Inception Mafia

[Grace]

i've had my think

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

empty unvotes just don't fly. considering there is enough precedent as well, this ain't good. boron eased my concerns about that playerslot a little, but i'm still not happy with the policy vote stuff from scorri. would still vote SB as well.

(also rein if you see this, you really need to post otherwise i'm going to assume you're playing like you did in C9++, cough)

[riariadne]

(also rein if you see this, you really need to post otherwise i'm going to assume you're playing like you did in C9++, cough)

that would make me mafia aka town this game though

in all seriousness so that whole thing about being active yesterday didn't happen cause of some bullshit moving things. I'll be working at a post slowly throughout the day but phoneposting is hard

[j00]

boron: i'm aware that i'm almost voteparking via, but at some point he blatantly said he'd just stop defending himself, which is null, and then continued doing stuff i said was scummy, like dropping votes without explaining them. in other words, there's nothing that's happened that's lessened my scumread on them

and i'm sure this isn't alignment related or on purpose, but both manix and levity are very fickle in their votes, and their last votehoppings have been on the same person as each other, following each other within a few posts. it's a null tell, but i find votehopping to be bad play (though i'm at the other end of the playstyle spectrum, since people are blaming me for voteparking) and along with manix guarding via like a dog most of the game ever since prims rvs voted them is making the game increasingly frustrating to play. while you're probably not doing it on purpose it feels like the entire game is played on bias

i don't like manix's play lately exactly due to how often he changes targets and how these targets are usually people voting via, but he's currently a null since i doubt scum would claim like he did (i claimed framer in potc but giving up mass tailor isn't really worth it) and considering the nature of the game his role isn't really scummy

disagree with scorri's policy vote this late in the game, it is weird going from no reads to a policy vote D2 and while i want ate dealt with i prefer to do it in the postgame, and it should be voted mainly if it is scummy

boron's fine so far tho

i admit i'm getting more annoyed over this game in general too, which is affecting my reads and i'm going to step back and cool down for a while after this post

and while i still want to have via lynched it's starting to feel like beating a dead horse, and i'm good with lynching shinori too

his latest post is vague and he still says he hasn't read the entire thread. earlier he appeared as he had reasons for finding objection scummy which would get explained later, but now he says objection was mainly scummy due to PoE. i still don't understand his strong intent in lynching rein, says sb was bad without really elaborating why, and concludes with that he'd be happy to lynch any of these two and scorri.

from the wording it sounds like he finds rein the scummiest, but votes scorri because...? it was the biggest wagon?

##Unvote

##Vote: Shinori

[j00]

also can we have votals, those are a rarity in this game

[BBM]

Votals

(3) Refa: Grass, Levity, Manix
(2) Grass: Refa, Furet
(4) Shinori: Rein, Kay, Boron, j00
(1) Levity: SB

(1) Boron: Shinori

(1) Rein: Strege

(3) Voteless Town: Euklyd, kirsche, Poly

I think there are 28 hours left? Don't quote me on that.

[Grace]

@j00: the last two days have been a bit eh. the fact that i seem to be voting people voting via isn't a bias, it's just because those people happen to look scummy to me, mostly due to awful vote logic/tunneling/whatever. i explained what i could about why i shifted my votes as i did.

i'll try and casebuild proper stuff tomorrow. for now though, i sleep because i really shouldn't be awake otherwise i'm gonna die

[Grassbridger]

Anyway, however it's most accurately described, I think you're being a jerk in a scummy way. It feels kinda like bullying people into not saying anything against you.

I'm sorry. This is the second game in a row where, despite not feeling particularly affected by emotion while posting, I was accused of bullying to try to get what I want. That's clearly something I'll have to work on, because it just didn't occur to me that it might be perceived that way.

Anyway, the point of me wanting Parrhesia to explicitly say I was lying is the fact that I had already given explanations for things he was accusing me of, and he didn't acknowledge them, so I wanted him to acknowledge to himself, "yes, I saw this, and I don't believe it."

Thoughts right now: still not liking Shinori, trying to reason through scorri's AtE votepark so maybe her, Strege's Objection shot is probably fine, I feel like I need to reread SB and Rein because they've both been getting some notice. Refa maintains my vote for now because nothing in the last few pages of thread stood out on a once-over read; I'll do a more detailed read tonight.

Actually yeah as I'm typing I think I've reasoned through scorri's policy vote. I see it as null because she did mention it before the game started, and more pertinently, if personal issues made her not want to play the game (and I'm assuming that's why she subbed) then the policy vote is a way to vote without thinking about the game too much, i.e. it happened for reasons completely unrelated to alignment or really the game.

