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41 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Steady Stance will always be active

I thought it was only active on Enemy Phase. I might be misunderstanding the text.

"Grants Def+6 during combat when this unit is attacked."

If it is always active, I do not think they would put that underlined part there.

Edited by XRay
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9 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

and being able to bulk them in an emergency is better than not being able to period.

@Vaximillian

+0 Bride Cordelia [+Atk] (Brave Bow+, Life and Death 3) +0/0/0/0 hits 75 effective Atk against fliers.

+10 Beruka [+Def] (Steady Stance 3) +0/0/6/6 Summoner S Ally S+2 has 55 HP and 60 Def and takes 15 damage per hit for a total of 60 damage. Meaning she's still dead.

Which means Beruka needs to run one of Defense +3, Distant Def 3, or Deflect Missile 3 to survive. The first two stop working pretty damned fast with enemy merges and buffs, and the last works perfectly fine even without Steady Stance 3, but costs you a Sacred Seal slot that could have been used for something more useful, like Attack +3 or Close Def 3.

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29 minutes ago, XRay said:

I thought it was only active on Enemy Phase. I might be misunderstanding the text.

"Grants Def+6 during combat when this unit is attacked."

If it is always active, I do not think they would put that underlined part there.

It should only be active on Enemy Phase. Reverse Armored Blow.

If it were always active, well that'd basically be the Killing Edge series of Stat+ skills.

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@XRay Sorry I wasn’t clear enough. I meant that Steady Stance would proc regardless of range when Beruka is attacked, whereas Close Def only procs at 1-range.

48 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

@Vaximillian

Maths

I’ll check my calcs again, but I used an unmerged Beruka sitting on a fort tile with buffs and Bride Cordelia missed the KO.

Mind I still completely agree with you that bow tanking is still a bit out there for Beruka though.

Edited by MrSmokestack
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1 minute ago, MrSmokestack said:

I’ll check my calcs again, but I used an unmerged Beruka sitting on a fort tile with buffs and Bride Cordelia missed the KO.

I wouldn't count on fortification tiles existing in an emergency.

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46 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I wouldn't count on fortification tiles existing in an emergency.

@Vaximillian Ok, here:

Spoiler

+Atk +0 Brave Bow+ Bride Cordelia does 3x4 to +Def +0 Steady Stance Beruka with Fortify Fliers, Ward Fliers, and a Defense Tile, doing 40 damage total with a Luna proc.

And here's a more relevant matchup for arena runs, especially if you're going for high points:

+Atk +10 Mulagir Brave Lyn +6 / +6 / +0 / +0 vs +Def +0 Steady Stance Beruka with Fortify Fliers, Ward Fliers, S Ally, and a Defense Tile gets 21x2

Also, I apologize for this but I need to clarify some things about my original point, since I wasn't clear enough:

2 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Tanking bows obviously isn’t ideal, especially because her matchup vs Brave Bow is still very shaky, but it’s less common when facing higher-scoring teams, and being able to bulk them in an emergency is better than not being able to period.

 

4 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Only Brave Bows that quad and proc Luna can ORKO her when she is properly buffed, and normal bows aren’t even a problem.

These points are more to underscore her actual bulk rather than suggesting to use her in an unfavorable matchup. Is it possible to survive some of the hardest-hitting bows in the game with a unit that is explicitly weak to them? Yes. Is it ever a good idea? No. That's all I'm trying to say.

Also, the discussion went off on a tangent from the original question. I prefer Steady Stance because it works regardless of range, but Fortress Def 3 is good as a budget option, like you said, because Steady Stance and Close Def are rare skills to begin with.

Edited by MrSmokestack
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2 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

These points are more to underscore her actual bulk rather than suggesting to use her in an unfavorable matchup. Is it possible to survive some of the hardest-hitting bows in the game with a unit that is explicitly weak to them? Yes. Is it ever a good idea? No. That's all I'm trying to say.

Also, the discussion went off on a tangent from the original question. I prefer Steady Stance because it works regardless of range, but Fortress Def 3 is good as a budget option, like you said, because Steady Stance and Close Def are rare skills to begin with.

