Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[MediocreLee]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what to give Palla?  I thought about giving her a Killing Edge or Brave Sword and keep Moonbow.  But I'm not quite sure what to give her otherwise.

[AW91]

Hej people!

What do you think, is best for Hector´s "C"?

Spur Spd 3,

Hone Spd 3,

Spur Atk 3,

Hone Atk 3

I already have learned him Pivot and Vantage 3 - so only the "C" is missing.

And maybe somebody could tell me, what character I should next head for? -> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6tzltMx1OAZcFJ2d1RyUVFvY2c

Edith: Shit, I see that Pavise is not the best thing for Hector - what would you recommend?

Moonbow, Bonfire

Edited April 11, 2017 by AW91

[pianime94]

7 hours ago, MrSmokestack said:

Had this for a while in coming, but it's also for @BANRYU to help him out with his own Reinhardt.

Before we begin, for those who may be interested in the other unit analyses I've written, you can check them out here:

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Previous Unit Analyses:
Corrin (M)- https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/70033-skill-inheritance-discussion/&do=findComment&comment=4769469
Henry- https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/70033-skill-inheritance-discussion/&do=findComment&comment=4772114
Fae- https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/70033-skill-inheritance-discussion/&do=findComment&comment=4777577

Other Builds:
Niles- http://feheroes.wiki/Niles/Builds
Ninian- http://feheroes.wiki/Ninian/Builds

Skill Inheritance FAQ: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/70240-not-sure-what-skill-to-inherit-or-who-to-inherit-it-from-read-this-please-read-before-posting/

Now onto the analysis:

Background

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In Fire Emblem: Thracia 776, Reinhardt is a mage knight hailing from Friege, one of six dukedoms in the kingdom of Grannvale on the Jugdral continent. He is both the older brother of Olwen, another mage knight who once wished nothing more than to follow in his footsteps, and a retainer to the sage Ishtar, whom he watched over since she was a young girl. In Thracia 776 and Genealogy of the Holy War, Mage Knights stand out as an elite among the elite, being swordfighters that are especially  proficient in the use of magic and staves. If that wasn't enough, they also ride a mount onto the battlefield, which gives them overwhelming offensive prescence, especially in numbers.

That latter bit is an apt summary of how Reinhardt functions as a unit in Heroes. Until his inclusion, mage cavaliers were held back by their limited offensive potential, due to their exceptionally poor stat caps. However, Reinhardt, and Olwen to a lesser extent--stood out with the use of the Prf tome, Dire Thunder. Guaranteeing a second attack in any round of combat he initiated, Reinhardt quickly stood out for his unique combination of offensive prescence and effective range, which was magnified with the help of a Dancer, especially on more open maps where he is more at liberty to ride as he pleases. In tandem with Gunter, Reinhardt proved a massive boon to the cavalry meta, which up until that point lacked a solid ranged option outside of Leo or Cecilia, who were at the time considered underwhelming at best. Even outside of a cavalry-oriented team, Reinhardt faces little competition for his niche as a player-phase nuke, being a blue unit with a wide effective range that targeted resistance, rendering many of the usual counters--namely high defense enemies such as Takumi--dud units.

Default Reinhardt

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Neutral Stats:
38 / 32 / 23 / 27 / 25

Starting Skills:
Dire Thunder
Vantage 3
Goad Cavalry
Blazing Thunder

Unfortunately, a low base stat total is a definite weakness of cavalier-oriented teams, and Reinhardt is no exception. His stat total sits at an abysmal 145, just one point higher than the lowest in the game--144, which Olwen has. It also leaves him as a liability defensively, being ORKO'd by a variety of even red units, who have the added advantage of doubling him. Dire Thunder reduces his stat score even further, cutting his speed by 5 points and leaving him at 18, which is only eclipsed by Zephiel at 16.

Overall, Reinhardt's best stat roll is +Atk -Spd, bumping him up to 44 Atk and preventing his other stats from going to waste, low as they might be already.

On the subject of player phase nukes, Klein is oftentimes cited due to his comparable burst damage, similar range, and a color that complements his role. However, it can be argued that Reinhardt outperforms when given the same or similar resources due to targeting enemy resistance and having a wider attacking range to work with, although his lower stat total still counts against him.

As would be expected from a banner unit (several exceptions notwithstanding, of course), Reinhardt's default kit works well right out of the box, though it is most effective with a cavalry team. In general use, Spur Atk 2 should suffice. Blazing Thunder seems to play off his ability to rapidly reduce skill cooldown by way of consecutive attacks, though its far and away from being the best skill to take advantage of such a strategy. Despite Vantage generally being considered a good skill, it does not work well with a unit like Reinhardt at all, since they lack the bulk to last even one round of combat.

At 5* Lv. 40, a neutral Reinhardt ORKO's every red unit except Caeda, Eliwood, Leo, Raigh, and Tiki (Young), and among these only Raigh can KO him on the counter with his anti-cavalry tome. All live with 6 or less HP, however, and naturally this means that a +Atk roll will provide exactly the +3 damage necessary to KO them. For Reinhardts without +Atk, this can be replicated with a +4 buff from Hone, Spur, or Rally Atk, as well as Goad or Hone Cavalry. Against blue units, his matchup spread is less favorable without the appropriate buffs and a +Atk roll--and Death Blow, which will be mentioned later. Of these, only Nowi and Ursula can KO on the counter. Of the two, only Nowi can survive Reinhardt having both +Atk and a Hone buff. Lastly, when accounting for the low resistance of most green units, his matchups against them are predictably poor. Against colorless, a neutral Reinhardt cannot KO any staff user, but can ORKO every archer except Rebecca, Klein, and Setsuna. Of the dagger users, only Jakob, Felicia, and Kagero have high enough resistance to avoid being KO'd, though Felicia shrugs him off much better than the other two.

