Serra or Lucius?

[Irysa]

I disagree with Irysa's notion of promoting Lucius early and have never suggested it, he likely kills the same stuff unpromoted as he does promoted and staves are almost totally useless from the period he suggests promoting Lucius to my suggestion of right before the desert, so it's pretty easy for him to hit 14-18 before the desert.

It's more of a way to illustrate that you can get a unit who does staffbotting and has good offence relatively early. I think at least he should wait till he has 12 Mag 13 speed to promote, because 18 mt 13 AS basically secures ORKOs on the vast majority of unpromoted enemy types throughout the game, but you're correct, you can certaily get away with delaying it because you don't really need staves for a while anyway. And given his chunky Mag growth, it's not that hard for him to reach that ORKO status without the promotion bonuses if you work on training him. However, he can start ORKOing just about anything if you promote him early, and the defensive bonuses (which allow him to escape OHKO status against enemies using stronger weapons) make it an option worth considering. Personally, I don't care very much about having a super strong Lucius, the main reason I wouldn't promote early is just to get more EXP on Guiding Ring users.

Except at the pace I was going in my ranked playthrough, I had a 19/2 Serra and a 16 Lucius. The only reason you "can't" keep using other units in ranked is because of an exp penalty, but then you're also arguing against one of two units that promotes and isn't impacted remotely close to this as the likes of Lucius. Really, I want you to look at this:

That's the point lol, if you go slow enough for Serra to get that much EXP then there's no real excuse for Lucius not at least MATCHING Serra's exp gain by attacking something at least once every turn, let alone getting a kill putting him 3 times as far ahead as anything Serra gets in one turn until Chapter 22. I also have no idea what the second sentence in this statement is even saying though.

- Lucius joins in chapter 17 and isn't gaining a level unless he was at like 90 exp from Lyn's and kills the armorknight from over the wall.

Wasn't counting this.

- 17x has limited slots for good units. Erk most likely has superior offense to Lucius here, so there goes your magic slot. You most likely want at least one decent swordie here (Lyn is who I used, but Guy, Raven, and any cavalier can also work). You also need a swordie to hold off the top if you're looking to clear this in five turns and get all the treasure and as much xp as possible. Serra isn't getting fielded here, and Lucius damn sure isn't.

Disagree. I deploy a Paladin (either Marcus who has taken the Dracoshield, a LHM Paladin, or promoted Lowen if he's made it to level 10), Raven, Florina and then have 2 spare slots. Pris is a decent choice, but not too important, and Lowen's a decent candidate to be fed the Damien kill if he's near promotion, but it's not hard to give Lucius a chance to fight. Raven goes top, Florina rescues Hector and does the visiting, Paladin activates the some of the enemies, Lucius shoots over their head for some kills. The structure of the choke makes this pretty safe. We both usually take 5 turns.

- I fielded both in 18 because Lucius had WTA on shamans. It wasn't enough to ORKO most of the shamans, and he could not ORKO anyone else, but he was durable against the shamans, so he was fine.

Depending on how many turns you want to take on this map (I think five is reasonable if you want to get the Pure Water, Whip and Guiding Ring, but the Guiding Ring can be difficult if you don't have another Paladin), there are lots of ways to go about handling it. However I go about it, a Paladin is killing the boss, I'm not waiting out the 11 turns. Lucius does fine at shooting over Lowen or Raven's heads through a choke and does decently vs the Shamans. If Lucius gets even 2 kills on this map he's already beaten Serra in EXP. You took the full 11 (technically 12) turns, I say 5 is very reasonable.

- 19 is full of high movement and ranged units that can easily kill Lucius. You can't send him to the right because he's hard countered by pegasus knights with Steel Lances and Javelins that he can't one round. You have to send him with your main force and just let him pick things off. There's enough deployment to use Serra alongside Priscilla; in fact, there is so much going on this chapter that I can't see why you wouldn't want to use both.

