Thousand Names Mafia Day 4

[Vhaltz]

this is why yure scum. instead of mudslinging why not point out how im reachin n help me understand where im going wrong? that and "btw look @ ppl besides me" like yure my top suspect of course my energys gonna b focused on yu. im MORE than glad to dance with you if thats what it takes to get towns eye back on you

and im suddenly worth questioning only when i keep pushing you which jus supports my statement that yure basing most of your thoughts around how people treat you. too self aware

It is nothing but a conspiracy theory though. You literally just said a lot of stuff with ellipsis after them as if implying they all make sense from a scum perspective without explaining why it makes sense from a scum perspective. That's pretty much mudslinging by itself, which is why my reaction to your last post is what it is, and why my reaction to your earlier post (and to many other people calling me scum) wasn't.

You're also cool with dancing with me but evade my questioning by dismissing the very act of questioning as scummy, how do you expect to reach any kind of discussion, let alone understanding, when all you say boils down to "you're scum dude"?

[Bossanova]

Boss what are your thoughts on:

-Shin's #124
-Me vs Vhaltz?
-Prims' points against you.

- Didn't make me feel anything about him at all. Null. Why ask me about him?

- Already said a bit about that actually.

- Against me? Seemed more like for me. Again, I'm not really getting what these matter to you unless you're trying to have casual conversation with me.

That being said, the direction of this game is making me feel like I'm in bizzaro world. Snike's #128 is fine and I think actually shows how stupid the Vhatlz push is right now. Normally in these situations where a lot of people agree on one person, it's either a misguided wagon in the first place or scum is gonna look to jump on it at the safest opportunity. If I had to do a bit of reaching myself I'd say Shin is by the far the worst of anyone to vote Vhaltz as he seems to just mirror the general consensus on him and promptly votes him after. That would be a 'parking your vote' for me.

[Bossanova]

I need to figure out this forum's quoting system. I was quoting Kirsche in #177. Goddamnit.

[Shin]

I'm cool with Shin's replies, not so much that he wants to lynch me but you can't always have everything!

Nothing personal, hermano, I just want to see an angry mob run you out of town. Just a heads up, Bossanova, I'm not currently voting Vhaltz, does that change your opinion of "parking the vote"?

[Bossanova]

Nothing personal, hermano, I just want to see an angry mob run you out of town. Just a heads up, Bossanova, I'm not currently voting Vhaltz, does that change your opinion of "parking the vote"?

Did I misread? I'm pretty sure you voted him.

[Shin]

Did I misread? I'm pretty sure you voted him.

I did vote Vhaltz, but I'm currently voting Snike.

[Bossanova]

Truth be told, both him and Excellen need to exist. My problem is it's hard to distinguish Rapier as scum from Rapier just being a derp, they're remarkably similar. Excellen should really put some reads together, currently they've got like two town reads and that's it. I'm sure there's part of that guide of yours that talks about scum reads!

Glanced over this. Is rapier known to make such odd claims before or plays as such?

[Vhaltz]

Glanced over this. Is rapier known to make such odd claims before or plays as such?

Rapier is known for flaking often if he can't keep up with the game, I thought I saw him writing a post a few minutes ago though. I don't think he'd fakeclaim numbers as scum unless it was a fake given to him by the mod or some buddy suggested it, but I've only really played with Rapier twice so don't take my word for it.

[Zkirsche]

This is where I disagree. I didn't like Kirsche from the get-go for starting off about roles as I feel that's an easy topic to cling to as scum to make it look like you give a shit about town's interests. His posting thus far has in general left a bad taste in my mouth and I was confused how people were looking at him just for his ridiculous claim.

Dude what? I went into this game making a claim and making a basic case on Vhaltz. I then joke around with my claim a bit before immediately questioning things that I did not like, this is a complete misrepresentation on how I started this game. The idea that my focus at the start of this game was on my role is laughable at best.

There's nothing to say to the previous paragraph aside from "nope you are getting that wrong m8". It also reads a bit hypocritical. You have interpreted my approach to something as "reaching" when there's a variety of explanations for it while I interpreted Vhaltz's approach to something as something else when there could be a variety of explanations for it.

