Interceptor
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I could have Ricken tank the entire left portion of Ch12, too. The difference is that Ricken doesn't get there without grinding, or massively slowing down the team while you baby the hell out of him. The reason is, he doesn't have the durability to train himself in the normal course of the game. You have to choose between speed, or dealing with his frailty. Nowi does not force that kind of a decision on your team, because you get both her contributions, and durability to facilitate growth, when you use her.Ive had Ricken tank the entire left portion of Chapter 12. He also ORKO'd them due to hitting RES, your point is moot. What I see here is people cherrypicking who can get away with that spd base. Ricken has ways to contribute right away with his Elwind and is also easier to feed kills to for me than Miriel. If Ricken's durability affects his growth, then I shudder to think what Miriel's durability does to her. Back on the topic of NOWAI: she's thouroughly mediocre in her join chapter. Getting 2HKO'd by stuff at base and a combination of a fighter and 2 dark mage hits will kill her. She's not exactly invincible on join. She HAS to be babied. You're just on denial.
Your biggest problem is that while you imagine a contradiction in the treatment of base SPD, you seem to fail to understand that the durability difference makes it irrelevant. Look at Nowi's growths. I'll wait. Notice how she kicks the shit out of Ricken in every category except MAG, a stat that she doesn't even use? It's not even close, it's a total stomp. If you were insane and reclassed her to Mage, she beats or ties everything he has, including MAG.
So here we have Nowi, who can happily survive getting attacked by half a dozen guys because of Gregor and a DEF tonic. She levels at the same rate as Ricken, but can face a lot more combat than him because of her tankiness. She doesn't double, but hits so hard that she's 2HKO'ing anyway, and counters everything, so no man is left unscathed.
Nowi has 5 move in your wildest dreams. Maybe while you are educating yourself on what "babying" actually means, you can brush up on your class bases too.Nowi has 5 move and can't double a thing. She has to be babied in order to be useful.
Incidentally, Nowi effectively has 7 MV as soon as her defenses are established, since you can promote Gregor to Bow Knight once she doesn't needs his +DEF anymore. She's no flier, but she's no slouch either.
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There is a huge difference between "babying" (what we do to make Donnel good) and "feeding" (what we do to make Avatar good). One implies slowing down the team, the other implies focusing of resources. It's bad if you need to be babied, it's not necessary bad if you take a lot of resources (you do, however, need to perform with those resources, otherwise it's a waste).The thing that bothers me about this Nowi hype, is that the people that hype her feed her like an entire map and sometimes even slow down for her. If units like Cordelia, Sumia, Stahl and others are almost invincible too, what's it matter if she takes 2 damage vs their 5 out of 48 hp (just an example) when they do it faster? The Nowi hype is unwarranted, I can see why some would consider her OP due to her defenses when BABIED but I don't agree with it. It's hard to convince me. It also doesn't help that Ricken gets a lot more flack for his 5 spd base in Chapter 5 than Nowi gets for her 5 spd base (after Dragonstone) in Chapter 8, and they have the same growth and support the same dude (Gregor).
N.O.W.I. gets fed kills in the course of normal clears. Seriously, she contributes to an efficient clear of her joining chapter, and only needs boosters/Pair-up to rock and roll from that point on. Once she hits critical mass in terms of defensive parameters, she can stall half a map by herself while you focus the rest of your army elsewhere. Once she starts doubling, she's one of the top five units on your team.
Your Ricken complaint is rejected. Compare their concrete durability sometime, and ask yourself whether that makes a difference for their ability to grow/contribute. Spoilers: it does. What do you suppose that Ricken's chances are of getting to the point where he can tank 17 Valm guys in one Enemy Phase?
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I hadn't noticed that, but one of them had Pass in my final run, so I ended up having them bracket in Avatar anyway. The Hammer guy got choked out, the Short Axe guy walked through to attack Miriel, iirc.
AI can be pretty weird sometimes. The aggro radii of the enemis here are definitely some kind of custom BS.
