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5 minutes ago, Othin said:

It's an interesting contrast with what happened with Eirika last year. Eirika got an alt in the middle of CYL2 voting, and many of her fans seem to have bailed on her, feeling that it decreased the value of a CYL version of her and using their remaining votes for other characters they liked instead.

Camilla fans seem to feel differently. I have guesses as to why, but I'm also curious if any Camilla fans want to give their own take on the discrepancy.

certainly an interesting observation. I'm curious about that as well now that you mention it. 

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4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

When was the last time we got a Lucina or a Lyn?

Lyn: May 1, 2018 (her legendary)
Lucina: July 31, 2018 (her legendary)

Edited by Tybrosion

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32 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

That's your prerogative to not care, but then don't be surprised if other people start thinking unfavorably of you (or by extension other Camilla fans).

I'm not even asking you to not be happy or to dislike alts or turn it into a morality issue or anything like that. I'm just asking if this is REALLY the best place to be gushing over how you're looking forward to getting other seasonal Camilla alts in the near future. TIME AND PLACE is not a morality issue, it's more of a common sense issue.

What about time and place? I'm pretty sure this is the CYL3 discussion thread, not the "trash Camilla and alts" thread, unless I'm mistaken. My comments have been largely on-topic, just not sharing the group sentiment, it seems. If people are going to dislike me or anybody else over character alts in a phone game I don't think I'm the one with the problem.

I could just as well make issue with the one-sided whining for the past 50 pages this thread has turned into, but since here that's the majority's opinion I'm the one with the problematic posts for not following suit. If anything, people here could use to see more differing opinions. The absolute bafflement I've seen about Camilla's placing shows that a lot of people may be more out of touch with the overall fanbase than they think.

Edited by Alkaid

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Woohoo! Haven't missed a day of voting for Elena this year! Again, if you have any spare votes you're not sure how to use, Elena (Ike and Mist's mom) would really appreciate the support! :D

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25 minutes ago, Othin said:

It's an interesting contrast with what happened with Eirika last year. Eirika got an alt in the middle of CYL2 voting, and many of her fans seem to have bailed on her, feeling that it decreased the value of a CYL version of her and using their remaining votes for other characters they liked instead.

Camilla fans seem to feel differently. I have guesses as to why, but I'm also curious if any Camilla fans want to give their own take on the discrepancy.

As someone who likes both Eirika and Camilla, I can say that there is one difference. Think about Marth. Think about how people were on the warpath about making him win, but after legendary Marth, they calmed down a little.

Many people value seasonal randumb alts and serious alts, grounded in the lore of the characters, differently.

A legendary alt may satisfy the desire for a CYL alt, but no amount of seasonals will satisfy that desire.

Camilla is a bit unique in the sense that two of her alts are "serious", and grounded in her world. They are Camilla in Hoshido and Camilla in Valla.

But Camilla in a different kingdom isn't what people want from the CYL version. We want Camilla with Bolverk, or Siegfried. If we had gotten a legendary alt that was exactly that perhaps less people would care to get a CYL Camilla.

Edited by GrandeRampel

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11 minutes ago, Othin said:

It's an interesting contrast with what happened with Eirika last year. Eirika got an alt in the middle of CYL2 voting, and many of her fans seem to have bailed on her, feeling that it decreased the value of a CYL version of her and using their remaining votes for other characters they liked instead.

Camilla fans seem to feel differently. I have guesses as to why, but I'm also curious if any Camilla fans want to give their own take on the discrepancy.

Throwing in my own two cents on this, though IDK if it's worth anything:

I don't think the situations between Camilla and Eirika are 100% analogous. Camilla's alts have pretty much all been seasonal, and I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to draw a distinction between Brave alts and seasonals.

On the other hand, Sacred Memories Eirika feels very much like a CYL-like alt, being a sort of alternate lore-based take on the character. I guess you could argue Adrift Camilla fits that bill as well, but the whole Adrift banner was kinda weird, so to me it doesn't quite fit the bill in the same way Eirika's alt did.

I suppose the distinction is subjective, but I don't think it's unreasonable to draw one.

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16 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

What about time and place? I'm pretty sure this is the CYL3 discussion thread, not the "trash Camilla and alts" thread, unless I'm mistaken. My comments have been largely on-topic, just not sharing the group sentiment, it seems. If people are going to dislike me or anybody else over character alts in a phone game I don't think I'm the one with the problem.

I could just as well make issue with the one-sided whining for the past 50 pages this thread has turned into, but since here that's the majority's opinion I'm the one with the problematic posts for not following suit. If anything, people here could use to see more differing opinions. The absolute bafflement I've seen about Camilla's placing shows that a lot of people may be more out of touch with the overall fanbase than they think.