With the introduction of Skill Inheritance, Reinhardt has only improved, gaining access to lethal player phase skills such as Death Blow and the Weaponbreakers, which allow him to ORKO units that would otherwise have survived him previously. It also makes Reinhardt less exclusive to the cavalry meta than he was before. Among his inheritance options, Death Blow the single most important skill he can inherit, especially if you have a limited resource pool and need to settle with a more budget build, as it is required along with a +Atk roll to net ORKO's on the majority of blue units. In fact, with Lancebreaker and Death Blow 3 alone, a neutral, unbuffed Reinhardt can ORKO every blue unit except Nowi, Jagen, Effie, and Ninian, who all survive with 5 HP at most. Include a +Atk roll, and Reinhardt can ORKO every single blue, red, and colorless unit in the game completely by himself, with the exception of Felicia, who survives with just 10 HP.

To Review:
+Guaranteed doubleattack when attacking thanks to his Dire Thunder
+High movement combined with 2-range
+Blue
-Frail in both defenses
-Poor speed
-Low BST for arena scoring

Example Set

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Reinhardt @ Dire Thunder (+Atk -Spd) 38 / 35 / 20 / 27 / 23
Death Blow 3
Lancebreaker 3
Spur Atk 3
Positioning Skill
Luna

Bonfire adds 13 damage (27 * 0.5)
Draconic Aura adds 15 damage (44 + 6 * 0.3)
For Luna to match the damage dealt by both skills, the target would need at least 30 resistance, which among green units includes Fae, Hawkeye, Camilla, Julia, and Sheena

This set allows Reinhardt to play to his strengths as a player phase nuke with wide range in a more general team composition. Lancebreaker is mostly a luxury, but Death Blow as mentioned previously is vital for netting many ORKO's against blue units that Reinhardt would otherwise miss; this more so the case if your Reinhardt is not +Atk. Spur Attack is listed specifically for the last slot since Reinhardt has the chain mostly complete already, which eases inheritance requirements, though this slot is flexible and can be replaced with whichever one your team needs the most. Threaten Resistance or even Savage Blow can also be considered. Like the C Passive, the Assist is also flexible. The main ones under consideration are Reposition and Draw Back, which can be used both offensively and defensively, albeit with a different set of possible movement combinations. Lastly, Luna, Bonfire, and Draconic Aura are all good fits for the special slot; being 3-CD special skills, they will proc every other round of combat. Among these, the most optimal is Draconic Aura, since it gives Reinhardt an additional edge against green units through enabling ORKO's against Chrom (Spring Festival), Beruka, Michalis, Raven, Bartre, and even Hector when it's ready. Compared to Draconic Aura, Luna misses the KO against Hector, who can then proceed to OHKO on the counter. Against Julia, she stands to KO on the counter, but Luna leaves her with 14 health as opposed to Draconic Aura's 17.

Reinhardt beating Hector through WTD is impressive, though as you can imagine it is incredibly difficult to pull off. Even a Hector +10, unless he is +Res, can be ORKO'd with a +Atk, Death Blow 3, and Hone Atk-buffed Reinhardt when Draconic Aura is ready.

For those wishing to run Horse Emblem (patent-pending), the only change that needs to be made is replacing the C Passive with Hone or Goad Cavalry. Generally, the ideal cavalry team composition has three Goad Cavalry units and one Hone Cavalry, granting the Hone Cavalry unit +12 Atk / Spd, and any of the Goad Cavalry ones +14 Atk / Spd. With 58 Atk, Reinhardt can ORKO nearly all green units with the exception of Arthur, Fae, Hawkeye, Julia, Narcian, and Sheena. 

Closing Thoughts
Overall, Reinhardt stands out as one of the most potent player-phase mages in the game, defining the cavalry meta almost single-handedly. His offensive presence, derived from a very unique and highly potent set of attributes--high movement, brave attack, and blue color all rolled into one--is unrivaled. With some skill inheritance, he has no trouble fitting into almost any team composition and doing well, though his mediocre stat total not only holds him back defensively but limits the player's potential for arena scores. Despite these two shortcomings, he is not to be underestimated, and is a threat that teams should account for, lest their arena run end prematurely by his hand and the help of a dancer.

Credit to @MaskedAmpharos for personal input including damage calculations.

I honestly think that Growing Thunder is already a good skill for him for variety. Luna feels like an overkill to everything except against green, if we go by your analysis.

Blazing Wind would benefit him the most AoE special-wise, I think. And yeah, his B skill is really flexible but Vantage sometimes nice to have, too.

(Like how he Vantage'd Vantage Vengeance Takumi which would have led to a kill).

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

One thing I'm wondering of people who actually play full cavalry teams:

How often are your units actually close enough to receive the full stacks from the team's Goad Cavalry?

With a full armor team, it's easy to keep all of your units close enough to permanently have 3 stacks of Goad Armor or Ward Armor or a mix, but with a full cavalry team, simply moving a unit its full movement range will move them well out of reach of each other's Goad Cavalry range. Furthermore, keeping your blob always together negates one of cavalry's assets, which is its ability to easily split and un-split itself to take advantage of the enemy AI.

