motivation for her to use it? Especially since she can potentially do some real damage with it with her boosted critical rate and passible offense?

[PKL]

Seeing Snow's arguments for Mia are only making me convert to Zihark>Mia >_>

[Shadow Mir]

Seeing Snow's arguments for Mia are only making me convert to Zihark>Mia >_>

I'm not even sure why he bothers bringing up 20/20 stats either, since they're likely never gonna be relevant <_<

[BBM]

Did you ignore the part where I said that Adept is useful even when Zihark doesnt kill with it because it weakens his enemy more? Conversely Vantage is useless if you don't kill on the first hit. You're also forgetting that Adept has two chances to proc, so something like a 20% chance of getting it once actually means a 36% of proccing it at least once.

Neither Mia nor Zihark are good enough to justify dragging a second mediocre unit along with them. Mia's SKL lead is pretty irrelevant. Neither are getting any extra skills that are good. Zihark's extra durability isn't in his AVO, it's in his HP and DEF.

You're also overhyping SS. OMG 25 USES OF 1-2 RANGE!!! Its main use is also killing wyverns, which Zihark can also do with it adequately.

[General Banzai]

isnt mia better than zihark simply because she exists for like 3 chapters more than him

because otherwise theyre virtually identical, at least to the point that who gives a fuck

[shadykid]

Seeing Snow's arguments for Mia are only making me convert to Zihark>Mia >_>

Snowy, master at making everyone disagree with him no matter what

almost like Ted Cruz!

[Hawk King]

Snowy just stop. Mia is already above Zihark. You are just beating a dead horse. Except youre using a defibulator and are bringing the horse back to life.

Banzai summed it up perfectly.

My loaded questions are only because im trying to understand efficiency better. Im trying to figure out where "resource expenditure to save a turn" goes from efficient to inefficient.

If the Mia/Boyd/Soren Bexp dump to save the turn in Chp 9 were less than the 1000 that it takes would it be deemed efficient? How much less would it need to be?

Marcia requires around 1350 Bexp to save the 3? turns in Chp 11 and no one questions that resource dump.

Now if we dont spend the Bexp for Chp 9, where and when do we spend it? We can achieve minimum turncounts on every other map without spending it so if we give it to anyone else there is literally no returns on it making the expenditure by definition "inefficient".

btw, I think Soren is not only a tier better than Illyana, but also the best of the Sages.

[Shadow Mir]

edit: Soren has a huge advantage at normal combat, and does the most damage with siege tomes. He can potentially ORKO Shisharim with a Meteor tome. And allows for a 2 turn clear of Chp 25 with Vantage and a thunder forge.

This sounds like BS, plain and simple. Soren would need something like 25-26 speed to double Shiharam after Meteor's weight penalty being factored in - that ain't happenin'. And Adept is unreliable. On top of that, Soren wouldn't even be able to ORKO 45/13 HP/Res with Meteor unless he has something like 36 atk - not happening without some BS inflated level for Soren..

Edited October 13, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[BBM]

Yeah I think Tormod is being overrated due to Celerity. It's nice but he doesn't really have the durability to be duking it as a main combat unit and still doesn't have Canto. His main function, as with the other Sages, is still going to be sieging and it's not really all that helpful there. Maybe Soren can't ORKO Shiharam, but he still does more damage than Tormod/Ilyana.

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah I think Tormod is being overrated due to Celerity. It's nice but he doesn't really have the durability to be duking it as a main combat unit and still doesn't have Canto. His main function, as with the other Sages, is still going to be sieging and it's not really all that helpful there. Maybe Soren can't ORKO Shiharam, but he still does more damage than Tormod/Ilyana.

I think Soren's Mag lead is being blown out of proportion a bit here- a 20/1 Soren has 18 Mag, Tormod has 17 Mag. If Tormod gets several of his easily obtainable +Mt supports in play (Calill, Reyson, Devdan), he could actually have a Mt lead which leaves Soren with...Adept? I think requiring less Shoving for sieging/actually being able to reach normal combat more often is better than a % chance for another siege tome attack.