Shining Force 2 Mafia: Game Over

[Elieson]

Bing boong.

There are just about 11 hours left in Night Phase 1.

[Paulina]

First of all, a general thank you to everyone posting walls, especially Kay (I can't believe anyone is subbing with all the crap in D1 – you have a heart of gold ._.). It shows you guys took the time to try catching up with this out-of-control train, and I appreciate it.

Snike called me out in both of his recent walls (and pointedly said he felt like Kellam -- lol ), so I want to reply to him directly. I'm spoilering this because it's kinda big, and probably not relevant for anyone who has to suffer through reading War and Peace Unabridged this thread. If anyone does bother reading it, context: I had listed him on my scumlist in an earlier post, and he wanted some more clarification.

1) It appears you completely ignored my case on marth, as well as my argument with BBM. Don't do that, then turn around and tell me I haven't been scumhunting. I am aware a good bulk of my posts have been role spec but seriously, this feels like a misrepresentation. On another note, I don't do the question thingy unless it's absolutely necessary IMO. Just a personal preference for pressing people over asking a copious amount of questions.

I'm going to go into the argument with BBM in a second, but first, regarding your vote on Marth. I didn't like how you voted him first, and then provided the reasoning behind it an hour later (this wasn't a definitive ping though, just a little weird). I thought your actual case was fine; you gave us clear, worked-out reasoning, which I appreciated, but it was a bit thin (we got a little over two lines, and you never mentioned it again). I don't think this was a big bone to pick, tbh.

2) Don't list a person who hasn't even posted d1 and who was prodded as a scumread. That sort of suggests that inactivity implies being scum, and that's not true in most cases, so it's a bad habit to get into.

This felt like nitpicking to me. I put him at the very bottom of my list, and my clarification was intentionally short and trite ("Please, post.") I thought it sounded more like frustration than a legitimate scumread, but you're right – I probably should have included it outside the actual list. So, if this was just friendly advice for a new player, thanks.

-@Paulina: :/ I'm still less than amused by my prior remarks, but enough of that for now. I think you're missing/downplaying the extent of BBM's overreaction, so I advise you to start reading from the second half of this post on, instead of just reading the ISOs individually. That way I don't have to feel like Kellam anymore.

I reread the thread up to page 22, or about six pages after your link. I hope that was enough? In terms of your and Eclipse's argument with him, I still can't find a marked overreaction. These were the only posts where I thought he sounded noticeably angry, with my reads.

((This is being bolded, but it's 7:30 am, so idgaf.))

@Eclipse- So the only things that have happened D1, according to you, are role deleter spec and Bizz being annoyed about a role deleter after she said she had a scummy role? What about the fact that Marth had 3 serious votes on him (until Snike unvoted)? You didn't comment on any of the things that Snike said about anyone either, other than that "you could see his logic". And good job misrepping ME. Notice how I put "IIRC" before I said that you claimed a scummy role? It was because I wasn't sure and didn't have the time to go and read your ISO, because I've been studying for the past four hours while taking breaks every 15-20 minutes to check the thread.

@Snike- I don't see much of a difference between what you said and what I summarized it as being. Calling Sho out for not giving reasons for a sheepy vote IS the same as calling him out for coasting. Saying you don't want to look TOOOO hard at Helios is basically the same as saying you have mixed feelings against him. Obviously I used the words "mixed feelings" to show the similarity between your points about everyone, but the point was that you took both sides about him and called him out for something at the same time as saying he had a good point about something. And newsflash: that IS having mixed feelings about someone.

Yes, he did sound upset here, even using a few all-caps. I can see how this might look like a scummy reaction to pressuring. However, the posts he was responding to are very relevant. With regard to his reply for Eclipse, she hadn't responded to his earlier questions at all, aside from "Obviously I don't think it's important. Do I look like I give a shit about the roleblocker?" (And note, he asked more than that.) She also called him scummy for questioning her, which is utterly ridiculous (I'm going to stop here, because I've already written two huge walls about her play).

Regarding his response to you, the argument between you guys was pretty confusing. I admit, I don't understand much of it. It felt like a he said-she said thing. He said your wall was crap, you broke it down and explained why it was relevant. One post was literally "Here's what I said, here's what you said I said," with a bunch of spoilers. A lot of it felt like semantics, like to the extent you considered Helios suspicious. You guys had a whole discussion about the phrase "take a hard look at him." I.e., you said he was somewhat suspicious, but didn't want to take a "hard look" at him, BBM said you were waffling, you explained how you didn't want to take "TOOOO" hard of a look at him. This went back and forth, and as I was reading this at 3 am, I ended up pretty spent. From what I saw, it just looked like a heated exchange; neither of you sounded particularly scummy/town.