Again it depends how fast you want to clear. You can clear pretty quickly just by sending your Paladins to kill Uhai, and going slowly won't really increase the reliability of the kill given the tile he's on, his speed and his weapons. I think going for a quick clear here makes a lot of sense given you can otherwise just lose to random criticals whilst trying to connect hits on Uhai. Promoted Lowen or Oswin are the only units who really have a chance of not dying to a Killing Edge or Killer Bow critical, which sucks (on that note, screw the Luna on the boss of the previous map too). Anyway, in a relatively quick clear Lucius has no problem teaming up with other units to kill things near the starting position whilst the Paladins charge Uhai. This map should take about 5 or 6 turns unless you get unlucky, you took 9. Deploying 2 healers isn't that big a deal though, you're right, but Lucius should still be leading in EXP anyway given the Torch staff won't be obtained for a turn or two and he can definitely take some kills.

.

- 19x has a Magic Seal and is also full of Mages. Lucius is the worst caster to bring here.

Agreed, Canas is a much better choice for fast clears. However, Lucius's high resistance tends to have the mages gravitate to other units, so he can still kill other enemies like Knights and Brigands without affecting the chapter negatively. If he's made it to 11 Mag (avg level 10, rather ambitious unless Lyn Mode) he can sub for Canas in the rescue drop onto the mountain. The map shouldnt last much longer after Kishuna shows up anyway so Magic Seal is w/e. You took 9 turns, I take like 5.

- 20, I used Lucius specifically because I had an RN string that allowed him to crit the killer bow archer from over the wall, and then I took him to fight the mages that spawn in that small room. There are enough deployment slots and enough damage going out to field Serra and Priscilla together. Don't remember off the top of my head if I bought staves here, but I know I had a Barrier staff from the chest.

You're right, fielding both here is not a big deal. If Lucius is strong enough by now I have him kill Knights, but that's difficult for him to do alone without a promotion still (needs 13 Mag. On a quick note at 10/1, the extra Mag on promo let Lucius ORKO almost every enemy on the map!) so it's more likely he's significantly weakening Knights and Cavaliers for other units or taking kills from someone else's chip. He can as you say, fight the Killer Bow Archer through the wall on turn 1 EP, and the forest tile helps, plus it's early on, but IMO it's better to do stuff with the Knights first before fighting there. Getting to the Physic and Unlock Secret Shop here in a quick clear is pretty much not going to happen, since your Paladins should be able to cut a swathe through the enemies in the way to get to Hector to seize, and whoever else can help get Lyn or Eliwood to Legault to talk to him, then have him steal the Member Card. If you opt to get all the treasure via ferrying Matthew to the top left chests then you could tack on another 2 turns or so, but this chapter really shouldn't be going on longer than 9 turns, wheras you took 13.

- 21 is possible with one healer, but if I recall, I think even my Canas was doubling wyverns on this map. Lucius also was nothing special against the other casters and the pegasus knights. Although I fielded a magic-heavy team out of preference for spamming Torch and Barrier, I can potentially see an argument for not using Serra... for all of the like 6 turns this map should take.

An unpromoted Canas would need to have 15 speed to double all the Wyverns on this map, or 13 to double the slower ones. He doesn't reach these stats in his entire unpromoted lifetime on average, so you must have promoted him. Even so, he'd still have to have been at level 17/1 on average to do this, so he must have been pretty speed blessed. Comparatively 10/1 Lucius ORKOs all but the fastest Wyverns easily, and an extra 2 or 3 levels should let him nail the speediest ones, and put him into ORKOing all physical units on the map status bar a few high rolling Res Pegs (in fact, as I said before he's pretty much ORKOing all unpromoted physical enemy types for the rest of the game at average 13/1. Although again, he doesn't need to promote to be killing things unpromoted if he was being trained earlier because of his Mag growth). He could use Torch here to get some EXP too I suppose. The Monks are pathetic for any physical unit so the fact Magic users don't do that great against them is hardly relevant, this is a good training map for Fiora and your unpromoted Cavalier(s). The map can be cleared in more like 3 or 4 turns whilst getting all the items without it being terribly unreliable, so whilst it is nice to have a place to start using Torch and Barrier it won't last that long.

