Ike is just a worse Sigurd

[AnonymousSpeed]

You got a blue-haired pretty boy.

His father is a man of great standing with high proficiency in swords.

The father flees from the empire he served, and the boy inherits his sword prowess.

His sister is a mounted unit with swords and staves.

This boy has no good romantic pairings- no romantic choices at all, actually.

He inherits authority over a group of warriors due to his parentage.

The game he's in centers around a decades-long conflict involving a dark dragon deity sealed away in some terribly mundane object.

A light-haired girl with light magic bearing the powers of this chaos deity proves to be an important ally.

Also, the game he first appears in sucks and is much, much worse than it's unorthodox sequel with no real support conversations.

The only difference is that Ike doesn't have a horse, so he's actually worse than Sigurd.

As much as people praise Ike for his commoner status, he really isn't any less lucky than Sigurd is. He learns sword techniques from one of the greatest swordsmen of all time. He inherits command of the Greil Mercenaries, who had a lucrative royal contract because of the reputation is acquired under Greil's leadership. If he's too weak to beat the Black Knight or Ashnard, superhuman furries come and bail him out. I think Sigurd actually displays better leadership qualities just in the Ayra recruitment than Ike does in the entirety of FE9. He's also actually good, unlike Ike in FE9, so you get the feeling he's pulling his own weight and then some instead of being dragged forward by Titania because she had the hots for ghost dad.

Edited May 7, 2022 by AnonymousSpeed

[Acacia Sgt]

Makes one wonder how exactly Ike is supposedly more relatable than the other Lords, then.

Since he is certainly still way above many of us in standing or in what opportunities and advantages one has available.

I'd say, in the past I've compared Ike with Raven (Soren is Lucius), but admittedly haven't seen the Sigurd comparison.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

(1) You got a blue-haired pretty boy.

(2) His father is a man of great standing with high proficiency in swords.

(3) The father flees from the empire he served, and the boy inherits his sword prowess.

(4) His sister is a mounted unit with swords and staves.

(5) This boy has no good romantic pairings- no romantic choices at all, actually.

(6) He inherits authority over a group of warriors due to his parentage.

(7) The game he's in centers around a decades-long conflict involving a dark dragon deity sealed away in some terribly mundane object.

(8) A light-haired girl with light magic bearing the powers of this chaos deity proves to be an important ally.

(9) Also, the game he first appears in sucks and is much, much worse than it's unorthodox sequel with no real support conversations.

1. That's almost every FE lord. Besides, he ceases being a "pretty boy" in Radiant Dawn.

2. A common mercenary/wanted fugitive living under an alias isn't exactly a man of high standing. Yes, Greil used to be a Rider of Daein; the key part there is "used to be". He lost all his standing when he had to flee Daein to get the medallion away from Ashnard.

3. Daein wasn't an empire when Greil fled it; it was a backwater nation that used to be a part of Begnion. As for "and the boy inherits his sword prowess", you're ignoring all the scenes of Ike constantly training as well as him starting out as a complete newbie rookie.

4. I'll give you that one.

5. I'll give you that one as well; Ike really should've ended up with Elincia; they had a lot of chemistry and their dynamic and conversations were actually very interesting.

6. Everyone does; it's the Middle Ages. Even peasant farmers largely inherited their farms. Social standing determined your inheritance and profession; this was true for the upper classes and the lower classes alike. The difference between Ike and Sigurd in this regard is that Ike inherits a tiny mercenary company that barely makes enough income to keep the lights on and mostly deals with bandits; Sigurd inherits knights.

7. Congratulations; it's a Fire Emblem game. You described a Fire Emblem game. Also, this removes all context from both games' plots.

8. This one is very weirdly and specifically worded as if constrained to fit both games.

9. Okay; you're just wrong here. Path of Radiance is indisputably the best Fire Emblem game.

 

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

As much as people praise Ike for his commoner status, he really isn't any less lucky than Sigurd is. He learns sword techniques from one of the greatest swordsmen of all time. He inherits command of the Greil Mercenaries, who had a lucrative royal contract because of the reputation is acquired under Greil's leadership. If he's too weak to beat the Black Knight or Ashnard, superhuman furries come and bail him out. I think Sigurd actually displays better leadership qualities just in the Ayra recruitment than Ike does in the entirety of FE9. He's also actually good, unlike Ike in FE9, so you get the feeling he's pulling his own weight and then some instead of being dragged forward by Titania because she had the hots for ghost dad.