This is taking both sides. How can you not see that saying somebody's tone is inappropriate and then saying they have a good point is taking both sides of the argument? And yeah, scum can have good points, but that doesn't change the fact that calling someone out like that at the same time as saying they have a good point allows you to backtrack after a mislynch and wash your hands clean. And yeah, I saw your point about there being bigger fish to fry. That doesn't change the validity of my point, which ISN'T just that you had "mixed feelings" about everyone. The point, I repeat, was that you're setting yourself up to backtrack after a mislynch.

@Eclipse- Good job misrepping me again. Like you said, you don't think other things are that important. So why is that? Why didn't you find any of the Marth discussion important enough to comment on at all? For that matter, why do you think questioning someone you are slightly suspicious of (Bizz) is less important than asking Prims why he announced how many abilities he has? If people aren't interested in lynching Bizz today, they're most certainly not interested in lynching Prims today.

The fact that people are either completely twisting my words or misunderstanding my points while accusing me of doing that to them is highly frustrating, so I probably won't be back for a few hours.

((Bolding this entire section -- are you srs SF?))

Yes, he was starting to sound pretty angry here (more caps, bold, italics). If you thought this was an overreaction, that's fine. To me, your half still sounds like a discussion that escalated into a heated argument -- i.e., no scum vibe. Again, the conflict you guys were debating was pretty hard to follow (very semantic, what you said I said, etc.), so please point out if I missed something here. Cliff's Snike's Notes are greatly appreciated.

His anger at Eclipse wasn't undue in the slightest. She had responded to his first post earlier (these BBM posts were in chronological order). She wrote off all of his questions, reiterated she "obviously didn't think they important," and put a vote down on him. Again, I'm not going to go into the case against Eclipse, because it's already produced two walls.

All this being said, do I think BBM is completely legit? No. He brazenly brought up cultspec early in D1 regarding why we shouldn't trust Sho, which was a big red flag for me. Elie has said there is no cult in the game. I'm not sure if BBM knew that at the time, but even if he didn't, it felt scummy as hell in-context with the thread. I'm not sure about the votehop on Marth. I thought it looked really bad at first, since the only justification he provided was "I think Snike's case is a good one," and it was directly after his cultspec post. That being said, he implied it was a pressure/reaction vote, and it was only three hours into phase. I don't think it was a legitimate lynch vote, so it ultimately felt like a null tell. (Although he characterized this as a "serious vote," so I really am ??? here.) I might not be comprehending all the implications behind the votehop, so please point out anything important. In general, BBM's been an active player and his material is usually clear and well-explained, which I appreciate. Also, he's confirmed announcer at this point, which is worthless even if he's scum.

TLDR: I have a null read on BBM, mainly due to cultspec D1 and being an active player and frequent scumhunter. I'm not seeing a damning overreaction between you, him, and Eclipse. I hope that sums up everything. If I missed something important, I would appreciate it if you could link the post and just summarize the problem. Tbh, I think this should probably wait until we're deciding serious lynch candidates, to cut down on the crap for anyone playing catch-up.

Just for you, Paulina:

Read this. Now read it aloud. One more time. Still think that was a random vote? This person got it:

I don't think it's worth my time to explain my logic when it's already out there. Stuff like this is why I'm not taking this vote against me seriously.

No. That is false. I take complete umbrage with this statement. Having people defend you is fine, but that doesn't count toward your town factor. That's riding coattails, which is just as easy/convenient for a scum player. I want to hear your rationale, and your defense of your stances. That does not fly with me, at all.

That being said, I've noticed you have expounded on a few of your thoughts recently (your analysis of a possible scum!Proto here was great – you stated several definitive ideas, and gave the rationale/reasoning behind each of them). If meta is right, and this aloof reservation is just your play style, I really am at a loss here. At this point it's starting to feel like a personal dispute, so I'm not going to keep beating this horse. You probably aren't up for the lynch any time soon, and I don't want this to blind me from other reads.

