School of Hard NOCs - Night 6 ends on Mar. 15 at 9:00 PM HST

[Haze]

I'll make an actual post later, but I need to go to sleep and have to get this out of my system before I do:

Haze: The most noticeable thing I've seen of him is when he votes for Kaoz due to a strong grudge and then he changes to vote against me. Maybe trying to stop what I picked up on? Probably not, but still...

[charlie_]

Haze:

I hope you realise how much of a silly question this is.

He's awol for the first 2 days of discussion and then pops in to sheep the most popular wagon (putting it at l-1 I might add,) and then tries to make cases out of joke votes. I think he might be lurkscum deliberately trying to coast by unnoticed. So I want to squeeze him a bit.

We've seen newbies be inactive and make bad moves as town and as scum before now.

Seems to me like you're playing devil's advocate for Frosty when there's no need to do so.

Seems to me like you're just coasting on an easy vote without really trying to distinguish between bad town!newbie and scum!newbie.

I do like that you assume I'm "not looking into anyone else" simply because I'm not posting pretty little lists of how I feel about each member in the game constantly. If I feel something needs to be said, I'll say it.

Also, posting and explaining town reads outside of lylo/mylo helps the mafia more than the town. Would you prefer I started posting things like "leaning town on Kaoz," or "Prims is obviously town?" Because that just reads like I'm writing a hit list for the mafia to me.

Not wanting to post townreads is a concept I disagree with, but ok. What

I'm not dismissing it, I'm steering clear of it unless someone has a better reason than meta.

There are 4 reasons given for voting Paper. One is meta. One is lack of 'meaningful content' which I just disagree with in general.

Why do you disagree with it? Paper's contributions have been slim at best, he has a one line vote on me, which came a post after he sort of defended me so ???

The other 2 are BBM's reasons. The first of which is his shitty vote onto you which made no sense. The second is his U-turning on the Rajam wagon, which he made pretty clear was because the size was making him uncomfortable (oh my.)

How does Paper's vote being bad make no sense for him to be scum? That doesn't make any sense. I'll concede on that, but you're also ignoring my case on him so yeah.

Now, maybe this is just me, but I don't see why scum!anybody would jump off of a wagon that big just to make that vote.

Or are you trying to imply that Paper and Rajam are scumbuddies and he wanted off of that bus as quickly as possible?

Because they thought the wagon as Not That Good and didn't want to be associated with it when they flipped? Them being scumbuddies is also possible, it's pretty easy to justify. Paper also only had like, one line on Rajam in total and it came after his vote was already down on him from RVS, so it's easy to justify a switch.

Prims:

I'm down with a wagon on FFM. If he's town the least he could have done would've been to reply to me proper. Also, on the contrary, SB, why is FFM newbtown and not newbscum? It's been explained why his behavior is scummy and I don't see any justification for interpreting it as town beyond "he's a newbie so he can get away with everything".

I can see him making those moves as town though. After people told him to do more he's tried to go and develop reads and even if they haven't really been strong ones and there are a lot of nulls, that's what I would be expecting from a new player at this point. It's also clear that he hasn't been coached at all so far.

Shinori:

1: SB came back and never commented on that again; yes he left after he made the question but when he came back he acted as if the question didn't even matter by not bringing it up again. If it didn't matter that much to him then why did he ask it in the first place?

I was trying to develop early reads from the questioning? It didn't really provide me with anything and by the time I got back the game was way past that point so there was no need to push it further.

Radiant Dragon:

I entertained the notion that Rajam was Town for that post to see what logically progressed from that possibility. Actually, I lean more towards the scum side of the spectrum considering him. He continues to dodge all of the questions aimed at him and I can't think of a good reason why he would do this except to try and avoid attention. His aggressive pushing on many of the other players is not a bad thing in a vacuum but side-by-side with his refusal to answer to anyone only increases the image I have of him trying to avoid having to give us anything more to work with regarding him.

If you're leaning towards the idea that Rajam is scum, then why is all of your analysis based around an assumption that you feel is false? This doesn't make any sense to me at all.

The bolded sentence tries to make my post sound worse than it really is (this seems to be a tread with your posts about me, and I don't particularly like it). I mentioned that I had suspicions about two players, JB and Poly, and that I felt Raymond was Town. As for my null reads, two of them are null for reasons out of my control (Kaoz's vote was an RVS vote, Fire Flower has no idea what he's doing). They were listed for completionist's sake. So that really just makes two players that I could have a read on but don't (Haze and BBM).