[Grassbridger]

Anyway, the point of me wanting Parrhesia to explicitly say I was lying is the fact that I had already given explanations for things he was accusing me of, and he didn't acknowledge them, so I wanted him to acknowledge to himself, "yes, I saw this, and I don't believe it."

...or, better yet, say "yeah that makes sense", but you know

[charlie_]

>suspecting since 24-ish hours into D1

>not tunneling

notice that you always seemed to go back to via when poly wasn't a good wagon choice (subbing out, claim). the eury vote which was like, 10 minutes before deadline, wasn't even one of your main suspicions, yet you felt the need to justify the vote when the only counterwagon had a provable claim. reads like "i'm going to justify my vote so I don't look as bad when eury flips!" which has fairly self-explanatory scum intent.

yes, it isn't tunneling because that isn't the definition of tunneling and you know it. holding a suspicion for a prolonged period of time is something that people can do regardless of alignments. if you're gonna attack me for having low amounts of scumreads then go for it (even though i disagree i'm scum obviously), but what i'm doing isn't tunneling.

yes i went back to via because she was my secondary scumread, hence the person i would go to if my primary scumread was proven to be town or whatever, i don't know why you're pushing this as scummy when it isn't, and you're outright contradicting that i was tunneling via when you mention my poly read. i had enough time to read eury so i figured i would skim her iso and check that i didn't think she was super town or something, or else i might've voted for objection.

anyway onto other people.

Kay's last post had like, no real content in it, and her post before that was super lacking too imo, with only one line scumreads. Her main D1 post looking back just seems like she's pressing against Prims for being incorrect in a few statements rather than for stuff that's actually scummy and a point you admit is mostly gut that doesn't really make much sense, especially considering it would be the argument made by Prims were he a townie in the situation. Not really keen on Kay atm.

Boron, why do you feel like scum were on the Eury wagon last minute? Pretty much anyone who was around had to jump on her wagon to manage to get the lynch to work, so I don't really get this point. I do like your posts more than I did scorri's though.

Refa's unvote is bad in an objective sense but I don't see him doing it as scum at all tbh, especially not doing it twice. Just looks like a really easy thing to attack imo considering I don't really see the scum intent behind it at all, it reads to me like a townie who's bummed that he reread someone and they didn't turn out as scummy as he thought they were.

Read up on Shinori's content too despite thinking that his inactivity is null. There isn't much I dislike about him tbqh, aside from maybe the last sentence of this post. which kinda bugs me because it looks like a completely preempted defense. He should post more and give more reasons for stuff (like why I'm scum) but I think he's playing like he normally does and isn't scum for it.

##Unvote

##Vote: Kay

[Zkirsche]

I cracked my knuckles in preparation for something successfully for the first time just now. Pretty cool.

[spoiler=Refa]

I'd vote Poly but eh, he's subbing out and I'd like a reasonable post from his replacement instead of having said person waste all their time defending themself.

I don't really like this thought process, you shouldn't stop pressuring a slot just because they subbed out. I understand wanting to hear the newbie's opinions but that shouldn't take a backseat to scrutinising.

I'll reread Prims later, my first impressions had me pinning him down as town honestly.

Smart guy.

Skimmed through the thread, more detailed post incoming.

[...]

##Unvote

"I'll make a post following this one later" *doesn't come back for 24 hours*

That combined with the empty unvote kinda makes it clear that scumhunting isn't really his top priority at this point.

Don't like Grassbridger at all.

This was rebutted well but I'm still reading it as a genuine attempt at scumhunting even if the overall argument is bad.

Hey, what do you people who are online now think of Grassbridger? I'd like some reasons for why you aren't voting him or why your scumread is scummier.

You'd think with this guy as a major scumspect people would pay more attention and comment on his cases but apparently not.

#542 is screaming town to me hard. If he was mafia I'd expect him to go "welp ok" at the criticisms but it honestly felt like he was trying to reassess his scumread in light of the rebuttal to his attack. Unvoting is bad but others have been complaining about not being able to read anyone all game so maybe he isn't just failing at scumhunting.

tl;dr poor priorities D1 and poor cases but reading more as frustrated town than manipulative scum today. Would not lynch out of 10.

[spoiler=Shinori]

@#203 Is Refa scum, I don't quite know what you think of him other than that he's stupid and shouldn't be taken seroiusly.

This should like hurry up and get lynched.

This makes it sound like he thinks Rein is scummier but he votes Scorri anyway. Speaking of, I don't get why he didn't criticise Scorri for her Eury swap before she was getting pressured by other people.