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I can go waaaay faster than this, but there's no value in cutting Turns when you're going for reliability. They are extremely short Turns for the most part, one movement or one heal in many cases. I'm just posting the numbers for the lulz, the chapters don't really take much more time than normal.
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You're right about Dual Support+; I really need to have it on a non-healer if I want to see any use out of it at all. So I'm going for the gusto, and taking Miriel down the Mage -> DM -> Troub -> Valkyrie path. If it gets rocky, I'll skip the Troub part and use Lissa there instead. For right now, Miriel is a DM, and Lissa will stay as a Cleric for the time being. I may eventually promote Lissa to a Sage, and then reclass her to Falcoknight as a finisher (purely for the mobility; I don't have a flier for lategame, and that hurt me last time).
Hex and Anathema will be useful for Gregor mostly (he had some accuracy problems during training last time), but it will help the crit-based offense of the other units as well. Between Solidarity, Anathema, and the extremely high Support ranks possible when fighting shoulder-to-shoulder, my team has a lot of listed crit chance with that setup. It can be helpful when dealing with Aegis+ and high DEF units, since my bow team doesn't really have a good answer to that.
Anyway, OP updated with Paralogue 1:
[spoiler=Paralogue 1: Sickle to Sword]
This is a good chapter to catch up on training. Donnel is unsalvageable, naturally, but there are opportunities for Chrom here.
Keys to the chapter: train Chrom, get Avatar to a point where she can reclass, pick up the Rescue staff, remember to keep a Levin Sword handy, and don't get greedy or careless.
I chose to deploy Louise, Miriel, Kellam, and Lissa. Chrom and Donnel crash the party.
The immediate goal is to clear out the starting zone. Frederick can OHKO the nearby thief, possibly with help from a Pair or tonic, so make sure that the thief doesn't have Pavise+ (which is the only reason you might want to reset here). In my case, LouisexChrom can severely injure the nearby Barbarian (with magic or Levin), and if Chrom doesn't finish him off with a Dual Strike, MirelxKellam surely can with Fire/Thunder. Donnel and Lissa can be Paired and moved safely out of the way. The archer will most likely go for Miriel here, which is fine; she can take a hit (Kellam ensures that she will survive even if the archer has Luna+), chunk him a good bit on retaliation, and Lissa heal her back up next Turn.
This leave you with two archers (one wounded), and four barbarians either close by or incoming. There is plenty of running room to the north to kite them backwards, especially since the further enemies will be slowed down by the forests. This allows you to deal with most combinations of possible skills. Beyond that, a few strategic notes for this chapter:
- If you happen to get a map where nobody out of those early enemies has Pass, you can set up a choke pretty easily. The ones that blocks the northern wall entrance on a forest is especially useful.
- Use Frederick mostly to weaken things for other people to kill, but don't be afraid to have him KO something if necessary; there are plenty of enemies on this map.
- Miriel and Avatar are especially good at baiting archers and other 2-range enemies to attack them through the walls. It's easy to make this safe because of Lissa. Abuse it whenever possible (the archers in the boss room are a good place to start; draw them from the right or the bottom).
- Some enemies have an aggro radius that is smaller than their attack range. For example, the even though one of the Barbarians in the "pillar room" has a 2-range weapon, he will not move until you are in attack range of his 1-range partner (at which point they will both move to attack).
- Take care to only attract what enemies that you actually want to fight. They battle in groups, and you don't want to get overwhelmed and force Frederick to have to kill things. Be patient, and peel off loners wherever you can.
I wanted to give the boss to Chrom, but he hits far too hard for that, so it went to Louise instead. I reclassed Miriel to Dark Mage once she hit level 10. Lissa will stay in her base class for now.