Didn't make me feel anything about him at all. Null. Why ask me about him?

You mentioned earlier that Shin was one of your biggest scumreads, albeit too minor of one to vote. I wanted to know how you interpreted his recent content, and at the time what stood out most was #124. You talk about his vote switch later though and it's a good analysis (disagree though), disappointed that the most you can come up with to respond to a scumread's wall is "null" and nothing more though.

I would harp on you for not voting me or Shin but you come from a strange place where town might like to be conservative about their votes. In the off chance that you don't know, everyone on SF who is a miller insta-claims it to save the cop some time.

Not liking this stuff from Bossanova but I'm terribly biased and wary that his meta might be different to the standard and that is what is bugging me. I shall wait for his response to this and Snike's follow up before reassessing them.

[Rapier]

Did anyone read the post where I say we have 9 town, 3 scum and 1 TP? Yeah, you guys should remember it. Please keep the setup in mind.

Really? So you're essentially voting me for not being up to speed with SF metagame? Or for me disagreeing with it?

Why do you even think I called him scum, or thought he was, when what I did was call him out on anti town behaviour(in my opinion)?

Then why would you vote someone you think is town for anti-town behavior? It makes no sense to lynch town playing badly. A serious vote always implies the voter believes they're into someone who is hostile to town, be it a third party or scum. If you don't think the player you're voting is scum/TP (as you claimed you don't think Shin's any of these), or if you think they might be just town playing badly, your vote is either scummy or anti-town. In any case, it is bad.

And I'm voting you because your vote doesn't only paint Shin in a bad light when they could be just town self-voting (basically for making a big issue of something small), but it is also lazy. Why is Shin scummy just because your manual says so? Why should I believe your manual is right? You've answered my rebuttals with "I don't believe SF meta / I'm not up to speed with SF metagame / read the manual if you want answers". Well, if you disagree with Vhaltz or my points, use your own arguments. If you're not up to speed with Shin's play, ask for games where he was town and selfvoted. If you believe SF meta is wrong, argue why it is and why your meta is right. Appeal to authority is not going to work here.

Anwyay, Excellen vote relies on factually incorrect logic (Shin voted himelf on rvs, my book says players who vote themselves on rvs are scum, Shin is scum), about which Vhaltz and I argued (if he needs real examples where Shin and other players voted themselves as town, I will, just to end this silly part), and he's still voting for Shin with these reasons included, which means he doesn't believe this is just a misunderstanding, as Paper said. His current answers haven't been satisfactory to me either. I feel justified for not liking his play so far.

Rapier what to you mean by "take the obvious bait"? that implies that you're not really confident w/ your Excellen vote.

I meant that I thought Excellen's post was a bait to start serious discussion in this game and end RVS, but I thought he was serious about his vote too, because I'm stupid. So I took the bait and started the discussion.

town!Shin has incentive to hunt scum and Shin is not hunting scum when he could be

This kind of sounds like WIFOM to me (Mancer's also guilty of this in a couple of posts, which also bothers me because his posts are merely speculative and not direct). Shin could realpost as town or as scum. Shin could continue jokeposts as town or as scum. Doesn't make him scum. I agree with pushing his ears in order to make him start realposting, though.

cuz they're thoughts I wouldn't even talk about if not asked for them, and voting for pressure is entirely useless now that the thoughts are out.

Not worth voting to begin with either because it would just lead to confirmation bias over something dumb.

Not really liking this part much. I don't see how pressure voting is entirely useless now because a vote always pushes someone to speak up and answer questions. If you did find my vote weak but not scummy, sure, no need to vote, but you could've asked me and, you know, scumhunt. I've seen you throw comments here and there, most of the time when people ask you about it, but not actively scumhunt. On that note, I agree with Kirsche's #100.

Rapier's reasoning isn't good if they're like "MAN Excellen is trying to SMEAR Shin" when there's a clear meta discrepancy between current SF play and what Excellen is/was used to.

