Etrian Odyssey 2 Mafia - Game Over

[charlie_]

##Vote: eclipse

Last post was kind of a non-post imo, it said a lot but just defended Refa from early votes but didn't vote for anyone who you criticized, and you seem to be able to call BBM and possibly Shin out as scummy for it, but don't.

On another note, I'm sick atm so my activity might not be great.

[FleurDeGlace]

##Unvote, ##Vote: Radiant Dragon

tired and sheeping what Boron said in her last post

This feels bad. It feels too convenient to just say you're sheeping someone. I'm not sure about this site, but sheeping is generally frowned on when there is no contribution to the discussion. Even more so if you just blatantly announce that you are going to sheep.

Going to take a note of this for future days.

[FleurDeGlace]

##Vote: eclipse

Last post was kind of a non-post imo, it said a lot but just defended Refa from early votes but didn't vote for anyone who you criticized, and you seem to be able to call BBM and possibly Shin out as scummy for it, but don't.

On another note, I'm sick atm so my activity might not be great.

ISOing eclipse:

#78: RVS vote.

#87: Unrelated content and another RVS vote.

#104: Questions me a little over my Refa vote. Proceeds on to display a dislike of the votes on Refa but does not want to pursue anything. Makes a list of player names and nicknames (that makes his post seem longer than the actual game-related content) before deciding not to move his vote at all.

#107: Proceeds to post only a link in response to Flan that has no relevance to the game.

I find it suspicious that you have made four posts so far and not posted much actual content or tried to follow up much of what you dislike happening in the game.

@Shark Bait: I think you missed eclipse's last post.

##Unvote

##Vote: eclipse

Same case as with Radiant Dragon, I want to see more actual content and less voteparking since it seems like you're willing to votepark on Kopfjager than to follow up on your other cases.

[FleurDeGlace]

Scum reads on these players in this order right now: eclipse > Radiant Dragon >>>>> Refa >>>>>>>>>>> Shin.

More than one ">" sign means the read right after that is of a much smaller magnitude than the one before.

[FleurDeGlace]

Scum reads on these players in this order right now: eclipse > Radiant Dragon >>>>> Refa >>>>>>>>>>> BigBadMarshmallow > Shin.

More than one ">" sign means the read right after that is of a much smaller magnitude than the one before.

EBWOP.

[FleurDeGlace]

I should just blind myself!!

Can't believe I missed this post while typing out my post earlier.....:

I've never seen a Loved Mafioso before. Not that the role couldn't exist, mind you, but I wouldn't assume that the Loved is scum at this point.

I am not assuming, I just had that thought suddenly earlier. It can also be fair to assume that the Hated/Loved modifier does not exist and that that extra line in the rules was meant to test us on whether or not we would waste time speculating on those modifiers in our discussions.

I think it's better to just keep our options open at this point in time.

Sorry, attribute that to me being rusty. I voted for him because he seemed somewhat eager to jump-start a Refa bandwagon.

Ignore this part of my earlier post please:

EDIT (because of Post Preview): @Sangyul: I don't think anyone made any points about Shin starting a vote wagon on Refa at all. Where did you get that?

Also, how does Shin's vote seem like he was trying to start a wagon. It seemed more RVS-ish to me. Or, like Sangyul mentioned, more like a joke vote.

[eclipse]

It's like the last sentence in that third post doesn't exist (that's my response to both of you).

More posts != more content. I don't feel like posting unless it's worth my time, and most of it wasn't (if I'm posting about NICKNAMES and IRRELEVANT PAST GAMES, that means that the rest of you aren't doing much). As I'm neither Loved/Hated, I don't care about how any theoretical people handle it.

Now that stuff is happening, here's what I don't like:

- BBM's vote-hopping. He seems to be second after whoever makes a case. Made a note of it when it happened to Refa (but didn't think it was worth following at the time), and am paying more attention since he did it a second time.

- Fleur. That Refa vote didn't ping me, even if I didn't agree with the logic (the two votes before it looked like the end of RVS and something that I already noted). Then she pulled what BBM is doing, twice in a short amount of time.

The other thing that is weirding me out about Fleur (now that I'm reading her ISO) is this. You've either played the game or you haven't, and those posts speak of two very different levels of experience. I see no benefit behind town trying to look clumsy, initially. First-time scum, on the other hand, benefits from appearing inexperienced.

