Treatment of Female Lords in their games (save Eirika)

[Refa]

13 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Being a sole protagonist doesn't mean better writing and the post I quoted mentioned him as an example of a solo protagonist which I'm presuming means he thinks that is a good example. I still don't see how sharing spotlight means the lord is worse than a lord without sharing spotlight. 

It doesn't mean better writing but it does mean that a female protagonist doesn't get sidelined which is what I want. Good writing is of course the most important but that's not exactly something I can quantify to "do this and you get good writing".

2 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Lyn has an entire mode to herself.

Her name is Corrin.

1) Lyn Mode is a sidestory at best

2) Corrin can be a male and is an avatar character. Gender is like...negative levels of important.

3) Corrin isn't well written at all. :(

[Sunwoo]

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

I disagree because the lords from the games where they have shared spotlight are more intriguing, better developed and better written than Roy, a guy who has the spotlight to himself. 

In all fairness, it's not like FE6 in general is the pinnacle of writing anyway. Besides, I'd count Seliph and Sigurd as separate lords because they don't coexist at the same time, and there's also Leif from Thracia 776. Sigurd and Leif at the very least are decently written for the standards of the time their games were made. PoR!Ike, whether you like him or not, is also well-written.

tl;dr Roy being bland does not invalidate Sigurd, Leif, and PoR!Ike being better written.

48 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Doesn't Lyn have an entire mode to herself? Also, female Corrin exists.

Lyn's mode is basically a tutorial and it doesn't have much bearing on the overall plot. Also, female Corrin doesn't count imo because Corrin is an avatar and therefore has no canon gender, which doesn't make them an "always female" character.

[Icelerate]

1 hour ago, Refa said:

It doesn't mean better writing but it does mean that a female protagonist doesn't get sidelined which is what I want. Good writing is of course the most important but that's not exactly something I can quantify to "do this and you get good writing".

You can still have multiple lords where one of them doesn't get sidelined. I don't remember Hector or Eliwood getting sidelined, for example. 

25 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

In all fairness, it's not like FE6 in general is the pinnacle of writing anyway. Besides, I'd count Seliph and Sigurd as separate lords because they don't coexist at the same time, and there's also Leif from Thracia 776. Sigurd and Leif at the very least are decently written for the standards of the time their games were made. PoR!Ike, whether you like him or not, is also well-written.

tl;dr Roy being bland does not invalidate Sigurd, Leif, and PoR!Ike being better written.

Lyn's mode is basically a tutorial and it doesn't have much bearing on the overall plot. Also, female Corrin doesn't count imo because Corrin is an avatar and therefore has no canon gender, which doesn't make them an "always female" character.

Yeah I agree a sole protagonist can be well-written but not necessarily better than a protagonist that shares spotlight. Nor are protagonists automatically better written than side characters. For example, Jill and Nino receive even less spotlight compared to the female FE protagonists but I'd argue they are superior characters than most FE protagonists.  I've only played FE6-FE10 so I won't comment on Sigurd and Leif. Personally, I think the best written lord is Micaiah, then Hector, etc. What do those two have in common? I also think Eliwood is better written than all the other Marth clones and Marth himself despite being similar, yet he shares spotlight with two other lords.  

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Icelerate

[Ninjato]

33 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, female Corrin doesn't count imo because Corrin is an avatar and therefore has no canon gender, which doesn't make them an "always female" character.

I was under the impression Fem!Corrin was canon for the Nohr route, not sure if that still counts just a thought I had.

[Ninjato]

5 hours ago, Florete said:

I do think you should give Lucina more credit. She may not be coded as what we understand to be a "lord," but she even has the class, and for good reason. She's basically the one who sets the entire plot in motion. Without her, a lot of things would have gone down differently.

I agree. As I mentioned earlier I think Lucina should be considered Awakenings deuteragonist. I've nothing against Robin but I don't like that he's considered the deuteragonist over Lucina as he had no personal investment in the whole thing until that plot twist near the end, just my two cents.

[Rose482]

I feel like while the female lords do get less screen time in the overall story, I still almost always end up liking them more : P They always feel the more human to me, which makes it easier for me to relate too.

 

And really I feel like....the writers just find it hard to write for a female lord? That could be a reason why we don't have a game with only a solo lord who's a female, and while I would love for us to get a game with a solo female lord, I think I prefer games with multiple lords anyway at this point. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Rose482

[Florete]

2 hours ago, Ninjato said:

I was under the impression Fem!Corrin was canon for the Nohr route, not sure if that still counts just a thought I had.

No route technically has a canon gender for Corrin, they just typically use male for Birthright and female for Conquest.

