[FE:A US sales now total 240,000]

Plus, Tharja makes the whole group look ridiculous because she makes absolutely no effort to hide that she is evil. She openly attacks people. She is merely creepy because the party somehow ignores a chronic backstabber.

Is it not OK to enjoy laughing at ridiculous things? Tharja is completely irrelevant to the story, and largely fills the Oliver role in this game.

No, your "simple" wording is not the same as your main wording. It's different or is adding to your argument

Consider the possibility that you misunderstood it in the first time.

[FE:A US sales now total 240,000]

You're oblivious and probably isolated.... I wonder why I know what I'm talking about due to being in Japan, having buddies, and socializing a lot (in Japanese). Also playing lots of Japanese games that's in Japanese.

Here's a fact: Check out the otaku/fans that buys a lot. The Japanese anime/manga/culture market itself is "HUGE".

Hoo boy, looks like I have to use simple words here.

I'm not calling into question your credentials (I am sure that they are impeccable, and that you have the Prime Minister on speed-dial), or suggesting than Japanese people aren't xenophobic (because they are); I am making the point that the worldwide gaming market is bigger than Japan's. Apparently this is controversial. Who knew?

Well, I guess couldn't do it after all. Sorry, use a dictionary.

Says the guy whining a lot about feet (which is much simpler than "tentacle demons") on FE: Awakening....

Hey, all I said was to be careful about asking questions that you don't really want to know the answer to.

[FE:A US sales now total 240,000]

Yay, Fire Emblem is finally on the rise. And all it needed to do,is to sacrifice any sense of decency.

And by "sacrifice any sense of decency", you mean "deliver mechanics that people enjoy". If sexing up a title was enough to make it move, I think that Agarest would have blown the doors off the world.

As it turns out, people actually give a shit about fun gameplay.

[FE:A US sales now total 240,000]

Hmm... I wonder why the "style" is "popular" in Japan and other fans.

Who knows? It's the country that gave us tentacle demons. Sometimes it's better to not ask too many questions.

Do note that they don't really care for foreigners or focus on their opinions/views.

They can hold their noses all they like; they have no industry unless they also sell games that smelly gaijin will buy, since the worldwide market is bigger than Japan's.

If you don't like it and it bugs you so much that you gotta mention it, don't bother to play a JRPG game.

I have a counter proposal: I'll complain about it to my heart's content, because I'm entitled to express disappointment with things that I don't like, and still play JRPGs regardless. If this bothers anyone, I have a coping mechanism that involves sunglasses.

[FE:A US sales now total 240,000]

I already mentioned this at another thread but you do realize the style is quite similar to the Final Fantasy DS games (but way better graphics/details), right?

Zero shits given about years-old handheld remakes of ancient Square titles. This is Sparta Fire Emblem.

It's sad that there's people making a big fuss over the feet in FE: Awakening and quite oblivious on other different previous dated games.

If something is dumb, it's dumb. Gamers expect developers to raise the bar for quality, otherwise we'd still be playing Pong.

[Yay Awakening playlog time]

Concrete DEF is one of those things where the Rally bonuses aren't that great unless you already have a good base to work with. It's "whatever" if you only go from 2HKOed to 3HKOed, but if a unit was already fairly tanky (even something like 5HKOed) it can make them basically invincible. Easier to get there if you combine it with a DEF tonic/support, as well.

Same concept that makes Kellam really good earlygame as a support unit.

[FE:A US sales now total 240,000]

Good. I hope that the people at IS are swimming around in a giant pool full of money, Scrooge McDuck style, because I want more of this kind of Fire Emblem. Maybe next time they can afford feet.

[Apparently there were additional polls in Knights of Iris besides character popularity]

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who went Vaike/Miriel. It's total nonsense gameplay-wise, but such a fun support.

[Tiering Philosophy - It's that time again]

The problem with claiming that 'the only thing needed for it to work is that the tier steward not be a dumbass' is that it's shoving an undue amount of responsibility onto the tier steward and forcing them into a position where they have to make a judgement call on every argument, but they are still people.

Nobody said that they had to be the forum incarnation of Jesus; even a flawed curator can keep things moving in the right direction. Never mind that even in the case of a Reign of Terror™, tier lists are the easiest thing in the world to fork. As long as there are at least a few people who prefer this style, that's the way that it will go; there's no need to start clutching pearls and reaching for the whiskey.

[MercuryHg34's FE: Awakening Playthrough (Hard)]

The only other realistic option that I can think of would be Lon'qu, as long as you get him 6 levels and 4 SPD off his bases (best SPD support for Nowi once promoted to Swordmaster). That would be a rougher defensive start, and underwhelming for Dual Strikes, but no doubling issues for Nowi. He's already claimed, though.

[MercuryHg34's FE: Awakening Playthrough (Hard)]

Gregor is N.O.W.I.'s best support partner, and it's not even close.