"Please stop attacking me, I don't like it". I'm attacking you, of course I'm not going to try and paint you in a positive light. It's bad because you have so much content that just seems like it's there for padding's sake to appear like you're contributing more than you are. You immediately said "oh man my Raymond read is probably bad because I suck" right after which doesn't really help your case.

Unless you're saying that I should be trying to make RVS votes and ignorance into scum-tells. Your vote against me was bad (the intent of my post was very clear) and you complain that people need to have more reads while barely giving any reads of your own! You want a read? I think you could be scum. I'm not voting for you yet because I want to see more from JB first. He needs to say more with the little time he has available to him.

Neat. Why am I scum again? You just seem to arrive to the conclusion that I'm scum because my attack on you is bad, except it isn't.

Fire Flower's vote is also pretty bad. His vote is based on Paper's inactivity (a null tell) and saying Paper gave no reason for disliking the Rajam wagon, when Paper clearly said he was uncomfortable with the wagon due to the speed and magnitude at which it grew.

Didn't you say that this was a null read earlier? How did this change?

##Unvote

##Vote: Radiant Dragon

Will switch back to Paperblade for phase end if I need to, but I'm going after RD for now. Don't really like Haze either.

[charlie_]

probably should've stuck that in a spoiler, oops

[Prims]

defending FFM because "I can see him making those moves as town" is dumb and inconclusive lol. Is he town?

[Jaybee]

No, you don't just "become uncomfortable" with a wagon you started (Paper was the first person to vote Rajam) simply because it gets big. If you're actually confident in the read, then a bunch of other people also voting him should be a good thing, not a bad thing. And like Prims said, if Paper stopped liking it because he didn't like the manner in which other people were jumping on, then he should have made an attempt to actually look at which votes he didn't like, rather than pursuing something that wasn't connected to the Rajam wagon at all. And although I do think Rajam is scum, I'm not going to assume that while I look into Paperblade. If Rajam is town, maybe Paper just wanted to disassociate himself with that wagon before it got lynched, or anticipated others unvoting because of the speed of the wagon and wanted to be the first to do it. And yeah, if Rajam is scum, then it could easily be an early bus from Paper that he didn't want to have build into a D1 scum lynch. Paperblade busses his buddies all the time as scum.

1. too much meta stop pls

2. i know this has been explained quite a few times but swapping out your vote for such a reason is perfectly legitimate, especially given that wagon started at like mid D1 or something?

I didn't realize this game would be such a time investment. Ugh. So much reading.

@ Haze: The above reason is pretty much the reason why I haven't been active. Didn't really know what I was getting into, lol. Probably against your best interests to vote for me though.

Anyway, I'm getting suspicious of Paperblade. Not posting very often (maybe using being busy as an excuse?) and disliking the Rajam sheeping without any reasoning strike me as scummy. Also other players seem to know his play-style so may as well listen to what they have to say.

Rajam just strikes me as someone trying too hard now. If he wanted to draw suspicion anyway from himself you would think he would tone it down.

##Unvote

##Vote: Paperblade

why so defensive when you have like 1 or 2 votes on you?

also sheep sheep baa etc

From what I can see/tell atm:

- Dragonfang13:

Somethin' weird about his posting is pulling a gut feeling atm. Not sure if it's just the voicing for others, or more than that. Feeling scummy vibes from him currently.

- Shatter:

Eh, that post/vote on Rajam seemed a bit easy, but perhaps it feels worse than it could/should due to the sparse posting with it (which we're to expect, given his last post?). Null, but leaning a bit dirty for now.

- Prims:

....What'sthismadness? I see no overly cynical posting style from Prims, le gasp! Must be scuuuuuuuuuuuuum! D:

(Realtalk: Fairly solid gameplay from what I've seen so far... but that's partially worrying me slightly. Like Prims seems more... careful and almost eloquent with his posting. Wary vibes currently, but keeping at null.)

-SB:

The wagon/case against him coasting early on, gauging by his posts/content overall- seems to have its own small merit. He also doesn't seem as active/pushing for thread progression as I'd expect from town!SB, so that's leaving a rather dubious gut feeling on him. Until more content/posts come about, I'd drop him in the 'slightly dirty' box for now.

- RD:

Though I understand the concept of "there's probably some scum lurking on Rajam's wagon" (given the size of the game and how many votes were on it), post #148 just felt...weird? I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to say 'unnecessary', but it felt more like tossing dust into the air and trying to look productive when not much was really being said? Post #184 felt much more sound/solid compared to the previous post, but the sheer contrast/gap between the two is what bugs me slightly. Null, but has some dust bunnies gathering on the side.