- 22, Serra gets access to Physic, which you can easily trade to her because Isadora is terrible and isn't doing anything else anyway. I fielded both Serra and Priscilla, as well as Lucius. Thanks to Ninian existing and the new staves you should have by now, Serra's experience gains are much higher, and the level lead that she absolutely should have on Lucius is going to be maintained. Think about this: Barrier is a sixth of a level, Physic is a fifth of a level, Heal is still a tenth of a level... and now Ninian exists. How can this possibly be worse than Lucius gaining like 8 experience for killing a wyvern - which mine was absolutely doing at a glance? Lucius cannot frontline against a melee unit, Thunder mage, or archer on this map because he's sitting on bad defenses, and although he's got ORKO potential, so do a lot of units thanks to double WTA from reaver weapons.

Yo, Isadora's not terrible, she can help get to Eubans quickly to end the map in 4 turns (lets you get all the treasure just in time too). I don't think Serra would have a level lead at this point if a player was playing more efficiently. As Horace pointed out, you're maxing out your time in defence maps and taking rather long on a lot of earlier ones too, and if we don't do that then Serra's EXP gain plummets. I can't be bothered to go check everything but I generously estimate Serra loses on average something like 50~60 EXP per map she's in in your playthrough compared to a faster one, so that's like nearly 6 point something levels of EXP lost for her by Chapter 23, putting her down to level 10, so Lucius definitely still has a significant lead.

- 23 is not an auto-win for Lucius. There are several units that can be fielded alongside him to do his job. However, you don't need to field two healers here, and Serra actually has merit. Did I mention that Ninian has low movement, and only two units can benefit from her dancing and still be fully functional... and one of those units has enough movement now to walk out and Physic whenever she's not using Barrier? That's almost half a level per turn.

Yeah and in a 5 or 6 turn clear she's still only going to get like 2 to 3 levels. It's still good, but she's still going to be behind Lucius in levels if you've not been sandbagging him. Lucius can definitely be level 13 by now, and more likely higher than that, plus (again) he preforms pretty decently with a promotion around about now, ORKOing stuff and being 2HKO'd, or even without (level 15 Lucius ORKOs nearly everything, lower levels nearly kill anything so sets up kills for units like Heath, also great).

Horace addressed the Warp concerns.

EDIT:

Ok, getting the A rank in Warp is doable then, but then if anyone can do it, why is this a big thing for Lucius? I realize that of the offensive casters, he's the best choice, but my question is that if we're not doing LTC, why does getting Lucius up to Warp matter to the point where it's an arguing point against Serra? That doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever when Pent and Priscilla exist anyway. If we're not doing LTC, then what are we doing that justifies not using Serra but somehow Lucius is so worth going after for a late-game where every other caster has something to offer over him anyway? If you mean a "casual" run, then Serra should absolutely be used over Lucius because Serra should absolutely have a level lead. If you mean something else, enlighten me.

Because Lucius has a really good Mag growth stat so without rigging, he'll probably have the largest Warp range in the game, even beating Pent if trained. Larger Warp range = larger strategic flexability. We can still use Warp to circumvent difficult parts of VoD or get people places in Light, and having multiple Warpers to do that most certainly helps. His Rescue Staff range for 28x can also be helpful. I mean just for a joke, Nino reaches 25 Mag at 20/20 average, which is something Lucius does at 20/11 or w/e equivilant (not that either is likely to happen but still). It's definitely trivial for him to get a total of 18 levels across the whole game to get to 20 Mag. Serra or Pris need to get like 30+ levels to do that, which is sort of difficult without playing slowly, even with maps like Battle Before Dawn, Unfufilled Heart and Sands of Time dragging out turncounts. Even just comparing to Pent's base Warp range for them gives Lucius a pretty big lead, he only needs like 15 levels wheras they still need about 30.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Irysa

[Baldrick]

If this is Serra vs. Lucius, then why wouldn't you want one healer vs. a 14th damage dealer?

What maps do you get 14 deployment slots? I'm sure by that point Lucius has promoted and can heal better than Serra can.

Lucius being "the best" combat unit for the desert is absolutely nowhere close to as important as being the only available healer at a time where even Hector takes damage. As a matter of fact, it's not even close to true. This is a gross exaggeration, and I am not sure if you honestly expect me to take it seriously.

Serra's earlygame utility (she wouldn't even be essential because vulneraries exist) doesn't mean you should use her in the long-term, which is the point of discussion. Matthew isn't automatically deployed before Legault just because he exists for longer.

