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3 minutes ago, Othin said:

Note that the Pair Up legendary effect, relative to other legendary effects, means giving up stat boosts to any elemental teammates you might be running. I think it makes sense for it to compensate for that.

Previous Legendaries didn't give any BST bonus for Arena, so it could have been any number, but they went for 5 more than the Duel skills for some reason.

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1 minute ago, Rezzy said:

Previous Legendaries didn't give any BST bonus for Arena, so it could have been any number, but they went for 5 more than the Duel skills for some reason.

If it was just a Duel skill, then it'd do absolutely nothing for Roy once merged. His BST at +0 is 169, rising to 172 (he has no superboons) once the bane is cancelled out.

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2 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

If it was just a Duel skill, then it'd do absolutely nothing for Roy once merged. His BST at +0 is 169, rising to 172 (he has no superboons) once the bane is cancelled out.

I think it's more for the allies than the unit themselves.  i.e. Earth blessed units get the BST bonus in the arena this week when Alm is on the team.

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8 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I think it's more for the allies than the unit themselves.  i.e. Earth blessed units get the BST bonus in the arena this week when Alm is on the team.

That's not how it works, which is probably for the best. There was a lot of concern when Roy first came out and people assumed this was how it'd work, but no, it's just for the unit themselves.

That also makes it somewhat unfair on Roy since it means Alm benefits more from the effect than he does. Would have been fairer had it simply been +10 BST instead of setting it to a flat 175. (Alm's one is 175 too right? I can't find a source to verify this.)

 

EDIT: Yes, Alm's also sets his BST to 175, so he gets an extra bin out of it than Roy does since his actual BST is 162 vs 169.

Edited by Humanoid

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5 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

That's not how it works, which is probably for the best. There was a lot of concern when Roy first came out and people assumed this was how it'd work, but no, it's just for the unit themselves.

That also makes it somewhat unfair on Roy since it means Alm benefits more from the effect than he does. Would have been fairer had it simply been +10 BST instead of setting it to a flat 175. (Alm's one is 175 too right? I can't find a source to verify this.)

That's a bit underwhelming of a blessing, if that's the case.

Alm's is indeed 175.

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11 minutes ago, Othin said:

I'd summarize it as that cavalry have better player phase combat, while fliers have better player phase mobility and better enemy phase combat.

I think summarizing it like that is far too simplistic. More stats is not generally equatable to better combat since stats are not equally valued on different phases, and because there are no inheritable "final-form" beast weapons in the game, the individual weapon's effects can make a large difference.

All you can really say is exactly what's on the tin: Cavalry block enemy follow-ups on player phase while fliers have better mobility and no enemy-phase stat penalty (and are weak to bows).

 

1 minute ago, Rezzy said:

I think it's more for the allies than the unit themselves.  i.e. Earth blessed units get the BST bonus in the arena this week when Alm is on the team.

The BST bonus applies only to the unit itself, not to blessed allies.

 

2 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

That also makes it somewhat unfair on Roy since it means Alm benefits more from the effect than he does. Would have been fairer had it simply been +10 BST instead of setting it to a flat 175.

The entire point of Duel effects is to be an equalizer for Arena scoring rather than "this effect gives you +1 point per match", which is what it would have been if it were just a +10 to your stat total.

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2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think summarizing it like that is far too simplistic. More stats is not generally equatable to better combat since stats are not equally valued on different phases, and because there are no inheritable "final-form" beast weapons in the game, the individual weapon's effects can make a large difference.

All you can really say is exactly what's on the tin: Cavalry block enemy follow-ups on player phase while fliers have better mobility and no enemy-phase stat penalty (and are weak to bows).

Fair enough.

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2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The BST bonus applies only to the unit itself, not to blessed allies.

 

The entire point of Duel effects is to be an equalizer for Arena scoring rather than "this effect gives you +1 point per match", which is what it would have been if it were just a +10 to your stat total.

I seem to have misread it.  I thought the BST bonus was the main appeal, since pair-up's pretty limited as to when you can actually use it.

I like the BST skills as a concept, I just wish they weren't always 5* locked, and often locked to Legendary or Seasonal units.  Seals would have been nice.