If there's a huge discrepancy between current Mafia Of The Future and the eighties' mafiosos, it's he who should pick up to the current times and reevaluate his vote, not I who should pretend it never happened and leave a factually wrong vote be. Both you and I told him how his case's logic doesn't stand, and he's refused to at least argue about how his logic stands (parroting 'read the manual' is not arguing about your logic).

^ To elaborate on that since I mentioned looking out for Rapier's next posts. Something that has both potential scum intent and potential town scumhunting intent is worth looking out for more than something that just says nothing or is WIFOM like Shin's posts.

You could've addressed me in order to push me to answer these questions you have in mind. Not doing so gives me the feeling you refused to properly scumhunt while you could.

--

tl;dr, I still hold the same position regarding Excellen. Vhaltz pickes my curiousity in a bad way, and so does Mancer. I'm around page 7 and tired of reading. I'll be back latter.

[Bossanova]

Dude what? I went into this game making a claim and making a basic case on Vhaltz. I then joke around with my claim a bit before immediately questioning things that I did not like, this is a complete misrepresentation on how I started this game. The idea that my focus at the start of this game was on my role is laughable at best.

There's nothing to say to the previous paragraph aside from "nope you are getting that wrong m8". It also reads a bit hypocritical. You have interpreted my approach to something as "reaching" when there's a variety of explanations for it while I interpreted Vhaltz's approach to something as something else when there could be a variety of explanations for it.

We agree to disagree then.That's the crux of the whole thing that I can't see things your way and you can't see things my way. Could you tell me your second suspect out of Vhaltz? I feel like he's got plenty of spotlight already and if there's anything you also disagree about with my perspective on my play you can go ahead and tell me.

You mentioned earlier that Shin was one of your biggest scumreads, albeit too minor of one to vote. I wanted to know how you interpreted his recent content, and at the time what stood out most was #124. You talk about his vote switch later though and it's a good analysis (disagree though), disappointed that the most you can come up with to respond to a scumread's wall is "null" and nothing more though.

I hated his self-vote antics but he came back with a wall that looks decent but with me disagreeing with what he is doing. Also dunno why he dropped Vhaltz like that but I digress. I'd say I'm looking more into you though and possibly YOLO as this is just a matter of me disagreeing on your Vhaltz read.

I would harp on you for not voting me or Shin but you come from a strange place where town might like to be conservative about their votes. In the off chance that you don't know, everyone on SF who is a miller insta-claims it to save the cop some time.

That's not really a meta thing where I play more of a me thing where I don't like voting unless I feel like I got enough to vote for. Do you agree with YOLO on his Quote read, or do you agree with me?

[Bossanova]

EBWOP: anything you disagree on my Perspective on Vhaltz' play. I'm not asking for an opinion on me. Guess I'm still tired

[Paperblade]

The Vhaltz case is feeling like Vhaltz said something that was Not As Townie As It Could Have Been and so people jumped on him, and then were dissatisfied with his explanation because they were already unhappy with him because confirmation biases.

I can't follow yoloswag's logic at all and his posts are a pain in the ass to read. I don't really know what to expect from this slot either tbh

Rapier do you believe Llen's actions are inherently scummy? You didn't answer this.

Snike's posts are difficult for me to read, he seems to have just spat out a bunch of thoughts on everyone and I don't really understand who he thinks is scum. If he wasn't voting Rapier I wouldn't really know he thinks he is his top scumread?

[Vhaltz]

So I probably got some kind of food poisoning, it doesn't seem too bad so probably not something some tea can't fix in a couple of hours.

[Prims]

Still want to lynch Vhaltz; despite complaining about noise and his interaction with kirsche, he was super invested in getting kirsche off his back when he could've just pulled out of the thread and come back with content later. my issue with the Prims read coming in late is that the timing looks like appeasement; would've been fine had he been looking for mafias up to that point.

additionally, Vhaltz continuously discrediting attacks on him - kirsche's as a "dumb conversation" even though Vhaltz kept replying, mine as salt, YOLO's as conspiracy - is dismissive rather than helpful and just serves to make him look touchy about being scumread. if he's town he should drop the antagonism since it only encourages people to keep voting him. he should also explain why he never voted me in the first place, I don't think he actually did that - this isn't just OMGUS, it legit bugs me because town Vhaltz'd get more mileage out of the read if I had a vote to respond to, whereas scum!Vhaltz has motive not to vote me (it seems less likely to start a fight and is internally consistent with the "no mom I don't WANT to vote" persona he built up this game).

