General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Kaden]

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm 99% sure that they don't since "at the start of combat" happens after any before-combat effects take place. The second effect of adding to AoE Special damage is probably there to avoid screwing over AoE Special builds which would normally prevent the first effect from happening.

But someone's going to have to test to confirm.

I saw a comment about it that the two conditions are to make sure that Gaius will be able to deal 7 damage on a foe at full health whether it's just during combat or because he activated an AoE special. So, I agree with you on this about the effects not working together.

Regarding something else about Gaius and assuming there is no translation error is the base effect of his Candied Dagger boosts his damage by his speed and does not deal damage. It has the same wording as other stat based specials. In particular, like that of Imperial/Regnal Astra: "Boosts damage by 40% of unit's Spd. (Skill cannot be inherited.)" Difference is that Candied Dagger's base effect requires him to initiate and scales much lower: "If unit initiates combat, grants Spd+4 and boosts damage by 10% of unit's Spd during combat."

In contrast, weapons like Giga Excalibur, Raven King Beak, Red-Hot Ducks, unique refined Resolute Blade, and Vassal's Blade deal damage based on the user's speed: "If unit's Spd > foe's Spd, deals damage = 70% of difference between stats. (Maximum bonus of +7 damage. Combos with Phantom Spd.)"

Saw some comments about Gaius being able to deal damage that seemed like it was factoring in the base effect. Keep that in mind as to not mistake Gaius being able to deal +11 damage when initiating on a foe at full health through 10% of his speed when it's his damage being boosted by 10% of his speed if he initiates and he deals 7 damage if they are at full health.

Edit: Never mind, it is actually a translation error. Great job, localization team.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/fwh7w7/gaius_weapons_primary_condition_deals_true_damage/

Edited April 7, 2020 by Kaden

[XRay]

5 hours ago, Zeo said:

+12 True damage whenever he's faster than his opponent which is basically all the time. Special Spiral which will proc and FB4 will get his special ready immediately, Rouse SPD/DEF for additional speed on the constant (Rouse ATK/SPD would be ideal if it existed at the time of writing) and Darting Blow basically for insurance but Swift Sparrow if you want a bit more kick would work just as well. With a build like this Gaius would need a round of combat in order to get going unless you run Quickened + Time's Pulse and ran him on a double IP team. But as soon as his special is ready (Which it would be after a single round of combat he's good to go.

@XRay Your thoughts?

His damage output is really low. With 45 Atk, I am not sure if he will deal much Blazing damage. When using Blazing Specials, you want your visible Atk to be as high as possible.

Gaius
+Atk
Candied Dagger [Special]
Reposition
Blazing Wind — Blazing Light
Life and Death
Special Spiral
Savage Blow
Flashing Blade

 

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Zeo said:

He needed an OP weapon like the newer units and he didn't get one. Expected, but still a shame. Guess it's time the old man retired.

He needs an Ananakos Alt that finally provides us with a mounted Breath user.

[Nym]

Welp, rip Gaius.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

@Alexmender I guess Eirika's refine wasn't the best... Are you sticking with Blade?

[Vicious Sal]

I did a mock battle against a Cav line with a merged up Eirika today and boy, that's not a fun tome to fight against, let me tell you that. It's got a niche in AR-D at least, that thing hurts, and the oppressive nature of cav lines makes it very hard to beat.

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Vicious Sal said:

I did a mock battle against a Cav line with a merged up Eirika today and boy, that's not a fun tome to fight against, let me tell you that. It's got a niche in AR-D at least, that thing hurts, and the oppressive nature of cav lines makes it very hard to beat.

Its primary advantage is Spd, but I do not see much of a benefit if it cannot overwhelm a tank's Def/Res like Blade tomes can.

[Vicious Sal]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

Its primary advantage is Spd, but I do not see much of a benefit if it cannot overwhelm a tank's Def/Res like Blade tomes can.

Blade tomes don't work well on defense though since there are so many easy ways of getting panic on the enemy defense team. You'd need HC+ on one of your defense mythics, but Thrasir and Yune mostly want WoM to swoop in and check B!Ike. At the very least, the refine has a place Imo, though it certainly is not suited for every game mode.

[Hilda]

1 minute ago, XRay said:

Its primary advantage is Spd, but I do not see much of a benefit if it cannot overwhelm a tank's Def/Res like Blade tomes can.