[Brinzy]

I apparently made up the Canas thing. I actually watched my Chapter 21 and didn't realize he doubled pegasus knights, not wyverns. Oops. On slower turn counts, yes I took my time. It was my first time ranking the game, and I did not know how I would be on Experience points. Furthermore, I did not want to risk getting crit by bosses midgame and the like. I realize you are only pointing this out to demonstrate that Serra's level is relatively inflated in my version.

Either way, it looks like since we're playing at a speed that's half a notch below LTC and isn't ranked (while not considering OP's restrictions, because I'll never see why you'd want to play that long without a dedicated healer), I'll gladly concede Serra's levels being much lower, and I can see it potentially being lower than Lucius's. I think the argument in favor of Lucius being able to pick off relatively meaningless enemies to be superfluous to his existence, but I understand that Serra herself cannot do these things and that this is ultimately the argument. Of course, it also factors in things like level 10 promoted Lowen, pre-promoted Kent/Sain, and 10/1 Lucius... so clearly I'm not in the same realm here.

Yo, Isadora's not terrible

Take it back.

What maps do you get 14 deployment slots? I'm sure by that point Lucius has promoted and can heal better than Serra can.

Hyperbole. What I'm saying is that if we're assuming just Serra vs. Lucius, adding Lucius brings fewer tools than adding Serra because you already have plenty of other good combat units.

Serra's earlygame utility (she wouldn't even be essential because vulneraries exist) doesn't mean you should use her in the long-term, which is the point of discussion. Matthew isn't automatically deployed before Legault just because he exists for longer.

How is it that Vulneraries that take away a player-phase offense in these low turn clears can nullify Serra, but the existence of units that maintain strong offense, actually directly shave turns off chapters, and aren't paper-thin don't nullify Lucius? If we're trying to clear chapters as fast as we can, how is taking your turn to deliberately do no damage when you're otherwise not forced to do so a great idea? The analogy doesn't even remotely make sense, because 1) they're the same class, 2) they fill the exact same role to begin with, 3) they don't rely on experience points to do their jobs, and 4) Matthew's level lead on Legault does not mean anything because neither one is promoting.

I think my problem here personally is viewing arguments against mine as being on the same page, because some of the things you guys are making arguments for do not line up with each other, so it's tripping me up.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Brinzy

[Baldrick]

How is it that Vulneraries that take away a player-phase offense in these low turn clears can nullify Serra, but the existence of units that maintain strong offense, actually directly shave turns off chapters, and aren't paper-thin don't nullify Lucius?

It doesn't, I'm saying her utility isn't so great that her contribution is vital, which seems to be your argument.

If we're trying to clear chapters as fast as we can, how is taking your turn to deliberately do no damage when you're otherwise not forced to do so a great idea?

Because if you're going fast, Serra will probably not be in range to heal anyone who needs it. Giving up the player phase isn't a big deal, much of the work is done on enemy phase.

The analogy doesn't even remotely make sense, because 1) they're the same class,

Aren't we comparing them because they're both bishops post-promotion?

Edited October 26, 2015 by Dylan Thomas

[Brinzy]

It doesn't, I'm saying her utility isn't so great that her contribution is vital, which seems to be your argument.

It's more accurate to say that my argument is the little she supposedly contributes is more than what Lucius contributes.

Because if you're going fast, Serra will probably not be in range to heal anyone who needs it. Giving up the player phase isn't a big deal, much of the work is done on enemy phase.

If Serra is not in range to heal, how on earth is Lucius in range to attack things when they have the same movement? This is what I mean by marks against Serra magically not applying to Lucius even though logically they would.

If player phase isn't a big deal, then why are you defending a character who is almost as player phase oriented as an archer? Lucius hardly has an enemy phase with his atrocious concrete defenses and his so-so Avoid.

Last time I checked, for most parts of the game, you run up to a certain point on the map to form a chokepoint of sorts to draw in enemy fire. Say you've got a paladin one square ahead of Serra. Paladin moves 8 up and tanks everything, Serra moves 5 up. Next turn, Serra moves in range to heal said Paladin who might then continue running up or will stick around to clean up. If you want to argue that Lucius can sit around and clean up, then you cannot argue that Serra wouldn't be in range in such a scenario, especially considering Lucius is pretty much the least frontline character in this game.

