[The fandom treats Flayn as a joke and it's harming her image]

4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If the worst that anyone can think of is "meme", then. . .my goodness.

I'm still trying to figure out whether or not it's worth keeping this topic open.

I vote no. It seems like he only started this thread to swing his broomstick at some strawmen.

[The fandom treats Flayn as a joke and it's harming her image]

19 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

No, I specifically said Flayn x Byleth. I assumed that's what you referred to when you mentioned shipping art.

Fair enough, but my post mentioned all the different Flayn artwork you'd see, not just shipping. Which should be more than enough to prove that you aren't the only person in the world who sees Flayn as anything but a Seteth meme.

[The fandom treats Flayn as a joke and it's harming her image]

1 hour ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

Actually yes, I am responsible for the majority of Flayn x Byleth art, not drawn but commissioned. So with that you'd have to conclude her "legion of fans" is really just me alone. If not for me, almost none of it would exist.

You expect us to believe that the entire internet's worth of Flayn art is all because of you? Nobody could possibly make such a definitive claim. So you're either straight up lying or wildly exaggerating.

1 hour ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

Someone makes a flippant comment and I give a flippant reply, but clearly I'm the one in the wrong. Okay.

Well, you don't seem very open to having a discussion here. You're just childishly ranting about how nobody else but you appreciates Flayn (which is far from true) and if someone tells you otherwise you jump all over them and tell them they're wrong. You're basically setting yourself up to be ridiculed.

23 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

They all have people who draw them in wedding dresses and kissing Byleth, and people who are happy to share such pics while saying how beautiful the art is.

Right, because the best measure of a character's popularity is the amount of people who ship them with Byleth. By your reasoning I must hate Dorothea because I ship her with Petra.

28 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

I don't think I'm asking too much by wishing there were other people who shared my love of Flayn; who I could discuss her with and share the things I've gotten of her and appreciate them on the same level

Well considering you seem to have a near cult-worship of Flayn, I don't think there's anyone who appreciates her on the same level. That hardly means everyone else hates her, though.

[The fandom treats Flayn as a joke and it's harming her image]

2 hours ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

At least with those characters you can say those quirks are theirs. The Angry Seteth meme is just that, a Seteth meme, reflecting what I said about how Flayn is viewed not as her own character but an extension of him. At least with the fish thing you can say that's an exaggeration of Flayn's quirk.

In all fairness, part of that is because Seteth and Flayn are so frequently thought of as a "pair" of characters that most people immediately think of them both rather than one or the other. You see the same exact thing happen with Seteth. You'd think Flayn's the only person he ever talks or cares about the way people joke about him. That's just a common side effect when you have two characters who are almost always seen or mentioned together.

2 hours ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

 Also worth mentioning is, with all of those characters' detractors who do nothing but meme them, they also have legions of people who love and respect them outside of any jokes or memes. Flayn cannot claim the same luxury.

Do a Google image search on Flayn. Unless you drew all that fanart and shipping art and stuff I could've gone without seeing, this simply isn't true.

39 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I hate Micaiah and have absolutely no respect for her whatsoever

Same. I don't like Felix at all and I have no respect for him as a character.

23 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

You act like I'm the only person in this fanbase who loves and is genuinely passionate about a character (and you know that's not the case).

We all have our favorite characters, yes. But you're choosing to single out Flayn as some sort of protected class that nobody should ever be allowed to joke about. All while pretty much turning a blind eye to other characters who get treated exactly the same way. You're Flayn-stanning, basically.

29 minutes ago, LelouchUzumaki said:

From the sound of that you seem like the exact type of person this pertains to. Why treat characters with seriousness and consideration when they can all be le funny maymays?

And this is where I stop taking your topic seriously.