The problem with Blade tomes in AR is Panic manor or Aversa so Eirika has definitly a niche in a Def Cav-Line that wants to avoid their units being crippled by Panic. A Blade Tome would be utterly useless in that setup against panic, while Eirika can still hurt you.

[XRay]

10 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

Blade tomes don't work well on defense though since there are so many easy ways of getting panic on the enemy defense team. You'd need HC+ on one of your defense mythics, but Thrasir and Yune mostly want WoM to swoop in and check B!Ike. At the very least, the refine has a place Imo, though it certainly is not suited for every game mode.

9 minutes ago, Hilda said:

The problem with Blade tomes in AR is Panic manor or Aversa so Eirika has definitly a niche in a Def Cav-Line that wants to avoid their units being crippled by Panic. A Blade Tome would be utterly useless in that setup against panic, while Eirika can still hurt you.

That is true, and a lot of super tank got Lulls to significantly blunt Blades, but Atk/Spd+8 does not seem very threatening. A lot of Spd super tanks have little issue handling SK!Alm, and I do not think SM!Eirika has anywhere near that level of firepower. For super tanks of the Def/Res variety, I am sure not sure that Atk+8 is sufficient.

Edited April 10, 2020 by XRay

[Nym]

15 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

I did a mock battle against a Cav line with a merged up Eirika today and boy, that's not a fun tome to fight against, let me tell you that. It's got a niche in AR-D at least, that thing hurts, and the oppressive nature of cav lines makes it very hard to beat.

Tbh, if the person knows what they are doing when building their cav line, you can put pretty much anything as long as you ranged units don't hit like wet noddles.

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

That is true, and a lot of super tank got Lulls to significantly blunt Blades, but Atk/Spd+8 does not seem very threatening. A lot of Spd super tanks have little issue handling SK!Alm, and I do not think SM!Eirika has anywhere near that level of firepower. For super tanks of the Def/Res variety, I am sure not sure that Atk+8 is sufficient.

You are missing the point of a cav line. And @Vicious Salmentioned specific a cav line.

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Hilda said:

You are missing the point of a cav line. And @Vicious Salmentioned specific a cav line.

I am not sure what the point is unless you wish to elaborate. Not all offense teams completely fill up their backline with Structures (O), so cav line's space oppression would not be that effective. My semi cav line has pretty good success during first two days of the season when I get matched with more casual players who completely fill up their backline, but as the week goes on, it loses effectiveness against more advanced players who leave their back line open.

[Alexmender]

1 hour ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

@Alexmender I guess Eirika's refine wasn't the best... Are you sticking with Blade?

Yeah. I still gave her the refine but it goes against the Poison Strike/Savage Blow build I gave her and the extra stats aren't going to be doing much for Eirika when even the Blade tome struggles to kill Abyssal enemies. 

I already knew she wasn't going to be getting an awesome refine by virtue of being a f2p unit (although B!Ike is one too and his refine is OP) but it stings a little bit. At least OG!Eirika's refine is still top notch, even if she is starting to struggle a bit with the min-maxed Gen 4 stuff You better give her a resplandent skin, IS!

[Hilda]

13 minutes ago, XRay said:

I am not sure what the point is unless you wish to elaborate. Not all offense teams completely fill up their backline with Structures (O), so cav line's space oppression would not be that effective. My semi cav line has pretty good success during first two days of the season when I get matched with more casual players who completely fill up their backline, but as the week goes on, it loses effectiveness against more advanced players who leave their back line open.

That is the whole point of a complete cav line, leave little room and snipe a unit off, but as i mentioned a Blade Tome will do little to nothing against an Aversa/Sudden Panic/Panic Manor Team, while Eirika will do more in that case. I also never stated that a Cav Line cant be countered. I am not even sure why you brought up SPD Tanks Alm etc, when the simple fact is that Eirikas refine will do better when up against an Aversa/Panic Team in a pure Cav line then a Blade Tome.

[XRay]

24 minutes ago, Hilda said:

That is the whole point of a complete cav line, leave little room and snipe a unit off, but as i mentioned a Blade Tome will do little to nothing against an Aversa/Sudden Panic/Panic Manor Team, while Eirika will do more in that case. I also never stated that a Cav Line cant be countered. I am not even sure why you brought up SPD Tanks Alm etc, when the simple fact is that Eirikas refine will do better when up against an Aversa/Panic Team in a pure Cav line then a Blade Tome.

