Banzai's Archetypes

[General Banzai]

Some of you may know already but I believe the current way we organize our archetypes is wrong. I feel that there is too much emphasis on gameplay elements rather than on story elements, and that an "archetype" by definition is a story-based indicator. So I'm compiling my own list of archetypes complete with explanations and examples from all the games in the series (except FE2 and FE3/FE12 because I am unfamiliar with them). I've learned from my giant FE7 rage-thread, however, and instead of plopping down a humongous hunk of text, I will instead go at this a little by little at a time, to keep debate focused. And trust me, there will be debate, if I know my Serenes Forest.

For FE1 examples, I include textual data supplied only in FE11's (scanty) bonus dialogue. For different examples from Generation 1 and 2 of FE4, I will mark relevant generations.

The Malledus

An advisor figure to the main character. Typically used as a foil to the main character; he gives advice that is more "realistic" or "practical" than caring or compassionate. In Shadow Dragon, for instance, Malledus informs Marth that losses are inevitable in battle; Seth in Sacred Stones tells Ephraim that they cannot hope to keep the supply convoy; Soren in Path of Radiance advises selling Elincia and siding with Daein because they're the side most likely to win.

While originally the Malledus was typically older and a symbol of authority, in more recent games the role of the Malledus has fallen on younger shoulders, oftentimes even peers of the main character. This shift marks a changing tide in what I like to call the agency of the main character in Fire Emblem. I could explain this for hours but I won't bore you.

FE1: Malledus

FE4: Oifaye (Gen 1), Levin (Gen 2)

FE5: August

FE6: Merlinus

FE7: —

FE8: Seth, Innes

FE9: Soren

FE10: Izuka

Possible Issues: Some people may notice the absence of Dorias from FE5. While he is an advisor figure, I feel that he does not give the kind of cynical advice that the Malledus is known for. The Tactician from FE7 is absent for the same reason. Soren is absent from FE10 because he seems to have grown into a much less cynical person since FE9. Izuka instead takes his place in a Malledus taken to its most radical extreme; where the advice is cynical and uncaring to the point of ridiculousness.

The Jagen/The Oifaye

An experienced, veteran knight tasked with the protection of the main character. Generally holds a rank such as General or Knight Commander to emphasize his experience. The primary difference between the Jagen and the Oifaye is age; while the Jagen is elderly and nearing the end of his days, the Oifaye is only somewhat older than the main character. The shift from Jagen to Oifaye seems to correspond roughly with the shift from old Malledus to young Malledus.

FE1: Jagen

FE4: Oifaye (Gen 2)

FE5: Finn

FE6: Marcus

FE7: Marcus

FE8: Seth

FE9: Titania

FE10: Sothe

Possible Issues: Finn seems to be the only one here that may arouse argument. However, his status as a knight who is specifically protecting Leaf is what gives him the edge over Evayle and especially Dagda. Such a definition brings up issue with Sothe, though, who is also not a knight. However, his veteran status is constantly explicated by the rest of the Dawn Brigade. Evayle is the only other option that I would consider adding to this list, but if so only in conjunction with Finn rather than replacing him.

The Abel and the Cain

A pair of young knights who form a duo. The Abel wears green and typically cares more about family or women rather than service to his country. Sometimes the Abel is seen as an "outsider" to the country he serves. The Cain wears red and is uptight, focused on duty, and constantly reprimands the Abel for his lack of discipline. His devotion often annoys the Abel.

FE1: Abel/Cain

FE4: Alec/Noish

FE5: Alba/Kane

FE6: Lance/Allen

FE7: Sain/Kent

FE8: Forde/Kyle

FE9: Oscar/Kieran

FE10: Oscar/Kieran

Possible Issues: Inexplicably the colors are swapped for Forde and Kyle, although by personality they fit their archetype to the letter. Beta images indicate that originally Forde WAS green and Kyle WAS red; I wonder why they changed it. In the Radiant Dawn interviews, the developers explain that they like to bring in the red and green cavaliers and use the color red to signify power and strength, so the player has a feeling what they will excel in from the start. If this is so, however, they've swapped the palette for Sain/Kent and Forde/Kyle.