I'll give you him learning from the greatest swordsmen.

"Lucrative royal contract"? "Obtained because of their reputation acquired under Greil's leadership"? Did we play the same Tellius games? If you're talking about the contract to protect Elincia, that had nothing to do with Greil; Ike found her, and Elincia hired them because she had no other choice as she just lost her kingdom and the knights that were assigned to protect her. If you're talking about any contracts they obtain in Radiant Dawn, again, those had nothing to do with Greil; those had everything to do with Ike's actions and victories in Path of Radiance.

Laguz saving Ike from the Black Knight only happens once in the entire series, and when it happens, it's in Gallia: the Beast Tribe Laguz homeland. That's like saying it's lucky that Buckingham Palace guards saved someone inside Buckingham Palace.

I don't understand that next sentence. What do you mean by "Ayra"?

Ike is a good leader in FE9, and his growth as both a leader and a fighter is a big part of his journey in the story. Ike does "pull his weight and then some."

Edited May 7, 2022 by vanguard333

[Etrurian emperor]

I'm not sure Sigurd can be called a prettyboy with his more mature features and gigantic chin. Also Ike kinda succeeds at everything and is seen as a legend, while Sigurd crashes and burns.

[vanguard333]

19 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm not sure Sigurd can be called a pretty boy with his more mature features and gigantic chin. Also Ike kinda succeeds at everything and is seen as a legend, while Sigurd crashes and burns.

Emphasis on the "burns" part.

Sorry; I couldn't resist making that joke.

[Acacia Sgt]

So can you say Ike is worse at failing than Sigurd?

Though granted, Sigurd was more like limping on the final stretch then trip before the finish line.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The game he's in centers around a decades-long conflict involving a dark dragon deity sealed away in some terribly mundane object.

Yune's not a dragon, though. And Loptyr's status as a "deity" is at least debatable.

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

If he's too weak to beat the Black Knight or Ashnard, superhuman furries come and bail him out.

Scalies, actually.

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

This boy has no good romantic pairings- no romantic choices at all, actually.

If we count RD, Ike gets two paired endings. Make of that what you will.

[Icelerate]

They are two completely different characters in completely different settings. I like Sigurd more but no need to compare the two qualitatively. 

[Sunwoo]

I've never once considered Ike and Sigurd to be similar character archetypes at all.

For one, Sigurd is a hopeless straight romantic who falls in love with a mystery woman at first sight and sires a child. (And having children is a BIG part of Sigurd's game.) Ike, on the other hand, is either asexual or gay.

Also, Greil and ... uh, Byron (is that Sigurd's dad's name?) don't really have too much in common either. Byron's a noble with special blood. Greil, as far as we know, is just a super powerful and OP warrior. We can't even say for sure if he had noble blood because if he was appointed during Ashnard's reign then he could've just been some random ass strong peasant Ashnard took a fancy to.

Sigurd and Seliph and the Crusaders' battle with Loptous is also a bit more ... I wanna say personal, in a way? Having inherited the powers of the other dragon deities and having been tasked with divine weapons and shit? In Tellius, the ultimate deity in charge of that world isn't even a dragon. The only world where dragons and gods are not the same thing, in fact. Ike doesn't really have a personal connection to either Ashera or Yune, it's arguable that his sis is more connected to them than he is. Plus, the conflict with Ashera and Yune is more than just mere "decades" long. It's centuries.

[FailWood]

Character wise, a more accurate comparison to Sigurd is Chrom.

[MuteMousou]

Since Tellius is pretty evidently a re-imagining of Jugdral in a lot of ways, it's not entirely impossible that there may be similarities between the two intentionally.

[PostZordem]

(I have a feeling you might have made this topic because of my Ike topic in the Path of Radiance forum, though it's just a hunch)

I feel like you could use this kind of comparison to describe any two main characters in Fire Emblem. For instance, you could say: "Roy is just a lesser version of Eliwood", "Corrin isn't as great as Robin", or something along those lines. Very interesting choice to compare Ike and Sigurd in particular. I never thought those two would be compared. 

