Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[NekoRex]

Other then that I more or less stand null on BBM's claim and I think bearclaw is/was overreacting, but I don't really see that as a reason to vote him.

[Da Bear]

Objection, you haven't changed your vote at all yet? Do you think I'm the scummiest, if so why didn't you reason that out in your one content post? Do you just not have scumreads rn?

I'll answer SB tonight when I have my computer to better read all that's been said.

[Paperblade]

I feel like SB is voteparking Bearclaw

[Refa]

What does that mean?

[Sunwoo]

Because BBM hadn't claimed character, so it wasn't "asking what he claimed" but rather "asking what character he was" which /is scummy rolefishing/.

Not really ... and he did claim his character, although a bit indirectly. Also ... Refa specifically asked "what character did you claim" in his post. Explain to me how this is scummy rolefishing. Because this game is "Choose Your Own Character" I can understand why we may not want to claim characters or how it could give potential clues for people's roles ... but BBM had already claimed his role. I do not see what the problem is here. Like Rein said ... you seem to be blowing this out of proportion.

By Refa's slippery logic I mean the implication that you can not doubt someone and not think that they are scum at the same time, presented in a way that looks to my like grasping to keep an invalid point alive. It doesn't look like your read my complete opinion of Rocker. I thought the presentation of bear's listpost was more telling to me about his alignment than its content, so that's what I mentioned, though I also meant to delete that because sharing townreads 24 hours in is dumb. I have also mentioned other people not named Refa and have a vote down so I don't know what you're asking me to do.

... While the presentation of bearclaw's list post is also telling (you do not need to keep telling people to post more), analyzing the post for the actual content will also help you ... perhaps a lot more than just the presentation.

We are also aware that you posted about other players, but I just do not understand how Refa is still just that much worse than everyone else. I mean ... I can understand finding someone suspicious over a minor thing and becoming more suspicious of them for bigger things ... but I cannot help but feel that you are looking for ways to make Refa look worse than he actually is. ... That initial vote reason and is bothering me just that much.

Also ... looking at the content of bearclaw's post, I can't say I find it very satisfactory. The "POST MOARs" are not only unhelpful but distracting. I feel that he does not seem to give very ... decisive reads on the few people whom he can comment on. I understand we are only about two days into D1 ... but he seems to word statements in ways that would allow him to change his mind. His strongest reads are a town read and the person he is voting. Also, I would like some explanation as to why "Strege's case on Refa is really bad, but not scummy bad".

Eh, I got the impression he was saying BBM's role was too good for town, but he believed that BBM was scum and still had the same role?

Yeah ... I guess that does make sense. The way he initially worded it probably did not sound very clear to me.

the incredible amount of ellipsis are making me laugh~ Srsly though, what's your position on BBM?

At this time, I am not reading BBM as scum. I also do not doubt his role because of how provable it is.

And now ... I must leave. I will return later.

[Zkirsche]

What does that mean?

It means he's refusing to switch votes for no good reason.

I too think that, I really don't see bear as a good vote for reasons I've already discussed.

@SB: The reason I criticised you for lurking hard is because you didn't really do much early on except for opposing the idea of a town leader and push on bear. Even now you're still pushing and everything else you've mentioned seems kinda weak, and FYPOV is clearly weaker than the bear vote. What do you make of what other people have said wrt bear?

[Paperblade]

I want people to comment on my Boron read.

[Zkirsche]

Your Boron read is based simply off a misrep which I don't think really does that much and could easily just be her misinterpreting something. Not really convincing me that she's scum, and I'm not really seeing much wrong with her posts with actual content in them either. Nothing glaring at least.

What do you make of her recent posts?

[Paperblade]

It's not a misrep. She said something and when I pushed her out for saying false things, she started to talk about other reasons he was suspicious. Then she pushed, Strege, another easy wagon.

[Paperblade]

I don't know why the word "out" was in there

[Paperblade]

NNR might be lurkscum

[Prims]

scorri has been prodded.

Other people probably need prods too, whatever. If you're reading this, post.

[Sunwoo]

Curse you, posting system!