##Unvote

##Vote: Fleur

BBM needs to do more than plop down votes after someone else does. However, my role doesn't allow me to vote two different people at once, and Fleur's here right now. If I didn't mention you, that means that you're not worth my time yet.

[eclipse]

. . .and there goes Fleur. Can't vote twice, so this will have to do.

FoS: BBM

[Sunwoo]

To be fair, I only said it seemed like only a subtle defense. As Refa said, this is not something to be concerned about until or if Flan flips.

Again, I'm not quite sure why people are reading Shin's post as a defense of Poly in the first place, as I noticed in my previous post. Even if Poly flips scum, I'm not sure if this "subtle defense" that may not even be a defense at all is something to really that'll be very telling on Shin.

I think that Refa stood to be in a position where she could easily jump into voting Flan or removing her vote from him easily, which I do not like.

Refa's vote actually looked like a lot of waffles to me, and I can't say I saw how it was "opportunistic".

I'm not seeing the problem with eclipse right now. I mean, if she continues to hold onto her RVS vote on Kopf while other things are happening while commenting on those things, then I'd have a problem. But considering the time that her posts were made and when stuff started happening, I don't have any issue with her.

[FleurDeGlace]

It's like the last sentence in that third post doesn't exist (that's my response to both of you).

The thing is that the thread had moved a lot by that time that I think you could have made a post to move your vote over to someone else by that time. Instead you chose to beat around the bush and state that you did not need to move your RVS vote. I think that would be okay in RVS but a lot of people were already having opinions by that time in the game that I think you could have moved on from your RVS vote.

- Fleur. That Refa vote didn't ping me, even if I didn't agree with the logic (the two votes before it looked like the end of RVS and something that I already noted). Then she pulled what BBM is doing, twice in a short amount of time.

You could say that it looked like the end of RVS so I don't see why your vote had to stay on an RVS target at that point.

I agreed and followed the logic on Sangyul's and Shark Bait's votes but I added on to their discussions with some points of my own. That's not the same as BigBadMarshmallow stating that he was going to sheep.

The other thing that is weirding me out about Fleur (now that I'm reading her ISO) is this. You've either played the game or you haven't, and those posts speak of two very different levels of experience. I see no benefit behind town trying to look clumsy, initially. First-time scum, on the other hand, benefits from appearing inexperienced.

Can I call some bullshit on this? Voting someone because of differing levels of experience when you have possibly a stronger read on another player(s) is bad.

Not to mention, I believe I mentioned in the Mafia Headquarters that I have had played Mafia before, just not on SerenesForest. I know my way around the game but I've stated also that I do not know the culture in SerenesForest.

Link: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=44242&p=2917898

I did not stumble or try to appear inexperienced in that first linked post. OMGUS is not a term that I normally used. I came across that term from Refa's post and Googled it. Same with the term RVS from the same post. There were no clear definitions of what OMGUS could refer to which is why I was unsure in its usage.

eclipse does look better though, now that he has posted some reads and moved her vote from an RVS one. I am still keeping my vote on him as I do not like his vote change and I do want some elaboration on them.

Also, regarding being unable to vote twice, I don't think most players can vote twice so I find it weird that eclipse has to keep mentioning that he can't vote twice. If he has scum reads on two players, he should decide which one of them is scummier and commit to that vote and not sit on the fence on both of those players that he finds scummy.

[FleurDeGlace]

Again, I'm not quite sure why people are reading Shin's post as a defense of Poly in the first place, as I noticed in my previous post. Even if Poly flips scum, I'm not sure if this "subtle defense" that may not even be a defense at all is something to really that'll be very telling on Shin.

Point taken.

Refa's vote actually looked like a lot of waffles to me, and I can't say I saw how it was "opportunistic".

Do you mean this definition of waffle?

If you do, then I would say that that is what I find opportunistic, that she placed herself in a position where she could go either way without much consequence later on. Such that she can bounce her vote in and out easily towards the end of the day.

That is pretty similar to eclipse's stance between BigBadMarshmallow and I too.

[Sunwoo]

Do you mean this definition of waffle?

If you do, then I would say that that is what I find opportunistic, that she placed herself in a position where she could go either way without much consequence later on. Such that she can bounce her vote in and out easily towards the end of the day.