I just do not think a cav line is all that amazing due to how common it is for players to leave their backline open, and I fail to see how her Refinement is going to help her much with that role. Cav line was pretty decent in the past when everyone was filling up their backline, but that is not the case anymore. At best, the Refine brings her up to par with non-Infantry Pulse mages like Lewyn and COL!Julia, but they all still get wrecked by super tanks. A unit need a lot more than Atk/Spd+8 and debuff nullification to pose a threat to super tanks.

Not everyone needs Aversa and Panic to deal with a cav line either, and I do not see Aversa as often lately on offense, so Blade tomes are still fine to catch people off guard, at least against the casual players.

Edited April 10, 2020 by XRay

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

2 hours ago, Alexmender said:

Yeah. I still gave her the refine but it goes against the Poison Strike/Savage Blow build I gave her and the extra stats aren't going to be doing much for Eirika when even the Blade tome struggles to kill Abyssal enemies. 

I already knew she wasn't going to be getting an awesome refine by virtue of being a f2p unit (although B!Ike is one too and his refine is OP) but it stings a little bit. At least OG!Eirika's refine is still top notch, even if she is starting to struggle a bit with the min-maxed Gen 4 stuff You better give her a resplandent skin, IS!

Makes sense. Especially since the main advantage of the Prf is Spd... which she kinda doesn't need in Abyssals.

I'm hoping for Resplendent Eirika as well. Was hoping she'd be the second one in April, actually, but Eliwood is fine.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

and I fail to see how her Refinement is going to help her much with that role.

Having +8 Atk and Spd pretty much all the time is better than the -1 Atk and +0 Spd you have when your Raudhrblade gets disabled. Reliable free stats aren't really all that easy to find on ranged cavalry.

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Having +8 Atk and Spd pretty much all the time is better than the -1 Atk and +0 Spd you have when your Raudhrblade gets disabled. Reliable free stats aren't really all that easy to find on ranged cavalry.

Yes, it is better against Panic and debuffs if the offensive player has them, but in practice, it is not significant enough to matter. If a player's tank is prepared to face down Rauðrblade, the player would not have much issue with Gleipnir either. Gleipnir has a low damage ceiling while Blade tomes have a high damage ceiling. Gleipnir cannot punish mistakes like Blade tomes can.

[Ice Dragon]

29 minutes ago, XRay said:

Yes, it is better against Panic and debuffs if the offensive player has them, but in practice, it is not significant enough to matter. If a player's tank is prepared to face down Rauðrblade, the player would not have much issue with Gleipnir either. Gleipnir has a low damage ceiling while Blade tomes have a high damage ceiling. Gleipnir cannot punish mistakes like Blade tomes can.

On a cavalry line map, Litrblade only punishes mistakes in team composition and offensive structure positioning and isn't as good at taking advantage of gameplay mistakes due to dancer traps being difficult to implement in the cavalry line template and buffs being harder to apply after the first turn. At lower tiers, punishing team composition is more effective, but becomes less effective as you get higher.

It's a balance between having an easier to counter team that wins by default against unprepared opponents and winning by default less, but putting up more of a fight if it doesn't. There isn't a single option that is strictly better than the other.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Jotari]

So what do you think Duma could get for his refine? He has a very specific gimmick going on there. I have a few things in mind.

The First would be to give him Surtr's effect dealing 20 damage at the start of player phase. Which would probably be too broken given you could double it up with Surtr too. Dealing 40 damage between the two of them per turn would take out most things. But perhaps a weakened version of Surtr's effect (I think it was good for him as a story boss but they should have nerfed it a bit when making him playable).

Next would be attaching a conditional Distant Counter. He has like a million range in his own games anyway, so it'd fit. Despite having Bold Fighter his effect and typing does make him a rather strong defensive unit, so having built in Distant Counter and allowing him to run Fortress Def/Res on his A slot would make him a tanky ass beast.

