NekoKnight

Isn't it Mikoto who marries into the royal family and Sumeragi is the Hoshido lord? That was my understanding, which made it unusual that it was Mikoto who was in charge, instead of the very adult Ryoma.

Is it ever explained in the game proper why Kamui was kidnapped? I know he is a lord and super special dragon but what did Nohr want to use him for? As far as I can tell, they kept him locked up in a castle for most of his life and then they tried to kill him. I think a rewrite of the game would need an extra reason for why Kamui in particular was kidnapped. Kamui is the 3rd eldest child of the royal family and if female, ranked even lower than Takumi if sons inherit before daughters. That doesn't sound like a very impressive political hostage. One idea I was thinking about was Kamui being chosen by the Fire Emblem from an early age and the emblem being tied to Hoshido's prosperity. Another way spin it is that the rightful heir to the Hoshido throne must be chosen by the emblem, which is why Mikoto is acting as the steward of Hoshido when usually one of the king's children would take power after he died. It's just an idea. I wouldn't want something like "chosen ones" leading to plot-derailing player-worship. The sharp contrast of prosperous Hoshido and Nohrdor warrants some kind of explanation however. Be it magical in nature or otherwise.

B-but muh dragons! I think you can still keep the vague dragon lineage for both sides of the royal families, just not give Kamui super special dragon blood. Basically it would just be a part of the lore to justify the use of dragon's vein. I really liked the idea of having a protagonist who was part dragon, but if they are not even going to explore it properly (and how could they when the theme is supposed to be about family) they might as well not include it. I'm getting really excited for the fan fictions that could spawn from this thread. It will be the best Fire Emblem that never was.

Azura and IK as a whole are elements I feel can be cut. What does IK really serve to do other than overshadow the other routes in terms of canon and plot significance? Do we REALLY need a cosmic, world ending dragon to make the plot dramatic enough? The original premise we were sold could have been truly epic. If we must have our dragon quota filled, actually make Lilith and Kamui's dragon heritage relevant in the first two routes! Sounds good to me. I agree that the bulk of the game should be about reforming from within but a writer can pace it however they want. I arbitrary chose chapter 15 to be the point Nohr conquers Hoshido but it could be even earlier. As we have it now, the conquest of Hoshido would be chapters 7-15, or 9 chapters total. I don't want to gloss over the Nohr-Hoshido war, but it could probably be done in fewer. The plots of Hoshido and Nohr are only as long as they are because of what could be described as filler content spread out here and there. This is true. People (myself included) give Marx flak for being such a stubborn idiot about his father but the conflict that the Nohrian siblings would have for betraying Garon is real. The odd thing is, in Nohr (for the actual game) they have the perfect set up for a turning point in which the siblings might side with you over Garon (Garon's order to execute you, much like how Jaffar was ordered to kill Nino but went rogue instead) but they put it at the very beginning of the route! Garon already sounds insane so there is no build up, and everyone is just expected go along with King Badman with only some vague references to him not always being evil. Nanima does a good job of explaining how they might realistically think of Garon. This, so much. Another way they they could ease into the eventual rebellion is having them try to reform Nohr without directly opposing their father. They could be doing things like policing crime or secretly hiring assassins like Belka to kill corrupt lords. I like the idea of Camilla secretly working for a better Nohr, especially because she will have a purpose other than to be Kamui's wife. It doesn't need to be an immediate rebellion/plot to kill Garon. It would be something gradual and the civil war/open rebellion part wouldn't come until much later.

I like the idea of Sakura getting captured, leading to Hinoka as the head of a puppet government but at the same time, I wouldn't want Hinoka's role reduced to bench-warmer when she got so little attention in the actual game. As far as re-writing Hoshido goes, I think the story was solid, if unambitious. I think the overall "defend country against invaders" plot should remain the same but we could add to other elements that didn't get much attention such as the political infighitng (Fuuma rebellion) and Kamui's dragon heritage. Haha, yes! I think both routes should shine light on the flaws and motivations for both Nohr and Hoshido. Hoshidans being a peaceful people, but indifferent to the suffering of non-Hoshidans. Nohrians being aggressive and ruthless but out of desperation for a lack of resources. So rewrite it. Aqua needs to be completely redone anyway. Make it so that Kamui has been allowed out in the open for 4 years or so, so he's aware of the kind of issues Nohr faces. I always thought it was weird that Garon bothered to capture Kamui if he wasn't going to make a serious effort to indoctrinate him and make him loyal to Nohr.