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I'm a bit sad to see Blessed Gardens go because I felt it was the one game PvE content that made sense for a F2P player like myself with a wide variety of units amassed over the years, as far as difficulty goes (well that and Squad Assault). I worked hard to make sure all four elements had a varied and effective amount of units that could tackle most enemy unit combinations. Now, the blessings will mean nothing to me other than serve as a boost to SPP.

People talk about how all other PvE modes are F2P-friendly because some have demonstrated they can be beaten with only free units but that is complete bull. All the guides we see online required massive investment in time for those that put them up there, something most players aren't so ready to invest in such a game. To me, Abyssal maps, particularly those involving reinforcements, cannot be considered F2P-friendly at all.  I don't even bother trying them anymore without a guide.

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57 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

People talk about how all other PvE modes are F2P-friendly because some have demonstrated they can be beaten with only free units but that is complete bull. All the guides we see online required massive investment in time for those that put them up there, something most players aren't so ready to invest in such a game. To me, Abyssal maps, particularly those involving reinforcements, cannot be considered F2P-friendly at all.  I don't even bother trying them anymore without a guide.

I do not think it is bull. What I think is bull is that some players think using guides somehow devalues beating Abyssal. There is no shame in using guides. It might not be an official free resource from Intelligent Systems, but it is still a resource that players should take advantage of.

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If one's only mean to complete a challenge is a step by step guide on how to do it, there is no way the mode is players-friendly. It isn't really playing the game.

For most f2p players, that would be their only mean.

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3 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

If one's only mean to complete a challenge is a step by step guide on how to do it, there is no way the mode is players-friendly. It isn't really playing the game.

For most f2p players, that would be their only mean.

Free players will often have to settle for guides, just like how they often have to settle for Tier 19 or Tier 20 for Arena. If they want bragging rights, they have to pay like everyone else.

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30 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

If one's only mean to complete a challenge is a step by step guide on how to do it, there is no way the mode is players-friendly.

The fact that a step-by-step guide exists that allows pretty much any player to complete the content is pretty much the definition of "player-friendly".

 

36 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

It isn't really playing the game.

This sounds awfully like the no true Scotsman fallacy to me.

Having someone devise the strategy for you to execute is as much playing the game as having someone feed you porridge is eating porridge. Not everyone plays this game for the experience of solving difficult content, and not doing so doesn't disqualify a player from having "played the game".

You can't expect other players to care about the same aspects of the game as you do, and many people seem to be fine with letting others do the hard work so that they can get back to the parts of the game that they enjoy.

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Having someone else devise a strategy for others to replicate and refine have basically been the core attribute of gaming communities since the stone age or some shit. Thats quite literally the entire idea behind "metagame" - a bunch of player finding whats the best option in a given game and using them

 

Theres no "execution window" when it comes to strategy games but thats the limitation of the game's genre so meh

 

The amazing part on the original strats founder is the simple fact that he can actually comes up with it, Hindsight is 20/20 etc.

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

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2 hours ago, Vince777 said:

People talk about how all other PvE modes are F2P-friendly because some have demonstrated they can be beaten with only free units but that is complete bull. All the guides we see online required massive investment in time for those that put them up there, something most players aren't so ready to invest in such a game. To me, Abyssal maps, particularly those involving reinforcements, cannot be considered F2P-friendly at all.  I don't even bother trying them anymore without a guide.

I dunno man, the only reason they put Abyssal maps in there were because there were a lot of people (spenders and non-spenders alike) saying they wanted a greater challenge. That the rewards are purely cosmetic and literally say "I beat thing" supports that. Also people are probably enjoying making guides, or else they wouldn't do it.

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10 hours ago, mampfoid said:

Thanks!

Congrats to your Effie! How'd you build her? 

She’s +Res. I’ve given her both:

Berkut’s Lance (Res)/Rally Def-Res/Aether/Distant Counter/Wary Figther/Panic Ploy

Luncheon Lance+ (Atk)/Swap/Bonfire/Distant Counter/Vantage/Drive Speed

She also has Ward/Hone/Fortify Armor and the non + versions of Brave Lance and Heavy Spear

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15 minutes ago, Javi Blizz said:

She’s +Res. I’ve given her both:

Berkut’s Lance (Res)/Rally Def-Res/Aether/Distant Counter/Wary Figther/Panic Ploy

Luncheon Lance+ (Atk)/Swap/Bonfire/Distant Counter/Vantage/Drive Speed

She also has Ward/Hone/Fortify Armor and the non + versions of Brave Lance and Heavy Spear

Sounds tanky, very nice! 