I hope you don't take offense to this, but unless it's a part of a post restriction/role restriction I don't see any other reason why you have to sound like that when addressing people in a mafia game. Reading your post before I had to duck out (for unrelated reasons) made me super tense and while I think you're town I hope you tone it down a little bit, unless you can't by threat of modkill. Paulina didn't address you in a hostile manner at all, and BBM even apologized--I apologized to NNR too because he interpreted my tone as harsh when I didn't mean to sound that way. If it doesn't improve I might have to avoid reading your posts and I don't want to do that.

If your passive-aggressiveness isn't linked to a post restriction I'm probably not even going to read your postgame explanation, sorry.

This/10.

Somehow, throughout this entire thing, I haven't touched upon etiquette. Pretty ironic, since I consider myself among the more polite people here.

There is no need to make Mafia personal. This is a game. I know this is a crazy idea, but it's actually supposed to be fun. –I know, right? If someone doubts your play or questions your moves, there is no excuse to insult their character. That is pathetic. And beside being a scumtell, it makes you look like a small human being.

My top choices for the vig shot are Proto and Neko. Proto has had so much flavorspec it's silly, and pages with several of his posts feel bloated and deliberately distracting. Neko said something that majorly pinged me, here. He said it was multiball so definitively; this sounds like a slip. When asked to defend that statement by Blitz, he said "Because it's a good theory." Yeahh no.

Hoping this is the last time I write another catch-up post. It's already after 10 am. How does this keep happening. I log on in the evening, and fsr there are so many day posters. Don't you people have school/jobs/etc. (inb4 timezones) I have an anthropology essay due Thursday, so I might be pretty busy until Friday. I'll still be keeping up to date in the thread and responding as best I can, though.

[Percivalé]

I'm on spring break because fuck yeah trimester schools

I still don't think that the Proto heavy flavorspec alone makes him scummy; I still find it reasonable because he's probably just unfamiliar with how to play. It would be different if he outright said "I don't know what I should be doing" but at least he's been trying and I think the people suspicious on him solely for "all he's been doing is flavorspeccing" are looking for an easy reason to be suspicious of him. I need to reread his posts because I missed a few after I took my exam but yeah if someone is doing nothing but rolespec/flavorspec then that's dumb but unless their other content is scummy too it just doesn't seem enough of a reason to suspect someone

[Elieson]

Phase End.

Results going out, then Opening flavor

[Elieson]

It's a new day for the Shining Force. Blobs of ooze need defeating, as so random skeletons and giant rats. Some Force members are contemplating the death of Tyrin, and how he was almost trusted as one of them. Other's simply plan their battle tactics and are shopping for new equipment in the Deals section of the Weapons store.

However, one thing is on everyone's mind though. It's that godawful Kiwi and his annoying morning announcements.

"Speaking tires me...but here goes.

...Yeah I have nothing witty to say, since none of you appreciated last phase's blast to the past. So listen to some

!

Link better work this time, Elie!

PS: This is BBM because apparently some of you thought I didn't make it clear enough last time?"

Yea apparently I screwed up a link to something in the last one. I editted it, but apparently I can't do that right. /GG Elie.

As you all prepare to flounder about the continent of Parmecia once again, on the hunt for treasure, new recruits, and a plethora of Gold carried by random wild animals living in caves and trees, something else strikes the attention of the Force.

Where's Frayja?

Oh, he was struck down by the gods for abandoning Moun, or something.

Umm....then who's that in the barracks, hanging from the ceiling?

There, hanging from the bedroom ceiling of the HQ barracks was noneother than the noose'd corpse of...

Dear Shining Force, I'm Nova from Shining Force 1. I hid in your ceiling to learn how to be a better Advisor for my generation's game, but as it turns out, I lost my footing and fell, catching my neck in this rope. How did I write this letter and predict my own accidental death? I dunno, ask Elieson.

What the....?

That means no one of value died tonight.

Well, Frayja got killed by God.

Yea, that doesn't count though.

Day Phase 2 has now started, and will end on 2/16/13 at approximately 1500 GMT-5 (3 PM CST, 4PM EST, etc etc etc)

[scorri]

Ok, interesting. No deaths. That means: Bal! Who did you target?

[scorri]

Ok, more stuff:

People Mancer accused of being scum: Helios, Manix, BBM, eclipse (kept promising to ISO but never did), Paulina, Xinnidy, maybe some others.

Now, he went after BBM hard. So unless that was super bussing, I doubt that BBM is scum.

However, some of the others, especially Manix and Xinnidy, he kinda mentioned briefly, didn't really back up why he thought they were scum, and then carried on as if nothing had happened. Same thing with Helios actually. I think keeping an eye on some of these might be useful.