While I am only starting Ike's journey in Path of Radiance, I like his character so far in the chapters I've currently played and will probably end up being one of those people who enjoy Ike's character and his game. As for Sigurd, well... Genealogy of the Holy War never got officially localized to the West and I've never been big on emulation, so unless Nintendo decides to remake the game as an Echoes title just like Shadows of Valentia (and how it was a remake of Fire Emblem Gaiden), I probably won't be playing it myself. I respect your opinion regarding Ike and Sigurd. It's all down to a matter of preference and opinion really. 

21 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

9. Okay; you're just wrong here. Path of Radiance is indisputably the best Fire Emblem game.

@vanguard333 I like Path of Radiance too, but it's not "indisputably the best Fire Emblem game" (that honor currently goes to Fire Emblem: Three Houses). It's all down to each person's own opinion on the FE games. Just by looking at each Serenes Forest member's Favorite FE, that point is already clear enough. While some titles may pop up more than others, there is without a doubt a variety of opinions regarding the best Fire Emblem game, so not one FE title in particular is undoubtedly the best in the entire series.

Edited May 8, 2022 by CyberZord

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

You got a blue-haired pretty boy.

His father is a man of great standing with high proficiency in swords.

The father flees from the empire he served, and the boy inherits his sword prowess.

His sister is a mounted unit with swords and staves.

This boy has no good romantic pairings- no romantic choices at all, actually.

He inherits authority over a group of warriors due to his parentage.

The game he's in centers around a decades-long conflict involving a dark dragon deity sealed away in some terribly mundane object.

A light-haired girl with light magic bearing the powers of this chaos deity proves to be an important ally.

Aside from Linde being a brunette and Elice not having a pony, you're describing Marth.

2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

I've never once considered Ike and Sigurd to be similar character archetypes at all.

For one, Sigurd is a hopeless straight romantic who falls in love with a mystery woman at first sight and sires a child. (And having children is a BIG part of Sigurd's game.) Ike, on the other hand, is either asexual or gay.

Also, Greil and ... uh, Byron (is that Sigurd's dad's name?) don't really have too much in common either. Byron's a noble with special blood. Greil, as far as we know, is just a super powerful and OP warrior. We can't even say for sure if he had noble blood because if he was appointed during Ashnard's reign then he could've just been some random ass strong peasant Ashnard took a fancy to.

Sigurd and Seliph and the Crusaders' battle with Loptous is also a bit more ... I wanna say personal, in a way? Having inherited the powers of the other dragon deities and having been tasked with divine weapons and shit? In Tellius, the ultimate deity in charge of that world isn't even a dragon. The only world where dragons and gods are not the same thing, in fact. Ike doesn't really have a personal connection to either Ashera or Yune, it's arguable that his sis is more connected to them than he is. Plus, the conflict with Ashera and Yune is more than just mere "decades" long. It's centuries.

According to the timeline I just google, Greil left Dein the year before Ashnard rose to the throne, at the same time as all that plague stuff. So yeah, he was almost certainly a noble, and a pretty high one to get into the Four Riders.

2 hours ago, MuteMousou said:

Since Tellius is pretty evidently a re-imagining of Jugdral in a lot of ways, it's not entirely impossible that there may be similarities between the two intentionally.

How is Tellius a re-imagining of Jugdral? I can't see any similarities that aren't the standard generic trappings of the series and genre. There isn't even holy blood in Tellius, it's the one game where the most powerful weapons are just randomly found with no explanation. I guess Yune works a bit like Forseti, but even then the powerful ally that is from the same ancient society as the enemy is something Gotoh established. As did Shadow Dragon in the 'big central empire' Holy Archanea, that Grannvale and Begnion followed. Tellius, while it no doubt has them in its universe, also lacks any sort of dynastic conflict or even visible dynasties in its story which is crucial to Jugdral. Hell Tellius even lacks a dark cult which is the main enemy force, which is pretty common in all Fire Emblem games but is particularly important for Jugdral. Seriously I can't think of one thing from the plot or world of Jugdral that stands out that is in common with Tellius but also not shared by multiple settings in the series. Three Houses is far more of a re-imagining of Jugdral than Tellius is.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Jotari

[Florete]

8 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Also, the game he first appears in sucks and is much, much worse than it's unorthodox sequel with no real support conversations.

There is something very incorrect in this sentence...

Spoiler

It's its apostrophe. It shouldn't be there.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

My blue haired sword lord can beat up your blue haired sword lord.

Among 'Best Lord?' discussions, this one's pretty roundabout. Being real for a second, aren't we all just a worse Sigurd?