Did I say that it was okay for people to trash Camilla and her alts? No, no I didn't. I don't approve of outright "trashing" a character how much I may not care for them. Expressing dislike is fine as long as it's not overdrawn or virulent. Also, you're right that this is the CYL discussion thread -- meaning that people who post here have varying opinions and thoughts about the current leaderboard. Meaning that I'm completely within my rights to express my opinion that maybe this might not be the best time or place right now with the mood not entirely settled?

Also, are you aware that reasonable people don't dislike other people just because they're fans of a character or their alts? It's the overall attitude one projects. You also have not addressed my actual argument, you're just getting defense and ranting about things that are not even relevant to what I even said or asked, which gives me the feeling that you're not listening, and you don't care to listen. Maybe you should take your own advice and also see more differing opinions.

Edited by Sunwoo

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Fans of older characters, we know that there is not much food at the table for us.  So we share as much as we can.  That is the discrepancy between Eirika and Camilla fans.  Eirika fans were like...ooh that is enough, there are so many other important older characters to get in.  However if Awakening/Fates is all one is into, then most of the important characters are already there, so why not just have more alts of one's favorite?  

 

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1 minute ago, Sunwoo said:

Did I say that it was okay for people to trash Camilla and her alts? No, no I didn't. I don't approve of outright "trashing" a character how much I may not care for them. Expressing dislike is fine as long as it's not overdrawn or virulent. Also, you're right that this is the CYL discussion thread -- meaning that people who post here have varying opinions and thoughts about the current leaderboard. Meaning that I'm completely within my rights to express my opinion that maybe this might not be the best place to talk about this?

Also, are you aware that reasonable people don't dislike other people just because they're fans of a character or their alts? It's the overall attitude one projects. You also have not addressed my actual argument, you're just getting defense and ranting about things that are not even relevant to what I even said or asked, which gives me the feeling that you're not listening, and you don't care to listen. Maybe you should take your own advice and also see more differing opinions.

I agree, people should be free to express their opinions here. But what you're saying just sounds like I shouldn't express my excitement about new alts because it might be upsetting when everyone's busy complaining about them. Well, I find some opinions in this thread upsetting too, but I won't tell them they shouldn't say them. They can express their dislike all they want, and I'm going to express my excitement too. It's sad when saying something positive about the game could get you in trouble.

Indeed, yet you threatened people will dislike me and other Camilla fans for enjoying themselves right now. I'm not going to walk on eggshells about being happy any more than everyone else is about being upset. I'm not even making rude comments, but it doesn't seem I have to.

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9 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

As someone who likes both Eirika and Camilla, I can say that there is one difference. Think about Marth. Think about how people were on the warpath about making him win, but after legendary Marth, they calmed down a little.

Many people value seasonal randumb alts and serious alts, grounded in the lore of the characters, differently.

A legendary alt may satisfy the desire for a CYL alt, but no amount of seasonals will satisfy that desire.

Camilla is a bit unique in the sense that two of her alts are "serious", and grounded in her world. They are Camilla in Hoshido and Camilla in Valla.

But Camilla in a different kingdom isn't what people want from the CYL version. We want Camilla with Bolverk, or Siegfried. If we had gotten a legendary alt that was exactly that perhaps less people would care to get a CYL Camilla.

 

8 minutes ago, Robert of Normandy said:

Throwing in my own two cents on this, though IDK if it's worth anything:

I don't think the situations between Camilla and Eirika are 100% analogous. Camilla's alts have pretty much all been seasonal, and I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to draw a distinction between Brave alts and seasonals.

On the other hand, Sacred Memories Eirika feels very much like a CYL-like alt, being a sort of alternate lore-based take on the character. I guess you could argue Adrift Camilla fits that bill as well, but the whole Adrift banner was kinda weird, so to me it doesn't quite fit the bill in the same way Eirika's alt did.

I suppose the distinction is subjective, but I don't think it's unreasonable to draw one.

That's true, and I do think it's significant. But Adrift does also seem relevant to me. I agree that Brave Camilla would likely use Bolverk, but I can also see her being more along the lines of Adrift Camilla, and there's no way to tell for sure. (And there was a similar argument available for Eirika, for people who wanted her as a mounted sword user. Although that's also covered by now.)

I think that if one of Camilla's alts had been replaced with a more conventional "serious" alt of some sort, she would lose some of her CYL3 votes, but would still be placing quite high. My impression is that, on average, Camilla fans are interested in a narrower set of FE characters than fans of other top CYL characters are. I have two main guesses for causes of that: she's from Fates (so people who've played only recent games will know her, but not most of the others) and she has some... more unusual characteristics, making for less overlap in interest. (Of course, as @GrandeRampel shows, the lack of overlap isn't an absolute, just a potential tendency.)