[The fandom treats Flayn as a joke and it's harming her image]

Yeah, unfortunately that's true of a lot of characters (Leonie, Ingrid, Marianne and even Dimitri to name a few). Certain parts of the fanbase like to treat their personality quirks or something they did once like it's their entire character. You hear people all the time saying stuff like "Leonie can't go five seconds without randomly bringing up Jeralt" or "Dimitri regularly murders children." Flayn's far from alone in that regard. The one that really gets under my skin is the treatment of Dorothea. I've seen a lot of fans talk about her like she's some kind of gold digging sex addict who slept her way into the monastery just to screw a bunch of rich guys (forgetting that she's into women too) and walk away with their money. Some people even change her backstory of being an opera singer to being a stripper or prostitute. But anyone who's actually played 3H and watched Dorothea's supports knows that, aside from her habit of flirting with people, she's not like that at all. The important thing is to remember that the people who make those comments aren't the entire fanbase, or even the majority in most cases. There's always gonna be a fringe that hates on a character or turns them into a walking punchline for no reason. But I'm sure that if you seriously asked someone their opinion of Flayn (or Dorothea, or Leonie, etc.), you wouldn't just get a lame joke answer. Yeah, I think there are a few memes that really shouldn't exist, but I don't think any of them actually go so far as to completely ruin a character's image.

[Lysithea's Gambit - SRPG Studio Project (In Progress)]

37 minutes ago, Jules Necrofantasia said:

Since it's indeed the case, I would definitely like to build Edelgard and Hubert in.

Ooh, nice! I loved Edelgard's support chain with Lysithea! El showing her caring big sister side with Lyssie was such a sweet (pun intended) moment between the two of them, considering what they both suffered at the hands of TWSITD. I like to think that they stayed friends after the war, even though Lysithea had to return to House Ordelia. Still sending each other cakes from time to time and killing Agarthans and such.

1 hour ago, Jules Necrofantasia said:

Actually a route split was only planned in the case Lysithea having a child. As mentioned before they would be separated since birth (would include a timeskip then) and meet again about 14 years later. Would be a 

If a timeskip isn't desired, I would have an idea for a split for maybe 1-2 maps which will trigger the ending.

As mentioned in the OP I don't tend to make a big project due to the lack of freetime. Six chapters as mentioned in the OP is hardly executable storywise, but my plan was to have multiple events per map to have some story built in. 

I'm still working on my script, and I have no idea, if I can execute my ideas since I'm totally new to the SRPG Studio.

I personally like the idea of a route split rather than a timeskip. It's your story though, so don't feel like you have to make any decisions you don't want to. In the end it's whichever way you feel works best.

[Lysithea's Gambit - SRPG Studio Project (In Progress)]

12 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

There will be a download.  Releasing an SRPG Studio project creates a folder containing the game executable and everything else it needs to run.  To distribute it, you can put the game folder into a ZIP file, then upload it wherever you want people to be able to download it from.  Getting the game to run is as simple as extracting the contents of said ZIP file into another folder, going into that folder, and double-clicking the game executable to boot it up.

Perfect, thanks!

9 hours ago, Sooks said:

Crimson Flower would definitely be the route for that, what with people widely knowing of the Agarthan’s existence and the empire being sort of at war with them.

Also, CF's the only route where Byleth can actually become Count Ordelia. On AM and VW/SS, he's appointed the new Archbishop and House Ordelia pretty much fizzles out when Lysithea marries him.

If the Agarthans are involved, though, I wonder if we'll see some familiar faces from the Empire. Maybe Hubert? After all, the Empire's "war" with TWSITD is something he's been planning for quite a while.

Quote

Hubert: They are looking down on us. They think we cannot touch them. But the closer we get to them, the less true that becomes. Just look at this weaponry we received as a token of their appreciation. It would be impossible for us to manufacture such a piece with our current tools and knowledge. It is not as powerful as a Relic, but it is nearly so. We will keep them close, for now, while we still need their strength to rule Fódlan. Once Fódlan is united, however, the focus of this war will shift. Rather than swords clashing on the battlefield, it will be knives cutting in the darkness. Lady Edelgard's war will be over, and House Vestra's will begin. We who rule the shadows will eradicate those who slither in the dark. When that time comes, Professor, you will be quite useful to us.