I wouldn't want the game to be completely symmetrical with the deaths that appear in the Hoshido route (older brother/younger sister) but 2 deaths would be good to cement the gravity of your choice without making it too much of a waste of characters. Ryoma (sorry Yari) makes the most sense as he's the defacto ruler of the country that needs to die to make Garon's conquest significant. I think Takumi would be the best choice for next kill. Killing off all the male heirs of a dynasty seems like a natural choice when subduing a conquered territory. I'm not sure what Sakura would do besides support Hinoka but at the same time, I don't think much time needs to be spent on her. It's the Nohr route afterall, so the game will have it's hands full with developing the Nohr siblings. Here's my idea for some of the chapters in the new Nohr route. Hoshido is conquered relatively early (maybe chapter 15?) and up to that point, the focus will be mostly on combating Ryoma and Takumi. After chapter 15, Ryoma and Takumi are captured by Garon and the remainder of Hoshido's forces are scattered. Hinoka (with the support of Sakura) are organizing a guerrilla war against the Nohrian occupation (ninja assassinations, arsons etc). In retaliation for these attacks, Garon/Ganz/Iago massacre civilians which greatly upsets Kamui. He believes Hinoka's futile resistance is just leading to more innocents dying so he spends a few more chapters combating Hoshidan insurgents. By chapter 17/18, Kamui confronts Hinoka directly and after the battle, captures her, unbeknownst to Garon. Garon, fed up with the Hoshido resistance plans to execute both Ryoma (soooorrrrry Yari) and Takumi in the plaza by hanging. Kamui and Hinoka (bound) arrive by carriage at the start of the execution, and unlike Radiant Dawn, they are unable to stop it. Kamui and Hinoka are forced to watch as their brothers are killed and at this point, more Hoshidan rebels attack and free Hinoka. After the battle, Kamui searches for Hinoka but is ambushed by Hinoka's forces. Hinoka tells Kamui that she can never forgive him for all the suffering he brought to Hoshido but refuses to kill him. Instead she tells him if he ever cared about his Hoshidan family, he should help her topple the brutal Garon. This is the point (probably starting at chapter 19/20) where Kamui acknowledges that Garon has gone too far and must be stopped. What follows is probably Kamui uniting dissatisfied factions in Nohr and well as bumping off the evil Nohrians like Ganz and Iago. By the end of the game, Hoshido regains its sovereignty under Queen Hinoka but has lost territory (farmland) to Nohr that will be used to help sustain the country. Maybe Marx will become the next king of Nohr and Kamui will be in charge of a neutral zone in-between Nohr and Hoshido.

Good ideas, particularly the last one. It could make for a good story if after Hoshido is conquered, Hinoka escapes and leads a rebellion. After Ryoma and Takumi are executed, Hinoka becomes queen and the rebellion (both from the Hoshido forces AND from Kamui's Nohr faction) can really get started.

I was musing about some ideas for Aqua's new role in the story and I think it might be effective if she doesn't appear in the story directly until after the Hoshido/Nohr conflict has escalated. Imagine if Aqua was in the IK and tried to contact Kamui through his dreams to hint at the true threat to the world. Kamui could choose to ignore these visions and focus on the factions about to go to war, or if you choose the 3rd path, Kamui runs away and a vision tells him to jump off that bridge to find Aqua. Aqua wouldn't appear in person in the Hoshido or Nohr routes until it was too late to stop the war, but she would still try, to the extent that the curse allows to convince Kamui they have bigger problems

Ryoma and Takumi got signature weapons too so it's not that special :/

>implying they won't be holding invisible guns. If Nowi passed the bar, then they will too. They will likely tone down their supports so they don't sound as overtly romantic and/or age them up to teenagers. It's easy to gloss over the sex and pregnancy because the game already does it. When two people love each other very much, they hold hands and then a baby appears in a wheat field. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Jokes aside, I don't think werewolves in their human form ever counted as 'furry'. Dragons and wolves are animals so it's not bestiality!