To my experience (using vanilla cavalry team), it depends on the maps. Most of the time, I could make 2 units stay comfortably in the goad/ward range for bursting, but If it's cramped map like the subway or bridge, I usually just make do with Hone.

Edited April 11, 2017 by pianime94

[Korath88]

1 hour ago, pianime94 said:

I honestly think that Growing Thunder is already a good skill for him for variety. Luna feels like an overkill to everything except against green, if we go by your analysis.

Blazing Wind would benefit him the most AoE special-wise, I think. And yeah, his B skill is really flexible but Vantage sometimes nice to have, too.

Reinhardt shouldn't be taking too many hits on enemy phase, so charging up that skill would require attacking on player phase, and given his power, by the time he charges up a growing/blazing skill, there will likely be no one left to use it on.

[pianime94]

I did say for variety, but that's a fine point to mention nonetheless. I just feel like it's a good enough of a special for him since he's already killing most of the thing without Luna. In any case, let me do a quick calculation for Luna Reinhardt a bit.

.....

If you insist on Luna Reinhardt, which when combined with One Punch Wood and Blade Cecilia....

-shudders-

Julia is just too much of a Res tank.

Goodbye, one of my Catria.

Edited April 11, 2017 by pianime94

[mcsilas]

5 hours ago, TheTuckingFypo said:

Well then. I guess that can be played around with then... hmmm...

I'll be back...

Well there is a thread with various healer builds that could give you ideas here:

8 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Odin... has problems. He dumped too much points into Hp, and suffers from the fact that his def/res are simultaneously too good and not good enough. He gets +4 with a boon to both (which sounds good, until you remember there's only 1 boon).

His speed is middling, at 32---fast enough to avoid a lot of doubles IF you give it a boon.

His attack is unsalvagable, but he has a _Blade tome, and even if you swapped it out, his bulk means that he can afford to take time to fish for kills.

......

A Raven Renewal\Quick Riposte T-Adept build would put in work with the right special, but desperately needs -Spd or +Spd, (yeah, Odin's actually TOO fast to leverage his bulk for faster special charge, while also being too slow to double) and +Def. Of course, Robin already does this, so use Robin instead.

So +Atk/-Def is no good then I guess (I thought maybe +Atk and Blarblade would have a bit of synergy). The only other ones I have are +HP/-Spd and +Res/-HP...I guess if you're saying his neutral Speed is too fast for bulk then maybe I should use the -Spd one?

Well my 3 star Robin doesn't have that good of a boon bane combo either anyway, so I'm not too fussed about using Robin over Odin right now. Actually would Fury + Renewal help Odin with his meh stats? I guess more HP means he doesn't die as fast to Fury damage?

Or, if Odin's HP is the best, how about a support semi-healer build then?

Blarblade+

Moonbow 

Reciprocal Aid

A- HP+5/Triangle Adept

B- Renewal

C- Hone Attack/Speed, Breath of Life, Savage Blow

Even if his Attack is low, I guess there is at least more chance of damage (either through buffed Blarblade/TA weapon advantage) compared to a staff (which is divided by 2)? Moonbow as a proc because he already has it, and I can't think of better ones.

For what its worth, Odin has 3 more HP and Speed than Robin, so swapping his HP with Reciprocal Aid is just me trying to think of some role for him. If I'm using the -Spd/+HP version of him, then he ties with neutral Speed Robin (is this slow enough for faster special charge?). If HP boon, 46 HP is high for a blue unit (43 if neutral). For reference, Sharena has the same HP/Spd stat as Odin (obviously she's superior with a better weapon and offenses, and she has 29 Def/22 Res compared to Odin's 'balanced' 25 Def/Res). If we're comparing with other blue character's neutral HP stats, Gwendolyn, Effie, Ephraim and Nowi have more HP stats (so Odin has the highest for blue tomes FWIW).

So this Odin isn't meant to be a tank like Robin, but an HP swapper who ideally only attacks from afar when need be. HP swapping also means he will be side to side with units. He supports the team and with Blarblade, the team supports him if he needs to attack. Being adjacent to a Hone skill user is best, and if Odin has a Hone skill himself, he can support his adjacent allies in return.

Alternatively, if you want to focus on more healing, Breath of Life is an additional healing skill that heals all allies adjacent to him. For maximum healing gimmick, give him a Blue Egg+? (lol) Otherwise, Savage Blow for some guaranteed splash damage.

---------

Anyway, I've managed to pull a Hinoka, although sadly she has an Attack bane and has a HP boon, so she's less offensive/more defensive than Cordelia than usual . She'll probably be a better defensive user of Triangle Adept compared to Cordelia, so she's better at fighting sword users...

Maybe something like Killer Lance+,  Moonbow/Escutcheon, Triangle Adept, Wings of Mercy/Lancebreaker? Although that's a lot of skills to find, any other suggestions?

I mean she still has better attack than Catria, with the extra HP sort of making up for less defenses/speed. The only Pegasus Knight with more HP than her is a +HP Florina, so I guess another semi-healer build is another option?

----------

Also how would go about fixing a -Spd Raven? Is Brave Axe/Life or Death even worth it with a Speed bane? Or should I give him something like Darting Blow/Death Blow?