It would be interesting to see how this all ties in with Lysithea's own struggle with the remnants of TWSITD. Maybe they'll work together at some point in the story?

Also, just a Fashion Emblem question, but do you think anybody will look different two years after 3H? I'm mostly asking because this would be a perfect chance for Guyleth to clean up his look a little and ditch the emo bowlcut and permanent scowl.

[Lysithea's Gambit - SRPG Studio Project (In Progress)]

15 hours ago, Jules Necrofantasia said:

The story will take place two years after the final of Three Houses. Lysithea and Byleth are married and she just gave birth to her daughter, Madeleine. In the prolog Lysithea will be the protagonist. After that a timeskip is going to happen and Byleth (in the mid  / late 30s) and Madeleine will be playable. I already have an idea for the end (multiple endings). Everything between is pretty much free. I don't know, if it will answer you the question enough.

Which route are you thinking it'll take place after? That'll give me an idea of which character I'd like to submit.

If you're open to ideas, I think it would be interesting to see your story take place after Crimson Flower. Lysithea's an Alliance noble who lent her strength to the Empire and helped Edelgard achieve her dreams for Fodlan, but the Alliance territories, including Ordelia, are still struggling to regain their footing after the war and adjust to the new Fodlan. Lysithea of course, as Countess Ordelia and the overachiever she's always been, wants to do everything she can to keep the influence of her noble house alive and play an active role in supporting her friend's new government. That's just one idea, though. I'm really interested to hear more about this project. Lyssie's one of my favorite 3H characters and I love the idea of giving her a game of her own. I think she'll make a fantastic lead and I can't wait to see how her story plays out. When the game becomes available, is it gonna be playable online or will there be a download of some sort? Sorry if that's a dumb question. I don't really know a lot about how fan games work.

[First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions]

3 hours ago, Aethelstan said:

Giving an update for whoever still cares. I've made it to Chapter 10 and haven't lost anyone. I took everyone's advice and narrowed my team down to all the Blue Lions except Dedue, plus Ferdinand, Leonie, Lysithea and Caspar. I'm debating switiching Seteth into my main team when I get him.

I made Ferdinand my Dancer and he's been broken. Using him feels like Lewyn from FE4. Everything except a few assassins have less than a 20% chance of hitting him. I also got Seal Speed from his budding talent so he was great at helping Ashe and Leonie get kills after weakening units on enemy phase. I used to always use Dorothea as my dancer for the linked attack boost with meteor but in terms of utility I now think Ferdinand is more valuable. Being able to dance frontline fighters in dangerous locations and not have to worry gives you much more flexibility. Also Ferdie looks godly in the dancer outfit.

I know many people recommend getting Mov +1 for Dancer Ferdinand but I just gave him the movement stat booster and I'm interested in hearing what other skills might be useful. I'm kind of thinking Alert Stance to help with the few enemies Ferdie is still struggling to dodge. But not sure it's best because I almost always find it more useful to dance another unit rather than wait. Please give me suggestions.

Also do people usually make Annette a WR before the timeskip? I don't have a Bolt Axe or Crusher yet but she does know Lightning Axe and can kill with it, she would just be useless/vulnerable on enemy phase having to rely on her bad strength if I lost access to her magic right now. But I know flying movement can be useful for Chapter 13. That was my original idea behind WR Ashe, I'm just less worried about him now.

I get why people dislike Ashe. He certainly took a lot of investment. But A) His chip damage was an absolute necessity for me many times in the early game where many units could not afford to take damage on player phase but could kill in one hit with a combat art after chip damage and B) After getting Death Blow and Bowfaire from Sniper he's become of my better units. He would really appreciate having Hunter's Volley but I don't think he's bad without it, just not amazing.

