New Heroes & Ascended Mareeta

[Mercakete]

Huh, that one staffer looks pretty nice as a unit. That said, I think I'm skipping this banner. I need to save up for the upcoming kiddos! X3

As for everything else, I may want to nab that peg lady's lance sometime. (Allied Lance would go super well with the Bunny Henry I wound up building on a whim. I may wind up making a cav team and there's no shortage of good lance cavs. Maybe I should restrict this team to Plegians...Eh, that pool might be too narrow, actually... I'll work it out.) Other than that, I think I'm fine.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Then the best choice for the first Thracia ascended unit, I think, would be Earth Sword Nana. This is a signature weapon for both her games that is missing from heroes and ascended units, if they should be anything, should be for exploring alternate potential in characters. Mareeta,  with her two versions in the game already, was a pretty well represented and fully explored character in Heroes. Ascended Mareeta doesn't really give us any other Mareeta aspect (as far as I can see). If just has her powercreeping herself.

I'm predicting that they're saving Nanna and Finn for Legendary Heroes instead of Ascended Heroes due to the fact that they're "main characters" to the same extent that Caeda and Lilina are.

And even though I listed Eyvel as a potential Ascended Hero, I doubt she would be since that would essentially just end up being Briggid minus Ichii-bal.

 

3 hours ago, FailWood said:

That's not what I was saying.  I was indirectly agreeing with Sunwoo's dislike of Galzus getting a lackluster kit because both him and Mareeta are Red, and since she's meant to be the star of the banner, he had to be made worse to accommodate.  You can take your assumption about me and shove it.

I have no idea what assumption you're talking about. I simply stated a fact that there simply aren't that many options for Ascended Heroes from Thracia.

[Baldrick]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

ascended units, if they should be anything, should be for exploring alternate potential in characters.

 

I think seasonal units fill that niche already, and there’s a lot more of them (even counting Legendary units which are essentially the same concept as Ascended characters)

Quote

Mareeta,  with her two versions in the game already, was a pretty well represented and fully explored character in Heroes. Ascended Mareeta doesn't really give us any other Mareeta aspect (as far as I can see). If just has her powercreeping herself.

I don’t disagree that other characters deserve representation more, but she’s not just a swordmaster in gameplay. Her goal is to master the sword. Power creeping herself is the perfect way to capture that concept.

[FailWood]

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You say that as if there were oh so many other characters would've even qualified as an Ascended Hero from Thracia.

7 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I have no idea what assumption you're talking about. I simply stated a fact that there simply aren't that many options for Ascended Heroes from Thracia.

It's how you said "if there were oh so many other characters would've even qualified".  The way you phrased it made it sound like I was complaining that Mareeta got picked to be an Ascended Hero when that's not what I was saying, and it came off as belittling.

[Tybrosion]

26 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm predicting that they're saving Nanna and Finn for Legendary Heroes instead of Ascended Heroes due to the fact that they're "main characters" to the same extent that Caeda and Lilina are.

I'm pretty sure it was a combination of popularity and "main character" status that got Lilina and Caeda (23rd and 31st in CYL6 respectively) their Legendaries.

Nanna....just isn't popular in the slightest (343rd in CYL6) and it shows in both her lack of alts compared to Lilina or Caeda and the fact Nanna only got her first alt last year (and as a Grail unit rather than a premium banner unit).

Personally, I don't see any reason why they'd pick her to be a Legendary (not even to just give Thracia another Legendary, because Finn would do a better job in fulfilling that) over literally any of the other main candidates at this point.

[Xenomata]

3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

I think seasonal units fill that niche already, and there’s a lot more of them (even counting Legendary units which are essentially the same concept as Ascended characters)

I don't think that checks out... in the first place, a large number of units do not even come from games where reclassing is possible, so for instance Lyn being able to use Blue Tomes or Daggers shouldn't work out when she can never use either of those weapons. Same with Roy and Bows, Marth and Bows, Innes and Axes, Tana and Red Tomes, I could go on.
Even characters with access to reclassing aren't that plausible at times. Frederick cannot use Daggers (and does not have any classes that could feesibly use swords as daggers), Faye can't use a bow, Hilda has a weakness in White Magic, again could go on.

It just doesn't always work like that. Yeah I'm sure they take some inspiration from what is possible in the base games, or they could give Alm an Axe, which can't even be wielded by usable units let alone Alm the can't-reclass Lord, and then make any character who is a Dragon or Beast continue to be a Dragon or Beast, but a different color and maybe a different move type, for all that even changes in some cases.

