Interceptor
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Posts posted by Interceptor
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Not necessarily. And even in the case where they are, Veteran children offer an opportunity to significantly add to whatever fighting force you are fielding (as compared to those without).Even without an Avatar solo, one's units will already be trained [...]
Incidentally, Veteran also exists on Normal, Hard, and Lunatic+.[...] and more than able to take on Lunatic mode.
Yes, your banality about availability; one of those things that's technically true while being useless to the issue at hand. The more pertinent point here, is that Veteran allows late-joiners to be more or less immediately viable as primary combatants, something that's actually helpful.Earlygame is the hardest part of the game, and that's where Veteran is needed most. Even without an Avatar solo, Veteran is needed more in the earlygame than in the midgame or lategame.
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Rather, you're not paying attention to the weapon triangle: I have WTA vs. tangents and non sequiturs.You're better at avoiding the argument than Earth support Oscar is at avoiding attacks.
I'll interpret this as meaning that you've now imagined a world without an Avatar solo. In this world, we are training other units. But along the same lines as a solo, we're able to concentrate resources. Do you see any potential of a pair of instantly-usable child units with Veteran, as compared to children without?There's nothing left to say.
We'll be taking baby steps here, since I don't want to lose you along the way.
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Whew, good thing I didn't make Rebecca, then. She was my second choice. Dodged a bullet!
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Including me. I just told you to consider a world where one isn't soloing with Avatar.No one is saying you have to do an Avatar solo.
None of this relevant to the point.But it still doesn't change the fact Veteran Lucina and Morgan can't allow you to break the earlygame, which is undoubtedly the hardest part as your units aren't trained. Once your units are trained, however, you'll find that the midgame and lategame aren't really as important as having Veteran earlygame.
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This song is not about me.I think you're just trying to avoid answering my question. I'm merely asking you why you think it's important.
Consider a universe where one isn't doing an Avatar solo. There are reasons for it, but they aren't relevant to the point.This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. I'm simply asking you to make your argument rigorous. Why is it that Veteran matters when it makes a unit overpowered if it has no effect on overall performance?
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Alright, let's get this party started.
[spoiler=PARTY TIME]
I've updated the OP. Please feel free to weigh in as I go along, if anyone has feedback/suggestions or whatnot. Here is Prologue:
[spoiler=Prologue: The Verge of History]
And so we begin, with Louise the +DEF/-SKL female Avatar. As with all early Lunatic+ chapters, you are going to be something of a slave to the RNG. Not only for hits/misses, but for skill combinations, and stat level-ups (Avatar really needs HP and DEF in a hurry). Hawkeye, Luna+, Pass, and Vantage+ can all appear here; each can present its own difficulties. The last two tend to be fairly benign, although it can make walling or last-hitting a problem in certain circumstances. If the Elthunder mage up top spawns with Luna+, you may want to reset if you're going to use the water trick.
Keys to this chapter: train Avatar, don't overuse Frederick.
I like to approach this chapter by having Frederick kill the north Mercenary (OHKO, pray that he doesn't have Vantage+ and Luna+), leaving him in position to weaken the nearby Barbarians on Enemy Phase. Chrom can move all the way to the right and down, to stay in range of only the right-hand Mercenary (he will not be doubled, and you may want to equip his Rapier for a better hit rate).
This leaves you an easy clean-up on Turn 2 for Avatar (kill one Barbarian on Player Phase, second on Enemy Phase, and remember to Pair up with Lissa), and Chrom with Frederick as the Support has just enough pepper to finish off the Mercenary he injured on the first Turn. With any luck, the mage is in a position where Avatar with Lissa Support can kite him around with Thunder/Vulneraries for a while to farm up some EXP. Otherwise, you'll need Frederick to kill him.
From here, a useful trick: none of the enemies here can occupy a Water tile. Of your own units, only Chrom and Avatar can move onto water. Therefore, you can pair AvatarxLissa and ChromxFrederick, and have your entire team out of reach of everything except the Elthunder mage. With Lissa giving +2 MAG and +2 RES, Avatar can attract/duel the Mage (use Vulneraries on Player Phase), while ChromxFrederick play rope-a-dope elsewhere to keep the Mercs and Barbs at bay. Once the mage is dead, it's a simple matter to kill off everyone else with Thunder, worry-free.
For the boss, fight using Avatar with Thunder at 2-range. You need 8 SPD to avoid getting doubled, solved by a Pair with Chrom (you may want to unequip him to milk the EXP a little bit longer). He will have listed crit on Avatar, unless she is bracketed on both sides by Lissa and Frederick (which gives enough Support points for +dodge). Make this last as long as you can. Remember to trade items around as needed before you finish the chapter, because you won't get another chance to re-organize until Ch1 starts.
When you finally put Garrick out of his misery, that should be a minimum of seven kills (possibly more) plus the boss that you've fed to Avatar, getting to level 6-7 easily. Done correctly, this should set up the rest of the earlygame chapters.
Turns: 48 (did you think I was kidding when I said I didn't care about Turns?)