You can get them to C by the end of her joining chapter, and he gives her exactly what she needs (SPD and DEF). Gregor never has to be the Lead unit ever. Your options with him are Seal to Hero (for Axes and slightly better DEF support), or Seal to Bow Knight (sneaky good once you no longer need the DEF on Nowi, since it gives her +1 MV and Gregor as the Support unit is in no way impaired by using bows).

[The Lunatic Club]

^ Give Nowi a DEF support (Gregor is best, since also +SPD), possible DEF tonic at first to get started, and reclass her back to Manakete every time she hits level 30.

[Tiering Philosophy - It's that time again]

Now see why I feel it needed to have built-in checks and balances into tiering philosophy so that it can't ever be reduced down to LTC?

No, since the only thing required to keep this from happening is that the tier list steward not be a dumbass.

[The Lunatic Club]

Wait, you trained Nowi but not Gregor on Lunatic+?

Nothing wrong with that I suppose, I just thought Gregor was a bit more Lunatic+-friendly.

But if you're using Nowi, good for you.

No, that was regular Lunatic. I was commenting on Pair Ups in general, in terms of distribution of EXP.

Although I will probably use Nowi on Lunatic+, because why not.

[The Lunatic Club]

I feel like it's situational.

With a setup like NowixGregor, you always want Nowi to be the Lead unit anyway, and the loss of a couple stat points here or there due to Gregor lack of training doesn't matter (plus he can be fitted with effective mt weapons). But in the case of a Pegasus paired with a Cavalier or something, it's useful to be able to swap to the land-based unit, so that you use flight to move around, but retain the ability to drop bow weakness for Enemy Phase. although I suppose in that case, you can get most of the effectiveness (first Turn flight) just by training the Cavalier.

[MercuryHg34's FE: Awakening Playthrough (Hard)]

Seems like Michelle (because SKL flaw) or Ricken (because Ricken) would be the best places for the Secret Book. Either of them having accuracy issues? I'd lean towards Ricken, since Veteran lets you power through stat deficiencies.

[Yay Awakening playlog time]

Oh, do units not get weapon rank from fighting Spotpass teams? Is that only a Lunatic thing? Because I could swear I've gotten weapon levels from support grinding in hard mode.

If so, awesome. Well, for this purpose.

It's a Lunatic thing. Hard mode Spotpass fights give WExp and meaningful EXP. Lunatic's anti-grinding mechanic is apparently your accidentally-useful Support bakery.

[Yay Awakening playlog time]

Damn it, these enemies keep getting in my way of Str and Def Tonics.

I like buying in bulk for this reason. Useful to keep a stack of 4-5, more for the good ones like SPD. They are cheap enough, imo.

But got a Micaiah's Pyre. Use y/n?

N, Pyre is basically B-rank magic that you wouldn't normally get until after Valm.

Lissa and Libra still can't even build a C. Grr...I'm not liking the look of this. I don't like the idea of grinding out a support between two main team units, but I want to do Owain's map when the enemies are level-appropriate, and I only have [Ch 12, Ch 13, Par 12] left. Thoughts?

Spotpass support grinding? You wouldn't have to worry about making them over-leveled, since everything gives 1 EXP. Just throw Lissa on Libra, and go give Leonardo what-for or something.

[Tiering Philosophy - It's that time again]

Complexity is simply defined as the number of calculations required in order to clear a chapter quickly. For example, it's very simple and straightforward to clear 1-P, but it isn't so simple to clear 4-4. Cutting a turn from a chapter with higher complexity is more valuable than cutting a turn from a chapter with lower complexity, as more calculations are required to do it. [...] Complexity is not difficulty. The number of calculations often go together with how difficult a chapter is (which is a subjective term), but complexity is objective and can be measured. For example, I consider 1-P the hardest chapter whereas 4-4 the most complex, despite 1-P having the lowest complexity in the entire game.

Just so you know, difficulty is what snowy is talking about, regardless how you interpret his support of your proposal. He hasn't changed his theme song in five years.

Your complexity idea has a lot of problems. I won't go into detail, since it appears that Redwall is on the job.

Let me put it this way: why move quickly when you can move very quickly? Why is moving quickly, an arbitrary, ad hoc term, better than moving as quickly as possible? Surely moving as quickly as possible would serve your purpose better. It would expose the real gaps between units as much as possible, like durability and mobility, am I right?

Moving as quickly as possible doesn't serve the purposes of the tier list "better". The end game is not turn counts, and it's not perfectly objective conclusions. It is discussion, argument, consensus, entertainment. The rules/guidelines exist to frame the playing field, and the "efficiency" imperative exists to force a particular style of play.