It's not a misrep. She said something and when I pushed her out for saying false things, she started to talk about other reasons he was suspicious. Then she pushed, Strege, another easy wagon.

Paperblade ... why is Strege an "easy wagon"? This bothers me ... you are saying he is "easy" while not explaining why ... and if he is an "easy wagon" then what of the other people besides me who are pushing him? Also ... I already explained the so-called "false things" you are accusing me of. Those "other reasons" I gave for him being suspicious are not any less valid because they came after you pushed me. (Also ... my original vote on bearclaw came at a period I have already stated to be when I was in a hurry.)

Your comments about Neko and SB also bother me. What makes NekoRex lurkscum as opposed to another ... such as scorri or Grassbridger or Objection? And if you think SB is voteparking bearclaw ... do you find him scummy over it? Your vote on Elieson also feels weaker than your case on me.

##Unvote

##Vote: Paperblade

The Elieson vote does not feel very strong ... and it appears that even now your suspicions are more on me than on him. I would also like an explanation as to what makes NekoRex lurkscum but not others and if you think SB is scum(my). Because right now it looks as if you are making passing comments about how certain players are doing certain scummy things ... but not actually committing to the observation and explaining why or giving a read on that player.

[BBM]

Good, just checking. I was actually wondering why you didn't ask for any potential confirmation roles to check you over during N0, so that way you wouldn't be busting everyone's balls during D1 with your random "I wanna lead the town kguysthx" thing. You had the capability to make your RoleClaim+Town Leader request meaningful, and apparently didn't. I'm trying to fathom the logic in this

It seems bad to me when you had the ability to request safety confirmation, and therefore, future protection, and instead, just moved forward acting like we'd all follow along.

Also I just got home and am actually not on my phone. TO THE REREAD AND ISOS!

Well you're opening yourself up to all of that just the same simply by trying to run claimtomes and town leaderisms. Now it's just as likely as N0 for a theoretical Tailor or Kidnapper or whatever to nab you, only now the circumstances are worse because you can be killed tonight, whereas last night that was one less negative scenario that could hit you. Rolespec prevented you from trying to cement yourself as town leader on a night where you were immune from death, but now you're a potential victim to both roles and a factional kill.

And then you jump to rolespec for a situation of someone else potentially doing what you did.

I dunno, I just don't like it. You're making it hard to have faith in this holy plan of yours.

@SB- These are two of Elie's posts asking about why I didn't post N0. I do in fact think that this is a bit of a push by Elie on me, especially those bolded bits. They go beyond commenting on the faulty execution of my plan and edge into finding me suspicious for it. So I don't think that Grass is misrepping or twisting Elie's words by implying Elie is, at the least, wary of me. Also, when he lists me under some of his reads later in his quote dump, he has me as "forced neutral" which doesn't really make sense to me. People are treating the bid for town leader as null, maybe, but that doesn't mean that they can't scumread me or townread me for other reasons.

[Zkirsche]

It's not a misrep. She said something and when I pushed her out for saying false things, she started to talk about other reasons he was suspicious. Then she pushed, Strege, another easy wagon.

I can't really recall you mentioning any of the things you put here before now. The misrep thing is in relation to this:

I understand that, Boron, hence why I'm saying you're trying to take one sentence and blow it up like that's his entire reason for voting BBM.

Which is a summary of the only reason you had given to vote Boron.

I can't say that what you said is untrue, but I'm not really interpreting it the same way and I'm much more interested in other people.

[Zkirsche]

That double ninja.

do you find him scummy over it?

No he thinks he's more likely town, clearly. I don't really see why he needs to attach "I find this scummy" to everything that is obviously bad.

Isn't it PB's meta to go around making passing comments like this?

[BBM]

Well the difference between NNR and j00/Scorri/Rocker/other lurkers I may be forgetting is that the latter haven't posted for 24 hours at least, while the former had two posts today and said nothing of worth in either of them. I can see why Paper might think the former is lurkscum over the latter group.

I don't agree with Paperblade's case on Boron and I think it's incorrect but I don't find him scummy for it. The initial reason for his vote there was okay but I think Boron has justified herself well enough after that.