Appreciate all the help thus far! 

Glad we could help! And thanks for putting up with our bickering lol

If you decide to train up Dedue, he functions well as a War Master to help his doubling issues slightly or a Vengeance spamming Paladin/Wyvern as a substitute for Bernadetta.

Dancer Ferdie's lots of fun to use, and he's sure to be a huge help on some of the more crowded Blue Lion maps (looking at you, Enbarr), especially on Maddening. As for skills, I find Sword Prowess, Sword Avoid +20, Axebreaker, Movement +1 and Special Dance to be the best combo for Dancers. Alert Stance, as Barren pointed out, isn't an ideal choice since Ferdie should be dancing every turn.

Yeah, Ashe isn't all that impressive unfortunately. No fault of his own, he's just forced to compete with Leonie who's got so much more to offer. I still like to use him though. Like you said, he doesn't suck, he's just not amazing. I typically build him as a Sniper to take advantage of its Dex growth and Hunter's Volley. A nice setup for him is Bow Prowess, Death Blow, Hit +20, Close Counter and Dex +4 with a Critical Ring and a high crit battalion like Fraldarius or Goneril. His Str will always be middling unless you stuff him full of Rocky Burdocks and Energy Drops, but a crit from him should be enough to kill most normal enemies. Of course, Wyvern's always another solid choice thanks to his axe boon.

Anyway, enjoy the rest of your run! 🙂

[First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Still, technically an argument against Dancer Ferdinand/Sylvain.

That's true. If someone's aiming to get the most uses out of Swift Strikes, then they're definitely gonna want a Dancer that isn't Ferdie, like Marianne. My point was more that Dancer Ferdie won't leave that big a gap if you're content with just one or two Swift Strikes uses per turn.

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

And, how many Swift Strikes can we get?

Say we're fielding Sylvain, Ferdinand, and Seteth, all with Swift Strikes. Dancer Marianne. And Manuela, with Dance-of-the-Goddess.

The Swift Strikers attack, we get three. Marianne dances for Sylvain, we get four. Manuela gambits them all. Three more attacks, up to seven. Marianne dances for Seteth, we're at eight.

So with proper prep and placement, it's possible to use Swift Strikes eight times in one turn.

Possibly even more if we bring in someone like Mercedes with the Blue Lion Dancers.

• Sylvain, Ferdie and Seteth attack, that's three.
• Marianne dances Sylvain, four.
• Mercedes gambits them all, seven.
• Marianne dances Seteth, eight.
• Manuela gambits them all, eleven.
• Marianne dances Ferdie, bringing us to a total of twelve.

I'm actually tempted to try out this memetastic strategy now lol

Proceeds to no-Elites bum rush Nemesis

[Thoughts on Age of Calamity (Spoilers, btw)]

51 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. That's interesting to read. I heard the sound the egg makes to go back in time is the Song of Time, but doesn't the Song of Time require the Ocarina in order to work? 

I can't remember if Terrako played the song to go back in time at the beginning, but I know it didn't in the scene where it summons the four "new Champions" from the future. Not that it makes sense either way, since you're right about the Song of Time needing the Ocarina to work.

Oh yeah, and Terrako not only has the power to go back in time but also pull people from the future through a wormhole. Good thing that's what little 5 year old Zelda decided to program it to do and not, like, toast waffles or something lol

[Thoughts on Age of Calamity (Spoilers, btw)]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

My current theory originates from one particular word that a lot of people have been using as a metaphor to describe the plot: fanfiction. The story in Age of Calamity does have a lot of parallels to the kind of fanfiction where the fanfic writer tries to "fix" something they see as wrong with the original; usually in the form of giving their favourite characters a happier ending. When a canon piece of media has a story that reads like one of those types of fanfics, from what I've seen, it's usually a story that has been written with one thing in mind: fanservice, and what could be more fanservice-y than an AU story where everyone gets to have a happy ending?