Well, by waffle I mean that he made a statement suggesting something but seemed to lack conviction in it himself. Although I still would hesitate to call that behavior "opportunistic" myself right now, because I can't see it as opportunistic. (Refa's a dude, and eclipse is a girl.)

[Grace]

Votals The First

Radiant Dragon (3): kirsche, Sangyul, BBM

eclipse (3): Shinori, SB, FleurDeGlace

Shin (2): Green Poet, Radiant Dragon

FleurDeGlace (1): eclipse

SB (1): Elieson

scorri (1): Refa

Xinnidy (1): scorri

BBM (1): Flan

Refa (1): Shin

Not Voting (2): Xinnidy, Kopfjager

There are 60 hours, 18 minutes left in the day. It takes 9 to hammer, 5 to deadline lynch.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Curly Brace

[Shin]

Refa's logic seemed more like a vague guess rather than anything definite. Whilst it was probably to spark discussion, it's interesting that our colonel's made an association between Mr Puddingface and I already. Green's vote doesn't seem particularly baseless, I suppose it makes sense to vote on something rather than nothing, although I'm not convinced about the strength behind it.

However, RD seemed to want to take it to a whole new level, actually giving my silliness some sort of credibility! It looks like it's trying to capitalise on the vote than was already on me to get something going. "See where this goes" is a pretty bad reason, maybe I'll be going on holiday to Hull? Just kidding, Hull's a horrible place! The late reason given because "rusty" was pretty bad, I was the first to vote Refa and everyone had established that it wasn't a bandwagon - which he made no reference of at all before

eclipse is pulling some really bizarre meta on Fleur. I've played loads of mafia games and still have no idea what OMGUS, FOS or LYLO mean. I don't think not knowing mafia terminology shows a skill disparity. I'm also sure her "scum buddies" would tell her in the QT if she needed to know.

Scumwise I'm leaning RD >> eclipse >>>> Refa > Green

TLDR: RD pulls a vote out of nowhere without justification, only provides a reason when asked and said reason was clearly not the case. Some other people are a little scummy too.

##unvote

##Vote: Radiant Dragon

[Grace]

Probably need a temp sub for Poly. Contact me via PM if interested.

[Xinnidy]

Hum de dum dum-

Right, hmm.

##Vote:Xin

Clearly reappearing after having been promised a scum slot.

Drats, curse you, sco- oh wow it seems we're kinda out of RVS? Clearly I've been very present.

Refa no why. Well, I didn't agree with your point toward Shin and Poly, while it didn't ping me, but you get brownie points for kicking away RVS, yet that defence has some of the weirdest things to come off your mouth... fingers(or feet, I don't judge), so far. "It's not opportunistic if I didn't vote Poly." sounds horrible, you're providing suspicion on somebody's actions yet because you didn't vote you shouldn't be seen as opportunistic, but rather wary or something else? That's the closest I can interpret that sentence to imply, because I don't think it was an RVS prod, and it's still not right, like... it can be implied both ways, even if you say you didn't vote, but that's also part of how the game is. I felt you had to hold your argument and commit to it or verbally drop it off, defending it by saying it's not opportunistic isn't proving much at all. It seems strong but there isn't a grave issue to defend against to begin with. That does mean I disagree with Fleur's initial suspicions on Refa.

And... chainsaw defence? It's a bit hard to take your suspicions seriously with them still acting like RVS from the posts you picked on. Isn't pulling suspicion on both of them for defending one another after suspecting they were being reactionary counter-intuitive, too? I think that discredits and makes your chainsaw defence argument too graspy, even for this early. At the very least, you admitted to the RVS part, but that still leaves some suspicion in my radar.

Also, from your old post, how is Shin reactionary in the same vein Poly is? At least, to be called out in the same post. Poly was shin's first vote/post really early in the game too, did you think it was OMGUS?

I can't understand people voting Shin because he had so little content, but they seem to adopt the same suspicion Refa had in that part. Considering both of them had at least a small word against Refa's suspicions, this feels eh...

Shin trying to jump-start a wagon would at least imply he's going to gun some logic against Refa so that other people would follow, didn't it? That didn't quite happen, so your post doesn't seem very coherent. At all.

You defended Shin and Poly because of timestamps before... mostly only poly now that I look back, would you agree to Shin being reactionary? Also, what do you think of Poly now?