[Paperblade]

I changed my vote because people weren't commenting, but I decided that I wanted people to actually comment on it instead of simply ignoring other cases like they normally do. My vote's ultimately not that important though

Strege is an easy wagon because he is new and is getting panicky and aggressive over something that's inconsequential (Refa asking for BBM's character). It's a lazy vote and easy to fluff up (Shinori has almost no content so I am waiting for him to post more stuff, and I have my vote for the other guy on the Strege wagon).

[Sunwoo]

No he thinks he's more likely town, clearly. I don't really see why he needs to attach "I find this scummy" to everything that is obviously bad.

The point was that he had not posted anything about SB before that comment about bearclaw ... so while I can see that he does not like the votepark does he actually think SB is scum?

Isn't it PB's meta to go around making passing comments like this?

Perhaps it may ... but it is not something I particularly notice. (I am not very familiar with Paper's meta.)

[Sunwoo]

I changed my vote because people weren't commenting, but I decided that I wanted people to actually comment on it instead of simply ignoring other cases like they normally do. My vote's ultimately not that important though

To be fair ... it did not seem to me like you were seriously pushing a case on me. After your response to my initial response to your vote on me ... you sort of stopped talking about me until asking people to comment on your case ...

Strege is an easy wagon because he is new and is getting panicky and aggressive over something that's inconsequential (Refa asking for BBM's character). It's a lazy vote and easy to fluff up (Shinori has almost no content so I am waiting for him to post more stuff, and I have my vote for the other guy on the Strege wagon).

Point taken about Elieson being on the Strege wagon ... but new people can be scum as well. (Also ... Strege is not even that new anymore ...) Regardless ... you'll have to forgive me if I find Strege's reaction and continuing reaction to Refa's comment scummy.

[Paperblade]

I'm trying something a little different this game, btw. I believe I have a tendency to lose games because I am not direct enough with people and don't elaborate enough, and don't post things that I probably should (eg should have had Boron and Manix lynched in Spellcard). I don't think I've ever been endgamed as town and I'm pretty good at not getting lynched (I've only been mislynched once, and not on this site), so usually I have a tendency to stay quiet because I'm not sure of my reads and try to not die then win. It's pretty selfish but eh

It will probably seem more disjointed than usual because it's more stream of consciousness but w/e

As long as I can remember with Proto he has not been that great at the behavioral analysis stuff and just sort of posts stuff, sometimes later contradicting himself (I recall a fairly long period of time where I tried to lynch him like D1 of every game because of this) and I don't think anything's changed.

wrt SB: I was responding to his most recent post where he just posted more stuff to reinforce his bear vote. I feel like he's trying to ignore the rest of the game.

I want people to explain why they feel Boron justified herself

Bearclaw made a long post, which imo was panicky, but nowhere in it did he include the term "pressure." This vote was to me purely a new player being scared of the potential of BBM being scum wanting a massclaim and overreacting. I made a post saying this was dumb, and he followed up.

Boron then voted Bearclaw calling his vote a "pressure vote" even though he already made a fairly long post NOWHERE IN WHICH HE SAID IT WAS A PRESSURE VOTE.

He responded and goes "No that's only part of it I have other reasons," and she unvoted and voted him again (why?) and told him to elaborate. Anyway, Bear responds saying that he already did and she must have missed it. This strikes me as odd, as his vote was placed in a post where he had plenty of reasons. This is what bothers me about her case.

Boron's response to my vote was to say "But he actually did say it was a pressure vote!" and suggest it gives him an easy way off BBM's wagon, still ignoring bear's complaints wrt BBM.

Boron then says that it was not her intent to make it sound like that was bear's only reason, but how is that so? You ignored his post giving his reasons for suspecting BBM and even asked him for them again, which he responded to by just pointing you to his previous post (which you've ignored, to my knowledge), and only started commenting on them when I called you out. In fact, your post claims you didn't check his ISO until I started pushing you. How can you claim someone is not doing something when you're not actually reading their posts?