Most of my other reads are town or null reads.

What about Strege? Can you give a lynch priority?

tl;dr Drops a read (Strege) and never makes his views clear about another (Refa). Want some answers/10.

[spoiler=Strege]

doesn't actually push Rein or ask questions to promote discussion.

I don't actually agree with this, voting someone is still stating "what you're doing is wrong." and given pressure he should reassess his own thoughts and it tells him that he needs to talk about it more.

The disparity in tone between his Shinori and Prims reads followed by apparent equivalence in read intensity is pinging me here.

I don't really understand this, it was clear that he thought Prims was scummier by the vote so surely that reflects the more assertive tone wrt Prims?

Your rein vote is good. What do you make of Quote's arguments against the Scorri slot? What do you think of Refa, who was on your scum priority yesterday.

[spoiler=Kay]

Prims' summary of the first Kay post is pretty accurate on a reread.

That's a pretty angry response to someone questioning why he wasn't voting a guy when he was just talking about how scummy their claim was. Reads like defensive panicky scum to me.

I'm pretty sure this is just Shinori's meta. I feel like you're voting him for being his usual self and for not having a lot of content which is kinda lazy. It's the same with your grassbridger suspicion, who you're accusing of trying to bully people into submission. Being a dick isn't scummy, you were complaining that Prims was a total jerk and yet he flipped town so there's a counterexample to your reasoning in this thread that you yourself have addressed. I especially dislike coasting by on something like this because it feels hard to attack someone who's criticising dickish play because dickish play is something to be deterred.

tl;dr poor D1, rehashing the same poor case over and over again. Would lynch/10

[spoiler=Scorri]

Getting lazy so I don't want to quote but I still think their vote switch to objection! was bad, it feels like they were defending Furet just a bit too much. It's obvious that she has a serious problem with any kind of hypocrisy but the vote hopping seems a little too defensive for my liking. I also agree with Shinori about the switch to Eury as well (though I still dislike the way he didn't mention it until he was pressured by people for stuff), I don't really think the Janvig claim really affected anything and the way the statement's there makes me think that it's just there as an excuse to want to consolidate on the Eury wagon. Think the stuff with Bizz is mostly null though as it's just personal bias, Bizz is right about policy voting being lazy but I didn't see that intent in her recent posts, I read the frustration as genuine and I think that was proven by the sub request. Both town and scum can get frustrated and I don't see what she wrote as leaning either way.

tl;dr Pretty damn scummy, want to see stuff from Boron.

Still want to read Rein and Furet as they were my D1 scumspects, along with Quote, SB and Poly.

##Vote: Kay

Kay > Scorri > Shinori

[Percivalé]

on reread yeah I wouldn't lynch shinori. maybe I should reread Kay because her stuff hasn't been memorable to me since she attacked Prims and voted him in D1

@j00

if you have an issue with me postgame I'd prefer if you took it up with me privately for a personal reason and that goes for all of you too lol. I'd rather avoid anything happening

[Shinori]

I guess under 24 hours means I should claim.

I'm a redirector. I redirected Objection to Rein. I was thinking Objection would choose to kill that night and this way I could use him to get rid of one of my scum reads.

When Objection died alongside Prims I was confused because I didn't see Rein die either. So I asked the mods a few questions before I started posting.

[euklyd]

Hi so I'm awake + have internet + some time. I'll try to get something up before class.

Oh and, before I forget (again), Poly, are you informed as to whether anyone received your Role PM? Or do you just know that IF anyone targeted your target, then they got your Role PM?

[MRDRHAWK]

Hi so I'm awake + have internet + some time. I'll try to get something up before class.

Oh and, before I forget (again), Poly, are you informed as to whether anyone received your Role PM? Or do you just know that IF anyone targeted your target, then they got your Role PM?

I don't think I would be notified if someone got my role PM, no.

[j00]

shinori's claim is null, redirecting town's killing roles can easily be done by scum too

do you have any new reads, or can you at least elaborate why you're so sure rein is scum? so sure you'd take a shot at him, at least?

want reads from euklyd and poly too, only thing poly's done this phase is messing up his role and claim, and while i'd like manix to test it before any lynch on him he hasn't done a lot of townie stuff either

[Grace]

i woke up (a while ago actually) and my brain is still very scattered. restless sleep does that.