Edited April 11, 2017 by mcsilas

[Kaden]

Well, guess I learned that ranged units cannot have any defensive special including Aegis or Sacred Cowl which make total sense for them. 

So, while Escutcheon has good synergy with Brave and Killer weapons, what about Pavise? I don't really know who would want it. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Kaden

[MaskedAmpharos]

6 hours ago, pianime94 said:

I honestly think that Growing Thunder is already a good skill for him for variety. Luna feels like an overkill to everything except against green, if we go by your analysis.

Blazing Wind would benefit him the most AoE special-wise, I think. And yeah, his B skill is really flexible but Vantage sometimes nice to have, too.

(Like how he Vantage'd Vantage Vengeance Takumi which would have led to a kill).

To my experience (using vanilla cavalry team), it depends on the maps. Most of the time, I could make 2 units stay comfortably in the goad/ward range for bursting, but If it's cramped map like the subway or bridge, I usually just make do with Hone.

I wouldn't quite say Luna is overkill. 

With a +Atk nature and Death Blow 3, Luna helps Rein secure the OHKO on neutral Cecilia, Chrom (Spring), Merric, Michalis, Nino, and Raven (among others), as well as -HP or -Res Hector. (Though with a Hone Cavalry buff, he secures kills on every neutral green except Fae, Julia, and Sheena (who all live with 5 or less HP) and the Emerald Axe users.) 

Also, Blazing/Growing skills are even more overkill, with the primary difference being that they won't activate until Rein's 3rd round of combat (assuming he isn't taking damage, and he really shouldn't be) while Luna activates on the second round of combat, which makes it a lot more applicable to your average Arena match. 

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[MrSmokestack]

40 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I wouldn't quite say Luna is overkill. 

With a +Atk nature and Death Blow 3, Luna helps Rein secure the OHKO on neutral Cecilia, Chrom (Spring), Merric, Michalis, Nino, and Raven (among others), as well as -HP or -Res Hector. (Though with a Hone Cavalry buff, he secures kills on every neutral green except Fae, Julia, and Sheena (who all live with 5 or less HP) and the Emerald Axe users.) 

Also, Blazing/Growing skills are even more overkill, with the primary difference being that they won't activate until Rein's 3rd round of combat (assuming he isn't taking damage, and he really shouldn't be) while Luna activates on the second round of combat, which makes it a lot more applicable to your average Arena match. 

 

Going to add @pianime94 that Draconic Aura outdamages Luna most of the time, as few units have more than 30 Resistance. Luna also fails to ORKO Hector, while Draconic Aura does. In fact, Draconic Aura continues to ORKO Hector with the listed set at +10 neutral with a Hone Atk buff.

And as other people have mentioned already, having a 5-CD skill is about the same as having no special skill at all, considering there will usually only be one unit left on the enemy team by the time Reinhardt has it ready, assuming he picked up the other three KO's without any help.

Edited April 11, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[pianime94]

1 hour ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I wouldn't quite say Luna is overkill. 

With a +Atk nature and Death Blow 3, Luna helps Rein secure the OHKO on neutral Cecilia, Chrom (Spring), Merric, Michalis, Nino, and Raven (among others), as well as -HP or -Res Hector. (Though with a Hone Cavalry buff, he secures kills on every neutral green except Fae, Julia, and Sheena (who all live with 5 or less HP) and the Emerald Axe users.) 

Also, Blazing/Growing skills are even more overkill, with the primary difference being that they won't activate until Rein's 3rd round of combat (assuming he isn't taking damage, and he really shouldn't be) while Luna activates on the second round of combat, which makes it a lot more applicable to your average Arena match. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Going to add @pianime94 that Draconic Aura outdamages Luna most of the time, as few units have more than 30 Resistance. Luna also fails to ORKO Hector, while Draconic Aura does. In fact, Draconic Aura continues to ORKO Hector with the listed set at +10 neutral with a Hone Atk buff.

And as other people have mentioned already, having a 5-CD skill is about the same as having no special skill at all, considering there will usually only be one unit left on the enemy team by the time Reinhardt has it ready, assuming he picked up the other three KO's without any help.

They say three people saying the same essence is a charm. With that, I shall admit to my fallacy. I guess even as a Cavalry main my strategic measures are still lacking eh?

I did say Luna is overkill to everything except green, but I get you guys' point.

So, just clarifying, Draconic Aura is a better choice over Luna? I've got some spares Corrin to inherit from.

Edited April 11, 2017 by pianime94

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

8 hours ago, AW91 said:

Hej people!

What do you think, is best for Hector´s "C"?

Spur Spd 3,

Hone Spd 3,

Spur Atk 3,

Hone Atk 3

I already have learned him Pivot and Vantage 3 - so only the "C" is missing.

And maybe somebody could tell me, what character I should next head for? -> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6tzltMx1OAZcFJ2d1RyUVFvY2c

Edith: Shit, I see that Pavise is not the best thing for Hector - what would you recommend?

Moonbow, Bonfire

I've been getting pretty good use out of just Spur Atk 2 for him, but that's partly because I tend to have my other units working around him a lot. If you find your units are separating from him more often than not, then a Hone might be better. And, of course, pick the buff that your team needs most. I'm kinda torn myself, since Spur Spd would help my Linde every now and then, but Spur Atk has helped everyone here and there. Part of my dilemma comes from Hector also being +Spd, so he would greatly appreciate a Spd buff, given that 32 Spd would stop him from being double by quite a few things.