The main point I was going to get at before I got sidetracked was that her match-ups at range don't matter at all in the first place (and the fact that bows either kill or cripple her for the remainder of the match only serves to strengthen that point), assuming that is build is meant for use by the player and not the AI.

A Quick Riposte user has no business taking attacks that they cannot counterattack unless the attacker deals low enough damage to not break Quick Riposte's HP threshold. This means that Beruka without Distant Counter has no business trying to mitigate damage from bows or magic to begin with.

As such, the only relevant differences between Close Def and Steady Stance are her match-ups against dragons (which are affected by Close Def) and her match-ups against daggers (which are affected by Steady Stance). Between the two, dragons are more relevant for a few reasons, but the biggest one is that Beruka is able to counterattack them (so that even if Beruka is crippled after the round of combat, the opponent is dead instead of alive). Because of this, I would say that Close Def is preferable to Steady Stance.

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2 hours ago, Jingle Jangle said:

Considering Fjorm's stats, how good Ice mirror will be on her? I wonder if her skill will have synergy with deflect sacred skills.

I am going to assume her neutral stats are 39/30/31/30/34 based on the video.

What other Specials do you want to her to use?

With Distant Defense and Deflect Missile, Fjorm will be able to tank BH!Lyn using Brave Bow, but she will be crippled; she can also tank Reinhardt, but I do not think she can counter kill him. To counter kill Reinhardt, you would need Deflect Magic, although Fjorm would not be able to tank BH!Lyn.

Edited by XRay
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When buying orbs, is there a particular pack that's most cost efficient? I feel like I remember reading that the most expensive pack isn't actually the best price when buying in bulk, but I'm not sure, and I don't remember which one is the best if so.

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1 minute ago, DefaultBeep said:

When buying orbs, is there a particular pack that's most cost efficient? I feel like I remember reading that the most expensive pack isn't actually the best price when buying in bulk, but I'm not sure, and I don't remember which one is the best if so.

In the US the most cost-efficient pack is the 75 orb pack. While in Europe, the 23-orbs pack is better. Not sure for other countries in the world, for the best bang to buck ratio.

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31 minutes ago, XRay said:

she can also tank Reinhardt, but I do not think she can counter kill him. To counter kill Reinhardt, you would need Deflect Magic, although Fjorm would not be able to tank BH!Lyn.

I'm not seeing how she can tank Reinhardt but fail to counter kill him in a way where Deflect Magic would make a difference.

She does the same damage back to Reinhardt (assuming Shield Pulse to get Ice Mirror charged immediately) regardless of Deflect Magic.

 

12 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

@Ice Dragon Alright, that makes more sense now. Thanks for explaining it.

My fault entirely for not getting back to my main point after I got sidetracked.

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27 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

In the US the most cost-efficient pack is the 75 orb pack. While in Europe, the 23-orbs pack is better. Not sure for other countries in the world, for the best bang to buck ratio.

Cool, thanks! I probably should've specified my region first, haha. I am in the US, so that's good to know. And kinda comforting, since that's the pack that I normally buy anyway.

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45 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not seeing how she can tank Reinhardt but fail to counter kill him in a way where Deflect Magic would make a difference.

She does the same damage back to Reinhardt (assuming Shield Pulse to get Ice Mirror charged immediately) regardless of Deflect Magic.

I think Ice Mirror only deals back damage that was reduced by skills, according to the wiki.

I am using the following set up in the calculator, so you can double check it.

BH!Lyn +Atk 5*+10
Brave Bow, Luna
Swift Sparrow, Sacae's Blessing
Hone Cavalry Buff

Reinhardt +Atk 5*+10
Dire Thunder, Moonbow
Death Blow
Quickened Pulse (I just reduce the cool down to 1), Hone Cavalry Buff

Custom Lance Infantry 39/30(+16=46)/31/30/34
Gradivus, Sacred Cowl
Distant Def, Shield Pulse
Deflect Magic/Deflect Missile/Nothing
(I also set the cooldown to 1 since Shield Pulse does not seem to reduce the cool down automatically in the calculator.)