These posts contradict themselves though, going from assuming the shin post was shenanigans to not being shenanigans. I can buy the lack of confidence from general attitude, but you should have used that to press shin some questions --if it interests you, build up on it. You also went from questioning Refa's point to embracing it for this without giving much of an explanation, other than your lack of confidence in reads.

Vote: Green Poet

Confidence shmofidence. While I can understand the struggles of being new to the game, I think you had some opportunities close to you that you didn't bite, and chose to defend by lack of confidence instead. Which can be an easy way out of most arguments.

Also:

Should we be claiming these modifiers (or lack of them) at the start of the game? Like on one hand (regarding Hated here), there's a chance for a surprise hammer, but it could really screw us over at LYLO. I dunno what to think of loved tbh. Thoughts?

This is important, generally it's a good idea to inform people. Not telling usually doesn't benefit the town ever, as far as I know.

[i am the best at making short, to-the-point posts.]

[Xinnidy]

Derp formatting.

##Vote: Green Poet

[charlie_]

"See where this goes" is a pretty bad reason, maybe I'll be going on holiday to Hull? Just kidding, Hull's a horrible place!

fuck you shin

Yes eclipse, I saw the end of that post, and I didn't like it. Earlier in it it looked like you had genuine problems with the play of some people wrt Refa votes so why you didn't consider them voteworthy confuses me. Your BBM case is also really weak to me, pushing someone for votehopping when it was 8~ hours into the game doesn't mean anything, and that was only his second vote in the game. You could've made an argument that it was scummy due to being lazy maybe (even though I feel like it's just null laziness, and that scum would be trying harder) but just calling it a votehop is really weak imo.

Speaking of Refa, I don't understand the "I think Refa is scum because he didn't do X" comments, it's attacking him for being able to do something, rather than something he's actually done, and leaving your options open at such an early stage in the game isn't out of the ordinary. On the other hand, I don't like his early attacks on Shin/Poly, they seemed really forced and reminded me of his Prims vote early in the game, like he felt obligated to get some sort of content out to look like he was contributing.

I feel like Fleur is just jumping all over the place and basically whenever someone else comes up with a case they seem to go "oh, I agree, that's definitely scummy!" and replaces her old suspicion with it pretty quickly. Keeping my eye on her for now.

RD is null right now. Vote stays on eclipse for now.

[Prims]

they seemed really forced and reminded me of his Prims vote early in the game

yeah people should really stop trying to lynch non-players

[FleurDeGlace]

To be fair, I didn't replace my old suspicions. I just got another stronger scum read from another player.

Scum reads on these players in this order right now: eclipse > Radiant Dragon >>>>> Refa >>>>>>>>>>> BigBadMarshmallow > Shin.

More than one ">" sign means the read right after that is of a much smaller magnitude than the one before.

EBWOP.

That's a list of my current scum reads.

[charlie_]

yeah people should really stop trying to lynch non-players

i meant early in mlp you gay

@Fleur, it replaced them as your top suspicion pretty much every time which I still find odd.

[FleurDeGlace]

@Fleur, it replaced them as your top suspicion pretty much every time which I still find odd.

I concur to this point. I can only say that their posts made me fellow at the thread and think things through. For example, ISOing eclipse to check your point. It was only then that I found them scummy (with the new information obtained).

[FleurDeGlace]

@Fleur, it replaced them as your top suspicion pretty much every time which I still find odd.

I concur to this point. I can only say that their posts made me relook at the thread and think things through. For example, ISOing eclipse to check your point. It was only then that I found them scummy (with the new information obtained).

EBWOP.

[Zkirsche]

Rejoice you wretches, for the glorious master Shinon has returned.

First of all, real mature of you guys to pick on the newbies. Trust me, I hate these little whelps more than most yet these arguments almost bring me to tears. Not really, that's just a figure of speech. Must remember to be clear for all you simpletons.

[spoiler=These cases are bad]

I feel like Fleur is just jumping all over the place and basically whenever someone else comes up with a case they seem to go "oh, I agree, that's definitely scummy!" and replaces her old suspicion with it pretty quickly. Keeping my eye on her for now.