@SB: fine, maybe not tunneling. however, lazy scumhunting fits the bill still, and i have been mentioning that.

wasn't interested in lynching shinori and i'm still not. i don't think kay is scum.

he hasn't done a lot of townie stuff either

can i actually get some clarity as to who you're referring to here because you could mean either poly or me (I think it's me though?).

also poly out your target before phase end. i'll target there tonight + if anyone else wants to also prove poly they can target there too

[Grace]

cases come later if my brain decides to work properly. i know i've promised it etc so i'll try later.

looking at refa's iso though it looks like mostly defense + some uninspired scumhunting. further augmented by empty unvotes.

[j00]

i mean poly, what he's done this game that's memorable is claiming super early what we all thought was a watcher variant, and then flubbing his role this phase

i mean, just what

i doubt a scumteam would let anything like this happen, but it's not exactly helpful to town either

[Grace]

from what i can tell, refa's only original thought was actually on grass, everything else was partly borrowed for his scumreads. and now he doesn't even realy think grass is scum, sooooo

[Grace]

i mean poly, what he's done this game that's memorable is claiming super early what we all thought was a watcher variant, and then flubbing his role this phase

okay. wanted to make sure because english is hard (and confusing sometimes)

[Sunwoo]

Hey Paper or BBM, is it possible to get links to the end and the start of a phase, or to previous votals? It would make finding things a lot easier.

I did a quick analysis of the Prims wagon from D1, and while I disagree with the basis of all of the Prims votes I dislike Grassbridger and Kay's votes the most. (And Poly's, but apparently he has a super provable role so I'm not going to vote him.)

I already explained why I don't like Grass, he's being really defensive. It feels like he's more concerned at deconstructing the cases on him than actually finding scum (or calling people scum for having "bad cases" on him). And while emotion is a null tell, just how angry he's getting about people suspecting him feels like he's trying to dissuade people from continuing to pursue him by making it unpleasant.

Kay's case on Prims seemed really simplified, and I don't really understand how what she accused him of necessarily made him scummier than anyone else. I'm not just seeing the case and it felt opportunistic. I don't like what she has in D2 as well. Do you have any other opinions on people besides Shinori? I can't tell whether you actually think Levity, Refa, and Grass (whom you mentioned in your first D2 post) are scummy or not.

While I still feel that Manix and Quote were way too reactive to Prims (and in general) and fickle with their voting, I'm actually not leaning towards Manix as scum. While his defending Quote so much is kind of clouding up my read on him, he doesn't FEEL like he's posting from a scum mindset. I'm not as familiar with Quote's meta to say anything about that. In a vortex, I don't like how he's been playing, but I'm not comfortable calling him scum just yet.

Looked through Refa, SB, and Strege's ISOs. I don't like how Refa had dropped his Shinori suspicion so fast. I'm not as bugged by "empty unvotes", but it does bother me that he had no one else he suspected at all after he unvoted Shinori. His suspicion on SB (whom he didn't vote, but did express suspicion on once in D2?) was also likewise dropped after rereading him, and he just drops his Grassbridger suspicion recently as well. Refa feels really "non-committal" in his scum reads. I don't like how he drops them easily, and in the case of Grass and Shinori doesn't have anyone else he suspects that he feels the need to vote.

There isn't anything SB is doing that I actually "dislike", although I kind of wish he was a bit more clear about whom he suspected, and I don't think he was "tunneling" Quote worse than some of the other tunnel wars that's been going on. I might have to read SB again or something, but he's not sticking out to me as being "noticeably bad" in any way and I have nothing against him.

Strege's walls are making my eyes kind of glaze over, but nothing particularly stands out as being scummy. I don't agree with his Rein vote (even though Rein really should post something content-related), but I can see his reasoning for it. Don't have problems with his claim or anything else right now either.

Also, I see Euklyd and SB's point about my concerns of scum being on the Eury wagon. Since Eury, Objection, and Prims all flipped town (and were the three biggest wagons on D1) I suppose there isn't a point in scum pushing Eury in particular over Objection.

I still don't like Shinori, and redirector is a role that could go both ways, so my feelings are unchanged here. I'd also be willing to vote Kay or Grass or Refa right now.

[Sunwoo]

I think I'm pretty much caught up now, and hopefully will not have to make another wall post like the above.

[Percivalé]

I noticed j00 is fearmongering a lot which is scummy. I think that's what bothered me before but wasn't too sure

Still wouldn't lynch poly or shinori. I also feel weird about manix because he made such a big deal about his role and then I don't remember him mentioning anything about it ever again but I probably missed something

[Grace]

@via: i mentioned that I idled at the start of the day. and after poly claims, i suggested that i could use my visit to prove poly's role. etc

[Grace]

*claimed

words