Turns: 52
Heroes: Miriel & Kellam
Level HP ST MG SK SP LK DF RS Wlvl Louise 17.39 29 17 13 9 14 17 20 7 C Swd, B Tome Chrom 6.95 24 9 1 12 11 9 9 1 D Swd Frederick 3.05 30 15 2 13 11 6 15 4 D Swd/Axe, A Lnc Lissa 12.56 22 5 12 9 8 16 6 7 B Stf Miriel 3.53 28 2 9 11 12 12 8 12 B Tome Supports B - Louise|Frederick C - Chrom|Sully/Lissa, Louise|Lissa/Chrom/Miriel, Miriel|Kellam, Frederick|LissaI wish I could have gotten Chrom a little bit further along, but I gave him the safest kills that I could. There will be another opportunity to get him some serious training in the next Paralogue. Louise may be able to squeak out one more chapter as a Tactician, we'll see. -
... do people in this thread realize that you don't need to be Paired-up to get Dual Strike/Guards? They are separate mechanics. A unit's Support partner just gets priority for those things, if they exist.
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This is almost like a catchphrase for you, at this point.I don't really understand [...]
Tier lists have nothing to do with it. The conclusion doesn't mean very much of anything at all, since it was a flawed comparison in the first place. Calling one run a "winner", as if it indicated something useful, suggests that one either doesn't understand what they are measuring, or doesn't understand how to compare things properly to begin with.Saying a playthrough is a winner does not mean that Sumia ranks higher than Cordelia on the tier list.
By all means, if your position is that you consider your CordyxSumia comparison to be part of a balanced breakfast, and my strange words about Athos to be a hopeless/ridiculous line of reasoning, I certainly have no incentive to spend any more keystrokes to correct you.
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Excellent. Now that we're at the point where you're flailing and backtracking, it's a sign that this crap is nearly over.I never said anywhere that I consider only two runs, now, did I? I don't consider only two runs when tiering units. That just isn't my philosophy.
From my tier list thread:
Look at what I said earlier:
Notice the use of "can." Not once did I say those are the only two playthroughs considered in tiering a unit. It was merely an alternative to your claim that it's nonsense to compare them where Sumia and Cordelia were used together. Not once did I indicate that they were the only playthroughs I use to judge whether a unit is good or not.
Naturally, your endless parade of failing to understand the "Team" concept was a clever rope-a-dope play, and your butchery of the Athos logic was simply an Oscar-worthy acting performance. The whole time, you were trollface.jpg, surely.
Has a certain finality to it, I'd say.I put the only there on purpose. One can consider a playthrough using only Sumia to see her general contributions to said playthrough, and one can consider a playthrough using only Cordelia to see her general contributions to said playthrough. The playthrough which is more efficient is the winner.
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Because you are not changing a single thing, you are changing two things. The proposal you have outlined has two runs, where it actually needs something like four or five.No it wouldn't. All I am saying is that we should consider how efficient the run was with Sumia present instead of Cordelia, and with Cordelia present instead of Sumia. All other factors would remain equal (same units used as efficiently as possible, and so on). Why would this only work if Sumia or Cordelia were soloing the game?
- Cordelia and Sumia (realistically this could be broken down into further runs on its own)
- No Cordelia, no Sumia
- Cordelia, no Sumia
- Sumia, no Cordelia
The reason a solo run would allow your craziness is that a solo run wouldn't have a team to consider. Literally the only difference would be Cordelia or Sumia, so now your idea becomes valid.
More accurately, you've simply failed to understand it. Consider the possibility that nobody else has corrected you because 1) it's already been adequately explained, and 2) nobody really gives a shit if you're ignorant on this subject.You still have failed to answer this question, and even though you point out others can point out the error in my reasoning, no one has done so.
Although at posting it looks like Redwall took a stab at explaining it to you, and he seems to understand.
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I understand why you chose that method: you think that it will show you the real difference between the units. Now, understand why I'm telling you it's flawed: you are introducing variables with different weights to either side of the equation (taking Sumia out of Cordelia's playthrough, Cordelia out of Sumia's), which lards up your results. The reason it screws up your comparison, is that Fire Emblem is a game with an army of units. Your "only" nonsense would only work if Sumia or Cordelia were soloing the entire run.I put the only there on purpose. One can consider a playthrough using only Sumia to see her general contributions to said playthrough, and one can consider a playthrough using only Cordelia to see her general contributions to said playthrough. The playthrough which is more efficient is the winner.