2 hours ago, Ninjato said:

I agree. As I mentioned earlier I think Lucina should be considered Awakenings deuteragonist. I've nothing against Robin but I don't like that he's considered the deuteragonist over Lucina as he had no personal investment in the whole thing until that plot twist near the end, just my two cents.

Why "he" though?

1 hour ago, Rose482 said:

And really I feel like....the writers just find it hard to write for a female lord? That could be a reason why we don't have a game with only a solo lord who's a female, and while I would love for us to get a game with a solo female lord, I think I prefer games with multiple lords anyway at this point. 

This is likely true, but also a bad excuse. Writing female leads shouldn't be hard, and if they're really worried, they can hire someone with more confidence for it. They hired a writer for Fates, they can do it again.

[Ninjato]

12 minutes ago, Florete said:

Why "he" though?

Because I'm a guy and I play male Robin so I instinctively refer to them as "he" just as I've seen female players refer to Robin as "she".

 

14 minutes ago, Florete said:

No route technically has a canon gender for Corrin, they just typically use male for Birthright and female for Conquest.

Ok that makes sense.

 

15 minutes ago, Florete said:

This is likely true, but also a bad excuse. Writing female leads shouldn't be hard, and if they're really worried, they can hire someone with more confidence for it. They hired a writer for Fates, they can do it again.

Yeah, can't argue with this.

[Slumber]

8 hours ago, Ninjato said:

I disagree with this, Robin was just an attention hog near end of the story, it was never about him in any capacity. It's all about Chrom and Lucina.

Why do people think this? I just had this discussion in another thread, and have yet to get an answer there. 

Awakening straight up couldn't be more about Robin. Literally everything that happens in that game is because of Robin, and there isn't a single major plot point that isn't tied to him/her somehow. They're not aware of it until the last chunk of game, but that doesn't change the fact that both the Plegia and Valm arcs couldn't have happened without them somehow, and the Grimleal Arc is about Robin and only Robin. 

And to top that off, Lucina over Robin? Really? Lucina might as well not exist in the plot after we learn that she's Chrom's daughter. Once that plot point is revealed, her relevance to the plot drops to a flat 0. She says things every now and then, but her agency in the story is basically gone... Really pretty early in the game. Robin never really loses relevance, and his/her input to Chrom is more important throughout a longer portion of the game until Robin hijacks the main character seat and the story is entirely focused on them. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Slumber

[Hanes]

I think Echoes was doing fine until the Act 4 thing, but I really like how both of the armies mattered they changed Valentian history and with little interaction until Act 5. But I would like it more if they were one party and both of them took stupid and smart decisions, you don't have to make them brothers or even intereste in each other just 2 generals appointed to one massive army (massive being an adjective not a representation of how many characters there should be) who direct it has they best see fit and are just human.

[Ninjato]

59 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Why do people think this? I just had this discussion in another thread, and have yet to get an answer there. 

Awakening straight up couldn't be more about Robin. Literally everything that happens in that game is because of Robin, and there isn't a single major plot point that isn't tied to him/her somehow. They're not aware of it until the last chunk of game, but that doesn't change the fact that both the Plegia and Valm arcs couldn't have happened without them somehow, and the Grimleal Arc is about Robin and only Robin. 

And to top that off, Lucina over Robin? Really? Lucina might as well not exist in the plot after we learn that she's Chrom's daughter. Once that plot point is revealed, her relevance to the plot drops to a flat 0. She says things every now and then, but her agency in the story is basically gone... Really pretty early in the game. Robin never really loses relevance, and his/her input to Chrom is more important throughout a longer portion of the game until Robin hijacks the main character seat and the story is entirely focused on them. 

Having importance to the Plot doesn't mean it's about you. You could argue Guinevere had more importance than Roy despite him being the main character, likewise for Elincia and Ike. Forgive me, I have trouble putting my thoughts into words so bear with me.

You are correct in Lucina's lack of overall plot relevancy, I'd argue that's one (of many) of Awakening's flaws in its story. Lucina's whole involvement is to stop Grima in order to avoid a ruinous future that she had to live through (let's ignore the whole alternate timeline thing for now). I think she's very deserving of at least being the deuteragonist, it's just her poor handling as the story progresses that I think undermines that.