 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Among 'Best Lord?' discussions, this one's pretty roundabout. Being real for a second, aren't we all just a worse Sigurd?

Dang man, you don't have to get that deep with it. Now I feel inadequate. Bet I won't even die as well as Sigurd.

[FailWood]

8 hours ago, CyberZord said:

Just by looking at each Serenes Forest member's Favorite FE

Thanks for the reminder.  Got several playthroughs of Path of Radiance under my belt since last year, and can say it overtook my previous favorite.

[vanguard333]

10 hours ago, CyberZord said:

I like Path of Radiance too, but it's not "indisputably the best Fire Emblem game" (that honor currently goes to Fire Emblem: Three Houses). It's all down to each person's own opinion on the FE games. Just by looking at each Serenes Forest member's Favorite FE, that point is already clear enough. While some titles may pop up more than others, there is without a doubt a variety of opinions regarding the best Fire Emblem game, so not one FE title in particular is undoubtedly the best in the entire series. But hey, if you can describe why Path of Radiance is truly the best FE game (and why AnonymousSpeed is allegedly wrong), than I'm willing to keep an open mind and listen to your argument.

I wasn't really being serious when I said "indisputably". I agree that each person's favourite FE game all comes down to personal preference.

[Benice]

Ike is naturally just a worse Sigurd, because Sigurd is a prepromote with horse and good stats, as well as early access to the Silver Sword; Ike starts out much slower than that and never gets a horse.

[Shrimpica]

Sigurd get's bbq'd and becomes tasty, and Ike doesn't.

Tasty is better than non-tasty

That's the only way this title would make sense 😛

[PostZordem]

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I wasn't really being serious when I said "indisputably". I agree that each person's favourite FE game all comes down to personal preference.

@vanguard333 Ah, well in that case you can disregard that last sentence in my original reply. I've edited it out now since we've come to a consensus. Glad we could come to an agreement.

6 hours ago, FailWood said:

Thanks for the reminder.  Got several playthroughs of Path of Radiance under my belt since last year, and can say it overtook my previous favorite.

@FailWood No way, did I actually change your favorite FE based on what I said in my reply (albeit indirectly)? What about Path of Radiance made you make it your new favorite over your previous fave?

[Interdimensional Observer]

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

How is Tellius a re-imagining of Jugdral?

Really?

• Elincia having green hair and being a staff-using pegasus knight isn't a nod to Jugdral? 
• Nor Mist being a sword valkyrie?
• Or Geoffrey being a Brave Lance blue-haired cavalier?
• Actually, unpromoted cavalry in general using only one weapon type, not the classic sword & lance.
• Post-attacking Canto.
  • PoR had the Knight Ring brought back.
• The return of the Str-Mag split.
• Return of the Anima magic trinity.
  • Like Lewyn-Azelle-Tailtiu, Soren-Tormod-Ilyana have green-red-lavender hair and are wind-fire-thunder mages respectively.
  • Micaiah is light magic using girl with a hair color resembling Deidre, Julia, and also Sara. The first of the two I named are pretty important in Jugdral.
• Thieves can steal weapons.
• Skills
• For a starting group, the Greil Mercenaries are a more tight-knit earthy starting group, not quite like that of the Fiana Freeblades, but its unusually close to it.
• Eyvel and Dagdar resemble Greil and Titania in certain aspects.
• Chapters 5-8 of PoR have a slight narrative resemblance to 4-7 Thracia an escape to safety with an element of tragedy.
• Tibarn and Naesala have a Quan-Travant relationship. The stupid honorable heroic king and the cunning distrusted mercenary king.
• Reyson can refresh four units, like FE4 Dancers.
• The best developed part of the world of Judgral was the Thracian Peninsula, Crimea and Daein are hero plains and evil mountains. (This was also true of Lycia-Bern, but contextually, there are too many other Jugdral-Tellius coincidences.)
• Begnion is a hegemonic superpower on its continent, the one other time we saw this in FE prior was Grannvale. For all their pretensions, Grado and Bern found themselves rather easily checked by Frelia and Etruria (once the latter got its act together).

Did I miss anything?

I wouldn't use the word "re-imagining", but it's akin to Elibe with Archanea and Magvel with Valentia. Tellius chose Jugdral as its spiritual predecessor. Narratively, they're much different, but nonetheless, there are one too many shared trappings to deny their connection. Like & dislike them as one wills however.