Aren't we comparing them because they're both bishops post-promotion?

They're not the same class before promotion, which absolutely matters if you're not going to be using Priscilla.

[dondon151]

why wouldn't you use priscilla when she's strictly better than serra for all intents and purposes

fun story: i was going to use serra in chapter 23 in a revised 0% LTC because she had the extra mobility in the desert. it turned out that she had gotten so few chances to be deployed before then (because priscilla was always a better option and i never needed 2 healers) that she didn't even have C rank staves to use physic with.

so i deployed lucius instead and got chapter 23x LOL

Edited October 26, 2015 by dondon151

[Junkhead]

Oh yeah, base C-rank in staves while being able to fight competitively pretty much ought to be a fetish!

[Baldrick]

If player phase isn't a big deal, then why are you defending a character who is almost as player phase oriented as an archer?

Not a big deal for units that do their fighting on the EP. Lucius' EP, while not great, is better than Serra's so I don't know where you're going with this.

In LTC his main niche is as a Warper with high magic.

Last time I checked, for most parts of the game, you run up to a certain point on the map to form a chokepoint of sorts to draw in enemy fire. Say you've got a paladin one square ahead of Serra. Paladin moves 8 up and tanks everything, Serra moves 5 up. Next turn, Serra moves in range to heal said Paladin who might then continue running up or will stick around to clean up.

Nope.

The paladin runs ahead, your other units clean up. And that's not taking into account not all maps are perfectly linear and featureless; sometimes you fight on multiple fronts, often you fly over impassable terrain or past enemies without engaging them.

They're not the same class before promotion, which absolutely matters if you're not going to be using Priscilla.

Why would you ever deploy Serra over Priscilla?

[Quintessence]

Just as minor note: Physic is B rank. I also thought Lucius had insta Physic access right upon promotion; maybe because I had Micaiah as reference.

Anyways, I don't know why this gotten into so much depth. Lucius a better unit overall, if you're complaining about his combat, just throw him into a forest tile in Port of Badon and make him counter enemies right there. Also, I don't get how a slow paced run is a favorable argument for Serra when Lucius (and therefore, every unit) is favored by slow playing because you're getting more enemies through reinforcements and your units are getting more level ups overall; so that's not a strong point for Serra, it's rather a strong point for both, and in the end, it doesn't count for one or the other.

[Refa]

Lucius gains EXP at a faster rate than Serra (at least until she can use Physic staves), so it'd benefit him either way.

[Brinzy]

why wouldn't you use priscilla when she's strictly better than serra for all intents and purposes

Just basing this off OP's stipulations... otherwise this isn't a discussion.

Oh yeah, base C-rank in staves while being able to fight competitively pretty much ought to be a fetish!

It's not bad.

Not a big deal for units that do their fighting on the EP. Lucius' EP, while not great, is better than Serra's so I don't know where you're going with this.

Well, the point was that letting Serra heal someone should be better than having them use a Vulnerary. I don't recall talking about enemy phase, let alone making an argument out of it.

In LTC his main niche is as a Warper with high magic.

Clearly if this was about LTC, Serra absolutely would not be relevant late game.

Nope.

The paladin runs ahead, your other units clean up. And that's not taking into account not all maps are perfectly linear and featureless; sometimes you fight on multiple fronts, often you fly over impassable terrain or past enemies without engaging them.

You're ignoring or missing my point.

If Serra can't keep up with the team, Lucius can't keep up with the team. If Lucius can supposedly always be in range to do something, Serra can always be in range to do something. It doesn't matter how the terrain is laid out because they both have five movement.

Why would you ever deploy Serra over Priscilla?

Oh, the thing is, to avoid the boredom of having to go through the mandatory easy mode after I recently got the game again, I decided I'd do a little challenge run where I can only use the lords and the characters who showed up in Lyn's story.

Lucius a better unit overall, if you're complaining about his combat, just throw him into a forest tile in Port of Badon and make him counter enemies right there. Also, I don't get how a slow paced run is a favorable argument for Serra when Lucius (and therefore, every unit) is favored by slow playing because you're getting more enemies through reinforcements and your units are getting more level ups overall; so that's not a strong point for Serra, it's rather a strong point for both, and in the end, it doesn't count for one or the other.