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2 hours ago, Johann said:

I dunno man, the only reason they put Abyssal maps in there were because there were a lot of people (spenders and non-spenders alike) saying they wanted a greater challenge. That the rewards are purely cosmetic and literally say "I beat thing" supports that. Also people are probably enjoying making guides, or else they wouldn't do it.

I'm almost entirely free to play and I love Abyssal maps. Usually I can't beat them when they first release, but later when they come around again and I have more units/skills I get great joy from beating them.

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I suck at the abyssals but I like that they're there. I'll agree that the grandmaster tactic drills are pretty silly but abyssal maps you can beat your own way and they feel great to beat.

I have a lot of respect for the people who just go in and clear them using whatever.

--

Woke up this morning to find I was hit in AR 7 times while I was asleep. One of them was a -80, and the guy's team was actually insane.

--

1 hour ago, Michelaar said:

Finally got an Owain and fed his blue flame to Roderick. Worth.

I have to see what you're planning with that!

Edited by LunaSaint

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I'm F2P and I've beaten every Abyssal map on its first run, although I think I used a guide for one of them (Azura's). I'd found Infernal maps too easy for the team I've built up and was quite happy to get something harder.

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32 minutes ago, LunaSaint said:

I have to see what you're planning with that!

I'll show a picture later!

Edited by Michelaar

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5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The fact that a step-by-step guide exists that allows pretty much any player to complete the content is pretty much the definition of "player-friendly".

 

No, that is your definition, not "the" definition of what "player-friendly" means as that is that is rather subjective.

If the mode cannot be completed by the great majority of players without the help of a step-by-step guide that does the entire work for them then it just cannot be, by my definition, "player-friendly". You're not really playing the mode. If at least not f2p player-friendly. Most f2p players, with lesser resources,  wouldn't find their way out of Abyssal reinforcement maps even if their lives depended on it. I've no doubt that is less of a problem for players that have invested much money into the game though and the mode likely exists to accomodate their desire for a bigger challenge. Even those with the talent to come up with these f2p guides mention how many hours they spend finding solutions for some of those maps. Phoenixmaster1 is pretty much the best at this at the moment and there aren't too many others that do it/manage it.

Maybe I can also be told I could beat Bobby Fischer by reenacting a chess game he played in which he lost, by just copying the moves that were made against him. I guess I'm technically "playing chess" and "beating Bobby Fischer".

Edited by Vince777

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35 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

No, that is your definition, not "the" definition of what "player-friendly" means as that is that is rather subjective.

If the mode cannot be completed by the great majority of players without the help of a step-by-step guide that does the entire work for them then it just cannot be, by my definition, "player-friendly". You're not really playing the mode. If at least not f2p player-friendly. Most f2p players, with lesser resources,  wouldn't find their way out of Abyssal reinforcement maps even if their lives depended on it. I've no doubt that is less of a problem for players that have invested much money into the game though and the mode likely exists to accomodate their desire for a bigger challenge. Even those with the talent to come up with these f2p guides mention how many hours they spend finding solutions for some of those maps. Phoenixmaster1 is pretty much the best at this at the moment and there aren't too many others that do it/manage it.

Maybe I can also be told I could beat Bobby Fischer by reenacting a chess game he played in which he lost, by just copying the moves that were made against him. I guess I'm technically "playing chess" and "beating Bobby Fischer".

I'm for Abyssal and I think you're against it, but I'm still going to add to your point by referring to the tactics drills which get a lot of flak from people in their advance levels as they require downright esoteric moves to complete. Yet they can still, very obviously, he beaten by following a step by step guide. Heroes is a deterministic game. Everything aside from randomly generated arena/aether raid matchups can be beaten by following a step by step guide. But unless those steps are fair and reasonable, it's not player friendly.

That being said I do like Abyssal maps because of the genuine challenge they provide me. The difference in opinion on that matter comes down either to my tolerance of difficulty compared to you, or perhaps how much more I've invested as a relative free to play user.

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