Hector's Atk is already huge, so any bump in damage will secure OHKOs on dangerous non-reds (like Fury 3 Ninos with high merges). The question comes down to uptime, which can be a little tricky. Moonbow's is best, but Armads's QR2 means you might blow it doing massive overkill. Granted, if the opponent also doubles Hector, Bonfire's in the same boat. However, if you were to consider a 4-charge damage proc and you fight something that doesn't double Hector, it won't be charged in time for Vantage OHKO shenanigans.

For my Hector, I took a different direction, as Sol was recommended to me and I've been pretty happy with it. Hector's huge damage output means that the healing is actually rather significant. With an Ardent Sacrifice touch-up from my Linde, Hector can easily be ready to go another round with the last half of the enemy forces (important to me since Linde or Nino leave him in a state where he might not be able to fight it out with some melee greens or blues and the damage procs can be awkward to time for Vantage-proc OHKOs).

[ILikeKirbys]

9 hours ago, SHSL Ninja said:

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what to give Palla?  I thought about giving her a Killing Edge or Brave Sword and keep Moonbow.  But I'm not quite sure what to give her otherwise.

I'm actually curious about this as well, but here's my suggestions for Palla (gonna assume you have 5-Star Level 40 neutral Palla and are giving her the 5-Star + weapons for simplicity's sake):

To be honest, I wouldn't give Palla a Brave Sword+, it just drops her ATK and SPD a bit too low for me (but if you're comfortable with 39 ATK and 26 SPD Palla, then guaranteed Moonbow every time you attack could work... Though I don't feel Moonbow would give you enough extra damage here, but I could be wrong). Killing Edge+ could work tho, it would leave your SPD untouched and give you 42 ATK (which is alright IMO, definitely better than 39), and guarantee a Moonbow (1 Cooldown with the Killing Edge) every time you double (admittedly not that likely without buffs, but if you have buffs you could get Palla to 35 SPD via Hone SPD 3 or 37 via Hone Fliers) or get attacked (though Palla's DEF/RES aren't amazing, they're alright, with 28 DEF/26 RES being able to at least survive a hit from most units I think... However, if you have Fortify DEF/RES then she'll get 32 DEF/30 RES, which is pretty alright, or you could get 34 DEF and 32 RES via Fortify Fliers). Of course, if your team needs a Green counter, then you could just keep the Ruby Sword(+ gives Palla 43 ATK, which, if I'm right about how Triangle Adept works, gets boosted to 60 (60.2, not sure how to round so I'm just gonna round everything down) against Greens, but drops to 25 (25.8) vs Blues, so you would primarily want her to be fighting Greens..., but she'd do very well against them, so if you need something like that, Palla's your lady).

Of course, there are a couple of other options that I feel are worth mentioning. Silver Sword+ doesn't offer any neat effects, but also lacks any drawbacks, and pushes Palla's ATK up to 46 ATK, which is pretty good IMO. The Wo Dao+ might be better tho, since it gives Palla 44 ATK (slightly higher than the Ruby Sword+'s default ATK of 43, and it doesn't fluctuate like the Ruby Sword+'s ATK will, which can be a good or a bad thing depending on who you're up against) and gives an additional 10 damage every time Moonbow activates, which is nice on a skill that activates as often as Moonbow does.

Personally, I would go with either the Killing Edge (if you can either get Palla doubling via buffs or tanky via buffs, guaranteed Moonbow procs on every combat that hits one of those requirements will be great), the Wo Dao (If you have a Karel you're comfortable sacrificing, then Palla would like the slight ATK boost and +10 damage on every Moonbow), or just keep the Ruby Sword (It makes her situational, since Blues now eat her alive with not much hope of retaliation on Palla's part, but it also makes it difficult for Greens to deal a lot of damage to her while she deals a lot of damage to them (assuming I had the calc right a few paragraphs back, Palla will end up with 60 ATK with the Ruby+, which is quite a lot of chip damage if she doesn't double and may let her ORKO Greens if she does), which you may want). Ultimately it's down to what your team needs Palla to do tho.

As for other skills for Palla... that depends on whether you're running her on a flier team or not, so I'll give my thoughts for both:

Flier Team) Palla's B and C Skills work pretty well on a Flier team (especially Goad Fliers, being a flier-buff and all, but Wings of Mercy lets Palla teleport to deal with Greens and bring her Goad aura with her). If you wanted to switch away though, give Palla a Breaker (I would say you should go Axebreaker or G Tomebreaker, depending on which of those your team is more vulnerable to, and since most fliers are Blue it's a good bet your team is vulnerable to one of those, but you could go Swordbreaker if you don't think Palla needs help dealing with either of those weapon types). For the Command Skill, try Reciprocal Aid, so Palla can emergency-heal, or a positioning skill, if you need one of those. For the A Skill, try Iote's Shield (for archers, mostly: it makes Merric weaker against you too, but you already have WTA over him so I don't think he's especially problematic for Palla) or Darting Blow (primarily if you went with the Killing Edge, so you can double more foes without buffs and even more foes with buffs, but doubling more people is good for any weapon really). I wouldn't recommend Swift Sparrow here unless your Palla is +SPD, since the extra +2 SPD of Darting 3 lets Palla double more units, which is good for guaranteeing Moonbow on offense, which is important for at least two of the weapons that I would recommend Palla have (but if your Palla is +SPD and you have a spare Bunny Lucina, I say Sparrow 2 is a decent option to consider).