Also, there is the issue of Alba and Kane. They have no in-game dialogue, but their character endings suggest a typical Abel/Cain duality (as do their names). Alba is looked upon as an outsider; Kane maintains a strong devotion to his nation. Once again, however, the color schemes are reversed. The color schemes are also reversed if we look from a statistical basis; Kane, the green cavalier, has higher strength.

The Ogma

Leader of a band of mercenaries. A highly masculinized figure. He is a jovial, fatherly figure to his soldiers, all of whom he knows on a personal basis. Despite his outward nature of approachability and friendliness, however, he is haunted by an unsavory past, usually as an arena fighter. He is hired by the lordly character although he makes it clear that he is not simply in it for the money, instead choosing to follow employers of character.

The Ogma is always set in contrast to highly feminine characters, perhaps to emphasize his masculinity. What is interesting about this contrast, however, is how detached these relationships are, how particularly unromantic. The Ogma never ends the game happily married, can never “pair up” with a female character. Two of the Ogma archetype have been married in the past, these marriages have since ended and are never mentioned at all by the Ogma, and are perhaps part of the past that the Ogma attempts to flee. One Ogma, Zealot, remains married during the course of the game but is constantly detached and separated from his wife, to the point that he has not even seen his year-old child. A sense of homoeroticism sometimes surrounds the Ogma and his most trusted man.

FE1: Ogma

FE4: —

FE5: Dagda

FE6: Deke, Zealot

FE7: (Raven?)

FE8: Gerik

FE9: Greil

FE10: Ike

Possible Issues: Raven is marked here as being highly suspect. On one hand, he has the brooding past, the hyper-masculinity, and the homoerotic undertones, but on the other, he lacks the jovial personality and the band of mercenaries under his command. In a sense, Raven is a fusion of the Ogma and Navarre archetypes. I expect that people may point out that Gerik does “pair” with both Marisa and Tethys, and thus violates the detached/homosexual nature of archetype.

Gerik I argue is in one sense an anomaly and yet in one sense not at all. His band of mercenaries, unlike the band of every other Ogma, is not a band of men but a band of women. His relationships are still with his most trusted subordinates, it’s simply that those subordinates happen to be women. However, there is even more than that going on here. Let’s look closer at Gerik’s two endings with Tethys and Marisa. Tethys’s ending is particularly non-romantic, with no mention of love or marriage or anything of that sort. For that, I will omit it from the discussion of Love and the Ogma. I want to focus in on Gerik’s ending with Marisa, however (Marisa is another anomaly character who I will bring up in Navarre discussion). We have, of course, a reference to “shared affection” between the two. Romantic, yes, but think about Marisa’s character. She is a specifically de-feminized character (judging by her character, not her appearance). She is quiet, reserved, in her supports constantly referring to her inability to do anything but fight (this is even brought up in the Gerik/Marisa ending). Now the Ogma archetype insists that although the Ogma has close relationships with heavily feminized characters, in the end these relationships bear no romantic fruition and instead he tends to lean towards his most trusted man. In Gerik’s case, then, Tethys is the hyper-feminine, and Marisa is the trusted man. Marisa in a sense is depicted as masculine as well, especially in terms of sexuality:

Gerik: Speaking of which, when I first met you, you were always working alone. I remember thinking how odd that was. I figured a woman as beautiful and talented as you would have men all around her.
Marisa: Don't need 'em.

The fact that Gerik pairs with a masculinized character thus affirms his status in the Ogma archetype.

So what does this mean? Well, for starters, it certainly allows us to understand Ike’s character, especially his development arc between Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. Ike’s refusal of Elincia and turn instead to Soren is not, as some have stated before, “a pandering to the yaoi fangirls.” Instead it is an archetypal standard which Intelligent Systems has followed since at least Thracia.

The Navarre

Pensive, brooding swordsman of few words. A renowned killer, often with his own nickname. His reputation proceeds him; the player often hears whispers of the Navarre before he ever appears onscreen.