I'm willing to drop my Proto case for now and hopefully he'll give me some more material that isn't flavor spec to work with soon.

For my vote currently though, I'm going to

##Vote: Marth

Now, I know this will sound weird, but hear me out.

-Marth had been under some suspicion early on. Managed to get it off him, but that doesn't mean people completely dropped it.

-Mancer is roleblock, but instead of just claiming townsided roleblock, he claims some completely random role.

-Marth appears and claims to have scanned Mancer the previous night, showing that Mancer was roleblock.

Now, it seems odd that Marth would reveal like that even though Mancer was likely to be lynched anyways. In addition, it just seems too convenient to me that someone would make a horrible fake claim like that only to have been scanned by the town sided role cop the previous night when we've already had a claimed alliance cop. Something just doesn't sit right here.

[SB.]

My action failed last night. Did anyone else's?

##Vote: Nekorex

See my last post.

[BBM]

My action did not fail (obviously).

Well, Scorri, the obvious answer to why Mancer might not have claimed town-sided Hooker is because if Mancer was given a fake to make instead of just Hooker, the mafia might have assumed from that that town had a Hooker. Personally I would have claimed Hooker anyways to try and draw a PR into the open, but they might have thought that the Coroner claim would save Mancer.

[SB.]

Uh, never mind guys. Mod error.

[Baldrick]

A read post is coming, slowly. Popping in to say this;

##Vote: MancerNecro

Greetings, friend. Did you make any unusual observances from N0?

strikes me as odd in isolation. After his claim, it makes a lot more sense. So if Mancer and Marth did plan that whole thing, then they were doing it since the beginning of D1.

[Snike]

Kay stuff to get out of the way:

[spoiler='Snape kills Dumbledore [Kay read this]']I can't quote Kay because she didn't put her response into my post and I CBA'd to format that, but this is to her:

First of all why in hell are you arguing a post made at the beginning of the day instead of reading before making that remark. I'm aware that my listposts are similar but ffs I at least read the whole thread then comment as I go with knowledge of what happens ahead of time.

1. A) rolespeccing harder than I am stop it B) I didn't think of that at the time and C) My point about sho potentially being mafia still stood at that point in time.

2. Why are you criticizing a post made in early day 1 before various sources of information came out? I was laying my opinions out. Sue me.

3. That's not Helios's standard tone in mafia games to my experience. :/

4. I am not sure why that remark needed to be made, especially since I did later clarify on the same 20 ppp.

My action did not fail (obviously).

Well, Scorri, the obvious answer to why Mancer might not have claimed town-sided Hooker is because if Mancer was given a fake to make instead of just Hooker, the mafia might have assumed from that that town had a Hooker. Personally I would have claimed Hooker anyways to try and draw a PR into the open, but they might have thought that the Coroner claim would save Mancer.

##Vote: BBM for that terrible link.

...

##Unvote

Okay maybe not, but we are not amused.

I think this is a stupid explanation if only because one shot Coroner is a disposable role. Why would we not lynch that? Roleblocker was the safer claim, even if there was the potential for a counterclaim, because it is a stronger role. The whole situation is fishy.

I think scorri has a valid point wrt Marth, but I'm going to wait for some reports to come in before making a decision wrt that.

Also I will get to that Paulina post but right now I'm not interested in wall responding.

[Percivalé]

My action failed last night. Did anyone else's?

This reads kinda weird to me, like a subtle way to see who claims having an action and who doesn't, but you took it back so I don't know.

I don't know about the two-mafia theory but if it's true, Marth is actually a lot more likely to be scum. Plus, the role claim was unnecessary.

I'm actually going to place my vote here ##Vote: Marth until I get caught up, which will be later tonight because I just got FE13 hehehe. I'll need to reread Helios ISO though because he's giving me a weird vibe.

[NekoRex]

You know what, I have no idea who is scummy right now. Drawing complete blanks.

I'm just going to start over read-wise and see if I can actually find scum because so far this game has not worked out well for me.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Scorri, I know this is lot to ask but, could you remind me what you wanted me to answer. I cannot seem to find it.

Rest of the game, sorry bout shutting up all night, been busy irl

[Bluedoom]

Night 1 Results:

Much to your surprise, you are unable to approach scorri, because when you prepare to fly into the sky, you find your wings clipped!

However, something else has happened.

Yeah I didn't turn into vanilla but something else happened, I don't want to claim what happened until its absolutely necessary

Sho, did you target Scorri N0?