Yes, Takumi isn't without flaws but that's probably why he's regarded as one of the best written siblings. Alazen's original point was that people who dislike Kamui, for legitimate reasons or not, are maligned. I find it ironic that people saw the trailer of Takumi calling Kamui a traitor and said "fuck this guy, I was never loyal to Hoshido" but when you actually play the game and siding with Nohr means pissing on Mikoto's sacrifice, he has a pretty good point!

He has good reason to distrust Kamui before and especially after Mikoto's death but the story still gives him a hard time over it. His dislike of Aqua was unwarranted, however.

The understanding of the plot won't be perfect and you are right to say some people are only going off of second hand information, I don't disagree with this. But when so many people (including multiple people actually translating the chapter dialogue and supports) come to the same conclusions about the writing, it's safer to assume they are correct about most things. We've discussed many of the failings of the writing and I've yet to see a single person try to debunk the most damning problems (such as those listed by Alazen). I don't like "wait until the localization is released before passing judgement" arguments because 1. it expects us to not voice any opinions of significance for months on end until a version of the original source material comes out and 2. it tries to diffuse criticism with theoretical information no one knows about. "Maybe there will be reveals in the future that completely change people's appreciation of the plot so you can't say bad things about it yet".

It's true that characters can have several traits of a Mary Sue but not be one because of being well written. I've heard Mikasa from Attack on Titan referenced here as a Mary Sue and it's easy to think that, on the surface. Exotic background, beautiful, almost peerless fighting abilities, being in love with a male lead, etc. But when you look deeper at the challenges she faces and the other interactions with characters she has, she actually quite fallible and the story/characters doesn't bend to suit her desires. There is more to a Mary Sue than mere screen time and abundance of positive qualities. By definition, 'main characters' are going to get a disproportionate amount of attention and likely have several things that make them special but good writing will balance them out so a character is both endearing and believable.

"blue, red and green" was for ME3, the last portion of a trilogy where people expected their choices to matter in a significant way. DA:O was a one off lalalanodragonagegameswerereleasedafterthat and the conclusion wasn't as important as how you got there. Even if there were no route splits past chapter 6, I think people would have been happy with simple choices "ally with this faction over that faction" like in Yarne's paralogue or choosing to spare or not spare people (ie choose the moral fiber of the self-insert). I agree that too much divergence dilutes the game content but a lot can be done with simple dialogue changes or slight alterations of the map you play on. Chapter 6 for IK could have been made worlds better with only a dialogue change, to name one example.

There are over 18 pages of discussion of the plot in this thread and a multitude of other threads to discuss other specific aspects of the writing. If you read through all those pages and only gleamed "people are simply exaggerating" and don't really know what they're talking about, I think you need to think over your position again. The localization will undoubtedly change or shed light on certain things that people have problems with but as has been discussed and analyzed over and over again, Fates' writing missed the mark, on many fronts.

I guess Camilla is obligated to have one mood-breaking, fanservice scene per route; be it a sultry walk focusing on her assets or flirting with a defeated enemy female commander.

Whenever I say "I like Dragon Age" I have to pause for a moment and then add "Origins" to clarify I'm not a fan of anything past the first game. The Warden is probably the best example of a freely customizable (in appearance, gameplay choices and roleplaying) avatar that doesn't make you the center of the universe, such as it is in Fates. You are special, in the sense that you are the last of two people who are able to stop the Big Bad Dragon and his Army of Evil but most people won't respect you unless you earn it. The fact that your party members can leave you if you do something extremely contrary to their values shows that player worship is not a major thing in the game. I didn't need Kamui to be able to pick and choose how he reacts to everything or what kind of person he is. I never needed it with any other FE main character, including Robin. Had they just written a respectable character that doesn't warp the narrative around him, I would have been happy. I maintain that Kamui should have been primarily a viewpoint and have characters like Marx and Ryoma take center-stage.