I agree w/ YOLO that the town-reads on Paper, Mancer and Bossa aren't relevant to game state and in Bossa's case, rather contrived. Nobody's on their case, so what's the point in bringing them up unless he wants to get on their good side?

I consider him the best D1 lynch just because he's aggressively concerned with appearances even when he's scumhunting. #138 did Mitsuki say that because he ROLLED MAFIA????

---

Moving onto Snike. I'm not sure why he needs to ask for clarification on my Vhaltz case while summing it up in the process. Snike, what do you think you're misunderstanding? Why couldn't you have just explained what you didn't like about the case there and then? I can't tell what's been up with your Vhaltz read since you went from not being interested to finding him "scummy enough". Would you lynch Vhaltz now? Your priorities are unclear beyond the vote on the guy who hasn't been active enough to respond and I can't shake the feeling you're more just "there" than doing things, please go harder if you are town.

@Shin: how was I being "reluctant to put stuff out", like I "haven't responded to much other content"? I had just made a pretty comprehensive post and a response to YOLO so I wanna know what gave you this impression. Now that I'm not voting your #1 scumread, do you still think I'm scummy? Also, what about Snike struck you as scummy enough that he was a better vote than Vhaltz?

@Excellen: Your #136 seems overly dismissive. If everything up until then is town in-fighting then who are the scum? You and RoseSGS? Is Shin still scum? Your vote's still on him but you don't acknowledge his recent content.

@Vhaltz: what was your actual read on my alignment at the time of your response to my vote?

Wish Rapier's concerns extended beyond earlygame posts. There are valid points to be raised against Excellen but there's much more going on now and I'd rather hear Rapier's thoughts on newer content.

btw I don't see where the town-reads on Bossa are coming from. His post with no vote came during the Vhaltz wagon, yeah, but Bossa actually did have opinions, so there's no real dissonance there. Guy keeps talking about Rapier but isn't voting Rapier and never answered me about his actual thoughts on Rapier. Seems like he's skimming the thread at best. (Bossa respond when you see this to confirm you're not ignoring me.) I don't consider him scummy but his content has been... lackluster and I'd caution against giving him a free pass since there's literally no reason to do so?

The Vhaltz case is feeling like Vhaltz said something that was Not As Townie As It Could Have Been and so people jumped on him, and then were dissatisfied with his explanation because they were already unhappy with him because confirmation biases.

This is not my Vhaltz case nor is it Via's or YOLO's, pls read thread harder.

Finally, YOLO's content is much easier to follow than your average Elieson post not even joking.

[Prims]

Also, for what it's worth, Vhaltz, if I was legitimately just inclined to scumread you because I was annoyed at you for the way you played in a game I hosted I could've like... done that back when I first pointed out your ED1 post wasn't contributing anything to game state. I think your approach to this game prioritizes yourself before the town and that's scummy. Nothing you've posted has convinced me otherwise.

[Zkirsche]

Can someone who was scumreading Rapier read his wall please I can't be bothered.

Could you tell me your second suspect out of Vhaltz?

My secondary scumspect is Vhaltz, I am currently voting Snike whom I am eagerly waiting a follow up post from. I am sad though because I've essentially sat on this vote all day now thinking he would be around at some point. To be clear my priority is:

Snike >> Vhaltz > Excellen >> Bossanova

My main frustration with you being that you don't seem to have any kind of suspicion you're willing to chase at all and seem to lose track of people's suspicions easily, almost as if you're not reading the game. You did say you would be rather apathetic though, which is a shame. Which forum do you play on?

if there's anything you also disagree about with my perspective on my play you can go ahead and tell me.