Citing players around here and how they improved certain skills thanks to tier lists isn't evidence of the claim that tier lists are intended for casual players. What does that have to do with anything? That's just an invalid argument. The conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought that this was a non sequitur duel. The point was made earlier that tier lists are not character guides or places for newbie advice (which is true), but after this nugget made it through your RDF, somehow that became "tier lists are not for casual players". How on earth did you get from point A to point B?

Tier lists are threads that anyone can take part in, regardless of qualifications, and casuals are free to make contributions just like anyone else. Sure, they may not be able to make the fully complete arguments, due to inexperience, but anyone can pick up the banner and run with it.

Never mind that the concept of a tier list being "intended" for a certain type of person is hilariously elitist. Is there some central Tier List Authority around that awards accreditation? Maybe there's a badge that you can display prominently on the OP of qualifying tier list thread?

Generally, the reason why casual players shouldn't care about tier lists is because the goals of tier lists are for certain goals and those goals don't match up with the goals of casual players (which is generally getting strong units and having fun). Tier lists are made for people like me, and that's all their purpose is.

Tier lists are about many things, and casuals can certainly be interested in any of those things. They are a good place if you like to debate with people, learn new tricks, participate in theoretical discussions, play a game you enjoy with other people under the same framework, etc.

And yes, it's even a place where people who think that the world revolves around them can come to feel superior to everyone else.

[Yay Awakening playlog time]

Oh, also, throwing Anna in because she's fucking Anna. I might do some Anna x Tiki.

It's a pretty good pairing, comes recommended, although training Tiki without a +DEF support can be a bit of a lift.

[Tiering Philosophy - It's that time again]

Here's my thread on complexity (which I at least was first to define in my own way)

Do everyone a favor and summarize it, so nobody has to wade through four pages of you figuring out what your point is.

"Aiming for low turns" is absolutely arbitrary. How low should we aim? It's a completely vague claim and I can't really make any sense of it at all.

This is a common complaint of people who don't understand that turn counts are not the point. Minimizing turns is not done for the sake of an adorably low number, it's done to force a particular style of play. There isn't much difference between units when you can turtle in a corner all day long, but moving quickly tends to expose the real gaps between them; it makes things like durability and mobility actually matter.

Anyone who says things like "X shaves Y turns" is missing the point of caring about turns in the first place. This is the sort of thinking that leads to such idiocy as The Chapter 1-P Eddie Argument™.

As noted earlier, tier lists aren't intended for casual players.

The hell they aren't. Tier lists are intended for the participants, which certainly can (and has) include casual players. Some of the better players around here honed their playing/debating skills in tier lists.

Tier lists expect perfect play. I see no reason not to go for lowest turns possible--assuming reliability and complexity. It would be stupid to include strategies like Magic Sword Ike in tier lists.

Tier lists expect perfect play to eliminate "but what if the tier player makes a mistake" baloney arguments. Assuming a perfect player (given things that are possible for a player to know: the RNG is obviously excluded) allows an even plane on which to discuss things. This means that we can talk about Pegasus bow weakness in the context of limitation of freedom for a unit to maneuver, rather than "oops I got Sumia killed by accident".

EDIT:

Also, Int, I don't see how tier lists lack context in any way, shape, or form unless the debaters intentionally make it lack that context.

Try opening your eyes, then. The only thing that a tier list tells you about Ike is where he placed relative to his peers. It contains precious little about the "why".

[Tiering Philosophy - It's that time again]

You clearly don't understand what it is. Complexity isn't difficulty; it can be objectively measured. One can measure the number of calculations that take place.

The greater the number of perfect decisions = the greater complexity is.

You must be new here. This argument isn't about complexity, it's about difficulty: I've been arguing this point with snowy since Radiant Dawn was a new game.

But regardless, taking it at face value, complexity can certainly be objectively measured, so long as everyone agrees on the number/weight/breakdown of the component parts, which is to say that it can't be objectively measured in any sort of realistic scenario ever.

Are you kidding me?

[Tiering Philosophy - It's that time again]

Tier lists are not character guides -- for the millionth time -- because they lack any sort of useful context for players. Taking complexity into account is nonsense under these circumstances. It's better to just assume that a fictional tier player makes perfect decisions, because that's something that can actually be objective.

[The Lunatic Club]

The random thing wouldn't be so bad (strictly speaking, it does make things interesting) if they just had some basic controls on how often that certain skills/combinations showed up.

[FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List]

Morgan is definitely the second-easiest child to tier, since his Paralogue has 1) crappy enemies, 2) Naga's Tear, and 3) isn't a Rout.

But eventually the child Paralogues are going to be a thing. I completely skipped over Kjelle, Cynthia, Severa, and Nah (I also avoided Tiki, now that I think of it) in my run. Realistically, that would have given other members of the army that were behind (Sully, Cordelia, etc) a chance to make up some ground with kills... but there's still 7 other Paralogues that I didn't even unlock.