It's also just not possible to say they're exploring "alternate potential" when Felix the not-a-bow user is deciding to use a Bow while dressed in an outfit he doesn't even want to be in in the first place. Just let seasonals be units enjoying a festival, I don't think there's that deep a meaning to it anyway.

[Ice Dragon]

18 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Nanna....just isn't popular in the slightest (343rd in CYL6) and it shows in both her lack of alts compared to Lilina or Caeda and the fact Nanna only got her first alt last year (and as a Grail unit rather than a premium banner unit).

That can simply be attributed to a negative feedback loop, though. Nanna did not have popularity to start with, being from games that were never released outside of Japan and having her original Heroes version be a completely forgettable 4-star staff cavalry, and they never bothered to change that by giving her a memorable alt.

Legendary/Mythic Heroes are not solely dependent on popularity to sell their banners. If the character can't sell the banner on their own, that can be made up for by the unit.

I wouldn't count Nanna out of eventually getting a Legendary version. There's no reason Nanna's lack of popularity should be a problem.

 

7 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I don't think that checks out... in the first place, a large number of units do not even come from games where reclassing is possible, so for instance Lyn being able to use Blue Tomes or Daggers shouldn't work out when she can never use either of those weapons. Same with Roy and Bows, Marth and Bows, Innes and Axes, Tana and Red Tomes, I could go on.
Even characters with access to reclassing aren't that plausible at times. Frederick cannot use Daggers (and does not have any classes that could feesibly use swords as daggers), Faye can't use a bow, Hilda has a weakness in White Magic, again could go on.

It just doesn't always work like that. Yeah I'm sure they take some inspiration from what is possible in the base games, or they could give Alm an Axe, which can't even be wielded by usable units let alone Alm the can't-reclass Lord, and then make any character who is a Dragon or Beast continue to be a Dragon or Beast, but a different color and maybe a different move type, for all that even changes in some cases.

It's also just not possible to say they're exploring "alternate potential" when Felix the not-a-bow user is deciding to use a Bow while dressed in an outfit he doesn't even want to be in in the first place. Just let seasonals be units enjoying a festival, I don't think there's that deep a meaning to it anyway.

I'm not entirely sure you got the same out of what @Baldrick was saying that I got.

It sounded to me that they were saying that "exploring alternate potential" in characters is already served by the purpose of seasonal event units, hence why they often come with movement and weapon types that they cannot normally have in their original game.

As such, there shouldn't be any pressure on Legendary and Ascended Heroes on serving the same purpose as seasonal units, and they can instead focus on versions of the character that are closer to canon.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Ice Dragon

[Baldrick]

@Xenomata

What Ice Dragon said is correct. I figured by “alternate potential” Jotari meant non-canon weapons.

 

[Tybrosion]

Stats [SPOILERS]:

Spoiler

Mareeta
Super Asset(s): Atk, Res
Super Flaw(s): HP, Spd

Galzus
Super Asset(s): Spd
Super Flaw(s): HP, Atk

Karin
Super Asset(s): Atk, Spd, Def
Super Flaw(s): HP
*Atk/Def Form 3 is the 4* unlock also the same as Groom Zelot lol.

August
Super Asset(s): Atk
Super Flaw(s): HP, Spd, Res

Salem
Super Asset(s): none
Super Flaw(s): none

Skill kit is: Raudrvulture+, -, Glacies, Atk/Res Push 3 [4* unlock], Sabotage Atk 3, -

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Tybrosion

[Ice Dragon]

Stats response:

Spoiler

Mareeta and Galzus are unsurprising.

Even if Galzus is generally underwhelming due to lacking an exclusive weapon, I'm glad they at least tried to make his stat spread a bit more unique, as he currently has the highest Atk of all sword infantry (2 points higher than second place without Assets) while still having a good Spd stat (2 points below first place with Assets).

Karin is just Marcia with 1 more Spd and swapped defenses.

We already knew August's stats, and I already addressed them in my previous analysis.

Salem is surprisingly fast, but is ultimately just a weaker Pelleas with more Res and is also very comparable to Miranda, who has a very similar -2/-1/+0/+4/-1 compared to Salem after Dragonflowers. As far as 4-star red tomes go, you're probably better off using Erk, and Miranda is easier to merge if you specifically need one from Thracia, though she needs more Dragonflowers.