If you guys were following along you would have seen these events in order. But luckily you still can, thanks to the power of reading the damn thread!

##Unvote, ##Vote Boron

[Sunwoo]

Boron then voted Bearclaw calling his vote a "pressure vote" even though he already made a fairly long post NOWHERE IN WHICH HE SAID IT WAS A PRESSURE VOTE.

... Did you ignore the post where I explained why I called it a pressure vote? No, you couldn't have, you responded to it directly. Also ... if you look at my actual vote post ... I also took issue with how long it took him to actually vote BBM despite saying all these things about him. ... And I explained the "pressure vote" remark already as well.

He responded and goes "No that's only part of it I have other reasons," and she unvoted and voted him again (why?) and told him to elaborate. Anyway, Bear responds saying that he already did and she must have missed it. This strikes me as odd, as his vote was placed in a post where he had plenty of reasons. This is what bothers me about her case.

I voted him again because I forgot to unvote the first time. As for me telling him to elaborate ... I will admit right here and now that I did forget that he made a post outlining why he voted BBM. I have no excuses other than I was literally rushing to get out of my apartment and his post with the reasons were on the previous page and so I forgot about it at that time. And I do not care if you do not believe me on this.

Boron's response to my vote was to say "But he actually did say it was a pressure vote!" and suggest it gives him an easy way off BBM's wagon, still ignoring bear's complaints wrt BBM.

... I did address this somewhat. Regardless of bearclaw's complaints about BBM ... what had bothered me the most about his case was that he still had to include the "pressure vote" reason in there. I would not have taken so much issue with him had he just said that he was suspicious of BBM because of reasons and voted him. I felt that by giving a second reason saying that he "wanted some reads from a potential leader (so a pressure vote I guess)" was in a way weakening his own case and giving a window to drop the suspicions.

Boron then says that it was not her intent to make it sound like that was bear's only reason, but how is that so? You ignored his post giving his reasons for suspecting BBM and even asked him for them again, which he responded to by just pointing you to his previous post (which you've ignored, to my knowledge), and only started commenting on them when I called you out. In fact, your post claims you didn't check his ISO until I started pushing you. How can you claim someone is not doing something when you're not actually reading their posts?

Already explained. As for the ISO ... I happened to read the entire thread and everything I missed in one sitting? It is not as if I voted bearclaw and then only bothered to actually read his posts in after you called me out. I did an initial read, noted and voted on what I did not like from my initial read of the thread ... and when I actually had time sat down and looked at ISOs for more depth. You are just taking things out of context here.

[Paperblade]

The pressure vote was an afterthought when I called him dumb, which is something you are continuing to ignore. I have never denied that he said it was partly a pressure vote but you have continued to act like that was his primary reason when it was not present at all in his initial post.

[Sunwoo]

The pressure vote was an afterthought when I called him dumb, which is something you are continuing to ignore. I have never denied that he said it was partly a pressure vote but you have continued to act like that was his primary reason when it was not present at all in his initial post.

... Did you ignore the part where I said it still bothered me just that much? Because I have never actually stated what I thought about his BBM read ... I do not have a problem with bearclaw's actual case on BBM ... even if I do not agree with it. I can see the reasoning. But what I did vote him for just bothered me that much. And right now ... if I have to fault him on anything ... it would be that list post which did not have much in the way of definite reads.

[Paperblade]

In other news, rereading SB's iso irks me. I feel like he is teetering back and forth between "Yeah sure I support a massclaim BUT this this and this". Too much fencesitting. You say things like

imo we don't claim to BBM unless someone can clear him or something

which suggests you're okay with claiming to BBM if he can be cleared (which is questionable because the person clearing him would not be known)

Prims probably made the setup non breakable through massclaiming like this. If we try to play the rolegame then we'll probably be punished for it.

but then says this 50 minutes later

The only reason I would object is that when a lynch is certain, SF has a habit of doing fuck all for the rest of the day, which would kind of screw us if BBM dies.

and then later says this

I can't tell whether or not SB is supporting a massclaim, which is odd to me.

Probably won't respond to Boron unless people insist on it since this might get emotionally charged and that would be bad