Despite his cold-blooded exterior, a hidden honor dictates the Navarre’s actions. Oftentimes a dark secret in his past is what keeps him from betraying any high emotion. He acts as a foil to the Ogma; in many instances the Navarre and the Ogma will have a conversation in which the Navarre’s lockdown of emotion butts heads with the Ogma’s sociability towards his comrades-in-arms. Even after the Navarre joins the team he often acts as a “lone wolf,” keeping himself away from the rest of the army and actively pursuing solitude. While previously we have noted a relationship between the Navarre, the Julian, and the Lena, this relationship seems only tenuously related to the archetype. Later games in the series seem to subvert or bend the relationships between the three archetypes until they no longer exist or only partially exist. When the Navarre/Julian/Lena triangle is in use, however, it typically stems from the Navarre seeing in the Lena a sense of salvation which attracts him to her. A Navarre with a relationship with the Lena often seeks repentance for his killing; a Navarre without a relationship with the Lena is often just the opposite, uncaring and apathetic to his crimes.

Frequently at the end of the war, the Navarre disappears without a trace.

FE1: Navarre (Lena: Lena)

FE4: Aless (Lena: Leen)

FE5: Shiva (Lena: Safi)

FE6: Rutger (No Lena)

FE7: Karel (No Lena), Jaffar (Lena: Nino), Raven (Lena: Priscilla)

FE8: —

FE9: Volke (No Lena)

FE10: Volke (No Lena)

Possible Issues: Obviously, many. The first is the question of whether or not a Lena is essential to a Navarre. Is a Navarre without a Lena (as I have described it) even a Navarre at all, or rather a different archetype altogether? Doing so would eliminate two of what I feel are the most controversial members of this list (Volke and Karel), but also someone who is commonly considered one of the clearest examples of the archetype (Rutger).

Which brings me to my second point. Many are probably of course saying “But Rutger does have a Lena! It’s Clarine,” to which I staunchly disagree. Rutger fights because of his hatred towards Bern, a fact which he states multiple times. He does not seek salvation or redemption. He frees Clarine because he believes it will do ill against Bern; he joins Roy only after Clarine explains that the Lycian League is fighting Bern as well. In his supports with Karel, Rutger explains that his sword was made for killing, placing himself in contrast to Karel.

Karel: Why? Am I not a worthy opponent for you?


Rutger: Your sword isn't used to kill... It doesn't agree with the path I pursue.

Now although Rutger doesn’t have a Lena, he fits every other element of the Navarre. He is a renowned swordsman (Erik in Chapter 4: Hmph, not the friendliest of people. Well, he's supposed to be one of the best swordsmen in the land), brooding and quiet, haunted by a dark past, set as a foil to the Ogma (Deke), and vanishes without a trace at the war’s end.

Next is Karel. No Lena, doesn’t start as an enemy unit, seemingly no honor, hidden or not (at least until FE6), and also does not vanish at the end of either game he’s in. Still, his fame as a killer swordsman, his terseness, and his moniker have earned him a spot on this list. I assume others will have something else to say.

Jaffar is not normally seen as a Navarre but I feel he fits the archetype almost exactly. The only problem is that his Lena, Nino, isn’t really a Lena at all—but she plays the role of one as far as Jaffar is concerned. To Jaffar, she is the innocence that he must save, and is prepared to die so that she may live. He’s a dangerous killer, has his own nickname, renowned across the world, speaks few words, seemingly soulless but has a hidden honor, disappears at the end of the war. All in all, a perfect fit for the archetype.

I’ve discussed Raven before, noting how he is a strange hybrid of the Navarre and the Ogma. Many people had problems with that distinction and I’ll be more willing to argue them here.

That brings us to Volke. Again, other than missing a Lena, he fits the archetype almost exactly. While not a “swordsman” per se, he is definitely a renowned killer. He is quiet, speaks little, disappears at the end of the story. Does he have a troubled past? Impossible to know, but I feel he fits enough of the requirements of the Navarre that an ambiguous past rather than a clearly troubled one doesn’t work too much against him.

Edited March 6, 2012 by General Banzai

[Sunwoo]

Banzai ... while I do understand that you define archetypes differently than most people on here do, I wouldn't say that "everyone defines archetypes" wrong, nor would I say that you define them wrong. Can't we just agree that each person has their own slightly different interpretation of archetype and not say that anyone is "wrong"? Besides, has anyone ever officially defined what each archetype "means" and what characters fall under each archetype?