1 minute ago, Lewyn said:

Fans of older characters, we know that there is not much food at the table for us.  So we share as much as we can.  That is the discrepancy between Eirika and Camilla fans.  Eirika fans were like...ooh that is enough, there are so many other important older characters to get in.  However if Awakening/Fates is all one is into, then most of the important characters are already there, so why not just have more alts of one's favorite?  

 

Just as I was about to send the rest of the stuff I'd typed, you put it even more concisely, lol.

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26 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Eirika fans were like...ooh that is enough, there are so many other important older characters to get in.

Yeah, this part doesn't quite work when we have Eirika fans in this very topic who aren't being quite as altruistic as you like to think they are (which is to say, they're still voting for Eirika anyways). That, and clearly enough of them overall don't give a shit about helping other characters get in (which isn't even the primary purpose of CYL anyways, so of course that shouldn't be a concern for them or really anyone) if Eirika is still up there in the female standings at 4th.

"Selfishness" isn't exclusive to the newer fans, even though you'd like to think that.

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On the "why did Eirika lose some votes in CYL2"... I think you also have to consider that Eirika hadn't had ANY alts when CYL2 started. If characters bleed support in CYL due to getting alts, it probably occurs mostly when they get the first alt, and cross the line from "hasn't had an alt" to "has had one". I would suspect that's the same reason Alm is doing as well as he is right now. But I doubt many voters care nearly as much about whether someone has one alt (Micaiah), two (F-Robin), three (Eirika), or six (Camilla). The "give someone else a chance!" crowd will already have moved on, the fans who don't hold with that view will stay.

It's been said already, but keep in mind that based on CYL1 (the closest thing to a "true" measure of character popularity, untainted by FEH politics, that we have), Camilla should absolutely now be one of the very very strongest female characters remaining in the pool (her main competition for this, Tharja, has seen her relative support collapse a bit since CYL1, along with various other Awakening characters; I can think of theories why but they're off topic). In other words, yes, she has probably bled some support, but is still strong enough to be above e.g. Micaiah/Azura/Eirika, whom she was significantly stronger than at base (and anyway, every female character anywhere near as strong as her has had alts too.

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3 hours ago, Othin said:

It's essentially the same as a cut to top 5 or so. That's a well-established system, and no one complained about it with A Hero Rises.

I do think they should be more upfront about it (announcing ahead of time that midterm results will be a thing and when) but I like the general concept of them.

The one defining difference that I can think of is that the CYL midterms show a definitive order while the AHR second round just showed the top 10(?) results. That combined with the freedom to vote for your favorite nobodies still creates the impression that people are voting to take a spot away from a character in a more active way than AHR did. Think about last year, if all we knew was that Camilla and Marth were in the top 20 of their groups, not that they were tentative winners, it doesn't seem like there would've been as much of an outcry that they had their spots taken from them.

As far as the Camilla vs Eirika topic, my less cynical take on it would be that fans of Eirika tend to be fans of the older games as a whole (heck SS is 15 years old almost). As a result, there's more characters they'd like to see added and so they're more inclined to feel that no one character should get too much spotlight so as to give all their favorites a chance to get in. Camilla, fans as far as I've noticed, tend to be fans of Fates and Awakening, meaning a much smaller population of characters that they like meaning any given character can get more spotlight without drastically decreasing the odds of all of their favorites getting in. There are other factors like the acceptability of alts relative to then and now and the type of alts as others brought up which probably do play a role, but that's what jumps out at me most. Both are acting primarily in their own self-interest, just those self-interests are displayed in different ways.

Tagging @Tybrosion for what's hopefully a more neutral way of phrasing what Lewyn was saying.

Edited by bottlegnomes

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Predicting who will win:

Males:
1. Alm (cause Alm)
2. Marth (cause Marth)

Females:
1. Micaiah (the main character to go to, along with F!Robin, in order to vote off Camilla)
2. Camilla (I feel like given how the mid-results woke up some people, they'll be desperately trying to push Camilla off. However, I feel like that won't be enough this time around and she'll barely hang on)

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There is so much wrong with Eirika vs Camilla construct that I’m almost tempted to make a text wall ...

But the short of it is, don’t treat aggregates as mutually exclusive, coordinated groups. And even more importantly, do not create an artificial opinion and pretend it applies to even a single individual.

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51 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Fans of older characters, we know that there is not much food at the table for us.  So we share as much as we can.  That is the discrepancy between Eirika and Camilla fans.  Eirika fans were like...ooh that is enough, there are so many other important older characters to get in.  However if Awakening/Fates is all one is into, then most of the important characters are already there, so why not just have more alts of one's favorite?  