I'm not arguing against Robin's importance, he's definitely a major character, what I really mean is the story isn't about him. From beginning to end it's about Chrom's journey from a Prince to an Exalt and that's intertwined with Lucina and her desire to defeat Grima and create a better future. Robin for like 90% of the game is just treated like a (slightly above normal) person until the discount Darth Vader moment and the Grima reveal near the tail end where he hijacks the spotlight.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

Just popping in to say that I adore Micaiah, I'm glad other people agree with the female writing issue, and I really hope that if Eirika and Micaiah ever get remakes of their games that they're given a better rework than poor Celica got. All of them deserve better from their games.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

6 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

In all fairness, it's not like FE6 in general is the pinnacle of writing anyway. Besides, I'd count Seliph and Sigurd as separate lords because they don't coexist at the same time, and there's also Leif from Thracia 776. Sigurd and Leif at the very least are decently written for the standards of the time their games were made. PoR!Ike, whether you like him or not, is also well-written.

tl;dr Roy being bland does not invalidate Sigurd, Leif, and PoR!Ike being better written.

Lyn's mode is basically a tutorial and it doesn't have much bearing on the overall plot. Also, female Corrin doesn't count imo because Corrin is an avatar and therefore has no canon gender, which doesn't make them an "always female" character.

Hell actually lets talk about Sigurd Leif and Seliph, within regards to spotlight

Because in FE4 proper its HILARIOUSLY clear by gen 2 all Kaga ever want to write is Leif. The game got its reputation for blowing up after Gen 1 where Gen 2 is filled with literal nobodies, characters that should have been important simply isn't, and you have 3 chapter of Leif to the point the game itself is sick of it

[Troykv]

11 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Hell actually lets talk about Sigurd Leif and Seliph, within regards to spotlight

Because in FE4 proper its HILARIOUSLY clear by gen 2 all Kaga ever want to write is Leif. The game got its reputation for blowing up after Gen 1 where Gen 2 is filled with literal nobodies, characters that should have been important simply isn't, and you have 3 chapter of Leif to the point the game itself is sick of it

Probably he ended up noticing how much importance he actually put in Leif and the overall Thracia Arc, to the point he knew Leif need it his own game; and Thracia 776 is the result of this.

[Slumber]

2 hours ago, Ninjato said:

Having importance to the Plot doesn't mean it's about you. You could argue Guinevere had more importance than Roy despite him being the main character, likewise for Elincia and Ike. Forgive me, I have trouble putting my thoughts into words so bear with me.

You are correct in Lucina's lack of overall plot relevancy, I'd argue that's one (of many) of Awakening's flaws in its story. Lucina's whole involvement is to stop Grima in order to avoid a ruinous future that she had to live through (let's ignore the whole alternate timeline thing for now). I think she's very deserving of at least being the deuteragonist, it's just her poor handling as the story progresses that I think undermines that.

I'm not arguing against Robin's importance, he's definitely a major character, what I really mean is the story isn't about him. From beginning to end it's about Chrom's journey from a Prince to an Exalt and that's intertwined with Lucina and her desire to defeat Grima and create a better future. Robin for like 90% of the game is just treated like a (slightly above normal) person until the discount Darth Vader moment and the Grima reveal near the tail end where he hijacks the spotlight.

I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree, but I do have to bring up a few personal problems with this:

Robin takes center stage immediately after Walhart falls, which is chapter 21, of a 26 chapter game. So Robin is actually the direct focus for 6 chapters of a 26 chapter game is nearly a quarter of the game. On top of this, the Hierophant shows up in chapter... 13, I think? From this moment, there is no more attempting to hide the fact that Robin is a big deal in the story, and will likely play a much bigger role than is being let on.

To add to this, Chrom's development largely stops once Gangrel leaves the story. At the base level, the Valm arc appears a clash of ideals between rulers for Chrom and Walhart, and by this point Chrom largely accepts his role as Exalt. However, Walhart actually considers the Valm segment game as a clash of ideals between Robin and Walhart. Obviously this doesn't have the greatest foundation since you only really find this out in supports, but since Walhart only has 100% unique supports with Robin...

Plus, though this is a matter of opinion, I find Chrom's development quite, uh, bad. Really quite bad. And the fact that he's willing to doom the world 1000 years down the line for Robin right at endgame... to me, showcases that his growth really isn't THAT significant.

And I'm still not seeing why Lucina should be considered the deuteragonist over Robin, since her relevance to the plot largely begins in chapter 4 and as you agree, ends at chapter 13 when it's revealed who she is. She straight up isn't in chapters 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, and she has a single speaking line in chapter 9. Even if you don't want to say Robin's involvement ONLY starts at 21, that's 6 chapters for Robin vs. uh, 1 chapter for Lucina. We assume Lucina is important from chapter 1 despite it not being clear until 4, but we also assume Robin is important starting from chapter 13 even if it doesn't pay off until 21. Incidentally, that'd be 14 chapters of assuming Robin is important vs. 13 for Lucina. This is without going into how much each character is focused on, because I'd argue that there really isn't a single moment in the plot where Lucina is ever the center focus vs. Chrom and Robin.