Reinhardt initiating on Custom without Sacred Cowl. Damage reduced is 0. Reinhardt wins, so Custom cannot counter.

Spoiler
  • Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist gains 6 attack by initiating combat [Death Blow 3].
  • Custom gains 6 defense for getting attacked by a blue tome user [Distant Def 3].
  • Custom gains 6 resistance for getting attacked by a blue tome user [Distant Def 3].
  • Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist attacks. Opponent reduces damage inflicted by 5 [Shield Pulse 3]. 15 damage dealt.
    Custom HP: 39 → 24
  • Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist attacks again immediately [Dire Thunder]. Resolve combat as if opponent suffered a 30% defense/resistance reduction [Moonbow]. Opponent reduces damage inflicted by 5 [Shield Pulse 3]. 27 damage dealt.
    Custom HP: 24 → 0

.Reinhardt initiating on Custom with Sacred Cowl. Damage reduced is 9. Reinhardt has 27 HP remaining, so if Sacred Cowl is Ice Mirror, Reinhardt should have 18 HP remaining.

Spoiler
  • Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist gains 6 attack by initiating combat [Death Blow 3].
  • Custom gains 6 defense for getting attacked by a blue tome user [Distant Def 3].
  • Custom gains 6 resistance for getting attacked by a blue tome user [Distant Def 3].
  • Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist attacks. 20 damage dealt.
    Custom HP: 39 → 19
  • Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist attacks again immediately [Dire Thunder]. Resolve combat as if opponent suffered a 30% defense/resistance reduction [Moonbow]. Opponent reduces damage inflicted from 2 spaces away by 30% [Sacred Cowl]. Opponent reduces damage inflicted by 5 [Shield Pulse 3]. 18 damage dealt.
    Custom HP: 19 → 1
  • Custom counter-attacks, ignoring distance [Gradivus]. 15 damage dealt.
    Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist HP: 42 → 27

Reinhardt initiating on Custom with Sacred Cowl and Deflect Magic. Damage reduced is 27. Reinhardt has 27 HP remaining, so if Sacred Cowl is Ice Mirror, Reinhardt should be dead.

Spoiler
  • Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist gains 6 attack by initiating combat [Death Blow 3].
  • Custom gains 6 defense for getting attacked by a blue tome user [Distant Def 3].
  • Custom gains 6 resistance for getting attacked by a blue tome user [Distant Def 3].
  • Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist attacks. 20 damage dealt.
    Custom HP: 39 → 19
  • Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist attacks again immediately [Dire Thunder]. Resolve combat as if opponent suffered a 30% defense/resistance reduction [Moonbow]. Opponent reduces damage inflicted from 2 spaces away by 30% [Sacred Cowl]. Opponent reduces damage from consecutive attack by 80%. Opponent reduces damage inflicted by 5 [Shield Pulse 3]. 0 damage dealt.
    Custom HP: 19 → 19
  • Custom counter-attacks, ignoring distance [Gradivus]. 15 damage dealt.
    Reinhardt, Thunder's Fist HP: 42 → 27

 

 

Edited by XRay
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43 minutes ago, XRay said:

I am using the following set up in the calculator, so you can double check it.

Cooldown should be zero. Ice Mirror has a cooldown of 2, and Shield Pulse reduces the cooldown by 2 at the beginning of the first turn.

This means Ice Mirror never activates at the same time as Deflect Magic or Reinhardt's Moonbow if this is the first round of combat for both units.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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6 hours ago, mampfoid said:

I remember someone mentioned it would be great to get a +SPD Maria. Now I pulled a +SPD -HP Maria but I don't know how to salvage that greatness ... 

Dazzling Staff or Wrathful Staff would probably be a good start.

Attack +3 or Speed +3 as A slot. If you just want to go for a Dazzling build, then maybe Fortress Def for more survivability.

For team support, C slot can be Fortify Res if on a budget and using bladetomers. If you're fancy, maybe a Ploy skill like Spd Ploy or Atk Ploy.