 

Not gonna say I disagree but I feel like you're generalizing a bit here. I'm more in line with what @Tybrosion is saying. I mean I'm a pretty big awakening/fates fan and even I know when to say enough is enough. tbh what you're saying here sounds a little condescending. Again I don't necessarily disagree with the point itself just the way you said it.

Edited by Ottservia

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Whatever the difference in psychology between the older and newer players, I think there can be consensus that it would be better if the playing field was more level. And of course, that means making the older games more accessible.

I'm not saying opening the old games to new players will convert Awakening-Fates fans into Nondenominational or Telliusian or Jugdrali or Elibean Emblemiers. The age of these games has the real potential turn them off, as does the absence of avatars, VAs, Casual, grinding, S supports and kids. But it can't hurt to expand their viable horizons.

 

And I don't get why people consider Blazing and SS "accessible". Yes, Tellius is harder to get access to, but Nintendo's only VCing of FE7 and SS (ignore the Ambassadors) were on the Wii U- aka the console that got abandoned prematurely because it sold so badly (and yet I loved it and it gave us TMS). How many emulate (and you could always do Tellius that way), and how many, even if it is cheaper, are willing to buy a relic known as a GBA/pre-"i"-DS and proper cartridge? 

Really, the only truly accessible FEs right now are 11, 13, 14, and 15. (And this obviously ignores of the untranslated slate of games.)

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Here's a crazy prediction for the final results (because I love making them and love it on the instances where I'm actually right):

On the male's side of the bracket:
Marth is going to shoot up to first place and be the overall winner with the most votes of anyone, period. Alm will continue to go strong, but the quiet support Eliwood has been getting will just BARELY overtake Alm, netting Eliwood second place, and Alm a very close third. Bruno will zip past everyone else and tkae fourth place.

On the female's side:
Midpoint results are going to seriously hurt Camilla. Eirika will jump up and take second place, while Micaiah shoots up to first. Camilla will drop down to FIFTH, with Awakening Anna and Female Robin taking third and fourth. Louise and Nino will also place in the top 10, but not terribly highly.

Edited by Fire Emblem Fan

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10 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Here's a crazy prediction for the final results (because I love making them and love it on the instances where I'm actually right):

On the male's side of the bracket:
Marth is going to shoot up to first place and be the overall winner with the most votes of anyone, period. Alm will continue to go strong, but the quiet support Eliwood has been getting will just BARELY overtake Alm, netting Eliwood second place, and Alm a very close third. Bruno will zip past everyone else and tkae fourth place.

On the female's side:
Midpoint results are going to seriously hurt both Micaiah and Camilla. Eirika will jump up and take second place, while Micaiah shoots up to first. Camilla will drop down to FIFTH, with Awakening Anna and Female Robin taking third and fourth. Louise and Nino will also place in the top 10, but not terribly highly.

How is your prediction implying Micaiah will be seriously hurt?

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17 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And I don't get why people consider Blazing and SS "accessible". Yes, Tellius is harder to get access to, but Nintendo's only VCing of FE7 and SS (ignore the Ambassadors) were on the Wii U- aka the console that got abandoned prematurely because it sold so badly (and yet I loved it and it gave us TMS). How many emulate (and you could always do Tellius that way), and how many, even if it is cheaper, are willing to buy a relic known as a GBA/pre-"i"-DS and proper cartridge?

Regarding the emulation factor, from personal and anecdotal experience, the GBA games are far easier to emulate. The only halfway decent GC/Wii emulator that I'm aware of is still pretty flaky and prone to crashing. It's also more hardware intensive. Granted, my computer is quite old, but for comparison, the GBA ones run perfectly fine while PoR and RD capped at about 35 FPS, often closer to 25, and occasionally in the teens. That said, I do agree that people exaggerate the accessibility of any of the non-3DS games.

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11 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

How is your prediction implying Micaiah will be seriously hurt?

That was a mistype, I meant Camilla and AZURA. Azura is going to drop from where she already is, I think. Edited Micaiah out and am honestly too lazy to add the Azura bit.

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40 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Really, the only truly accessible FEs right now are 11, 13, 14, and 15. (And this obviously ignores of the untranslated slate of games.)

Indeed. They really need remakes or new Virtual Console releases to gain a bigger audience. The average person is not going to bother jumping through hoops to emulate or hunt down second hand copies of older titles after jumping in with the newer games. Even more so with Japanese-only titles that require fan translations. And I think that's perfectly fair.

In light of that, I think it'd also help for the community to not draw such a line between the newer and older fans, making newer ones feel like the 3DS games are a different entity and incentivizing them further to not bother digging up the older stuff.

Edited by Alkaid

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