Heroes: Loiuse & Lissa
Level HP ST MG SK SP LK DF RS Louise 6.85 23 10 8 5 6 8 11 4 Chrom 1.40 20 7 1 8 8 5 7 1 Frederick 1.30 28 13 2 12 10 6 14 3 Lissa 3.38 18 2 7 5 5 8 4 6In a few more levels, Louise will basically be a second Frederick. -
I wouldn't concede that it has no influence on your overall performance. But to your question, no. If it's not already evident to you that there are things unrelated to your personal metrics that are "important", this 16-bit animated GIF of a dog has scant chance of being able to sufficiently explain it prior to the heat death of the universe.Okay. Care to explain to me why Veteran is important when it has no influence on your overall performance?
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That's your point. This is the view of the acolytes of your religion (you, yourself, and Olwen), but only a subset of Reality™, where Veteran on Lucina/Morgan (and a bunch of other characters, while we are in the neighborhood) actually does make a difference.That's the point: it doesn't. What matters is how well the skill allows your units to affect your overall performance, which is why availability is most important.
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Your claim was that Veteran is best on units with a lot of availability, which might be the most banal observation I've seen all day. My response was, in not so many words, that your imaginary Veteran!Cherche might be better compared to Veteran!Lucina/Morgan, which have the advantage of actually existing in the game. They benefit significantly from the skill, and that matters when you're measuring how good that a skill actually is.That does nothing to counter my claim.
It deserves no response; I don't need to lower myself to fighting for crumbs on the ground when there's a loaf of bread on the table.You have been avoiding this argument for a while now. Care to give me a counterargument for my claim?
Who asked you to stop? It's not against the rules to be shortsighted and/or wrong about something.That doesn't mean I can't state my opinion.
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This is the eternal curse of analogies and metaphors; people who extend them so far that they lose sight of where they came from in the first place.Can you break something that's already broken? You can, but introducing something that's broken into something with other things that break the game is just about pointless. A broken ruler is a broken ruler regardless of breaking it again.
The game is not "broken" like a toy that's smashed on the ground. Veteran as a skill makes Morgan/Lucina significantly more useful than they would otherwise be. One way of determining which skill is "better", would be in the context of comparing other skills relative to this one in this situation.
Veteran beats them all.
I don't like pomegranate Chobani.Now I agree with the Avatar. But bringing up Morgan and Lucina is pointless.
My opinion there has about as much impact on the yogurt industry, as your standard for "pointless" does in the context of this thread. You are a thread, not the weaver.
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This feature is called Pair Up. The other things are Dual Strike, Dual Guard, and Support (which is old). You'll find that losing free stats hurts more than you might expect.Only the Pair Up "two units on same space" stats bonus is optional.
Good news everyone: you can secure stat boosters for that purpose instead. It's not like other games allowed you to easily cap every stat, or that capped stats were required to do well in the first place. If you really want stats but would like to preserve the "single class" feel, just reclass back into your promoted class again once you hit level 20. Right? You still have to do the work.Again, I DON'T want the "Seal to get good stats" option to exist or be forced upon me.
This analogy doesn't work unless you were complaining about the features in the first place. If someone was qq'ing about the grinding possibilties on SS, I'd tell them to... wait for it... not grind.That would be like saying "You can make SS's Normal mode hard if you only use the Lords, the Trainees, and no grinding! Stop complaining that its too easy!"
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In what way does Veteran satisfy this condition that matters to you? That's a question you'll have to ask yourself.Why does that make the game any easier or more efficient for us?
Meanwhile, in the portion of reality that encompasses things beside the ones that you care about personally, Veteran is incredibly useful.
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Remains wrong/shortsighted. Veteran enables a unit like Morgan or Lucina to reclass and level up every time that they kill something. They are quickly able to catch/surpass existing characters.My point that Veteran is only good on high availability characters remains.
It's not because of any innate superpowers, it's because of Veteran.
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Indeed. Veteran is very useful to those units for making them powerful in a hurry. That's what makes it such a good skill.Can they be ridiculous? Sure [...]
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This is not a good example. Morgan and Lucina show up at around the same time, and yes, actually, Veteran can make them ridiculous.I think Veteran is best with units who have a lot of availability. Can you imagine Veteran being so useful with Cherche, when the hard part is gone already?
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Oh please. Maps aside, which is a legitimate issue, everything else here is completely optional for you as a player. Everyone starts in a reasonable class, and has decent stats if you Seal them and level all the way to 20/20. You don't need to use Pair-up at all, you just simply use the adjacent support system and Dual Strike/Guard.While I'm happy that this means there are going to be more FE games... this probably means we're stuck with Second Seals and easy grinding for good now because Nintendo might be afraid to move away from the concepts in this game. I'm fine with a Casual Mode option to bring in more fans, but those two things I just absolutely hate about Awakening. They just can't balance difficultly around their existence properly. Hard is still too easy, Lunatic is way too hard unless you abuse MU and Dark Magic, in which case its very easy once you get past chapter 5. I also feel that it runs a lot of the fun of FE: the risk of units turning out badly, or a unit simply on average not being very good but being there as an option to change up later playthroughts. With Awakening, there's not really any "bad" units in either sense, its just a question of how long it takes them to get good or amazing. Don't even get me started up on Pair Up worsening the previously mentioned balance problems. And what about the other features, will they try to shoehorn in child units every time someway, or the extremely wide range of marriage options at the cost of a number of convos feeling flat?