That said maybe let's wait until the update to see what weapon and healing skill best suits her.

Edited by mcsilas
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6 hours ago, mampfoid said:

I remember someone mentioned it would be great to get a +SPD Maria. Now I pulled a +SPD -HP Maria but I don't know how to salvage that greatness ... 

Oh, I had missed this, but that might've actually been me who said that, so I should probably help out. For the build I want to to make, she definitely need Wrathful Staff, although if you're willing to part with a Bride Lyn, Dazzling Staff wouldn't be a bad choice either. With +Spd and Attack+3 in her A slot (or +Atk and Speed+3), she can hit 30/37 offenses without a weapon, which is one of the best possible offensive stats a healer can get. Otherwise, what weapon, assist, and special is best for her may change after the update, like mcsilas said, so any other advice I could give may be rendered moot by then.

I will say though: even with +Spd, Maria still suffers from the big problem of being a healer. She can be one of the best offensive healers in the game, but that's still quite a few steps below the more average mages out there, so she may not be worth much investment if you don't care about her very much. The upcoming update will certainly help her, but I highly doubt it will push her up terribly far, so building her is really a matter of whether you actually want to or not.

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@XRay

Running things on equal ground:

+10 Reinhardt [+Atk, -Spd] (Dire Thunder, Moonbow, Death Blow 3, Quickened Pulse) +6/6/0/0 has 42/60/25/31/x.
+10 Fjorm [+Atk, -HP] (Leiptr, Ice Mirror, Distant Def 3, Shield Pulse 3, Distant Def 3) +0/0/0/0 has 40/50/35/x/50.

Ice Mirror activates on the first hit of every pair of attacks from Reinhardt. Moonbow activates on the second hit of every pair of attacks from Reinhardt.

Reinhardt hits for 10 damage normally. Moonbow adds 15 damage. Ice Mirror reduces damage by 3. Shield Pulse 3 reduces damage by 5. Fjorm hits for 19 damage normally.

Reinhardt hits for 2 + 25 = 27 damage. Fjorm retaliates for 27 damage. If Reinhardt has Lancebreaker 3, Reinhardt follows up with 2 + 25 = 27 damage to finish off Fjorm. If Reinhardt does not have Lancebreaker 3, Fjorm follows up with 19 damage to finish off Reinhardt.

+10 Reinhardt [+Atk, -Spd] (Dire Thunder, Moonbow, Death Blow 3, Quickened Pulse) +6/6/0/0 has 42/60/25/31/x.
+10 Fjorm [+Atk, -HP] (Leiptr, Ice Mirror, Distant Def 3, Shield Pulse 3, Deflect Magic 3) +0/0/0/0 has 40/50/35/x/44.

Ice Mirror activates on the first hit of every pair of attacks from Reinhardt. Moonbow activates on the second hit of every pair of attacks from Reinhardt.

Reinhardt hits for 16 damage normally. Moonbow adds 13 damage. Ice Mirror reduces damage by 4. Shield Pulse 3 reduces damage by 5. Fjorm hits for 19 damage normally.

Reinhardt hits for 7 + 6 =13 damage. Fjorm retaliates for 28 damage. If Reinhardt has Lancebreaker 3, Reinhardt follows up with 7 + 6 = 13 damage and doesn't kill Fjorm. If Reinhardt does not have Lancebreaker 3, Fjorm follows up with 19 damage to finish off Reinhardt.

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44 minutes ago, Kaoxt said:

Just wondering would a Neutral Brave Ike overall be better then a +Atk / - Res Bike? I feel his resistance will be too low for mages etc.

-Res >>> Neutral, because you're getting either Atk, Spd, Def, or Hp for it, all of which are more valuable.

Urvan is such an amazing weapon that HP is valued as highly as Def and Res. (A double deals 1.2 damage to Ike, i.e. 1 more hp effectively reduces damage by .83, for magic AND physical, compared to res reducing damage by 1 for magic only.) Defense and speed both deals with his secondary weakness, which is sword users doubling him to death---not a huge flaw, given that sword users are melee, and his sky high defense. Atk is excellent because punching harder is great.