 

[Florete]

1 hour ago, Tybrosion said:

I'm pretty sure it was a combination of popularity and "main character" status that got Lilina and Caeda (23rd and 31st in CYL6 respectively) their Legendaries.

Nanna....just isn't popular in the slightest (343rd in CYL6) and it shows in both her lack of alts compared to Lilina or Caeda and the fact Nanna only got her first alt last year (and as a Grail unit rather than a premium banner unit).

Personally, I don't see any reason why they'd pick her to be a Legendary (not even to just give Thracia another Legendary, because Finn would do a better job in fulfilling that) over literally any of the other main candidates at this point.

Finn and Nanna can both be legendary candidates. Besides, if not them, who? Leif is the only Thracia legendary currently. It's even possible they're saving legendary Nanna/Finn for a potential Thracia remake, which would easily boost their popularity.

Almost all of the big names for legendaries have already been used. IS considers Nanna the female Thracia lead (based on the leads banner from a few years back), so she's likely on the table for a legendary alt.

[Some Jerk]

VITAL ASTRA IS INHERITABLE!?!?!

[LoneStar]

30 minutes ago, Some Jerk said:

VITAL ASTRA IS INHERITABLE!?!?!

So this is the bait from this banner. It's pretty strong, although few units can make the best use of it. From the "At start of combat" wording you need the special ready before entering combat for the dodge effect. Still 30% speed special is nice after all these years.

If I had a high invested Brave Celica I would want this for her.

Edited March 18, 2022 by LoneStar

[Tybrosion]

Huh, that’s one way to get people interested in a Thracia banner.

RIP to all the Ascended Mareetas who are dying tonight though.

[Humanoid]

So Galzus has the last laugh anyway, an in ironic sort of justice.

[Ice Dragon]

Vital Astra being inheritable is a surprise, at least. It has the same inheritance restrictions as the Dodge skills, which makes sense.

It out-damages Ruptured Sky on invested fast units against human opponents, but Ruptured Sky hits harder against dragons and beasts, so at least there's a trade-off involved. Similarly, the exclusive Astra skills both out-damage Vital Astra, but don't have the Dodge effect.

Even with the restrictions, it's nice to finally have an inheritable Spd-based Special.

 

As a side note, Ayra can now get up to 66% damage reduction with Vital Astra, and Yen'fay can get up to 75% damage reduction, though Yen'fay might have trouble keeping the skill charged.

 

43 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

So Galzus has the last laugh anyway, an in ironic sort of justice.

If he weren't already Surge Sparrow fodder.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Ice Dragon

[Humanoid]

36 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If he weren't already Surge Sparrow fodder.

Well yeah, but if you can't win, you can at least take someone down with you.

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

And even though I listed Eyvel as a potential Ascended Hero, I doubt she would be since that would essentially just end up being Briggid minus Ichii-bal.

Honestly I would be surprised if they gave us Ascended Brigid before normal Brigid. They did, for some resaon see fit to give us Eyvel, Pirate Brigid and even Ullr before actual Brigid -_-

Quote

I'm predicting that they're saving Nanna and Finn for Legendary Heroes instead of Ascended Heroes due to the fact that they're "main characters" to the same extent that Caeda and Lilina are.

I have no idea what assumption you're talking about. I simply stated a fact that there simply aren't that many options for Ascended Heroes from Thracia.

That's kind of just your assumption though. We have a pattern of only three characters so far for Ascended heroes which isn't anything at all. For all we know we could both legendary and ascended characters. You really think Idunn, for examle, couldn't have been a legendary or mythic?Even disregarding Finn and Nana, Thracia isn't lacking in characters that could conceivably be Ascended units.

*Reinhardt 

*Olwin

*Saias

*Ced

*Miranda

*Linoan

*Veld

*Raydrik

*Lifis

All of these characters are plot relevant enough to get an ascended hero (they're not all necessarily popular enough, but it's Thracia, no one is popular). That's ten characters (excluding Mareeta). Even if you say half of those characters aren't good enough (and once again we have no metric to judge what even is ascended worthy, the closest is that it's a post game form of a character so only surviving characters count, but I wouldn't bet against them not following that paradigm for Ascended Reinhardt, though now that I think of it almost all Thracia bosses can technically survive) that's still like 10% of the roster. Mareeta was far from the only choice.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Jotari

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Baldrick said:

@Xenomata

What Ice Dragon said is correct. I figured by “alternate potential” Jotari meant non-canon weapons.

