CYOU'RE - Game Over

[Percivalé]

If I haven't said anything about it, you can assume it hasn't changed...

and I don't think I made my point on Mancer that long ago, did I?

although I don't remember Paper's content since the last time I commented on him

[Bluedoom]

Junk's reasoning for voting Shin over Mancer is he likes Mancer's case on me ( or this is what I assume from his response to Mitsuki asking the same question by bolding that part of his post. Source: #349 and #350

[Sunwoo]

If I haven't said anything about it, you can assume it hasn't changed...

and I don't think I made my point on Mancer that long ago, did I?

Unless I missed something in your ISO I think this was the last point you mentioned your read on Mancer?

[Percivalé]

idk I need to reread Mancer I guess but I have this super huge gut feeling that we should lynch Randa now

##Unvote

##Vote: Randa

it is really bugging me

like a lot

it's bugging me so much

[BBM]

I'm like dead tired right now so I'll post more than this in the morning sorry

@Boron- Dormio seems to have fallen off the map really fast so I'm still at kind of a mild suspicion there? I didn't really like his reasoning for sticking to Shin; he was just like 'why Junko over other lurkers' even though Shin explained this. And listposts are in general lame and even worse in huge games like this because you spend more time saying 'this dude needs to post' or 'dunno about this guy yet' than you do talking about actual reads.

Marth was like 'I'll respond to BBM in another post' and then never really did so idk but he was around like 20 minutes ago so hopefully he gets on that. I don't really get why he unvoted Paper, afaicr Paper didn't have real content between either (which Marth said too I think). His Mancer vote doesn't make sense to me because he doesn't have a good handle on Mancer's meta. He said himself that he was townreading Mancer in the last game when he was scum. And the 'town meta' he lists about Mancer that Mancer supposedly isn't following actually looks more like his scum meta to me, where Mancer jumps on every little thing in the thread and has a general sleazy tone. I know that Marth has more to it than the meta but I just don't get why Marth would try to meta him in the first place. I'll look at the rest of it more closely tomorrow.

[Bluedoom]

Marth, the point I was trying to make was that it seemed to me that you were picking on the Dormio wagon more because it was easy content than because you didn't like the votes there.

Your reasons for the Paperblade vote are because... he disagrees with you? That's literally what it looks like to me- you believe that it was a dumb play rather than a scum play and therefore anyone who can't determine the former from the latter and is also a good player is automatically scum? Your meta on Paper about him being waffly doesn't make sense either. Let's say that yes, his Randa vote was wishy-washy. Well it's still not waffly because he definitely committed to a vote there didn't he? Where has his play been indecisive?

As for 'what's the scum benefit in overreacting'... trying to paint someone as scummy for bad reasons isn't a scum move to you?

And now this is what I think is worst about Marth. He goes 'Dormio's actions were dumb so he's not scum' but then says, and I quote: 'And yes I DO think there is/was scum on the dormio wagon because it was fast and based off of dumb reasoning where people like to instantly think of dumb play as scum play'. But he literally just said that dumb play isn't scummy play. And this is it seems more as if he's just trying to pick on the Dormio wagon for the sake of it.

Except that isn't what I'm even doing, otherwise everyone on the wagon would be a priority for me. Of the people on the wagon I thought Pblade was most likely to be scum via meta, which is obviously why I voted him? I didn't expect him to be more verbose about his wagon hop because he usually has a one-liner as town and does that; and if his second round of content was better I would've shifted my vote but it wasn't. He DOES waffle on his Mancer read and excuses Shin for being Shin but he votes Randa who is arguably being himself and is like that regardless of alignment? We can keep discussing the validity of my Paper read but unless he posts content and it doesn't come across as scummy and more townie, I'm not changing my read.

Its kinda why I didn't immediately jump on to the conclusion of scum!mancer(hell I didn't even scumread you off of your Dormio vote) or scum! Refa.

Yeah you're right I should've distinguished between the words better and made it clear, but, the thing is Dormio's ED1 shenanigans are a null tell in all honesty. If a wagon forms quickly and most of it is repeating the same reasoning (bar Shin's) then that is definitely suspicious.

[Bluedoom]

I cbf to push the paper case if I can't convince anyone, forget the fact that people think my paper case is scummy LOL. There's is some support for a Mancer lynch and btw the meta I'm using on him is totally from Qprogue. And like. Many other town games he had before hiatus but I'll cite Qprogue because its the most recent game where I played with Town!Mancer

[eclipse]

Fucking quote tags.