 

Ike's main weakness is getting OHKOd by mages (because the second hit will only do 20%, which is basically irrelevant), and 3 more or less res doesn't really affect that. Basically, just compare +Atk/-Res Ike with Hp + 3 seal and a neutral Ike with Atk +1 seal and you can see why the former is way more min-maxed:

 

+Atk/-Res

Marginally less magical bulk (Ike dies .5 Atk sooner, that's .5, as in, this Ike will die half a point of attack sooner than the neutral Ike. In most cases, the two Ike dies at the same time, depending on rounding.)

Loads more physical bulk (.5 atk more vs. brave weapons or being doubled back when Ike initiates, 1.5 atk more when the enemy initiates and doubles, 3 atk more when it's a single hit).

2 more Atk (3 - 1 = 2)

 

Neutral Ike:

I sure hope dying .5 Atk later was worth 2 Atk on Ike and loads of physical bulk.

 

I'm neglecting dragons here because dragons are a joke. They would be the classic counter to B!Ike, given that they can hit Ike's weaker defense stat while ignoring Urvan, but dragonstones are kind of a joke, given that they're the worst weapon type in the game on the second worst movement type.

Edited by DehNutCase
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6 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

-Res >>> Neutral, because you're getting either Atk, Spd, Def, or Hp for it, all of which are more valuable.

Urvan is such an amazing weapon that HP is valued as highly as Def and Res. (A double deals 1.2 damage to Ike, i.e. 1 more hp effectively reduces damage by .83, for magic AND physical, compared to res reducing damage by 1 for magic only.) Defense and speed both deals with his secondary weakness, which is sword users doubling him to death---not a huge flaw, given that sword users are melee, and his sky high defense. Atk is excellent because punching harder is great.

 

Ike's main weakness is getting OHKOd by mages (because the second hit will only do 20%, which is basically irrelevant), and 3 more or less res doesn't really affect that. Basically, just compare +Atk/-Res Ike with Hp + 3 seal and a neutral Ike with Atk +1 seal and you can see why the former is way more min-maxed:

 

+Atk/-Res

Marginally less magical bulk (Ike dies .5 Atk sooner, that's .5, as in, this Ike will die half a point of attack sooner than the neutral Ike. In most cases, the two Ike dies at the same time, depending on rounding.)

Loads more physical bulk (.5 atk more vs. brave weapons or being doubled back when Ike initiates, 1.5 atk more when the enemy initiates and doubles, 3 atk more when it's a single hit).

2 more Atk (3 - 1 = 2)

 

Neutral Ike:

I sure hope dying .5 Atk later was worth 2 Atk on Ike and loads of physical bulk.

 

I'm neglecting dragons here because dragons are a joke. They would be the classic counter to B!Ike, given that they can hit Ike's weaker defense stat while ignoring Urvan, but dragonstones are kind of a joke, given that they're the worst weapon type in the game on the second worst movement type.

Thank you that clears up a lot!

 

Also do you have any experience with Steady Breath on Sword Ike? Been contemplating adding it to him over Heavy Blade.

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4 minutes ago, Kaoxt said:

Thank you that clears up a lot!

 

Also do you have any experience with Steady Breath on Sword Ike? Been contemplating adding it to him over Heavy Blade.

I don't even have sword Ike, but the idea's sound.

 

Steady + quickened pulse + bonfire + wrath = one Wrath fueled bonfire counter for anyone that failed to OHKO, which seems nice. (=Ike has 35 Atk, 32 defense, so that's 35 + 16 + (32 + 4)/2 +10 = 79 damage for anyone who fails to OHKO, which should be a decent amount of the cast.

 

My main problem with that build is that it turns him into a worse Reinhardt. -blade Reinhardt with CC, full buffs, and Atk +3 seal does 32 + 13 + 30 + 3= 78 damage, and gets to run Vantage in the B-slot rather than Wrath, while keeping his 5 reach offenses.