- Fire Flower/FFM:

Seems pretty detached in his responses, and all in all, not much to be seen despite what's been posted so far, regarding reads. Seems to be playing the game without actually participating in it much- scum lurker vibes? Kicking him into "Scummy until proven clean" box.

- BBM:

This seems odd, since I don't recall BBM ever having an issue with a vote sitting on someone, unless it pertained to a wagon closed to being hammered? Seems a bit self-conscious/careful in removing the vote, given that it was technically his first vote/post anyways? Other than that though, I'm not sure how I feel about BBM's posting/content so far. Null for now. ;/

- Kaoz:

It seems unlike Kaoz to miss the Miller aspect of his role PM (gauging by the notion of him being a much more experienced player), but aside from that, nothing questionable to be seen in his posts atm. Null.

((I feel like I missed some people, but argh. Head hurts. Will get back to the reads/whoever I might've missed later.))

So, amongst those listed above:

FFM > RD = Dragonfang13 = SB = Shatter > Everyone else.

##Unvote (I think the vote was on Rajam earlier from before the sub?)

##Vote: FFM

is being null on like everybody a thing

frosty #195 is basically saying nothing and emphasising all the things that don't matter

##Unvote

##Vote Frosty

too defensive, p much nothing original, blowing up random points like haze rvs and yeah

reading rd either now or never depends on how sleepy i am

[Jaybee]

holy fuk i really don't like rd's posts

#1 and #2 say nothing

#3 super safe

#4 nothing

#5 ehhh other people have already said why parts of this were weird

first part of #6 feels like omgus

#7 is saying a whole lot of nothing

[Jaybee]

also i suppose i won't be getting modkilled for this

clarified with mom about night talking, she said it's not allowed but she kinda forgot to announce it i guess

though the rules have already been updated lol

[Da Bear]

Am I the only who's noticed that Eury is faulting me for a lack of reads but not the other people with some experience who lack reads? What about Paper or Kaoz? Why single me out on that?

FFM is so newb it hurts. I'll try to determine if it's newb!town or scum soon I guess (not really liking the current cases on her enough to consider her a consolidation target).

Randa is giving me a huge newb!town vibe, I could probably write it out but explaining a townread isn't going to help anything.

Still bugged by BBM but he's looking better since my vote. Rajam basically disappeared and Starting to feel weird about RD (more on this after school).

##Unvote

##Vote: Rajam

[Da Bear]

oh yeah, I'm voting Rajam because he basically slowed down a ton once votes started piling on and has now disappeared with the pressure gone, seems like he's dodging attention imo.

[Da Bear]

also because of those vibes I was getting earlier (phone keeps on posting before I'm ready I should be good now).

[Scarlet]

JB, why do you keep ignoring my questions directed at you?

[BBM]

wtf JB the only meta in that paragraph is the very last line. Everything else is just based on what scum in general do- they try not to associate themselves with wagons if they don't have to.

@Prims- The point isn't that FFM is town because badnewbtown also do the same stuff- it's that he's not necessarily scum, because everything anyone's said about why he might be scum falls just as much into the former as the latter.

@Shinori- "At the time he was posting everybody else had reads". wtf no, he was posting in RVS and the only important thing that had happened was Rajam voting Randa for lurking and then berating Bearclaw for answering questions he made to other people.

Paper > Rajam. Not interested in lynching anybody else except maybe JB; still haven't reread him. I'll do that after I come back in the night. Still haven't seen a good vote on FFM, so I don't support the wagon on him at all.

[BBM]

Would also support FLASHTURBOWAGON on Shinori. The only two posts in which he talks about anybody other than SB are #77 and #127, but in the first of those, he basically waffles on everybody in it except SB. He also sheeps Prims on that SB vote but then in #127 he says he has a gut suspicion on Prims. Why are you sheeping somebody you have a gut suspicion on? Then his second post, his JB suspicion is also saying what SB said. Again, sheeping a suspicion (and his top suspicion at that).

And, as I've been pointing out, his SB vote is rife with inconsistencies in its timeline.

[charlie_]

defending FFM because "I can see him making those moves as town" is dumb and inconclusive lol. Is he town?

No idea, but it means that I'm not happy enough to wagon him for play that in my mind is totally null.

I could also support JB's lynch, forgot about that. Oops. His last post is meh, he dismisses the Paper case on "too much meta" but there was like, one line of it and says that Paper getting off a wagon he dislikes isn't scummy, but doesn't look into the fact that Paper hasn't actually tried to look for scum on the wagon he stated disapproval of after doing that. How is that townie? I also don't get how saying "you shouldn't vote for me" is defensive when that's the aim of both town and scum? And misinterpreting early posts is kind of to be expected for a new player.