I suppose with heavy RN abuse, Lucius will be fine. I would be shocked if he doesn't get one hit by like four enemies there.

About the slow paced run thing, I take it this is an argument against what other people have said, because I fully agree that it affects both of them relatively evenly, with Lucius getting more XP per kills later and Serra possibly making up an xp deficit with more chapters to Physic. That was what someone said to me to criticize my run.

Lucius gains EXP at a faster rate than Serra (at least until she can use Physic staves), so it'd benefit him either way.

In a game where Serra is being deployed because Priscilla isn't being used, Serra having a level lead on Lucius and monopoly on Torch and Barrier a few chapters before Physic, I really don't think Lucius is leading on experience. I just don't recall him gaining that much experience in my run on enemies.

[Refa]

If Lucius gets two kills every three turns, he'd gain EXP faster than Serra? I don't think ranked runs are a good metric (uh assuming your run was ranked, correct me if I'm wrong) because you have to sandbag Lucius and it probably benefits you to do things like glue Ninian to Serra.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Refa

[Junkhead]

Clearly if this was about LTC, Serra absolutely would not be relevant late game.

I agree, LTC would be a lame way to judge a character's performance, unless you're on a horse. In LTC, it's all about having a horse, even if said horse happens to have wings...and scales, sometimes.

[Quintessence]

How is it heavy RN abuse? Lucius can tank the Elfire mage fine and use a vulnerary next turn at a forest. The rest of the enemies have like sub 50 hit, pirates having 20s and 30s and the archer being the only threat due to higher hit and high crt. It is just a way to illustrate Lucius's utility (or potential utility, if you prefer such term).

[Shadow Mir]

How is it heavy RN abuse? Lucius can tank the Elfire mage fine and use a vulnerary next turn at a forest. The rest of the enemies have like sub 50 hit, pirates having 20s and 30s and the archer being the only threat due to higher hit and high crt. It is just a way to illustrate Lucius's utility (or potential utility, if you prefer such term).

There's the Swordslayer pirate too. Anyways, I agree that this is... not a smart move, to say the least.

EDIT: Just remembered that the Swordslayer pirate started at the bottom. Not that that makes me think it's any more of a good idea...

Edited October 27, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Paper Jam]

If Lucius gets two kills every three turns, he'd gain EXP faster than Serra?

It depends on the level of the enemies compared to Lucius' own level; if he's six levels higher than the enemies he's fighting (e.g. if he reaches level 7 in Lyn mode where most of the non-boss enemies are level 1), he'll only get 10 experience per kill, and thus gain experience slower than Serra.

I think the best thing about healers is that they don't have to worry about those diminishing returns until they promote.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Paper Jam

[Refa]

I thought we weren't assuming Lyn Mode, otherwise Lucius would have a significant level lead on Serra (might even be able to promote at 15ish right after Dragon's Gate).

[Jedi]

I agree, LTC would be a lame way to judge a character's performance, unless you're on a horse. In LTC, it's all about having a horse, even if said horse happens to have wings...and scales, sometimes.

Its all about combat and stave rank too, not JUST horses, not that you're too far off the mark.

It varies on the game though.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Jedi

[Refa]

I can think of very few units that are good normally but bad in an LTC run.

[Baldrick]

Obviously in a LM characters only challenge Serra will have an advantage, but that's a arbitrary restriction. I could declare I'm doing a no-staves run and conclude that Serra has no use whatsoever, but that is not a reflection on her actual value.

So tell me, is there a reason to ever deploy Serra over Priscilla when you don't have a rule that literally states "you cannot use Priscilla"?

[Florete]

Which is sandbagging Lucius. I mean even in that hypothetical scenario, Lucius probably ends up having more total contributions from the chapters he was in fighting before Serra anyway, and even if his combat does end up worse its still absoloutely fine until CoD.

Sandbagging Lucius? I did it because you suggested it. I don't think it's a good idea.

What.