 

Oh no, quite the opposite. The whole point is that Nana has a canonical sword she's not using.

[Othin]

9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

And even though I listed Eyvel as a potential Ascended Hero, I doubt she would be since that would essentially just end up being Briggid minus Ichii-bal.

I don't think that's quite right. Regular Brigid would be as of Genealogy Gen 1, while Ascended Eyvel would be post-Thracia with both sets of memories. They also could use different colored bows. So I'd say there would be a point in having them coexist.

5 hours ago, Some Jerk said:

VITAL ASTRA IS INHERITABLE!?!?!

what the fuck

[Baldrick]

Mareeta truly is brilliant. Not only did she create the first speed-based evasion technique, but she also created a speed-based special attack that can be learnt by anyone (who is an infantry melee weapon user). People come from far and wide to study under her and make her skills their own.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

Mareeta truly is brilliant. Not only did she create the first speed-based evasion technique, but she also created a speed-based special attack that can be learnt by anyone (who is an infantry melee weapon user). People come from far and wide to study under her and make her skills their own.

Of course, she is only passing on what she learned from another.

 

[Othin]

Between Carnage Amatsu, Vital Astra, and Spurn, Yen'fay can now get 74.8% damage reduction without team support. That's ridiculous.

[Ice Dragon]

22 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's kind of just your assumption though. We have a pattern of only three characters so far for Ascended heroes which isn't anything at all. For all we know we could both legendary and ascended characters. You really think Idunn, for examle, couldn't have been a legendary or mythic?Even disregarding Finn and Nana, Thracia isn't lacking in characters that could conceivably be Ascended units.

[snip list]

All of these characters are plot relevant enough to get an ascended hero (they're not all necessarily popular enough, but it's Thracia, no one is popular). That's ten characters (excluding Mareeta). Even if you say half of those characters aren't good enough (and once again we have no metric to judge what even is ascended worthy, the closest is that it's a post game form of a character so only surviving characters count, but I wouldn't bet against them not following that paradigm for Ascended Reinhardt, though now that I think of it almost all Thracia bosses can technically survive) that's still like 10% of the roster. Mareeta was far from the only choice.

Even with only three units, I think we already have a good enough idea that Ascended Heroes serve a similar role as Legendary Heroes (which we have a lot of examples of), but are for characters that are less important than Legendary Heroes. They could certainly expand it later, but the probability of that happening this early is fairly low.

The probability that they'd make a unit both Legendary and Ascended is astronomically low. The only units I think could potentially get such a treatment are Binding Blade's Eliwood and Hector, and even then, I'm skeptical that they'd even want to do that.

Idunn is more of a stretch for a Legendary or Mythic version than Nanna or Finn are for a Legendary version. While Idunn would not be out of place as a Legendary or Mythic Hero, her qualifications are closer to Fae's and certainly aren't anywhere near Nanna's or Finn's. There's absolutely no reason they'd have Nanna or Finn be an Ascended Hero.

Linoan and Leidrik aren't even in the game yet, and Lifis doesn't have a normal version released yet. Even if they would qualify as Ascended Heroes as characters (and I'm doubtful of Leidrik and Lifis), there is no way they would be released that this time and later have their normal versions power creep them.

I also don't see Veld getting an Ascended version at all. Veld's normal version is already functionally his "final form". There is no room for him to ascend. As far as non-surviving bosses go, Hasha's Zephiel is one of the few characters that I can actually see getting an Ascended version (whereas the Fallen banner makes more sense for most powered up enemies), but only if we ever get around to any kind of representation for Hasha.

I don't know much about Miranda, so I can't argue either direction.

I'll admit that I hadn't thought of Sety previously, and he'd probably be a better candidate than Eyvel (due to the weirdness of not yet having normal Briggid in the game yet, though it would also be weird if Ascended Eyvel were stronger than Briggid with Ichii-bal), even if his Ascended version ends up being from a different game than his normal version.

So that still leaves me with only Eyvel, Sety, and Cyas as the most likely contenders (after second thought, I've also bumped up Cyas into this category), Reinhardt and Olwen as reaches, and I-don't-know-enough-about-Miranda-to-make-a-judgment.

EDIT: Fixed the formatting.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Ice Dragon

[Zeo]

Technically this is on topic but... what is better for Ascended Mareeta? +SPD or +ATK? The former is pretty much what all of her abilities scale off of, but she has a super boon in the latter.