BBM: thoughts on RD?

RD>Paperblade>JB atm.

[Kaoz]

^^How is that an inconsistency? He may not have gut read Prims as scum when sheeping him. Not to mention you can agree with someone on select points even if you find them scummy overall. Blowing things out of proportion in my opinion, would not turbo. I wish Shinori would actually read pages 8-11 though.

Raymond, JB won't be back to answer before the day ends, content post please.

@Eurykins

I made the first post before even looking at my role pm (yes, I clicked away the pop-up without reading it), i.e. I didn't know I was Miller at that point.

@SB

Why are you applying context when talking about the FF votes, but disregard it in Paperblade's case? Why are those posts from scum!Paper rather than from someone who just skims the thread and doesn't reread?

Also where's the scum intent in RD's posts? I'm pretty sure the FF read you pointed out was him reading FF as null based on the Rajam vote, but what he called bad was the Paperblade vote, i.e. two separate instances.

@Randa

If your Prims vote was a reaction test, who do you actually want to lynch now?

- Prims is making me feel slightly awkward despite his posts feeling pretty pro-town, but that might just be because I'm just generally terrible at reading him.

Could you try to point out something specific that makes you feel awkward about him? Btw Prims, did you miss this gut-read or is there another reason why you didn't ask for elaboration here like you did with Randa and Eurykins?

As to whether I find Rajam or Paperblade worse- why does not making this exact distinction clear matter? I did make it clear that I thought both were scummy. Voting isn't the only way I can commit to a read.

It matters in the sense that it gives the rest of us an idea of where you stand and means scum!you can't decide later on who they found worse depending on who seems like the more convenient option at the time. Also, Prims had asked you already before I did and you ignored him, and I don't see any point in keeping it a secret as town.

In fact I could easily argue that this happened here. You unvoted Rajam mainly with the justification that he was at L-1 at the time, but now that Rajam's wagon has lost steam and people have been voting Paper instead, Paper jumps ahead as your strongest scum read.

Randa is giving me a huge newb!town vibe, I could probably write it out but explaining a townread isn't going to help anything.

Why not? If you're going through the trouble of outing that you're super convinced he's town, you might as well go all the way and tell us why.

---

Anyway, we need to get around to figuring out a lynch target since there's only a bit over half a day left. Updated votals:

Paperblade (3) - BBM, Prims, Frosty Fire Mage

Frosty Fire Mage (3) - Haze, Eurykins, JB

SB (2) - Shinori, Paperblade

JB (2) - Radiant Dragon, Scarlet

Rajam (2) - bearclaw

Scarlet (1) - Rajam

Prims (1) - Randa

Radiant Dragon (1) - SB

BBM (1) - Kaoz

Like I've said before, I'm not happy with lynching Paper since I find it very possible that the things others have described as scummy are merely because he's busy. And let's face it, Paper doesn't have the most consistent scum play in the world where we need to find that one opening to get him, so from a strategic standpoint as well it makes more sense to me to lynch someone else today and wait for more clarity here.

I find myself agreeing with SB (PEdit: and BBM) regarding FF. His posts read bad and are partly factually incorrect, but I don't see the scum intent. This seems like a slot our power roles should take care of over the course of the game, not one we should have to waste a lynch on.

Would still lynch BBM, but nobody besides bearclaw and me seems to have any interest in that. From the wagons with 2 votes, priority is SB > Rajam > JB.

Not sure if I'm gonna post again before going to bed, but I'll be around for deadline.

[charlie_]

@SB

Why are you applying context when talking about the FF votes, but disregard it in Paperblade's case? Why are those posts from scum!Paper rather than from someone who just skims the thread and doesn't reread?

Also where's the scum intent in RD's posts? I'm pretty sure the FF read you pointed out was him reading FF as null based on the Rajam vote, but what he called bad was the Paperblade vote, i.e. two separate instances.

Because he looks like he's just going against the wagon because it built up really quickly and he doesn't want to become associated with what could be a town wagon. The only thing he takes into account is the speed of the wagon, he doesn't seem to try and look into Rajam's posts (and scum can be caught ED1 sometimes and get large wagons on them) or the votes on him that made him feel uncomfortable. Even if he didn't have much time, he could've just stated which of the votes felt bad to him and given a brief explanation of why.

The scum intent in RD's posts are that basically all of his analysis has been worthless considering it's based off of a viewpoint that he doesn't even hold himself, but the only attempt he makes to address that is by attacking me for calling him out for it. He feels sort of disconnected from the game, in that sense.