Combat EXP results in faster growth than Staff EXP does until the higher rank staves come into play, and that's only going to be happening after Chapter 22 (maybe in it if you transfer them over to her I guess), and coincedentally Lucius does great in Chapter 23 too. Unless you slow down massively to let Serra stay even early on, she's playing catchup to Lucius for a while even after promotion. Serra's worse speed in combination with AS loss from tomes and her lower Mag stat mean she misses plenty of kills Lucius would get and has worse staff range than he would have. I mean, if we're taking an exorbitant turns or something to clear maps so Serra can stay even in levels, then Lucius inevitably gets more combat EXP too because the maps are taking longer.

Seriously, a level 20/1 Serra has about the same offensive prowess as a level 13 unpromoted Lucius. Serra has a huge gap to make up for the difference.

I don't think you realize what the experience gains are like in hard mode. Serra may look like she's gaining experience slowly, but it's at a constant pace that only gets faster, while Lucius' experience gains actually get slower over time. She's also almost certainly going to be at a higher level than him when he joins.

OP is asking about who's better for future HHM playthroughs, and doesn't frame that as "with Lyn mode only units".

Then my 2nd scenario applies and Serra still wins.

The general scenario of an average, less-experienced player doesn't work because such a player won't maximise their staff EXP and buy lots of Physics and crap to get Serra leveling quickly. If your category somehow encompasses that then I call bullshit, plus they could just as easily have decided to dump EXP into Lucius from the Arena or something to get him even farther ahead, and that's definitely a more common tactic that less experienced players use.

A less-experienced player isn't a moron, especially if they're playing on hard mode, which means they've already beaten the game at least once. I figured out by my 2nd run over ten years ago that healing constantly to level up my healers would be a good idea since I had a level 12 Priscilla at the final chapter as a result of only healing when I absolutely needed to. It doesn't take a genius to realize that healing at every opportunity, including the 1 HP after a level up, is smart.

Getting better staves is another matter, but Torch and Barrier can be seen in time to get, and a player who is on the internet asking for advice probably has access to secret shop locations. (Though I figured this one out by myself, too, since the floor tile for the shop with Physics is very obviously different from most. Maybe I'm just a natural)

But even if the player isn't good enough to get all those staves, I'd still recommend Serra. Actually, especially if they aren't that good, because that means they are that much more likely to be in dire need of healing at any given time, and Lucius is more likely to just get killed.

Lucius is absolute garbage in the arena, btw. Unpromoted units in hard mode trying the arena naturally have a difficult time, and Lucius is likely to be OHKOd without a Ninis' Grace boost. Besides, arena abuse helps Serra just as much, since you'll need her to heal those abusing. To her advantage, though, she isn't at risk of dying with this method.

Why is the rest of the team bad now because some units early promoted? Not every unit has to be making combat contributions constantly since this game facilitates dumping one or two units out front to fight a bunch of enemies on enemy phase, and doesn't really demand as much player phase precision use of all one's units. I mean 0% growths has been cleared, so prepromotes can carry pretty damn hard, so a slower playthrough with growths AND those units are absoloutely fine.

If I believed they were bad, I would have said they were bad. All I'm saying is that early promoting most units makes the game tougher later on than it needs to be. It's not worth the small immediate bonuses for most players.

"The easiest reccomendation" is not the same as "the better unit". I mean, even in the hypothetical world where Lucius requires this "calculated usage" to be effective, if he's the better unit, he's the better unit. He objectively contributes more.

I don't care which one is "the better unit." I care which one I would tell a person to use.

We're just hurling conjecture at each other at this point. I think both seem pretty likely, because if Serra's moving to heal units who are taking damage then she has to get close enough to the action that Lucius could have been roughly in the same area to take a kill.

Lucius has to actually get near enemies to do something. Serra can heal someone who then moves away to fight enemies. There's really no way to spin this in anything but Serra's advantage.

I don't think this is assuming expert level, but having a 19/2 Serra at Chapter 24 means you went slow enough that in a non Ranked playthrough that you could have turned almost anyone into a god if you kept using them (which Ranked doesn't let you do), so it's really moot and the difference becomes super negligble.

I don't quite get how having a 19/2 Serra means you went really slow...or you're ranked? But ranking does have some semblance of speed, so if it can be done in ranked, surely it can be done without assuming some super-slow play.

This is Serra vs. Lucius, not Lucius vs. everyone. While we're at it, why not make it entirely moot by saying Pent does both things a lot better than them?

That has already been stated, but he also doesn't exist for a while after them.