I'm not really sure what to say that hasn't been said really. My thoughts on his approach to the game are abundantly clear and if you don't think that my interpretation of his actions are correct and refuse to see sense then so be it.

Do you agree with YOLO on his Quote read, or do you agree with me?

I would say I agree with your conclusion more than Yolo's. I don't really think scum would make a post like #122, seems too natural to be forged. I understand Yolo's frustrations with it perfectly, however, as it is one many have experienced.

Paper you've been sitting on that Rapier vote for a long time.

[MancerNecro]

Wtf is this huge amount of posts to read? Please give me a moment to read it all. I just woke up oops...

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

@vhaltz 2nd part of 157

that quote shouldve read "his first real suspect snike doesnt come til shaky points are made by im about vhaltz" my bad. i rushed that post cuz i was on my way out the door running late for college. my earlier post (156) with the ellipses was me listing the times youve made plays revolving around how people view you in the game. its a pattern that i think is likelier to come from scum than town and calling it a conspiracy theory is just undermining rhetoric. as for dancing with you i was jus bein dramatic n said that cuz i thought it sounded cool. i jus think youre scum n wanna lynch you

@boss thats cool wrt 170. i realized my issue with quotes language was just a nulltell from bein unfamiliar with his diction. outside of that im really not sure what youre doing in this game. whos scum? whos town? when will you vote?

feel like im missin somethin. gonna reread again

[Percivalé]

Um, I'm sorry my playstyle is frustrating?

[Excellen Browning]

Dear all, I'm having some trouble keeping up with this pace of posting. Even if it's half of what I'm used to in SF NOC mafia. I also have some problems with my memory, due to some medicine I take.

I still don't agree with voting Vhaltz. Yes, his defense consists of calling the cases made against him stupid. And if anything, this reads like indignation at being called not town.

At this moment, I feel like I'm echoing what Prims said just above me, but I'm not liking Rapier for seemingly understanding what my Shin vote was (non scum and non anti town) and still keeping his vote on me. This, if anything, reeks of intellectual dishonesty.

WRT Snike, I can agree with the continuation of the Rapier vote up to a point. The entire "rapier and vhaltz should just have let people react" is odd to me, because I thought they were solid reactions to a reaction test but w/e. Your posting up till this point reads mostly like you're avoiding having strong opinions and that you're misrepresenting some things to keep your vote on Rapier.

I also have a dislike toward kirsche that I can't explain. Ditto with Mancer.

The persons I'm willing to vote for right now are Rapier and Snike. I'm not sure in which order.

##Unvote

##Vote: Rapier

[Prims]

YOLO, do you have any notable scumreads other than Vhaltz atm?

[Zkirsche]

Frustrating was a very untactful way of putting it but it felt the most appropriate. For the record I don't particularly care.

I need to stop viewing everything as a scum move. I'm very untrustful this game. I say this because I was townreading Prims earlier but really cringe at most of #190 as he seems to have the same problem as he accused Snike of having: an unclear priority. Outside of Vhaltz he doesn't really push anyone as scum and if Vhaltz was lynched D1 and flipped VT or some other minor role I wouldn't know what he'd be pushing come D2. Prims can you please alleviate this concern and post a lynch priority or at least state a secondary scumread.

[Prims]

My scumreads are Vhaltz > Snike. Everybody else I talked about I just find questionable, though I'm a bit distrustful toward Shin for whatever reason. Don't have anything concrete on him though, just gut and an ED1 STRONG read. Was hoping to get a better grasp of his alignment based on his answers.

Would appreciate Excellen talking about why he kept his vote down on Shin in his post before the last one, and what his current read on Shin is.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

the sticking point about vhaltz is how he treats most people who go at him. the top of my 156 and prims 190 are what im getting at with regards to niggas gettin discredited left n right. many of his reads are made around what people think of him. the only person he townreads who has attacked him is shin but shin didnt have as much of a back and forth with vhaltz as kirsche prims or myself. i jus feel like hes holding a knife to anyone who really gets at him. im typing this in hopes of it resonating with more people and cuz i saw some "why the hell is YOLO voting vhaltz" posts