But did anyone really think we would have a Mass Effect level avatar/self-insert? Unless we get dialogue trees, it isn't going to happen.

But who will hold the beer stein joke weapon? It's too small to be an axe.

I didn't care for Marx's character at all. It's one thing for him to remember a kinder Garon and be loyal to his country but Marx has seen first hand how merciless and cruel the current Garon is. Kamui tells Marx that Garon tried to get him killed and Marx doesn't believe it. Then when Garon tries to have Kamui executed because of some contrived accusations of treason AND makes it clear he wants Kamui to suffer, RIGHT IN FRONT OF MARX, he still doesn't think that means his daddy has gone off the deep end. Even though the game does so much in the way of Kamui-worship, when Kamui points out straightforward examples of how Garon is bad news, Marx refuses to acknowledge it. I didn't feel bad when Marx died. He died the stubborn fool that he was.

Sorry, I meant to say I was agreeing and then I expanded on some points I felt needed mentioning. tldr version, You have tons of reasons, including your immediate safety, to side with Hoshido but siding with Nohr is a horrible choice unless you are doing it to protect your Nohr siblings, which is still something you attempt to do when you side with Hoshido. The funny thing is, Kamui could have chosen Hoshido even if he didn't have any family there (which turns out to be true) and it still would have been a more moral and forward thinking choice. And when you choose Nohr, family is the only reason. It's not really a conflict of faction loyalty, it's siding with the good guys or the bad guys and your punch-clock-villain siblings.

The motivation to side with Hoshido is very strong. Garon has apparently tried to kill you twice up to this point, he successfully killed your mother as well as a crowd of other innocent people and he's planning to invade a peaceful land for no reason(plus Nohr has been sending monsters to attack Hoshido, presumably just to spite them). Really, blood-family is the least important reason for him to side with Hoshido. When he "betrays" his Nohr siblings and tells them to withdraw, it's clear he still cares about them and doesn't want a full blown war to break out. Contrast this to when he betrays his Hoshido kin and tells them to withdraw (Where? Should they just allow the invasion to continue? They are on the defensive here.) which makes zero sense. The stated reason for Kamui going back to Nohr is he wants to stop the war from within Nohr and confront Garon on his attempt to kill him (as if to mock Kamui's choice, the first thing Garon does upon Kamui's return is attempt to have Kamui executed...again). It really does come across short-sighted and egotistical on Kamui's part because Kamui doesn't actually have a plan to stop the war besides appeasing Garon by... doing exactly what Garon orders him to. Oops.

6 "main characters" (Kamui, Aqua and the other 4 siblings) was overly ambitious to say the least and it's not hard to see why they amount of screentime was spread thin. More important than their relation to Kamui is them having agency and motivations not related to Kamui. Even Leon and Takumi, who are considered the best developed of the bunch, structure a lot of their drama on Kamui's involvement in the plot instead of having their own lives.

I don't think this exactly works, at least how it is presented in the actual game. Camilla and Hinoka are still older than Kamui so they have seniority and you can't even say Kamui got the lead because of their gender since they can be a girl. Even discounting age, Takumi and Leon have more combat and (arguably more important) world experience so they too should be in charge before Kamui. Putting Kamui in charge is like asking a person who has never been on a hike to be your tour guide to Mount Everest. As far as the "special attachment" is concerned unless Marx and Ryoma's forces were wiped out by the time you meet them, it can be assumed you merge into their army and not the other way around. For proud and experienced battle commanders like the older siblings, it's hard to imagine them letting their younger sibling stay in charge after they join. "Latent abilities" (it's true Kamui has dragon blood but the game DOESN'T use that as an excuse) seems like a mary sue way of pushing someone into authority despite having not earned it. What they could do is have the next oldest sibling in your group (barring Kamui for the above reasons) be the official leader of the army but keep Kamui on the war counsel out of respect for the practical uses he'd have on the battlefield. In fact, if they rewrote the story so that only Kamui could use Dragon Vein, Kamui WOULD add something that no one else could do.