The point about "being defensive" that I disagreed with was on Frosty, yeah, I just didn't indicate that very well.

[Eurykins]

Am I the only who's noticed that Eury is faulting me for a lack of reads but not the other people with some experience who lack reads? What about Paper or Kaoz? Why single me out on that?

1. As stated in post #190, I missed on checking in on a few people due to me being tired- I apparently missed Paper and Shinori, it seems- maybe a few others. I have to recheck that.

2. However, your posts in themselves, given the amount you had posted, seemed to contribute very little to the overall discussion and pushing for progress (Kaoz had about 8 posts, but most were decent/passable to me; while you had 14+ posts and seemed to bring little to the table). Yes, Kaoz at that time only seemed to draw some suspicions on BBM and Poly, but I felt more worthwhile content and actual interactive pushes from him and his posts, as opposed to yours. That's why your lack of reads, on top of the lack of progression, seems all the worse to me.

[Rajam]

So, how are those votes against Scumlet piling up?

An ISO on that slot should show all of you some truths; read carefully after you've done so:

- #74: It’s like he has a town read on Randa but for some reason doesn’t spit it out. Don’t like.When I asked him later for his read on Randa he just gives a null, when his "confused" read given in this post can only be attributed to town really.
- #74 again: The vote on an inactive doesn’t align with what he postured about me. As Prims said, it’s safe play.
- #76: First paragraph is just a lame excuse. He’s not even asking Haze stuff; is just “parking” his vote in the safest of the ways.

- Impression: Overall not liking his first posts in the game. No (hard) postures, lame vote on inactive, no questions, no comments on past events…

- Second impression as I read further: Scarlet is giving too much focus on the dragonfang's double vote issue. It's a safe topic to comment on.

Let's jump to:

- #157: The reads. Mainly the problem here is that Scumlet uses the "I feel" argument in basically all of them. The postures are weak overall since there isn't really a good analysis (too shallow) and he shields a lot on guts.

- Lastly, you can see that he asks something to Shatter/JB and consumes time on it waiting for a response. He doesn't do anything else meanwhile.

---

That's it. May I invoke the wagon and some wagoners? Thank you all I love you for your cooperation. BTW I'm not seeing the Paperblade hate, probably because I've yet to read the last couple of pages but anyways, I actually liked the part in which he said that dragonfang wouldn't interfere with my questions as scum. Also, once we lynch Scarlet toDay please don't pursue Randa because he's not scum with Scarlet and Randa is just town anyways.

---

If there's stuff addressed at me in the last pages I'll respond once I'm fully caught up. It wouldn't hurt to re-quote though so I don't miss them.

[Scarlet]

Could you try to point out something specific that makes you feel awkward about him?

I feel like it's his choice of votes. His posts seem solid at the surface, but looking at it a bit more closely, it seems that while he's stirring up discussion and pointing out inconsistencies (which are both good things to do), he ends up voting people for reasoning that seems - for his standards - weak.

Right, other stuff:

- JB is looking really terrible right now. Even though he's been called out on it by multiple people, he continues to use a lot of words to express just about nothing and/or repeat what other people have said. He ignores questions directed at him (even though he's clearly shown that he did read other people's posts, so being busy is not an excuse) and now that backing off of Rajam's case was the hip thing to do, he switched to another easy wagon with really bad reasoning. Really want this guy lynched at this point.

- My opinion on Rajam hasn't changed, although I too dislike the fact that he's basically disappeared after people started unvoting him. It really doesn't help his case.

- FFM still looks bad to me, but I guess I can see newb!town as a possibility? I dunno, being a newbie isn't a free pass for everything. Not worth lynching at this point, though, as far as I'm concerned; in part because of his newbie status, in part because he hasn't posted very much so far, so his flip wouldn't even give us terribly much to go on. Honestly, I'm wary of all the FFM bandwagoners (even if I haven't specificially noticed them otherwise).

- My opinion on Paper is unchanged (surprise, he hasn't posted anything since my last post). I can see the Paper case, but I'm not quite feeling it myself at this point.

- Prims is making me feel slightly awkward and I now know why. It's not a strong feeling at this point, but considering how much trouble I usually have reading him, I'm gonna take this seriously.

- I'm also starting to see the case on Haze (I swear the pun isn't intended lol). I feel he's focusing too much on the easy wagons (which isn't helped by his voting), he's using shady logic at points, and he subtly associates himself with other people that I'm iffy about. Wouldn't lynch at this point, but I'm wary of him.

- Shinori kinda stopped contributing again after I commented on it. Ehhh. Right now I mainly want him to make a meaningful post.