[FailWood]

7 minutes ago, CyberZord said:

What about Path of Radiance made you make it your new favorite over your previous fave?

1: The Prologue to Chapter 9.

I like how the game focuses on the Greil Mercenaries both in terms of story and gameplay (The only non Greil Mercs you play as in this timespan are Mia, Illyana, and Marcia), so you have plenty of time to decide who you want to stick around from that group.  I also like the interactions between the Mercs.

2: The Base.

It's the perfect amount of downtime between chapters, letting you have base conversations with your allies and prepare for the next chapter, without being overbearing or unlimited like in games that after.

3: Ike

I like how straight forward and honest his character is.  Sure, the timing isn't always appropriate, and his personality could be viewed as boring to others, but I think he hits that sweet spot.  Also helps that he can have some good one liners too.  I also like him as a unit.  He's neither super overpowered nor lacking in something like other main characters in the series.  He fits right in, no matter who fights beside him.

...Those are just some things I like about the game.  I'm glad I was able to get it.

[vanguard333]

48 minutes ago, CyberZord said:

@vanguard333 Ah, well in that case you can disregard that last sentence in my original reply. I've edited it out now since we've come to a consensus. Glad we could come to an agreement.

Okay. Glad we could come to an agreement as well.

By the way, what did you think of the other points/arguments that I raised?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Really?

• Elincia having green hair and being a staff-using pegasus knight isn't a nod to Jugdral? 
• Nor Mist being a sword valkyrie?
• Or Geoffrey being a Brave Lance blue-haired cavalier?
• Actually, unpromoted cavalry in general using only one weapon type, not the classic sword & lance.
• Post-attacking Canto.
  • PoR had the Knight Ring brought back.
• The return of the Str-Mag split.
• Return of the Anima magic trinity.
  • Like Lewyn-Azelle-Tailtiu, Soren-Tormod-Ilyana have green-red-lavender hair and are wind-fire-thunder mages respectively.
  • Micaiah is light magic using girl with a hair color resembling Deidre, Julia, and also Sara. The first of the two I named are pretty important in Jugdral.
• Thieves can steal weapons.
• Skills
• For a starting group, the Greil Mercenaries are a more tight-knit earthy starting group, not quite like that of the Fiana Freeblades, but its unusually close to it.
• Eyvel and Dagdar resemble Greil and Titania in certain aspects.
• Chapters 5-8 of PoR have a slight narrative resemblance to 4-7 Thracia an escape to safety with an element of tragedy.
• Tibarn and Naesala have a Quan-Travant relationship. The stupid honorable heroic king and the cunning distrusted mercenary king.
• Reyson can refresh four units, like FE4 Dancers.
• The best developed part of the world of Judgral was the Thracian Peninsula, Crimea and Daein are hero plains and evil mountains. (This was also true of Lycia-Bern, but contextually, there are too many other Jugdral-Tellius coincidences.)
• Begnion is a hegemonic superpower on its continent, the one other time we saw this in FE prior was Grannvale. For all their pretensions, Grado and Bern found themselves rather easily checked by Frelia and Etruria (once the latter got its act together).

Did I miss anything?

I wouldn't use the word "re-imagining", but it's akin to Elibe with Archanea and Magvel with Valentia. Tellius chose Jugdral as its spiritual predecessor. Narratively, they're much different, but nonetheless, there are one too many shared trappings to deny their connection. Like & dislike them as one wills however.

Aside from some gameplay call backs (which was more returning to form after the GBA decided to go more simplistic with it's combat system), those are all pretty stretched. Might as well say the lord being an infantry unit is a call back to Shadow Dragon, or the lord having a 1-2 range legendary weapon obtained in the last three maps is a call back to Binding Blade.  I already brought up how Holy Archanea was actually the first hegemonic super power (and shares the distinction of it being an ally in the first game an enemy in the second, hell Tellius shares with Archanea being the only setting in the series to actually get a direct sequel). Elincia's hair? You might as well say the fact that she's a pegasus unit is a call back to Shiida. Hell they literally brought back the character Aimee from Archanea. Tellius also has multiple dragon tribes while Jugdral lacks common dragons entirely (except wyvrens, of course). These are superficial things. The core elements of Jugdral that make Jugdral Jugdral weren't played to with Path of Radiance. Unlike in Three Houses where they were very much played to.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Jotari