Of course, comparing anyone to the best unit in the game makes them look bad, and Ike can pick up 4 Atk worth of Hone Atk buff for 83 damage, but that's only for one combat, and he doesn't get vantage. (He does get to use the Wrath +1 special charge per turn to Bonfire other things on offense, which is very nice, but he's shackled by his infantry mobility.)

 

Basically: It gives Ike a very nice counter-kill niche (if you don't OHKO Ike you're going to get OHKOd back, meaning his 32 speed is far less of an issue, anyone who has 37 speed is just going to straight up die to 79 damage), except the build's fairly pricey. A big problem because CC is about as expensive as Steady Breath (Takumi vs. B!Ike),  even ignoring Neph for Wrath, and Rein does the expensive build loads better.

If you like Ike and hate Reinhardt, though, the ability to counter-kill anything that doesn't OHKO is a damn nice niche, while also being able to OHKO pretty much everything that Ike can reach afterwards, since you can just run around waiting for Bonfire to charge.

 

Regarding a more 'typical' use of Steady Breath, it's pretty nice as a 'every physical unit that tries to fight me will cry' kind of build, but suffers from the fact that the killer weapon -1 cd effect is actually pretty key for Steady Breath to be amazing. Aether going down to 4cd means Ike gets to aether in a get hit, counter hit, counter hit chain, or a brave hit, counter hit chain. You can run Ignis, of course, but that'll leave Ike mostly spent after one combat, unless you run Renewal or Wrath---meaning no QR to guarantee doubles on defense. Quickened pulse can fix the cd issue, of course, but only for one combat unless Wrath is involved.

Might be fun to run Noontime with it, since it's going down to 2cd, meaning Ike will have it every single hit. But that'd strictly be a 'fun' build, not a 'good' build. (At least, not good enough to be worth a 5* skill investment.)

 

tl;dr It feels like too much of an investment for a minimal gain. It does open up a few niches Ike didn't have before, but, well, 5* skills are damn costly.

In a theoretical world where I loved Ike---as a character, rather than a BST spread and a Prf---I'd probably build him into a Steady Breath, Wrath, Quick Pulse, Bonfire counter-killing machine, but I would also know that I built that Ike because of favoritism, not because it's the best use of resources.

It does scale very nicely with +levels and summoner support, though, because the build likes not being OHKOd, which +Hp, +Def, +Res all help with, and enjoys being able to OHKO more things, which +Def and +Atk helps with.

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1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

-Res >>> Neutral, because you're getting either Atk, Spd, Def, or Hp for it, all of which are more valuable.

Urvan is such an amazing weapon that HP is valued as highly as Def and Res. (A double deals 1.2 damage to Ike, i.e. 1 more hp effectively reduces damage by .83, for magic AND physical, compared to res reducing damage by 1 for magic only.) Defense and speed both deals with his secondary weakness, which is sword users doubling him to death---not a huge flaw, given that sword users are melee, and his sky high defense. Atk is excellent because punching harder is great.

 

Ike's main weakness is getting OHKOd by mages (because the second hit will only do 20%, which is basically irrelevant), and 3 more or less res doesn't really affect that. Basically, just compare +Atk/-Res Ike with Hp + 3 seal and a neutral Ike with Atk +1 seal and you can see why the former is way more min-maxed:

 

+Atk/-Res

Marginally less magical bulk (Ike dies .5 Atk sooner, that's .5, as in, this Ike will die half a point of attack sooner than the neutral Ike. In most cases, the two Ike dies at the same time, depending on rounding.)

Loads more physical bulk (.5 atk more vs. brave weapons or being doubled back when Ike initiates, 1.5 atk more when the enemy initiates and doubles, 3 atk more when it's a single hit).

2 more Atk (3 - 1 = 2)

 

Neutral Ike:

I sure hope dying .5 Atk later was worth 2 Atk on Ike and loads of physical bulk.

 

I'm neglecting dragons here because dragons are a joke. They would be the classic counter to B!Ike, given that they can hit Ike's weaker defense stat while ignoring Urvan, but dragonstones are kind of a joke, given that they're the worst weapon type in the game on the second worst movement type.

What would your typical Brave Ike build look like?

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