The sad thing is, it's not even a particularly good "fix fic". There's ways to change the outcome of the story without resorting to something as cliche as time travel. Especially since the source of whole the time travel element isn't even an established thing in BotW. Why does this tiny toy Guardian that nobody's ever seen or mentioned before have a built-in time machine of all things? God only knows.

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Adding time travel and a heroic Kohga added a good 6 characters.

To be fair, adding a "villain mode" side story would've given us a playable Kogha too, along with Sooga and Astor. And that would be a lot more believable than the guy who basically walks around with an Evil inc. business card suddenly turning unironically good.

[Thoughts on Age of Calamity (Spoilers, btw)]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I can't review anything about the game itself as I haven't played it, but if I did play the game, I wouldn't be able to separate the game from the marketing that surrounded it, so I'm going to share my thoughts on that:

There's no getting around that this game was falsely-advertised. I've seen many attempts at refuting that claim, and they have all been easy to disprove. Yes, no one at Nintendo said the exact sentence, "This game is a direct prequel to Breath of the Wild", but there are many ways to say, "this game is a direct prequel" without saying the word, "prequel", and Nintendo's marketing made a lot of those statements.

For an example, if you go on Nintendo's website for the game, even now it still says stuff like the following:

Before release, how is anyone supposed to interpret this as anything other than, "this game takes place 100 years before BOTW and is a direct prequel that tells the story of the Calamity"? Even now, with hindsight, some of this is still either incorrect or misleading; for one thing, Hyrule is certainly not brought on its knees, and we only see Hyrule 100 years before BOTW for 2 minutes before the egg goes back in time; with the game from there on taking place in an alternate past that isn't 100 years before BOTW, as BOTW doesn't happen in this alternate timeline.

Plus, the very first announcement for the game opened with Impa's line: "The history of the royal family of Hyrule is also the history of Calamity Ganon" followed by the line from the king: "I think you are now ready; ready to hear what happened 100 years ago." Those lines, and the context behind when they were said, tells the audience watching the announcement something very specific. This is reinforced when Aonuma follows the trailer by saying, "This game takes place 100 years before the events of The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. In that game, the Great Calamity that occurred 100 years prior was mentioned, but the actual event itself wasn't shown in full. In this game, you'll be able to experience the events of the Great Calamity." One of the game's producers also reiterated the "experience the events 100 years prior to Breath of the Wild" claim that is made untrue by the game taking place in an alternate timeline. 

And these aren't the only ways in which the game was falsely-advertised. Some have pointed out in comments and videos online that various clips of cutscenes in the pre-release trailers have bits missing from the equivalent cutscenes in the game, with those bits being anything that would've given away the alternate timeline. Not necessarily story spoilers; just the alternate timeline itself. 

I've seen people point out that the demo included the scene where the egg goes back in time, and that's true. However, the demo released on October 28th. By that point, most people who were going to pre-order the game had already done so. And, even after the demo released, the trailers continued to hide signs of the game taking place in an alternate timeline, and I pulled those quotes from Nintendo's website today. Even after the demo released, the marketing for the game didn't change. 

 

Now, obviously, false advertising is far from the worst thing a game company did this year alone (cough Cyberpunk cough), but that's the thing: whenever Nintendo does something bad, another company almost inevitably does something worse within a month to the point of it almost being like clockwork. I honestly wonder if joy-con drift would have gotten nearly as much attention as it did if PS4 for XBox1 controllers snapped in half like a Kit-Kat after being used for over an hour.

Yeah, that's a pretty damn spot-on assessment. They definitely realized that they'd make more sales if people thought they were getting a direct prequel to BotW, and so they did everything they could to market it as one. Really begs the question of why they didn't just make it a prequel to begin with.