If you want to say Lucina is a tritagonist with Robin and Chrom, go ahead. But as somebody who'd put Robin above Chrom(Which is where we'll have to agree to disagree) in terms of who is the main character of Awakening, you're gonna have a really tough time convincing me that Lucina is more of a main character and deserving of a deuteragonist spot, but I suppose we're splitting hairs at that point

Edited November 23, 2018 by Slumber

[Baldrick]

12 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

L'arachel only told her that no one has resisted Formortiss yet (save Latona himself).

I don't take what L'Arachel says that way.

“Our oldest legends tell us just this?Only one person has ever been able to shake off the Demon King’s domination. Rausten’s founder, Saint Latona the sure-hearted, shattered his fetters. If one possesses a strength of will beyond that of normal men?Only then can one throw off the shackles of the Demon King. But you saw it yourself, Eirika, with your own two eyes. Your friend Lyon’s body has already been claimed by the Demon King. Once it’s gone that far, there’s nothing that can be done. When the Demon King takes over someone, he devours his spirit, his very soul. Even if his hold on Lyon’s body could be released, that body would have no soul. There is no power in Rausten?not even the Sacred Stone?that can perform so great a miracle as to restore a shattered soul.”

The bolded implies that Donkey Kong failed to possess Latona at all, rather than Latona being restored after being possessed.

L’Arachel:
“Eirika? I understand how you feel, but the prince is gone. The Lyon you knew no longer exists.

The Owain-style talk might give people the wrong idea, but L'Arachel does take things seriously when it's appropriate.

 

@Sunwoo  what's your opinion on Elincia? I don't think Part 2 of Radiant Dawn should be discounted because it has little plot relevance.

[Icelerate]

4 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

 what's your opinion on Elincia? I don't think Part 2 of Radiant Dawn should be discounted because it has little plot relevance.

I know I'm not who you quoted but she has even less of a spotlight compared to the mentioned examples. 

[Sunwoo]

8 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

@Sunwoo  what's your opinion on Elincia? I don't think Part 2 of Radiant Dawn should be discounted because it has little plot relevance.

Well-written and a good character, but part 2 is too short and Elincia isn't a lord either. She also doesn't have that much relevance in RD. I think I'd be fine with an Elincia-esque princess if she were a stand alone lord if she were written as well as the actual Elincia is.

[Baldrick]

25 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I know I'm not who you quoted but she has even less of a spotlight compared to the mentioned examples. 

It may be an unpopular opinion, but if I was a Fire Emblem character, I'd rather have a sound character arc than the spotlight.

19 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Well-written and a good character, but part 2 is too short and Elincia isn't a lord either. She also doesn't have that much relevance in RD. I think I'd be fine with an Elincia-esque princess if she were a stand alone lord if she were written as well as the actual Elincia is.

She's not a lord, she's a princess.

That would be the ideal, but I don't think even any of the male lords meet that criteria.

[NekoKnight]

I think Lyn gets a bad rap as "the tutorial girl". Her story takes up 10 chapters (plus a prologue and gaiden chapter) in a game with 33 chapters (plus 8 gaiden chapters for Hector mode). That is in no way insignificant, even if her story is more standalone compared to the events in Eliwood/Hector mode. It's a charming mode with a lot of fun character moments along the way, so I don't know why people are so ready to handwave it as 'not counting'.

Lyn isn't as prominent in the Eliwood mode but she has great chemistry and interactions with the other lords, Hector especially. The story starts off with looking for Eliwood's dad, in which Hector tags along because he wants to help out his friend. They uncover a rebellion plot, Lyn joins and then they all head to Dread Isle where the main antagonist/story conflict is presented. At that point, all three lords have a reason to be fighting; they have to stop Nergal. Hector probably has the best written story arc of the three, but Lyn's is quite intriguing, involving her identity, pride and values of family. 

---
Concerning the other female protagonists, I don't have strong feelings for Eirika but I will stand by her making the mistake of giving Lyon the sacred stone. Even if L'arachel cautioned against it, Eirika believed there was still a sliver of hope, and it's not unreasonable that she would take it. It's much better written than Celica who, even if you take her selfless personality and religious faith into account, was a complete idiot for trusting Jedah when he did everything he could to come across as a madman.

Micaiah is a great character and only tarnished by losing the spotlight to Ike and Yune. I don't consider her significant enough to be called a 'lord' but Elincia was also well written.

I don't really think of Azura and Lucina as lords. They're to help move the plot forward, which is the story of Corrin and Chrom/Robin, respectively.