Well, it was better than most~! Now use a better browser, like Pale Moon

That being said, arguments that contain little analysis aren't very helpful - all it shows is that whoever posted it didn't bother thinking it through.

Don't agree with Mancer's scumread on Bluedoom (this doesn't just apply to Mancer, but everyone; I actually think Bluedoom is super townie at this point and don't get why people are casing him at all; his reply post to the reads on him is also legit), but at least I can get where he's coming from.

NO. WE ARE NOT HAVING A SECOND RANDA.

If you "don't get it", then get to looking at those cases, and start asking questions. Unless you want your townread to be a point of discussion (and possibly a lynch, since there's several people that have expressed reservations about Marth).

Well people aren't going to agree to my paper read so this is the next best thing!

I don't like this one bit. Yes, you can push other people while you're voting Paper, but dropping Paper for that reason is the first really scummy thing I've seen from you.

I also forgot to mention that Mancer is the guy who's town meta is to have 101 scumreads and maybe tunnel on a few players who he'll have strong reads on. The fact that there was a period where all he had only town-null reads and struggled to get a case on someone irks me too btw.

Lay off the meta, you're going to end up with all sorts of inexplicable diseases from it!

Randa and Shin are being used as scapegoats IMO because nothing suggests that their actions have scum intent and its mostly people just using textbook scumtells as objective data when all of this is just failed deductive reasoning. Randa having an erratic playstyle is lit just the way he plays as any alignment and this is the same with Shin making votes which give me headaches. Yeah people say the same thing about my Paper read but the thing is its also heavily based on meta and I feel strong about it because I feel like he's being verbose where its not necessary whenever he posts but I'm p sure at this point people scumread me for this case and disagree with it ;-;. The exception is Refa using meta on Shin and voting him anyway.

I do NOT like using meta for excusing such things, and your read is slowly going into scum territory because you're trying to justify scummy behavior via meta (which is a weak basis for cases, and a weaker response to them).

I can attest to the fact that Boron likes making excuses to lurk and we've discussed using such excuses to pop away from posting as scum as well.

Why is this relevant?

I just realized that eclipse quoting me and talking about not thinking through responses was directed at Randa /facedesk

BRB banning you

It looks like Junko's MO is to vote for someone while trying to build a case on someone else, except that I can't even follow his logic. Here's the last "large" content post by him. I'm going to break it up by paragraphs, and perhaps Junko can attempt to fill in the gaps, because I can't even (or odd).

People usually vote for self meta because it generally tends to be used for WIFOM IMO. However in this context BBM had been talking about dormios meta so why couldn't dormio use meta? I don't get how dormio was trying to say nope i'm town?

While this looks like it might be a nice response. . .which post is it responding to?

Bluedooms reasons were that Shin was generally a hard player to read. Again I've only played with shin in one game so I can't really say whether or not he's a hard player to read generally.

You're playing in a game with Shin NOW. Do you think he's hard to read?

SB:Scum shin being low key as scum meta yeah.

But you just said that you're not sure if he's hard to read because you've played one game with him, yet you know his scum meta?

I'm confused by Mancer's SB vote. I don't get how disliking a persons interpretations of other peoples post makes them scummy and how SB was trying to make an excuse to bandwagon? I'll admit though his bluedoom case is better.

FFS, it's Mancer, The Dude With Too Many Posts. Can you at least quote the post with Mancer's wonky SB logic?

##Unvote:

##Vote shin

-> spends time talking about Mancer's weird logic

-> votes Shin

This does not make the least bit of sense.

also you can't expect a response from me at 4:00 AM shin XD

THIS is perfectly clear~!

Shin's vote isn't "useless" either considering a number of people would at least consolidate on me today?

No. You don't just stare at a pretty vote on you. WHY should Shin move his vote? WHY shouldn't I vote you (twice)?

I'd be more comfortable with a vig shot on Junko, TBH, just because I can't follow his train of thought (and I don't have high hopes for his responses to any other votes). I'd rather lynch someone who'll at least attempt to respond to votes.

For someone who claims to have "fleeting reads", Mancer's doing a pretty good job of recalling things (like Marth's BBM read). It reads like he's actually trying to do something, as opposed to agreeing to things because someone else said it first. Marth's usage of meta is worse than Refa's, and trying to excuse people's awful content through meta is something that I can't get behind, and the logic he used to drop the Paper case bugs me.

##Unvote

##Vote: Marth

Content > meta

[Dormio]

I dunno man, I'm having a lot of trouble following this game but I still feel like voting Shin so it's all like whatever.