- Randa needs to post more.

Everyone else didn't really stick out to me so far, and I can't be bothered to ISO everyone at this point, sorry.

Now, obviously it can't be that literally half the game is scum, so meh.

I feel by far the strongest about JB at this point. I'm willing to switch to Rajam or Paper if needed to secure a lynch (No Lynch doesn't help the town at all), but I'd much rather stick with JB.

Kaoz, how do you feel about Prims currently?

NotActuallyAnEdit (Preview Post, yo):

- #74: It’s like he has a town read on Randa but for some reason doesn’t spit it out. Don’t like.When I asked him later for his read on Randa he just gives a null, when his "confused" read given in this post can only be attributed to town really.

No, that's just wrong. Not standing out as scummy is not automatically being town (even discounting the possibility that 3rd party roles might exist).

Mainly the problem here is that Scumlet uses the "I feel" argument in basically all of them.

How is using the expression "I feel" a problem? Why would I present my reads as facts when in the end I don't know for certain whether I'm correct or not?

since there isn't really a good analysis (too shallow)

You really shouldn't be talking. This is your first "analysis" this game that I can see, and I can't help but notice that you've ignored almost everything else going on in the game since jumping on me.

So here's a couple of questions for you:

- You've associated yourself with Prims on multiple occassions. Do you feel he's town?

- What do you think about Paperblade and JB respectively?

[Randa]

##Unvote

Just starting off discussing what I think so far.

-Poly/Eurykins: Poly seemed pretty scummy. His votes didnt really have a lot of backing and his post were few and weak. He said couldn't play so that might explain those two and Eury has definitely improved my opinion, but I'm not sold that Eury is clean if only because of Poly.

Shinori: Not giving any reads and not really helping to progress. But I'm not ready to lynch yet. Also most of his posts centered around SB which seems weird.

Rajam: Had some poor post earlier and didn't answer questions for a while. Jumps to conclusions to quickly and switches wagons to often for my liking. I'm willing to lynch if that's the conclusion we come to, but he's not jumping out. Also don't like how his activity plunged once the pressure came off of him.

Paper: See Shinori only even less activity. Willing to lynch, but I'm not sold on the fact that he's scum. Would like to see more posts and some actual reads

Bear: Aside from the early game thing he seems like town to me. Hasn't been jumping on wagons, but he may be a bit to focused on Rajam. I still think he's town.

RD: I have no problem with him so far. But hasn't stood out as town.

SB: Seems fine to me. Didnt understand the whole wagon in the first place so I think he's town.

JB: Seems fine to me. Not sure either way.

Haze: I'm 75% percent sure he's town at this point. Has been leading the hunt but by no means has he been a detriment to it.

BBM: Null. I really have nothing else to say. Doesn't strike me as scum but hasn't really been giving any reads. I'm leaning closer to town though.

Prims: Something instinctively seems off here. I don't know what. All my reads come out town. But I don't know man,

Kaoz: Not a high post count, but not bad quality posts. I'm leaning towards town on this.

Scarlet: Seems like town to me. About 72% sure of that.

All that being said I'd like to see some more from Shinori. But I'm willing to change my vote to Paper, Eury, or Rajam if need be.

##Question Shinori

[Rajam]

I feel like it's his choice of votes. His posts seem solid at the surface, but looking at it a bit more closely, it seems that while he's stirring up discussion and pointing out inconsistencies (which are both good things to do), he ends up voting people for reasoning that seems - for his standards - weak.

Right, other stuff:

- JB is looking really terrible right now. Even though he's been called out on it by multiple people, he continues to use a lot of words to express just about nothing and/or repeat what other people have said. He ignores questions directed at him (even though he's clearly shown that he did read other people's posts, so being busy is not an excuse) and now that backing off of Rajam's case was the hip thing to do, he switched to another easy wagon with really bad reasoning. Really want this guy lynched at this point.

- My opinion on Rajam hasn't changed, although I too dislike the fact that he's basically disappeared after people started unvoting him. It really doesn't help his case.

- FFM still looks bad to me, but I guess I can see newb!town as a possibility? I dunno, being a newbie isn't a free pass for everything. Not worth lynching at this point, though, as far as I'm concerned; in part because of his newbie status, in part because he hasn't posted very much so far, so his flip wouldn't even give us terribly much to go on. Honestly, I'm wary of all the FFM bandwagoners (even if I haven't specificially noticed them otherwise).

- My opinion on Paper is unchanged (surprise, he hasn't posted anything since my last post). I can see the Paper case, but I'm not quite feeling it myself at this point.