[Thoughts on Age of Calamity (Spoilers, btw)]

Gameplay-wise, I really enjoyed Age of Calamity. Before I even started playing, being able to fight as Zelda, with movesets for both the Shiekah runes and her sealing magic, was a huge selling point for me. BotW's Zelda is my absolute favorite take on her character so far, and her gameplay in AoC doesn't disappoint. After she basically spent all of BotW trapped in Hyrule Castle playing chase the Ganon, this was her big moment to shine (and hopefully not her last one either), taking charge on the battlefield in her white goddess dress, spells blazing, flattening the everloving crap out of some monsters. As for the combat itself, the traditional Warriors gameplay blends itself perfectly with so many of BotW's mechanics (perfect dodge, paraglider, Shiekah runes) and iconic locales (admit it, we all wanted to see what Hyrule Castle and Akkala Citadel looked like back then). The greater focus on aerial attacks was such an amazing idea too, since it adds so much more variety to movesets like Mipha's, Teba's (go pluck yourself, Revali) and even Zelda's with her Cryonis attacks and Luminescent state. Really, everything about AoC's gameplay makes for a fun and unique Warriors experience. The only bits I didn't like were the slow-ass Divine Beast stages, they're awkward af to control and there's really nothing about them that I found fun. It's just mashing R until everything's dead. That feels more like a chore than anything. But whatever, it's not like there's enough of them to take away at all from my enjoyment of the game.

The story on the other hand left a lot to be desired imo. Maybe I'm being a little naïve expecting that deep a story from a fighting game, but overall AoC's plot just felt too bland and cliche to really stay invested in. I didn't like Terrako at all and time travel's one of my least favorite story gimmicks unless it's really done well like in OoT and MM. I get that they wanted to tell a brand new story where the Champions survive and live happily ever after and blah blah blah, but this wasn't the way to do it. I wish they'd have let us experience the original story first, complete with the tragic ending, and then given us a "what if the Champions survived" bonus story without the time travel gimmick. I didn't like how the game advertised as a BotW prequel basically skipped over everything that actually led up to BotW. Aside from that, a lot of the other story elements felt very forced, like how the game handled Astor betraying the Yiga Clan. Instead of Zelda and the Champions suddenly having to deal with two opposing factions who are out for each other's blood as well as hers, Kogha suddenly just up and joins her! Like, I get that they're both against Astor, but Zelda still kinda wants to kill Kogha's god and for some reason he's okay with that. I guess he's just that nuts lol

Overall, I was very impressed with AoC's gameplay, but I felt like the story could've used a bit more polish. But I'm happy as long as Zelda can Lysithea the hell out of some Lynels so it's all good lol

[First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions]

14 hours ago, Objeckts said:

By that logic, wouldn't Dancer Dorothea would let you run 3 Sylvains.

That's true of any non-Ferdinand Dancer though, even crappy ones like Raphael or Caspar. If you value Ferdie's combat potential that much, then you can always use Marianne instead since her spells are chip damage by your definition (a good mage shouldn't just rely on CAs like Frozen Lance imo, since they're 1-range only). That's three Sylvains, or possibly up to five (or even seven) if you have someone use the dance battalion on Sylvain/Ferdie and Marianne, without sacrificing Dorothea.

I'm not saying that one way's better than the other, just that there's many viable options here that each have their own upsides and downsides. So I don't think we can say there's really any one best dancer, it's just which trade-off we each consider more beneficial. For you, it's Dorothea/Hilda, and for me it's Ferdie/Marianne, and there's nothing wrong with either decision.

I actually kinda wanna try that seven Sylvains trick now lol

[First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions]

28 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Catherine, Shamir, Cyril, Constance, and Hapi are all incredible units that can be recruited at no cost to replace Hilda as an offensive unit.

Are we comparing physical powerhouses to mages now? I'm not sure what this argument's even supposed to prove. That there are other units in the game that can kill stuff?