[Junk]

It looks like Junko's MO is to vote for someone while trying to build a case on someone else, except that I can't even follow his logic. Here's the last "large" content post by him. I'm going to break it up by paragraphs, and perhaps Junko can attempt to fill in the gaps, because I can't even (or odd).

While this looks like it might be a nice response. . .which post is it responding to?

You're playing in a game with Shin NOW. Do you think he's hard to read?

But you just said that you're not sure if he's hard to read because you've played one game with him, yet you know his scum meta?

FFS, it's Mancer, The Dude With Too Many Posts. Can you at least quote the post with Mancer's wonky SB logic?

-> spends time talking about Mancer's weird logic

-> votes Shin

This does not make the least bit of sense.

THIS is perfectly clear~!

No. You don't just stare at a pretty vote on you. WHY should Shin move his vote? WHY shouldn't I vote you (twice)?

eclipse: here's what I didn't see in this post.

1. WHY would Shin vote on someone based on that?

2. Did anyone else feel that Shin wasn't worth voting for? What were their reasons?

:

This is what I was responding to.

No I don't think Shin is a hard player to read.

sb: I also seem to remember scum!Shin being more low key than he is when he's town, and he's managing to attract a lot of attention this game, so there's that.

This is what I meant by saying that SB said that scum!shin seemed to be more low key and I can't really disagree or agree with this statement because I've never actually played in a game with !scum shin.

@SB: Making the first non-RVS vote doesn't mean that he's posted a lot of content. It just means he's the first person to have a serious vote. Furthermore, his posts right after that have either been a complete reiteration of his case on kirsche or prodding other players needlessly (mostly Boron but oh well). ##Vote: SB. right now because I don't really like his interpretation of Dormio's posts and I feel that he is scum trying to come up with an excuse to move onto one of the potential wagons (on me. Yeah, I admit, I get mislynched a lot, lol).

This was the wonky logic on SB from Mancer.

No. You don't just stare at a pretty vote on you. WHY should Shin move his vote? WHY shouldn't I vote you (twice)?

Except that's not what i'm doing? Mancer was saying in this post that shin's vote was useless because it was "pointless" and didn't really accomplish anything which I disagreed with because although I don't want to be lynched there are a still a decent number of people who would lynch me today so it doesn't make the vote "useless".

[Paperblade]

By the way, I'm gonna be out for most of the day tomorrow so expect no posts.

and because gayoz demands it

I SEE YOU RIDING ROUND TOWN WITH THE GIRL I LOVE

AND I'M LIKE

FUCK YOU

[Mitsuki]

Content later. This is probably not the best time to claim this, but I kept debating on whether I should claim or not and waiting to see if I could guess what to do with my role by myself. Oh well.

I'm an invoker, which is a role Prims made up, apparently. I target someone in-thread and command them to perform a night action, which can't be used in addition to their action. I don't recieve any results, but my target does. The actions I can perform are watch, track or roleblock. Tracking and watching can't work the usual way since who is targeted is public, but those actions can be used to check claimed targets or to prevent someone from being nightkilled. Roleblock is pretty much the same.

For the first target, I'll obviously choose someone who doesn't have a night action so that actions don't go to waste; if all claims we get are of people who have night actions I'd like someone to claim they don't have a night action so that I can command them to perform the action. For the second target I don't know which action would be the most useful, so I'd like to hear opinions on this.

[Shinori]

TL;DR of stuff.

Dormio's early push on Kirsche looks bad to me and I don't really feel much better about his later posts. Would lynch.

People should like, sheep Eclipse.

I don't see the Shin case and I need to go through all of the people that seemed to push him really hard cause I felt it was awful.

Marth's probably scum. A lot of text, very little actual vote hunting. I feel his posts are more likely than not just distracting people.

Also personally don't like Randa at the moment either.

I'll try to be around and actually be active tomorrow. Sorry guys.

I'll be honest. I've been playing warlords of draenor. I'm awful and I'm sorry.

##Vote: Marth

[Vhaltz]

Not playing

and because gayoz demands it

I SEE YOU RIDING ROUND TOWN WITH THE GIRL I LOVE
AND I'M LIKE
FUCK YOU

What

Not playing

[MancerNecro]

Oh what is with all these claims?

@Mitsuki: How would we know that you're really sending in the actions that town has agreed on? I could see your role as a scum role to Roleblock town?

[Refa]

Mancer, it would be very easy to catch Mitsuki on a lie and honestly the way she claimed her role is townie as fuck; also it'll probably be obvious that she's town later on.