- Prims is making me feel slightly awkward and I now know why. It's not a strong feeling at this point, but considering how much trouble I usually have reading him, I'm gonna take this seriously.

- I'm also starting to see the case on Haze (I swear the pun isn't intended lol). I feel he's focusing too much on the easy wagons (which isn't helped by his voting), he's using shady logic at points, and he subtly associates himself with other people that I'm iffy about. Wouldn't lynch at this point, but I'm wary of him.

- Shinori kinda stopped contributing again after I commented on it. Ehhh. Right now I mainly want him to make a meaningful post.

- Randa needs to post more.

Everyone else didn't really stick out to me so far, and I can't be bothered to ISO everyone at this point, sorry.

Now, obviously it can't be that literally half the game is scum, so meh.

I feel by far the strongest about JB at this point. I'm willing to switch to Rajam or Paper if needed to secure a lynch (No Lynch doesn't help the town at all), but I'd much rather stick with JB.

Kaoz, how do you feel about Prims currently?

NotActuallyAnEdit (Preview Post, yo):

No, that's just wrong. Not standing out as scummy is not automatically being town (even discounting the possibility that 3rd party roles might exist).

How is using the expression "I feel" a problem? Why would I present my reads as facts when in the end I don't know for certain whether I'm correct or not?

You really shouldn't be talking. This is your first "analysis" this game that I can see, and I can't help but notice that you've ignored almost everything else going on in the game since jumping on me.

So here's a couple of questions for you:

- You've associated yourself with Prims on multiple occassions. Do you feel he's town?

- What do you think about Paperblade and JB respectively?

I still stand that your reads/persecutions are shallow. In this quote for example, the pursue of inactives/players who have been absent is your main focus. That's too easy. Let's go with the other reasons you offered against some players here though:

- JB: How's his wording saying nothing, how do you make the connection to a scummy intention, and how's JB changing of wagon scummy or how's his reasoning bad-scummy ('cause bad alone isn't enough)

- FFM: Who are specifically the players which worry you for being on the FFM wagon. Give the names. Don't be vague. A detailed reasoning for each one of these names would be appreciated too.

- Prims: Go ahead and try to be more specific on your "feels" about Prim and put a better reasoning that can actually be analyzed.

- Haze: Why wouldn't you lynch him? The reasoning you offer is pretty similar to the ones offered against other players, so where do you draw the line that makes Haze not-worth-lynching but others are?

Oh and again, your main focus is pursuing inactives. Too easy; too safe. The major problem is that you don't put a real-deep-good analysis when pursuing for different reasons, it's either "lack of activity" or "feelings/guts".

---

Now, onto your responses to my post and your questions:

- First quote:

Don't come here changing what you said. This is what you said in #74 regarding Randa:

"- Randa kinda makes sense and at the same time doesn't. Seems confused to me more than anything"

How's this not a town read. Or lean at least. Yet you don't acknowledge that, neither in #74 neither when I asked you for your read on Randa. You're just avoiding the commitment. imo you don't/didn't want to clear the guy but still left that just in case for future reference if needed. It both "says" and "doesn't say" your read on Randa; it's just vagueness.

- Second quote:

The problem with the "I feel" thing is that it allows you to avoid a deep analysis and it's also vague when it comes to check if your reads were either hard reads or just leans that can change. It's also safe for the same reasons. And you abuse it, using it a lot. And the lack of a contrast by offering reads with a good reasoning (yeah there isn't even a mix which could be somewhat acceptable; basically all your reads are just "I feel" and shallow).

- Third quote:

I ignored some minor things (basically commentaries that weren't really directed-at-me-questions or players' conclusions that are best left alone rather than going on circles about the same thing and engaging into tunneling-mode), which I decided on purpose to do so in order to avoid over-centralization of the thread around me, which was the route the thread was going into btw (and which would lead to less interaction/input from other players). Again, just minor things. If there's something important I'm missing from early pages people can always ask me again, and regarding what's in the very last 2~3 pages I'll address whatever is directed at me there once I arrive at the discussion there (not fully current on the most recent events/discussions).

---

Your final questions:

- Yep. I've agreed a lot with his observations and so far nothing has called my attention in a scummy way from what he has done.

- Paperblade: Slight town lean (mostly null though, but not really interested in lynching). JB is a whole null since it seems his major input has been given in the last pages and I haven't read in detail there yet.

---

Final words:

This post ended wall-ier than I thought. PEOPLE, DON'T LOSE THE FOCUS: THE IMPORTANT THING IS IN MY #218: LYNCH SCARLET. KTHNKSBAI

[Scarlet]

I still stand that your reads/persecutions are shallow. In this quote for example, the pursue of inactives/players who have been absent is your main focus. That's too easy. Let's go with the other reasons you offered against some players here though:

- JB isn't terribly active, but I'm voting him for the content of his posts, not for his general lack of them.