(I'm not attacking you, by the way, just trying to offer my opinion.)

[General Horace]

Where's FE3/12 Arran?

Never mind, I didn't read your post

Edited February 29, 2012 by General Horace

[Florete]

The Jagen/The Oifaye

while the Jagen is elderly and nearing the end of his days, the Oifaye is only somewhat older than the main character.

FE10: Sothe

Sothe is most definitely younger than Micaiah. See.

But, uh, I don't know why it's such a problem to have both story-based archetypes and gameplay-based archetypes. The Jagen and the Christmas Knights usually work for both and there are plenty in each category you can come up with.

[Aethereal]

You don't provide a reason for archetypes to be solely based on the story. A lot of people who play this game (shockingly) consider gameplay important and relevant to comparisons of characters.

[Celice]

Why should he? He already stated that this was something he wanted to do and why, and that's enough of a reason. There's no innate necessity to defend that.

EDIT: that was a shallow, scanty surveying of the character castes. Couldn't you have, you know, put a little more meat in the first post...? These sound like typical first-draft notes of something, not a standing statement :o (I know you said you were starting thinly, but man, this is beyond thin, this is rough bullet-point notation D:)

Edited February 29, 2012 by Celice

[Shin]

Where's the Alec archtype? You know, the skirt chasers like him, Homer, Saul and Sain?

[CrashGordon94]

Don't forget Gatrie!

[MacLovin]

Don't forget Gatrie!

No, wait he has a fetish for trees

[Anouleth]

FE1: Malledus

FE4: Oifaye (Gen 1), Levin (Gen 2)

FE5: August

FE6: Merlinus

FE7: —

FE8: Seth, Innes

FE9: Soren

FE10: Izuka

Innes isn't really such a case, I think, and both Soren and Titania "advise" Ike throughout FE9 and FE10.

Possible Issues: Some people may notice the absence of Dorias from FE5. While he is an advisor figure, I feel that he does not give the kind of cynical advice that the Malledus is known for. The Tactician from FE7 is absent for the same reason. Soren is absent from FE10 because he seems to have grown into a much less cynical person since FE9. Izuka instead takes his place in a Malledus taken to its most radical extreme; where the advice is cynical and uncaring to the point of ridiculousness.

What about all the advice that Soren gives in Part 3? His role seems a lot more major than Izuka's, who only provides advice from Chapter 1-6 to 1-E. And he is really just as brusque and cynical...

"Soren

Do you realize how completely absurd you sound? The enemy did not build the fortress so they could stand outside of it. They will not come out of their own accord."

FE1: Jagen

FE4: Oifaye (Gen 2)

FE5: Finn

FE6: Marcus

FE7: Marcus

FE8: Seth

FE9: Titania

FE10: Sothe

Surely, Tauroneo would be better fitting in FE10 than Sothe?

FE1: Abel/Cain

FE4: Alec/Noish

FE5: Alba/Kane

FE6: Lance/Allen

FE7: Sain/Kent

FE8: Forde/Kyle

FE9: Oscar/Kieran

FE10: Oscar/Kieran

I don't think that this archetype really demands that the green one or the red one is the uptight one: merely that the two have contrasting personalities and that one of them excels in strength and the other in skill/speed.

In addition, you could argue that Geoffrey is the green knight for FE10, since Oscar and Kieran have few lines together.

[dondon151]

what is a story please exeplain

[Othin]

I disagree as always with any distinction between a Jagen and an Oifaye. Some Jagens are old, some are young. Some are good, some are bad. Oifaye is not an archetype; he is just a member of an existing archetype.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think Lance and Allen fit the red/green archetype too well, they're both equally devoted to Pherae, Lance is cautious and common-born, Allen is reckless and comes from a long line of knights.

[Serious_much]

Well, that what you wrote in your Opening post is common knowledge .

For example : I define Jagen as the most experienced and wise member of the Troop . He doesnt have to be all that old . Arran from FE3 was probably only in his 30's .

So would you explain your (different) view for the Archetypes a bit more ?

[Refa]

Fin's no Jagen/Oifaye!