How does Marthipan have very little actual scumhunting? These scumreads on him are just infuriating to me (addendum: I can get where eclipse is coming from even though I don't disagree with it and SB's to some extent as well, but I'd actually take a serious look at the other cases on him because to me it just looks like scum counterwagoning to save Shin); the only good thing to come out of them is when Marthipan will be forced to vote Shin and lynch actual scum. <3

Content later. This is probably not the best time to claim this, but I kept debating on whether I should claim or not and waiting to see if I could guess what to do with my role by myself. Oh well.

I'm an invoker, which is a role Prims made up, apparently. I target someone in-thread and command them to perform a night action, which can't be used in addition to their action. I don't recieve any results, but my target does. The actions I can perform are watch, track or roleblock. Tracking and watching can't work the usual way since who is targeted is public, but those actions can be used to check claimed targets or to prevent someone from being nightkilled. Roleblock is pretty much the same.

For the first target, I'll obviously choose someone who doesn't have a night action so that actions don't go to waste; if all claims we get are of people who have night actions I'd like someone to claim they don't have a night action so that I can command them to perform the action. For the second target I don't know which action would be the most useful, so I'd like to hear opinions on this.

Unrelated, but your role name amuses me, since I was invoker in QProgue haha.

1: Don't target me.

2: It really depends on how much you trust whoever you're targeting. If you really trust them, then Roleblock/Watcher is fine (Watcher might be fine regardless, but it's a pretty good scum role so I'm hesitant about that) but otherwise just go with Tracker which is a shit role for scum. Roleblock might also decrease the chances of you getting NK'd, so that's a thing I guess.

[Refa]

Wait, does your role override factional kills? Although I guess that'd serve the same purpose as a Roleblock...

[Percivalé]

Target me

[Refa]

*don't agree with it

Fuck you, typing.

[Percivalé]

Really you should do what you want tho

[Shin]

I dunno man, I'm having a lot of trouble following this game but I still feel like voting Shin so it's all like whatever.

This feels like a cop-out. I can appreciate it's a tough game to follow, but your last few posts have been "By the way, I'm voting Shin for something that happened at the beginning of this phase". I'm getting similar vibes from Refa and kirsche, although I can't recall a game where kirsche hasn't gone with all out offense on me.

This bothers me from Mancer. I don't know why but it gives off the air that "maybe my active reads aren't good, are scum in here?"

Randa keeps getting mentioned a lot but for some reason I keep mentally ignoring his posts. I should really go back and read some of them!

[Refa]

[spoiler=Irrelevant Amusing Comments]

You know what's funny? Reading back, my interactions with Marthipan are actually pretty similar to those in QProgue (for those of you not in the know, we were scumbuddies in that game). Someone should call me out on that IMO.

I'm not voting you for any of your actions at the beginning of the phase, none of which bothered me.

I don't really see what's wrong with that Mancer post. Also TBH, I've had the same problem with Randa haha.

[Dormio]

This feels like a cop-out. I can appreciate it's a tough game to follow, but your last few posts have been "By the way, I'm voting Shin for something that happened at the beginning of this phase".

It's more that your more recent posts don't really convince me enough for me to change my mind.

[Mitsuki]

@Mitsuki: How would we know that you're really sending in the actions that town has agreed on? I could see your role as a scum role to Roleblock town?

Dude, I stated that I have to post my command in-thread...

Target me

I'm 100% cool with this

Wait, does your role override factional kills?

Nope, it only makes the user unable to use other role-related actions.

So I went and ISOd Dormio on NotV2 (recent MotK game where he was town), which has been a pain to do for several reasons.

He was also like "I don't want to move my vote now" while not reconsidering nor updating his case there, so I don't think that him not reconsidering his Shin vote is indicative of alignment. He was about as active there as he was here during D1, when he put the most effort and content was on D2. No listposts there though, in NotV2 he focused on commenting on his scumreads (someone asked for comments on this)

Overall I think Dormio's null right now, I went to check his listpost as Refa suggested and there is a lot of filler, but some other posts seem townie. Whether Dormio's town or scum will probably be clear based on his D2 activity anyways, so not worth focusing on it right now.

[Bluedoom]

People shouldn't lynch me because I give ppl this nice privilege that is useful for town and if I was scum with this role it would be totally pointless. Also I proved it to someone N0 and if they think they know what I am or mean they can totally vouch for it. Meh I'm probably gonna be forced to claim this shit too which sucks because all of this is because people harp on my Paper case as though its the scummiest thing in the game or something and this whole thing started like fuck yesterday.

I mean votes like Shinori's are atrocious and make me wonder why I even /effort'd into this game.