It's not really my problem if you can't understand it. The concept is pretty simple, and there are probably a half dozen other denizens in the tier list threads that could also explain it.I'll ask you one last time. Why do you think it's nonsense? Just a clear, direct answer will do.
Athos's team would use Marcus in precisely the same way that Marcus's team uses Marcus. There is no advantage to be gained by Athos in this scenario, because he wouldn't re-distribute the kills. Marcus god-stomps Athos in any efficiency tier list because of the weight of his personal contributions.Let's compare Athos and Marcus to see how ridiculous your line of reasoning is.
Marcus comes at the beginning of Chapter 11 and takes all the kills from the beginning of Eliwood's mode till endgame. Only Athos, however, is taking the pre-Endgame kills.
Again, tell it to the guy that's apparently making this argument, because it's not me. Sumia is obviously a net positive, and deserves credit for her early game. That does not mean that she rolls into Ch7 with combat-ready stats for free. Those stats have a cost to the rest of the army, a cost that Cordelia isn't paying because her stats ARE free.Indeed, but Sumia is obviously a net positive, so she has earlygame over Cordelia. Duh.
As I said before, it may be the case that on balance, Sumia is the superior unit overall, but I can tell you it won't be simply because she beats Cordelia in a straight-up battle in Ch7. That's a lazy, hamfisted, cleaver of argument.
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What you said was "You can compare a playthrough in which only Cordelia is used, and a playthrough in which only Sumia is used", which is an entirely differently thing than "compare one playthrough with Sumia, and one playthrough with Cordelia". The sharp reader will note the word "ONLY".Why can't we compare one playthrough with Sumia, and one playthrough with Cordelia? Can you explain why it's nonsense? Is there a contradiction involved or is it just because you don't like it?
And such a thing is nonsense because it doesn't tell you enough about Sumia vs. Cordelia, since Cordelia's army without a token earlygame Sumia performance isn't actually realistic.
No it doesn't; they are not equivalent situations. Sumia and Cordelia share the post Ch7 kills, but only Sumia is taking the pre-Ch7 kills. And adding insult to injury, it's not pure gravy like a Fred kill, it's something necessary for her advancement, so she has to take the EXP.Anyway, the kills Cordelia gains in the playthrough could have gone to someone else instead, as well, so it goes both ways.
Tell that to the guy who disregarded Sumia's earlygame, whoever that was; you seem to have the two of us confused. I'm all for giving credit to Sumia for sitting in Frederick's saddlebags and giving him stats.You can't just disregard Sumia's earlygame contributions by saying Cordelia is already trained and she comes at a later time.
It makes no sense to you because you don't actually understand the logic, as evidenced by your lousy example.By that logic, Athos is the best unit in FE7 because "one of Athos's advantages is that he comes as a trained Archsage with S tomes." It makes no sense. You have a tendency to disregard the importance of availability--I've noticed this in another thread as well.
To turn it into a decent example, Athos is not the BEST unit in FE7, however he's easily better than every other unit that's a net negative to the team (from an efficiency standpoint, not for Ranking). It's easy to see why he's better than Wil, for example, who spends his entire career being a drag on your army. Athos's team simply doesn't deploy Wil, while Wil's team has no such choice. Any respectable tier list is going to have an Athos, Lehran, Giffca etc unit somewhere around that crossover point between the goodish units and the shit ones.
I don't have any One Ring™ standards; it's situational depending on the context. Unlike some people around here, I have the ability to argue under criteria that I don't espouse personally. A unit that's good in HM LTC may be shit in reliability Lunatic+. A good way to measure it is the A's Team vs. B's Team bit from above, but that only works if your criteria isn't shit. Garbage in, garbage out.You know, you haven't offered a way on how you intend to measure whether a unit is good or not. What makes a unit good to you?