Non-Flier Team) You'll need to swap out Goad Fliers for whatever your team needs... but that's pretty flexible. Wings of Mercy is still fairly useful, though I could more easily justify going with a Breaker here since Palla teleporting with her Goad Fliers aura isn't as useful on a non-Flier team. Command Skill and A Skill can be same as the Flier Team Palla tho (so, Reciprocal Aid or a positioning Command Skill, and Iote's Shield, Darting Blow or Swift Sparrow for the A Skill).

Of course, I could be completely wrong about all of this. Ultimately it's your call, these are just some thoughts.

On a related note, what would be a good weapon for Hinoka? I like her Brave Lance+ for now, but I feel like she'll be better off with a weapon that doesn't tank her SPD in the future.

[PowerVZ]

Hello people !

I'm building my 5* +atk -hp kagero and wondered what C skill would be optimal on her.

I considered giving her the Threaten Def 3 skill but I feel like it will not proc that much due to kagero's positionning, as she's often waiting in the backline. I also thought about have her inherit the Breath of Life 3 skill, but again i'm not sure if any of my units would happen to stand next to her while she's out slaughtering enemy units...

Her current A skill is Life and Death 3 and her B skill is Vantage 3. She really shines vs AI and in Arena too I'd like to give her the ultimate C skill to get her to the top !

Thank you in advance for your advice ! (Also sorry for the bad english, i'm french baguette)

[ILikeKirbys]

@PowerVZ Okay, so +ATK/-HP Kagero with Life and Death 3 at max level should have...

28 HP | 43 ATK (48 with Poison Dagger+, 53 vs Infantry) | 37 SPD | 17 DEF | 23 RES

...Looks like you have one hell of a mage-killer here, between the 48-53 ATK and her still-passable RES. And with Vantage, she can take on tanky mages and one-shot them on their turn, which is extra nice! For her, I would say that the best C Skill is probably a Hone or Fortify skill, since you said she's on the back line a lot and thus could buff up your other units until it's her turn to attack.

Although, what is the rest of your team that you're planning to run Kagero with? Because your Kagero's basically complete even without a C Skill, so what you should use for that slot really comes down to who you're running alongside Kagero, in my opinion.

 

[BANRYU]

So I had a thought the other day... What do y'all think about the idea of gem weapons + Brash Assault on slow, tanky units? (IE maybe like Stahl or somebody IDK) We've seen what a great wall Subaki can be with his Sapphire Lance, and given how much the gem weapons can negate damage I can't help but wonder if maybe they might actually make Brash Assault usable on someone besides Lyn. 

 

11 hours ago, AW91 said:

Hej people!

What do you think, is best for Hector´s "C"?

I already have learned him Pivot and Vantage 3 - so only the "C" is missing.

And maybe somebody could tell me, what character I should next head for? -> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6tzltMx1OAZcFJ2d1RyUVFvY2c

Edith: Shit, I see that Pavise is not the best thing for Hector - what would you recommend?

Moonbow, Bonfire

...Are YOU the person who's been writing those 4 C-supports under the recommended skills for for everyone and their mother on the Heroes wiki? If so... stop that. 

12 hours ago, SHSL Ninja said:

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what to give Palla?  I thought about giving her a Killing Edge or Brave Sword and keep Moonbow.  But I'm not quite sure what to give her otherwise.

Actually, I don't think Palla is all that bad with her default weapon, but of the options you said, Killing Edge might do the trick. It really depends on the team she runs with I think, but Ruby Sword is as good defensively as it is offensively, which is something I think not a lot of people think about. Although... running some calcs for her, she DOES seem to have a lot of trouble landing kills even on greens... at a glance Fury + Renewal seems decent for her balanced stats, and lets her kill all the greens with Moonbow 'cept Merric, Bunny Chrom, and +Def variants of Minerva and Raven. 

I'll look into her some more more and try to see what works better for her. 

6 hours ago, Kaden said:

Well, guess I learned that ranged units cannot have any defensive special including Aegis or Sacred Cowl which make total sense for them. 

So, while Escutcheon has good synergy with Brave and Killer weapons, what about Pavise? I don't really know who would want it. 

Yeah it sucks that ranged folks cant get Aegis or Sacred Cowl Dx Pretty much means that no one without Distant Counter will ever want to run them over anything that can actually do damage... it's regrettable. 

@PowerVZ Threaten auras and Breath of Life tend to be better for frontliners of tight-knit groups, so IMO a Hone or Fortify is probably best for Kagero's C-slot. I have Hone Speed on mine. 

[MrSmokestack]

12 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@PowerVZ Okay, so +ATK/-HP Kagero with Life and Death 3 at max level should have...

28 HP | 43 ATK (48 with Poison Dagger+, 53 vs Infantry) | 37 SPD | 17 DEF | 23 RES

...Looks like you have one hell of a mage-killer here, between the 48-53 ATK and her still-passable RES. And with Vantage, she can take on tanky mages and one-shot them on their turn, which is extra nice! For her, I would say that the best C Skill is probably a Hone or Fortify skill, since you said she's on the back line a lot and thus could buff up your other units until it's her turn to attack.

Although, what is the rest of your team that you're planning to run Kagero with? Because your Kagero's basically complete even without a C Skill, so what you should use for that slot really comes down to who you're running alongside Kagero, in my opinion.