---
I don't know if Edelgard will be competently written, but I have my doubts. The series has had a poor track record with avatars detracting from the story and Byleth looks to be one. I would hope that she is flawed but in a way that doesn't make the player question her basic intelligence. Micaiah is the best female lord so far to show this.

[DefyingFates]

9 hours ago, Erureido said:

By that same logic of another character telling the protagonist there is point of trusting the villain is the reason why there's no justification for what the hero eventually does, then Celica to you should be at Eirika's level.

Just like Eirika, Celica also had a moment later into SoV's story where a character (specifically her half-brother Conrad) also tells her why she shouldn't sacrifice herself as part of the irredeemably evil Jedah and the Duma Faithful's plan, only the way he does it is far more dramatic than what L'arachel did to Eirika. I've linked and timestamped that scene I'm talking about between Celica and Conrad below (the scene ends at 24:36).

And Celica still decided to trust Jedah and got duped by him in the end despite what Conrad did to her.

Counter point: Jedah menanced Celica and tried to kill her party every time they met, while Eirika has already spoken to "normal Lyon" the last time they met.

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

The bolded implies that Donkey Kong failed to possess Latona at all, rather than Latona being restored after being possessed.

I forgot that part, thank you.

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

The Owain-style talk might give people the wrong idea, but L'Arachel does take things seriously when it's appropriate.

Yep, I love that she does that. It makes her supports more interesting too (especially her one with Eirika).

[Ninjato]

8 hours ago, Slumber said:

Plus, though this is a matter of opinion, I find Chrom's development quite, uh, bad. Really quite bad. And the fact that he's willing to doom the world 1000 years down the line for Robin right at endgame... to me, showcases that his growth really isn't THAT significant.

I can't argue with this honestly, I definitely feel Chrom's Arc could've been handled better.

 

8 hours ago, Slumber said:

If you want to say Lucina is a tritagonist with Robin and Chrom, go ahead. But as somebody who'd put Robin above Chrom(Which is where we'll have to agree to disagree) in terms of who is the main character of Awakening, you're gonna have a really tough time convincing me that Lucina is more of a main character and deserving of a deuteragonist spot, but I suppose we're splitting hairs at that point

That's fair, I guess at the end of the day our personal view plays a big role in how we experience a story. Though it is nice to get different perspective every so often even if we don't always fully agree.

[Ninjato]

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Concerning the other female protagonists, I don't have strong feelings for Eirika but I will stand by her making the mistake of giving Lyon the sacred stone. Even if L'arachel cautioned against it, Eirika believed there was still a sliver of hope, and it's not unreasonable that she would take it.

Let's not forget she's also rather naïve. At least she doesn't appear to have as much world experience as her brother seems to, so I don't think it's very surprising Lyon/DK pulled a fast one on her.

 

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

It's much better written than Celica who, even if you take her selfless personality and religious faith into account, was a complete idiot for trusting Jedah when he did everything he could to come across as a madman.

It's times like this that I wish they'd do something more innovative with the Gharnef Archetype. If they had made Jedah more like Lehran or Lyon I think that whole thing could've been remedied somewhat, given that Celica and Eirika are somewhat similar in their trusting/naïve personalities.

[Erureido]

11 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

Counter point: Jedah menanced Celica and tried to kill her party every time they met, while Eirika has already spoken to "normal Lyon" the last time they met.

I brought up that video and scene from SoV as a response to Mir saying that Eirika is worse than Celica because of how she still gave the stone to Lyon despite what someone else told her prior unlike Celica, so I wanted to point out to him that if that scene between L'arachel and Eirika alone made Eirika look silly in his eyes for what would follow, then he should also have the same sentiments toward Celica because she too had someone tell her why she shouldn't fall for the villain's trick.

Me personally? I like Eirika more than Celica for reasons you and Nekoknight have stated. In fact, regarding your counterpoint, I completely agree with you on that. When I mentioned "the irredeemably evil Jedah and the Duma Faithful" earlier, I had that fact in mind regarding how Jedah and his followers constantly threatened Celica that he would murder her army. It's also worth mentioning Jedah flat out states he wants to "usher in an age of chaos and destruction" by resurrecting Duma, and that only made him look even more like a hate doll that Celica was too silly to trust.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Erureido

[Shadow Mir]

17 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Just popping in to say that I adore Micaiah, I'm glad other people agree with the female writing issue, and I really hope that if Eirika and Micaiah ever get remakes of their games that they're given a better rework than poor Celica got. All of them deserve better from their games.

And on that note, I hope that they can actually do Sacred Stones's plot and characters justice in a remake, because I just cannot take either seriously.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Shadow Mir