Where? Believe me when I say I don't miss much, so it matters when I can't find examples of her doing this. Her eclipse case looks pretty original and lots of other times she has began unique attacks of her own such as with #127.

but you should have used that to press shin some questions

The question for Shin is clearly "Why did you defend Poly" and that is implied in the vote. Read between the lines, woman!

You also went from questioning Refa's point to embracing it for this without giving much of an explanation

If you can buy the lack of confidence then you can buy quickly ceding points.

[spoiler=Mod!scum]

The other thing that is weirding me out about Fleur (now that I'm reading her ISO) is this. You've either played the game or you haven't, and those posts speak of two very different levels of experience. I see no benefit behind town trying to look clumsy, initially. First-time scum, on the other hand, benefits from appearing inexperienced.

Clearly looking at Basil Brush levels of logic here, guys. Getting nothing from a reread does not necessarily indicate any kind of level of experience. Experienced players can still miss things, and you yourself even complained about not being able to find much to talk about:

if I'm posting about NICKNAMES and IRRELEVANT PAST GAMES, that means that the rest of you aren't doing much

Talking about nicknames and irrelevant past games is padding and gives the impression of someone who has contributed a lot when you actually haven't. People skim. When people skim your ISO there're going to see these walls and go "oh look Basil Brush did a lot at the start of the game" when you actually did jack shit. Nothing gets past these eyes of mine, I'm onto you.

However, my role doesn't allow me to vote two different people at once, and Fleur's here right now.

Are you voting Fleur just because she is around or is she your most major scumspect?

BBM's vote-hopping. He seems to be second after whoever makes a case.

Since you seem ignorant of this fact, BBM's voted 2 people this entire game. That's a breath-taking total of one votehop. You also implied that he was following someone with his Refa vote when his Refa case was unique and noone else had really made a Refa case yet. Really now, you can do better than this.

If I didn't mention you, that means that you're not worth my time yet.

Look at miss high-and-mighty ignoring half the game. Well, time to come off your high-horse missy before I plant an arrow in your skull.

##Unvote

##Vote:eclipse

For those too lazy to read the above, all her cases are about as good as Gatrie's taste in women. Now to discuss people other than the whelps and the scumlord.

BBscuM has done a total of squat today. Ignoring even more than eclipse. Writing off a major discussion as just a chainsaw defence not worthy of his time and then sheeping Boron but not bothering to respond to RD's recent explanation. Hit the sack and get that peanut-sized brain of yours working and get some more opinions/thoughts on the game.

Let's see where this goes

This is a perfect reason to vote someone btw as everything ED1 is a reaction test. Of course, it didn't turn out to be a reaction test, but your original attack itself wasn't necessary. Actually hearing his reasoning makes me uncomfortable, though, as I think he should've pressured Shin about seeming "eager to jump-start a Refa bandwagon" in his original post and the logic itself is super flawed.

Thinking eclipse > BBM = RD for now.

pedit: It appears Fleur has already defended herself. Good, I like newbies with initiative.

[BBM]

Fleur, why is Eclipse not contributing worse than RD? A few posts not contributing in RVS don't mean much. It sucks that people don't always try to push things along in RVS, but the fact is that townies as well as scum don't try as much that early on when there isn't anything happening. As such things go, we've had a pretty short RVS actually.

Eclipse is correct that my Refa vote was purposely wagoning. In RVS, unless something really sticks out to me as bad, I try to vote someone who already has a vote or two on them for reactions. The RD vote was voting for something I found suspicious despite someone already having pointed that out. RD's justification of his Shin vote, that Shin seemed eager to start a wagon, when Shin was the first person voting for Refa, didn't make any sense. I wasn't going to avoid voting for him just because I didn't find anything new to add in. Kirsche- RD's recent explanation was what I voted him for. >_>

Eclipse harping over Fleur not knowing exactly what OMGUS means despite having shown an okay understanding of mafia doesn't really impress me. I didn't know what OMGUS and WIFOM were until I'd played several games, and stuff like "sheeping is bad" is generally picked up far before the exact meanings of different terminologies. In fact, the notion that sheeping is always bad is probably an even stronger indication of being new to mafia.

I don't like the last sentence of that same post either. It's only one sentence so it's not really padding, but really, what's the point of saying that the people she hasn't spoken about yet don't interest her? People get that she's not going to have something to say about all 15 other players 8 hours into the game.