 

Wouldn't it be 72 Atk vs infantry?

@PowerVZ Kagero is too frail to make good use of Vantage, especially since her low HP cap leaves her vulnerable to getting OHKO'd before you even factor in LaD 3. Kagero doesn't benefit much from her B passive, so keeping the default Shurikenbreaker is fine. C Passive is flexible though Threaten Defense 3 and Hone Atk / Spd are my recommendations, depending on the rest of your team.

However, since your Kagero is +Atk, I'm putting in a vote for Death Blow over LaD 3, since Kagero should be KO'ing infantry in one hit. Otherwise, she becomes a liability against ranged units. If you want to maximize your mileage with Poison Dagger+, consider running Hone Atk on one of her teammates. With it, she'll hit 79 Atk vs infantry, which is enough to OHKO any neutral infantry up to Tiki (Adult)'s bulk in one hit, so about 35 Def.

 

Hope this helped.

Edited April 11, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Kagero is too frail to make good use of Vantage, especially since her low HP cap leaves her vulnerable to getting OHKO'd before you even factor in LaD 3.

On the other hand, player-controlled Kagero has no trouble activating Vantage using Ardent Sacrifice, and Kagero's counterattack damage is high enough to one-hit kill every ranged infantry unit in the game (except maybe units with Triangle Adept and Litrraven).

[GinRei]

Piggy-backing on the Kagero discussion, is -ATK Kagero redeemable in the slightest?  I want to toss her on my defense team to try and nab a defense victory each week, but it just feels like she'll be too weak to actually do anything but hamstring an enemy unit.

[BANRYU]

Agree with Ice Dragon, Vantage seems pretty damn good on Kagero if you can get her in Vantage range safely via RecipAid / ArdSac. (and yeah, she can't kill TA3 Raven-users, confirming)

And personally I'm fond of risky business so I run Defiant Atk 3 and am planning to go for Vantage on her as well haha. 

@GinRei In theory I want to say no... I'd say toss her onto your team and give her a few trial runs to see how she performs, maybe she can be servicable, but I wouldn't recommend investing any skills in her TBQH. 

 

[MrSmokestack]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

On the other hand, player-controlled Kagero has no trouble activating Vantage using Ardent Sacrifice, and Kagero's counterattack damage is high enough to one-hit kill every ranged infantry unit in the game (except maybe units with Triangle Adept and Litrraven).

But then you can't use Death Blow, even if there's a 1 Atk difference between it and LaD 3. +Atk might as well should go with the highest Atk option available aside from a Defiant buff, though somehow getting her to half in a controlled scenario is another matter.

I personally prefer using her as a player-phase delete button, though Vantage does seem more viable on her than I gave it credit for initially.

[ILikeKirbys]

51 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Wouldn't it be 72 Atk vs infantry?

72? I thought effective damage just doubled the Might of the weapon? How does effective damage work?

1 hour ago, BANRYU said:

So I had a thought the other day... What do y'all think about the idea of gem weapons + Brash Assault on slow, tanky units? (IE maybe like Stahl or somebody IDK) We've seen what a great wall Subaki can be with his Sapphire Lance, and given how much the gem weapons can negate damage I can't help but wonder if maybe they might actually make Brash Assault usable on someone besides Lyn.

That's a neat idea right there. I don't use Brash Assault much (though some day I will give it to Lyn, because damnit that skill was made for her), but the defensive benefits of a Gem weapon might make it worth trying. So, here's some theorycrafting for every default Gem weapon user, starting with the Sapphire Lancers:

Spoiler

Subaki: I don't think Subaki wants this as much as Quick Riposte, to be honest, but if you have a -DEF Subaki I could see it working. I'll be sure to try this on my +SPD/-DEF Subaki and let you know what happens, when I'm training him up again (don't expect this until the end of the week, between maintenance and work I won't be able to play that much the rest of this week, sorry).

Azura: I don't think Azura has the defenses to make this work, since it requires being attacked before you can double. Maybe it could work against one of the Tikis? But I don't think so, and even if it would work in that one situation, that's not a good enough reason to run this over a different B Skill IMO.

Sully: Honestly, Sully's defenses could make this work (it's not quite as bad as Azura's DEF, Sully's kind of borderline here, but I feel like it could be done if you keep Sully from ever taking a hit from non-Reds while in Brash Assault range), but I think she would probably prefer Swordbreaker to skewer swordies twice at any HP amount. Still, if you didn't want to run Breakers for some reason, then sure, this could be alright.

The Ruby Swordies:

Spoiler

Hinata: This guy gets Brash Assault by default, and for good reason. He can make this set work very easily, with his massive HP pool and very high DEF, and the Ruby Sword would most likely salvage his not-that-great ATK as long as he's against Greens, plus Fury puts Hinata into Brash Assault range after a while even if he isn't taking damage, so yeah, keep BA on this man, it suits him.
And after looking at the only Hinata I have, he's almost perfect for this (-ATK sucks, but Gem WTA and Fury could patch that up, and he's +SPD so he'll have 31 with Fury 3, which is nice). So now I'm gonna try him out too, instead of sacrificing him to give someone Fury 3.

Palla: I could see this working, actually. Palla's stats are generally fairly balanced, so running Brash Assault would let her double greens who might be too fast for her to double normally, and Moonbow would make her really benefit from doubling enemies in any way. If you don't need Wings of Mercy, then yeah, BA looks like a good option for the Eldest Whitewing.