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This is almost as bad. Now you're not comparing Sumia to Cordelia, you're comparing +Sumia/-Cordelia to +Cordelia/-Sumia, which is nonsense. Frederick is the greatest unit in the game on Lunatic by that method.You can compare a playthrough in which only Cordelia is used, and a playthrough in which only Sumia is used.
The fact of the matter is, one of Cordelia's advantages is that she comes as a trained Pegasus Knight with C lances. Those 20+ kills that you fed to Sumia, can go to someone else on a team that's intending to use Cordelia after Chapter 7. Believe it or not, that's actually a thing. A lot of what Sumia contributes in the earlygame, can be chalked up to passively making Frederick extra-badass, by either letting him double or getting him somewhere important.
Which is why one does not simply
walk into Mordorcompare martial stats at a single point in time and call it a day. -
Wow, mini-modding a mod; let me get some popcorn.
This is a pretty hamfisted way to do a comparison, honestly.You'd be surprised at how strong Sumia is when Cordelia comes in, thanks to a Frederick support. She can ORKO a lot more than Cordelia does with the high Dual Attack chances.
There's a good chance that you aren't going to have a situation where Cordelia and Sumia are used simultaneously, so comparing their combat stats at Ch7 is sort of nonsense. If you're intending to use Cordelia, a smart strategy is to mostly use Sumia early on for her most useful non-combat contributions (ferrying, Pair-Up, etc). On Cordelia's team, this allows Frederick to last longer, allows you to train another unit, or give more EXP to someone you were already using (like Avatar or Chrom).
Whether these things combined with Cordelia's superior lategame martial stats are enough to put her on top would be a subject for debate, but it's a better way to compare than flopping their stats next to each other on a table in an unrealistic situation.
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Sage to Sorc is a good thought for firepower, but I'm a little concerned about possible advancement speed if I reclass from a promoted class to another one. Going from unpromoted level ten to another unpromoted class only adds 4 cumulative levels, but going from Sage 15 to Sorcerer 1 adds 17 of them, so she'd be getting EXP like a 20/18 unit at 20/15/1. Also I'd miss out on Hex and Anathema unless I put Tharja or Henry out on the field.
I guess in this scenario I would make Lissa my Valkyrie for Dual Support+, though I wouldn't know who to pair her with. Either she'd be an old maid (not a problem, since I wouldn't use Owain anyway), or just hang out with Chrom, I suppose.
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This would definitely be a better argument, since Sumia and Cordelia have nearly identical roles on the team, but are separated by availability/supports/statistics. Sully v. Sumia is one poisoned from the beginning by the assumed supports, if nothing else.Sumia is very good, especially on the higher difficulties, but I'd hardly say she is better than everyone except Avatar no matter what difficulty you are playing on. I agree that Sumia is better than Sully, but I also think that Sumia vs. Cordelia would be a much better and more relevant debate. It would also be easier to gauge since less variables are involved.
But this thread isn't really about Sumia v. Sully anyway. This thread is about 1) wanting to make a tier list argument without putting it in the tier list thread, 2) getting to be the center of attention, and 3) tweaking the casuals who dare question efficiency standards. Real talk.
Sumia is probably better, but it's a fight. Cordelia doesn't enter the battle naked, you know. Her team doesn't have a train a Pegasus Knight, and she herself is more flexible in terms of fitting into a team.Well.. Sumia's gonna be married to Frederick by the time she comes, so the debate doesn't even exist. She has superior availability, supports and stats overall by the time Cordelia comes.
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Setting aside that you're begging the question, you just changed the criteria from "important" to "needed". Sumia is not "needed", but nobody said that except you. She is undeniably important.Nope, not incorrect. If Sumia was needed for earlygame, I would have used her.