- You're not inactive.

- All my reads on FFM were after he started posting.

- I've had the same read on Paper when he was still posting.

- Prims isn't inactive.

- Haze isn't inactive.

- Shinori isn't exactly inactive, just not contributing.

- I simply asked Randa to post more. He just did.

So, do explain how inactives are my main focus?

- JB: How's his wording saying nothing, how do you make the connection to a scummy intention, and how's JB changing of wagon scummy or how's his reasoning bad-scummy ('cause bad alone isn't enough)

Do not twist my words. It's not his wording that I take issue with, it's that while his posts are big, he states very little of anything actually meaningful in them.

His reason for voting FFM is bad because not only does it not take into account his newbie status in any way, he's in fact voting him for something he himself did as well (not posting anything meaningful, or "original" as he puts it).

- FFM: Who are specifically the players which worry you for being on the FFM wagon. Give the names. Don't be vague. A detailed reasoning for each one of these names would be appreciated too.

All of them. Go read the latest votals.

As for the reason: piling votes on a defensive, unexperienced newbie with no better reasoning than that it's a defensive, unexperienced newbie is a pretty popular move amongst the mafia, simply because it's so easy.

- Haze: Why wouldn't you lynch him? The reasoning you offer is pretty similar to the ones offered against other players, so where do you draw the line that makes Haze not-worth-lynching but others are?

There's other people that I'm more concerned about right now is why. He hasn't stood out as much to me as some others (like I've implied).

Don't come here changing what you said. This is what you said in #74 regarding Randa:

"- Randa kinda makes sense and at the same time doesn't. Seems confused to me more than anything"

How's this not a town read. Or lean at least. Yet you don't acknowledge that, neither in #74 neither when I asked you for your read on Randa. You're just avoiding the commitment. imo you don't/didn't want to clear the guy but still left that just in case for future reference if needed. It both "says" and "doesn't say" your read on Randa; it's just vagueness.

I'm not changing what I said at all. It's you who's twisting the meaning of my words to mean something that I never implied.

- Second quote:

The problem with the "I feel" thing is that it allows you to avoid a deep analysis and it's also vague when it comes to check if your reads were either hard reads or just leans that can change. It's also safe for the same reasons. And you abuse it, using it a lot. And the lack of a contrast by offering reads with a good reasoning (yeah there isn't even a mix which could be somewhat acceptable; basically all your reads are just "I feel" and shallow).

Dude, that's just how I express myself. I'll happily explain any read I'm asked about in more detail if I'm able to.

- Third quote:

I ignored some minor things (basically commentaries that weren't really directed-at-me-questions or players' conclusions that are best left alone rather than going on circles about the same thing and engaging into tunneling-mode), which I decided on purpose to do so in order to avoid over-centralization of the thread around me, which was the route the thread was going into btw (and which would lead to less interaction/input from other players). Again, just minor things. If there's something important I'm missing from early pages people can always ask me again, and regarding what's in the very last 2~3 pages I'll address whatever is directed at me there once I arrive at the discussion there (not fully current on the most recent events/discussions).

Completely ignoring all wagons other than the one you yourself are pushing (as in, you're not even giving any thoughts on them) is not "minor". The town needs to play as a team - more opinions on a subject are always good. Going singleplayer and ignoring everything except the case you're pursuing yourself is bad.

[charlie_]

Tired and off my laptop. Making this quickly.

Don't like Rajam's last post, there are a lot of misinterpretations of Raymond's play like "saying someone seems confused means you think they're town, so you're going back on what you said earlier". That wasn't a townread at all, and even then opinions can change over time and he provided a reason why iirc. There's also discreditting the JB attack based on the fact it mentioned word choice, when the point was that he said very little using a lot of words, among other things.

Ugh too tired going to sleep

##Unvote

##Vote: Paperblade

Scummiest person who has a chance of becoming a wagon imo

[Shinori]

I'm here gonna try to get caught up.

[Shinori]

I dislike people who are saying I'm not giving reads considering all of my reads have stayed about the same. I've stated reads on people who I think are scum; would you like me to go ahead and list off every last one of my null and town reads as well?

I thought stating town reads was a bad idea? >_> I give reads about 3-5 people that I dislike and that I think are likely to flip scum the most and I'm told I give no reads. I guess I should state null and town reads and have 7 or so scum reads cause that would be helpful.