[Non-Existent Member]

I disagree as always with any distinction between a Jagen and an Oifaye. Some Jagens are old, some are young. Some are good, some are bad. Oifaye is not an archetype; he is just a member of an existing archetype.

That's what I think too. I never think of Seth, Titania, or maybe even Raffin as Oifayes. I still think of them as Jeigans even if they're good.

[Ϲharlie]

Fin's no Jagen/Oifaye!

But he has so much in common with Jeigan.

[Anouleth]

But he has so much in common with Jeigan.

Except for having bad growths and being an early-joining prepromoted unit.

[Lord Raven]

and that an "archetype" by definition is a story-based indicator

From dictionary.com:

the original pattern or model from which all things of the same kind are copied or on which they are based; a model or first form; prototype.

huh

Edited March 1, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[Elieson]

Banzai already indicated that he does not follow the general & original idea that everybody else follows. That includes definition from a dictionaries.

He changed the meaning of archetype and is now redefining it in his own words.

[General Banzai]

I don't think Lance and Allen fit the red/green archetype too well, they're both equally devoted to Pherae, Lance is cautious and common-born, Allen is reckless and comes from a long line of knights.

Lance isn't from Pherae, a fact he expresses makes him feel like an outsider to the rest of the Pherae knights.

Banzai already indicated that he does not follow the general & original idea that everybody else follows. That includes definition from a dictionaries.

He changed the meaning of archetype and is now redefining it in his own words.

From Wikipedia:

"Archetypes are likewise supposed to have been present in folklore and literature for thousands of years, including prehistoric artwork. The use of archetypes to illuminate personality and literature was advanced by Carl Jung early in the 20th century, who suggested the existence of universal contentless forms that channel experiences and emotions, resulting in recognizable and typical patterns of behavior with certain probable outcomes. Archetypes are cited as important to both ancient mythology and modern narratives."

Fine. Since you guys are going to be sticklers, I'll amend my original definition. "Archetypes in story-based forms are by definition story-based indicators..." Happy? Of course not. Raven will next come and say "lol you just change whatever you say until it makes sense" to which I say "duh, that's the point."

I disagree as always with any distinction between a Jagen and an Oifaye. Some Jagens are old, some are young. Some are good, some are bad. Oifaye is not an archetype; he is just a member of an existing archetype.

As I said in the post, the only distinction is purely aesthetic.

Fin's no Jagen/Oifaye!

And why not?

So would you explain your (different) view for the Archetypes a bit more ?

It'll become more obvious when I get to Navarres and Ogmas. Basically I don't take gameplay elements like stats or class into account, although often story-based archetypes follow stat-based and class-based patterns.

[Lord Raven]

Of course not. Raven will next come and say "lol you just change whatever you say until it makes sense" to which I say "duh, that's the point."

No my point was that you are changing things purely to

a) piss off the community and be a contrarian in every single way;

b) to satisfy your own ego and make yourself correct.

The fact that you have to change a commonly held metric of judging archetypes, starting with changing the definition of the word itself, shows that you're just making this thread your own soapbox rather than a genuine discussion. Which is fine, except you make it a point to say that we all define archetypes wrong and that your opinion is the only correct one; in other words, it pretty much tries to provoke a very angry, mean-spirited discussion and it pretty much turns into your own soapbox. We weren't the only reason your other thread got locked, Banzai; it was your general personality and your inability to properly socialize with people and so much as fathom the thought of people having differing opinions that got it locked. You're not open to any ideas from anyone who isn't a student of English.

And frankly, if that doesn't get through to you, then it actually more or less raises the question as to why we even try anymore.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[Othin]

Raven, do you have anything constructive to contribute, or are you just going to hurl around baseless accusations?

[Lord Raven]

The fact that you're saying my accusations are baseless only serves to prove my point.

[Othin]

You jump wildly to conclusions and hurl harsh accusations, so wildly that you can only either be delusional or trolling in an attempt to get this thread locked as well.

Whatever the cause, I have no reason to play along. I will not so much as acknowledge any more posts you make in this thread, or any statements referring to your posts. I suggest everyone else in this thread similarly ignore you.

---

Banzai, I'm curious about those Navarres and Ogmas you mentioned. What lists do you have in mind?

Edited March 1, 2012 by Othin