There's also another handful that gets what he's saying, but think that it's a pretty banal/useless point. Certainly there's a framework where Sumia is the second best unit in the game. Is this framework useful for anything? Jury's still out.you're preaching to the wrong choir; it looks like there's only a handful of people that get what you're saying
You guys can pair up Sumia with Henry if you wish
but there's no reason to
Breaking news: wanting to do something isn't a reason to do it.if you wish
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I'm not talking about shipping baloney, I'm talking about game mechanics, since that's what this latest Chiki vanity thread is predicated on. They each give exactly what the other wants in a partner; if that's not a perfect support, then nothing is.They're far from being my OTP, so that's your opinion.
This is just factually incorrect. Your PEMN; Sumia enables some seriously useful arcobatics in the early part of the game.Also, Sumia is not important for earlygame.
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Nominating this thread for the Weasel Wording wing of the Strawman Hall of Fame.
I thought it was pretty well established that Sumia is really important in the earlygame, particularly with Frederick. There are always going to be some detractors, but SumiaxFred is OTP, and probably something that rescues her from an otherwise lackluster support list. Her performance arguably puts her above an altogether better unit, Cordelia, just because of those pre-Ch7 contributions.
No news here.
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I'll be doing Paralogue 1 before Ch5; I did test runs of both, and keeping MaribellexRicken alive without a Rescue staff just requires too many things to go my way in terms of enemy skills. The upshot is that Mercenary Louise should be fine there, because of Levin Swords (basically can handle the left hand side by herself).
My current dilemma is what to do with Miriel; she's got nothing but options. Ideally I feel as though I want her to eventually be a Valkyrie for Dual Support+, but there's also an argument for the skills from Dark Mage (since they work even as the Support unit). I could go Mage -> Dark Mage -> Troubadour -> Valkyrie, which gives a ton of Support unit utility, but entails a lot of reclassing. She'd be a decent wife for Gregor, and give me a Laurent with Armsthrift and workable base stats. I could also tap her as the primary Dark Mage/Sorc of the group, or swing through Sage to pick up Tomefaire (to pass to Laurent, most likely).
Currently leaning towards the DM -> Troub path, since it maintains her offense for the next few critical chapters.
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Don't forget Time Travel™. Regardless of their birth time, the children showed up at different points, and aged during the current timeline. "Marth" put on a couple years after showing up in Ch1, for example.
themoreyouknow.jpg
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It's not even +1 unless you're in Lunatic or he procced STR on level-up. Dark Knight gives no class STR from Pair-up, so you just get the 10/20/30 stat bonuses.... It's seriously only one?
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Henry isn't a level 10 tier one unit unless you reclass him first. He starts as a level 12 Dark Mage, with variable stats based on the difficulty mode.
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Perhaps more importantly, would you recognize it if someone did? Evidence suggests "no", since it's already been done here in this thread, and you stubbornly insist that only the greatest thing is a valid choice, there is no shade of gray called "situationally pretty decent" that exists between aforementioned perfection and "hot garbage".Anyway, pairing up Sumia with Henry in an efficiency playthrough is pretty dumb. It can work but why do it when you already have an S support? There's absolutely no reason to. Can anyone name me a good reason why?
You know it's funny, I was going to say something similar about your relationship with hyperbole -- seeing as how it seems that units are either amazing or they are lepers -- and this bit conveniently shows that it's not just limited to Fire Emblem.I've never seen anything come out of Interceptor's mouth (or keyboard) that isn't a personal insult or sophistry, so this post is addressed to anyone that isn't him.
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Geez, you are just plowing through the game, this thread might not even hit a second page. Agreed about DEF asset; it's not better than Veteran, but totally in the conversation for top three broken things, along with Galeforce.
FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List
in Fire Emblem: Awakening
Posted
How the eff are you establishing a Ricken/Kellam support?What's impressive about being 2.5 DEF over what Frederick has in Prologue? There are guys in this chapter that will hit 17 DEF for something like ~24 damage.
Is it alright with you if we first establish that Ricken can actually tank enemies?