What does Serra do that's essential? Healing in Chapters 11-14 (some of the easiest chapters in the game with barely any reinforcements)? Yes, it is helpful that she heals (especially if you want to train scrubs), but it's not essential. Lucius being one of the best combat units in the desert is already more important than whatever Serra did. With HHM's limited slots, I'd rather deploy another combat unit over Serra.

How are chapters 11-14 some of the easiest in the game? This is when you have the most limited amount of units, some of whom are outright bad, and only very few of whom can take multiple hits, but will still need healing.

why wouldn't you use priscilla when she's strictly better than serra for all intents and purposes

This has been covered. A player can use Serra over Priscilla for whatever reason they want, from a Lyn mode units-only challenge to a simple personal preference for her character.

Let it be known once more that I fully agree with Priscilla being better than Serra and would recommend Lucius over Serra if Priscilla is in the picture (unless it's ranked, then still Serra). I argue Serra in this scenario because I assume Priscilla is not in the picture, and I assume Priscilla is not in the picture because I can't see the Lucius vs. Serra issue existing if Priscilla is already there.

I thought we weren't assuming Lyn Mode, otherwise Lucius would have a significant level lead on Serra (might even be able to promote at 15ish right after Dragon's Gate).

What.

Lucius gains maybe 3 levels from Lyn mode, if you limit experience to just a few units. LM experience isn't very high, and he only has one Lightning tome to work with.

[Sniper Knight]

About the EXP pace, if Serra promotes, she will have no problem gaining relatively fast EXP on PP and EP, whereas Lucius will be busy building his Staff rank on PP, something Serra doesn't have to do, and will be seeing very limited combat on EP since dropping him in a swarm of enemies that have ~50 hit on him is a fairly poor idea. Let me reiterate a fact that people seem to be missing- Serra does not have to build her Staff rank after promotion. Lucius will, unequivocally, be better before promotion. After promotion, however, his utility will decrease for a period, while Serra's will consistently increase.

[Carmine Sword]

The fact that Lucius has to build up staff rank while Serra doesn't isn't even that big of a deal since you can just have Lucius (Erk and Canas can do this too) spam staves in defense chapters and he'll easily reach A Staves by the time Warp is available. Lucius has better staff range than Serra does as well, since he has both a higher magic growth and a higher magic base.

[Baldrick]

Let it be known once more that I fully agree with Priscilla being better than Serra and would recommend Lucius over Serra if Priscilla is in the picture (unless it's ranked, then still Serra).

I argue Serra in this scenario because I assume Priscilla is not in the picture, and I assume Priscilla is not in the picture because I can't see the Lucius vs. Serra issue existing if Priscilla is already there.

EDIT: If that's the case, would you ever recommend Serra over Priscilla to someone who had no preference either way?

Edited October 29, 2015 by Baldo Scroll

[Refa]

How are chapters 11-14 some of the easiest in the game? This is when you have the most limited amount of units, some of whom are outright bad, and only very few of whom can take multiple hits, but will still need healing.

What.

Lucius gains maybe 3 levels from Lyn mode, if you limit experience to just a few units. LM experience isn't very high, and he only has one Lightning tome to work with.

Chapters 11 and 12 have little to no reinforcements (actually Serra would be pretty helpful if she existed in Chapter 11 because Marcus/Oswin don't exist) and are easily destroyed by him. Chapters 13 and 14 have weak reinforcements (even your non Marcus/Oswin units can ORKO some of them at base stats, and the others are axe users who get destroyed by anyone who can use a sword), with only 13x posing a problem and a real need for Serra (Marcus and Oswin are pretty powerful still but you probably need her if you want to get the village and maximize EXP gain).

EDIT Also in Chapters 12 to 14 (not counting 13x), it's generally a huge pain to impossible getting Serra to heal while not being in a position where she can get attacked herself, which kind of limits her usefulness even further.

I'm pretty sure you can get Lucius to around level 6 in LHM (assuming he's not killing bosses because there are better people for that). Lyn Mode enemies are so weak that he can get 3HKOed at times, and he ORKOes every single one of them (so about 17 kills if you use up his tome). Level 15 is probably too high of an estimate after Dragon's Gate, though; I haven't played HHM in forever.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Refa