In other news, ##Vote: Nekorex

Apparently he lost all his scumreads from D1 for god knows why. Didn't lke his play D1 either.

[eclipse]

I'd have a LOT more fun if I didn't have to waste my time on cases that fail on the merit of basic reading comprehension. This is also me on the best behavior I can muster, because the host has graciously allowed me to rant via role PM. I hope this gives everyone just a bit more insight on how I feel about this game.

Bizz, mod errors happen. I don't think that's weird by itself. Strangest thing from Bananas as of late was that long post regarding Blitz/Neko. The Neko part was an interesting observation; the Blitz one felt lazy to me ("hey, lemme collect all these quotes, then apply a blanket statement! I'm helping!"). I wouldn't mind seeing more out of him, since he was hardly clear D1, thanks to his Prims reaction. Other people I want to hear more out of are Sho (if you're vanilla, your weapon is your mouth and your vote, and you are using neither), Kay (had you read a bit better, you'd understand why I'm facepalming at the one quote you grabbed from me), and Helios (because echoes are boring). I have impressions of the lot of you, but they're super-weak.

Someone dayvig BBM for that terrible soundtrack

Elieson, can you please update the first page? A bunch of people subbed in and out last night, and I'd like to see who's playing what. That being said. . .

##Vote: Rein

I don't like forgettable people come D2.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

I did not target scorri

[Elieson]

OP has been updated to include ISO links and an updated player list, as well as enlarged links for phase ends.

Votals:

NekoRex (2): Serious Bagels, Bluedoom

Bluedoom (2): scorri, Leder

Liquid Snake (1): Eclipse

Voteless: Everyone else.

With 19 players alive, 10 will result in a hammer. Phase ends in approximately 54.5 hours.

[eclipse]

THANK YOU O EXALTED HOST!

The strongest scumreads I have are based off of Mancer's flip. After THAT mess, I don't trust it enough to push a lynch, since he likes to mention me in passing a lot, but never builds a case against me. Much as I'd love to orchestrate my own lynch for my own sanity/amusement, I think that would tick off the host. Ahem. . .the ones that he did this to are Xinnidy (mentioned once), Paulina (mentioned later), and Shinori (complete with name screw-up). I don't think it's worth my time to build a case solely off of that; I'd rather use the early part of the day to do something about my null reads.

Also, where the hell did the rest of the game go?

[Percivalé]

Bizz, mod errors happen. I don't think that's weird by itself.

Apparently you read that completely wrong because I didn't even mention the mod error being suspicious.

[Percivalé]

guys i hate explaining myself unnecessarily please stop reading my posts the wrong way

[Percivalé]

Anyway I still wouldn't mind a Neko lynch because he keeps using appeals/excuses to not give reads and wouldn't it be better to actually post reads when they're ready instead of just doing that?? It makes it feel like he wants am excuse to be useless. Remember when Mancer, instead of proceeding to contribute after being prodded, said, "but I HAVE been contributing! look at my posts here!"? Neko did that too, earlier in N1. I'll pull the post up if it's appropriate

[eclipse]

Here's what you posted:

This reads kinda weird to me, like a subtle way to see who claims having an action and who doesn't, but you took it back so I don't know.

I don't know about the two-mafia theory but if it's true, Marth is actually a lot more likely to be scum. Plus, the role claim was unnecessary.

I'm actually going to place my vote here ##Vote: Marth until I get caught up, which will be later tonight because I just got FE13 hehehe. I'll need to reread Helios ISO though because he's giving me a weird vibe.

If I had an action that failed after a hooker's death, I'd be screaming it (for all I know, it was a mass hook or something silly like that). Since he claims it was a mod error, I shoved the entire sentiment as "null read". In other words, not sure why you even brought it up.

I was going to type out something about the lack of kills making it more likely that we're dealing with a single mafia, but then I remembered that not all games have to be run like the type of multi-mafia game I'm accustomed to (i.e. everyone shoots every night). I vaguely recall some game or other I read about (can't point to the specific game, sorry) that had the multiple mafias alternating kills; thus, the multi-mafia theory still stands.

[Percivalé]

I brought it up because those were my thoughts that came into mind?? If anything, the way I read SB's question made the apparent mod error make me feel better about him but that's only because I read his post at a weird angle

also CM3/CM4 had alternate-kill mafias but they were working together so I'm not sure that counts. Did the first PoT mafia have alternate-kill mafias? Because I remember that there were two mafias in that game