Last one would be the remove one of his most common weakness, which is healing. A single staff user can mess up Duma's gimmick by healing the scratch damage from Upheaval before he can reach his enemies. So perhaps some kind of "If enemy units are adjacent to another enemy unit, inflict a status effect that prevents that unit from restoring HP until their next actions". Not only would this make Duma gimp proof but it would be a pretty fun and interesting status effect to introduce into the game.

[Hilda]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So what do you think Duma could get for his refine? He has a very specific gimmick going on there. I have a few things in mind.

The First would be to give him Surtr's effect dealing 20 damage at the start of player phase. Which would probably be too broken given you could double it up with Surtr too. Dealing 40 damage between the two of them per turn would take out most things. But perhaps a weakened version of Surtr's effect (I think it was good for him as a story boss but they should have nerfed it a bit when making him playable).

Next would be attaching a conditional Distant Counter. He has like a million range in his own games anyway, so it'd fit. Despite having Bold Fighter his effect and typing does make him a rather strong defensive unit, so having built in Distant Counter and allowing him to run Fortress Def/Res on his A slot would make him a tanky ass beast.

Last one would be the remove one of his most common weakness, which is healing. A single staff user can mess up Duma's gimmick by healing the scratch damage from Upheaval before he can reach his enemies. So perhaps some kind of "If enemy units are adjacent to another enemy unit, inflict a status effect that prevents that unit from restoring HP until their next actions". Not only would this make Duma gimp proof but it would be a pretty fun and interesting status effect to introduce into the game.

I dont think Duma is a bad unit at all and not in need of a Refine. The problem is the presence of Naga makeing him less effectiv in Astra season. Just like Thrasir basicly went all "extinct" on Dragons in her season.

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I dont think Duma is a bad unit at all and not in need of a Refine. The problem is the presence of Naga makeing him less effectiv in Astra season. Just like Thrasir basicly went all "extinct" on Dragons in her season.

OH yeah I don't think he particularly needs one compared to a lot of other characters, I just think as far as characters go he's a pretty fun and interesting one to speculate on.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

The First would be to give him Surtr's effect dealing 20 damage at the start of player phase. Which would probably be too broken given you could double it up with Surtr too. Dealing 40 damage between the two of them per turn would take out most things. But perhaps a weakened version of Surtr's effect (I think it was good for him as a story boss but they should have nerfed it a bit when making him playable).

Global damage of 20 per turn would be nice, and it would help offset some of the healing from Healing Tower (O) or Healing Tower (D).

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Next would be attaching a conditional Distant Counter. He has like a million range in his own games anyway, so it'd fit. Despite having Bold Fighter his effect and typing does make him a rather strong defensive unit, so having built in Distant Counter and allowing him to run Fortress Def/Res on his A slot would make him a tanky ass beast.

Unless you need him to tank Ophelia or something, Mirror Stance or Bracing Stance (whenever it is released) are better in my opinion since it does not reduce his Atk and it also offers additional protection in the form of Guard.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Last one would be the remove one of his most common weakness, which is healing. A single staff user can mess up Duma's gimmick by healing the scratch damage from Upheaval before he can reach his enemies. So perhaps some kind of "If enemy units are adjacent to another enemy unit, inflict a status effect that prevents that unit from restoring HP until their next actions". Not only would this make Duma gimp proof but it would be a pretty fun and interesting status effect to introduce into the game.

That would be great for Counter-Vantage units. Would be amazing with Kronya.

[Xenomata]

It's that time again! Time for @XRay to hope they finally implement a weapon with Slaying, Firesweep, Brave, Dual-phase Desperation, Vantage, Distant Counter, Guaranteed follow-up attacks, all foe B-skill nullifications, Special Fighter, and also Colorless advantage cause why not!

Siegbert, Gwendolyn, Leon, and Narcian edition.

~Siegbert's Dark Greatsword has Swift Sparrow by default. Not that exciting. His Personal Skill in Fates, Gallant, boosted the damage of the lead unit in a Pair Up by 2 if his partner was Female.

~Gwendolyn's default weapon was the Killer Lance.

~Leon's default weapon was the Slaying Bow.

~Narcian's default weapon was the Emerald Axe, but the weapon he is known to use in his original game, the Runesword, had an HP drain effect similar to Nosferatu and was treated as a magic weapon at range. Seems doubtful they'll give him Distant Counter, so let's just assume he'll get an effect similar to Forsyth's Sol Lance.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Xenomata