I'm also afraid they won't bother trying to bring back their maps back to a higher standard. Awakening's maps are all very weak, but the new fans won't really realize that. Honestly, I don't know if I would buy another Awakening style FE. There are just too many downfalls to me: for the ones in NA I only consider it better than SS and SD, with it beating out SS solely due to the DLC. Do we really want Awakening to be the new standard for FEs just because its what saved the series? Or more directly: is the series worth saving if we're stuck with Second Seals and Pair Up? I honestly don't know. I love the series, but hate the new direction.
Play Hard without any of the things that you just complained about, and tell me that it's too easy.
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Poll shouldn't be as close as it is. Veteran is ridiculous.
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Well, my first Lunatic+ clear was no-grind, so I think it should be alright. The last four chapters plus Endgame were sort of annoying, but I basically cleared them with just two unit pairs: Sniper Avatar (Support Chrom) and Warrior Morgan (Support Lucina). Chrom was promoted but not a great combatant, and Lucina was half-trained (enough to deal 12 damage a hit to Grima on a Dual Strike). My two Lead units had capped combat stats.Woah, no grind L+???
No grind seems like it would be theoretically impossible to finish the later chapters though. Feel free to splurge on some of the spotpass characters (Innes comes as a lvl 12, Dual Guard+ Sniper)
So if I could pull it off with that, I think that this better-planned run should be easier.
When I say "Spotpass teams" I basically just mean buying items from them; I don't intend to recruit anyone, unless for some reason I need extra cannon fodder. I expect that I'll want some early Physic and Levin Swords. Also opens up the option to have Mire prior to Ch21.Just as long as they aren't much higher levelled, like Clair, Florina for instance are ok to use. Plus more Veteran characters are always a good thing.
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Anyone who doesn't have a bow and good stats is probably going to wind up as a Support bot or bench-warmer.
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Don't blame me, bro.Int kind of made me lean towards Lunatic, so let's do that instead, shall we?
Seconded the +DEF/-LCK Avatar. -SKL also a potentially good flaw. +HP is a nice asset for the earlygame, but +DEF asset is almost as good and pays off better late.
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Well, Chrom and Avatar are guaranteed S-rank support in this run. Lucina and Morgan are both going to have Veteran and pretty good base stats.
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I'll keep all of those in mind. I'd like to avoid training too many Support units if I can, since things will get pretty ugly if my Lead units fall behind, so the best options will be the ones who are Good Enough™ at base.
Not sure what is going to happen with Chrom. I need to get him to level 10 for Charm, but after that, it doesn't matter what I do with him. If his stats are looking OK, I might even make him a Lead unit. Certainly I don't have a lot of potential earlygame units being trained aside from Avatar, so he is a good option to stash some EXP away. Maybe a second life as a triangle-controlling GK is the way to go.
Nice thing about effective weapons in this run, is that there isn't going to be huge pressure to kill quickly in the early Valm chapters. There's a narrow corridor to defend in Ch12, a ramp in Ch13, a plank in Ch14, and desert and a 2-wide entryway in Ch15. It only starts getting stupid in Ch16... I'm hoping that by that point, Morgan is good enough to shoulder some of the burden.
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Let's not get crazy, here; Fire Emblem story and character development doesn't have a long way to fall. Shakespeare it is not, no matter how far back you go.I am somewhat...conflicted about Fire Emblem's rise in popularity.
I think it's great that the Fire Emblem series will thrive with many new fans added to the mix. On the other hand, I'm worried that IS will simplify the characters, story and gameplay to run-of-the-mill anime and JRPG standards. =/
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I'm not opposed to it, but Counter introduces some reliability problems. It's pretty easy for even Nosferatu users to kill themselves on Enemy Phase. At least it doesn't cost anything to add one if I have a Mire user.YESSSSS.
Are you using Nosferatu?
I don't think that DLC will be necessary for completion. It wasn't used on my first Lunatic+ run, which was sort of poorly planned, so for me to need it for this one I'd have to derp pretty hard.I will follow this as long as you don't use any DLC. Everything else is fair game as long as I'm concerned.
EDIT: and by "DLC" I mean the Outrealm Gate. I'll be using the other Wireless features like Spotpass teams and Bonus Box.
The Veteran and Aptitude Thread
in Fire Emblem: Awakening
Posted
Or in other words, it's devastating to your case. In reality, the midgame arrival of a pair of Veteran units with a huge suite of reclass options is a godsend in Lunatic+. You cannot Nosferatank your way through that meatgrinder.
Why not have more? It's entirely possible that Morgan is still better over the rest of the game than some of your trained units.
This is adorable. Do you know what a "truism" is? It's in the dictionary, and there's no shame in cheating. After we're on the same page there, see if you can understand why I think your truism is irrelevant to the discussion.