Stahl: Stahl should be able to make Brash Assault work for reasons similar to Hinata. He has good DEF, high HP, and alright ATK with so-so SPD (his RES isn't so good, but eh, can't have it all), so IMO Stahl is an ideal candidate for BA, even more than Hinata. Burn a Bartre on the altar of making Stahl double. Now.

And the Emerald Axemen:

Spoiler

Arthur: I could see this working. Arthur has good DEF and HP and alright ATK with okay SPD, so he could make use of Brash Assault I think... except that he has Lancebreaker. I guess you could go Brash Assault if you need him to double against blue mages? But really, I see no reason to let go of Lancebreaker here.

Narcian: We run into the same problem here as with Arthur: Narcian has the stats for Brash Assault (I would argue that Narcian is a bit better a candidate for Brash Assault with his slightly higher defenses), but he also has Lancebreaker. However, being a flier, Narcian could more easily reach blue mages (since he can fly over obstructions like mountains or rivers, thus letting him reach mages who could fire away at Arthur from behind those obstructions in complete safety) and would probably like to double them (and with his RES being what it is, even after taking 40% off of a blue mage's damage they'll probably still be able to put considerable hurt on Narcian, especially if they double... which will either kill Narcian, or just put him into Brash Assault range, which would be good for us), and Narcian can make better use of Vengeance when at low HP, so I think he could make good use of Brash Assault.
Ultimately, if you're gonna give Narcian a proc skill that isn't Vengeance, keep Lancebreaker. If you're gonna go with Vengeance though, consider Brash Assault.

So, for more general thoughts...
You want to give Brash Assault to high-DEF and high-HP units, yeah? And Gem weapons would make those units really tanky and quite a bit stronger against anyone they have WTA over, yeah? So, I think Brash Assault + Sapphire/Ruby/Emerald weapon would be a good combo then, since you wouldn't be taking that much damage per attack while at WTA and would be doubling with higher-than-normal damage thanks to WTA on a Gem weapon. Just make sure the unit is fast enough to not get doubled a lot (or have DEF and HP like Hinata, who I think can maybe get doubled by an axe user while Brash Assault is active and live), and you should be alright.
And maybe slap a Defiant onto whoever is getting Brash Assault, since you want to be using them in the range where Defiant skills activate so it's basically a free +7 to whichever stat you want.

Also, what's Litrraven?

Edited April 11, 2017 by ILikeKirbys

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, ILikeKirbys said:

72? I thought effective damage just doubled the Might of the weapon? How does effective damage work?

1.5x Atk, rounded down.

 

EDIT:

1 minute ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Also, what's Litrraven?

"Raudhr" is Old Norse for "red". "Blar" is Old Norse for "blue". "Gronn" is Old Norse for "green". "Litr" is Old Norse for "color".

Edited April 11, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[ILikeKirbys]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

1.5x Atk, rounded down.

 

EDIT:

"Raudhr" is Old Norse for "red". "Blar" is Old Norse for "blue". "Gronn" is Old Norse for "green". "Litr" is Old Norse for "color".

Huh, no wonder I'm always off when I try to calculate effective damage. I'll keep that in mind for the future.

And that makes sense. I didn't know those were Norse words in the tome names.

Thanks, mate!

[BANRYU]

@MrSmokestack I think I remember someone saying that LaD Kagero can land more kills than Death Blow can by virtue of the higher speed, and given that Kagero doesn't really care to be taking hits much already anyway, I'd say it's probably worth losing the 1 point of Atk. Running Vantage is definitely a risky tactic, but I think it's safe to say the payoff can be pretty good. 

@ILikeKirbys Actually I was thinking about the gems with respect to the entire pool of each respective weapon type (skill inheritance etc.), not necessarily just those who already get it-- Oboro, for instance, could be both slow and bulky enough to make use of Brash Assault properly (though IMO doing that might be kind of a waste of her good bulk against even WTD matchups but if that's what your team needs, hey). It looks like all the Ruby Sword folks can be decent at it, which is pretty interesting, but I want to look at some other possibilities as well...

Beruka seems like a good Emerald candidate, both having solid bulk to make use of Brash Assault and benefitting from the attack boost of the axe, though she may simply do better with a Killer Bonfire + QuickRip build... Fred, Cherche, and Bartre are all other decent candidates who have solid defense and attack alongside weaker speed (and Res, though, so dealing with appropriate colors of Manaketes might be trouble), and Bartre comes with Hinata's passive kit as well, only missing the axe...

I'll look at others later... I don't have a lot of time/energy for mass theorizing today haha sorry ;; I'll add Palla and gem weapon research to my laundry list of Raigh's and Merric's analyses...

And I think Litrraven just refers to all the colors of Raven tomes. EDIT whoops ninja'd. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by BANRYU

[MrSmokestack]

2 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

@MrSmokestack I think I remember someone saying that LaD Kagero can land more kills than Death Blow can by virtue of the higher speed, and given that Kagero doesn't really care to be taking hits much already anyway, I'd say it's probably worth losing the 1 point of Atk. Running Vantage is definitely a risky tactic, but I think it's safe to say the payoff can be pretty good. 

Do you know the person who said that was?

Me.

I'd try to excuse the blatant contradiction between my reasoning then and my reasoning now, since that other Kagero in question had a less than ideal roll, but thanks for reminding me.