31 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

If you are using the opprotunity cost argument, then using Ferd as a Dancer is way higher cost than Dorothea. As a mage, Dorothea cannot kill anything. She is not fast enough to double and lacks the magic stat of someone like Lys or Constance to one shot with any of her spells.

This is completely false. And if your idea is that a mage needs to have the magic stat of Lys or Constance to do anything, then how's Marianne any better? By your definition, wouldn't she just be doing "chip damage" too? Especially since her Reason list pales in comparison to Dorothea's.

41 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Running two Sylvians is going to be stronger than 1 Sylvain and a Dorothea. Both Sylvain and Ferd can reliably kill most enemies with Swift Strikes while in 8 move classes with Canto.

Think about it this way. If Ferdie dances for Sylvain, then you've accomplished the same thing as running two Sylvains. In other words, Dancer Ferdie essentially lets you run two Sylvains and a Dorothea, which is obviously stronger than two Sylvains alone regardless of what you think about Dorothea's damage.

1 hour ago, Objeckts said:

Marianne gets Frozen Lance. Its a magic based attack that actually kills

And Dorothea gets Hexblade. A magic based attack that actually kills.

49 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Dorothea's Meteor is just chip damage. Sagittae is also just chip damage.

Again, not true. All comments like this tell me is that you've either never used Dorothea or you completely failed to build her properly.

52 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

On top of that she has Riding/Flying strengths so she can actually get into strong offensive classes like Dark Knight, Dark Flier, or Falcon Knight.

Dorothea has absolutely no trouble at all getting into Dark Flier. Or Pegasus Knight for that matter. She can easily be running Sword Prowess, Reason Prowess, Fiendish Blow and Darting Blow as a Dark Flier before the timeskip rolls around.

54 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Shouldn't your enemy phase units be killing things consistently? Wouldn't it be better for the enemies units to run into your Battalion Wrath Petra which can actually kill. Also if you are dancing a unit, usually they are going to move forward. So having a bulky dancer alone won't prevent enemy phase damage, the unit you are dancing is also going to need to be durable.

Again, the goal of avoid stacking on your Dancer isn't to turn them into an enemy phase nuke like Dimitri. It's to increase survivability, so that they can dance somebody who's in attack range of, say, six or seven strong enemies and not get their frail asses pounded into paste should any of those enemies still be alive on the enemy phase. What's better, a Dancer who has to tiptoe around any actual danger or one who can actually take the heat if they have to?

Anyway, this is derailing into a much bigger argument so let's just call it even and move on for the sake of the topic. After all, nobody's ever gonna agree on who the best Dancer is so there's no need to keep squabbling over it.

[First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions]

1 hour ago, Sooks said:

What makes dancer and siege tome such a good combo?

The idea is that any allies standing within the spell's range (or at least the ones who can support with the dancer) receive linked attack bonuses. However this comes at a few costs. Having a siege spell equipped means giving up the benefits of Sword Avoid +20, which is an important skill for Dancers. Also, only three students (Dorothea, Constance and Hilda) actually learn siege spells and each of them are better off in purely offensive classes. The debate is about whether or not that trade-off is really worth it, which I don't think it is.

[First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions]

10 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Neither. It's Hilda. She learns Bolting, which works the same on a Dancer as Meteor. The difference between Hilda and Dorothea is that Hilda does not have a riding weakness so she can also get +1 move. Of course Hilda is only really good on GD because those are the units she has supports with. Including special supports with Claude and Balthus that gives them +3 Mt.

Hilda is also faster and bulkier than Dorothea, but your Dancer is rarely going to take a hit anyway.

Bolting support is nice and all, but think about what you're throwing away by making Hilda your Dancer. Her Str and Spd growths, B.Wrath and her personal Relic all make her absolutely devastating as a Wyvern Lord. Dancer by comparison is a straight up waste of her talents.

I feel like one thing people forget about when choosing a Dancer is oppprtunity cost. What you're giving up to make someone your Dancer is just as important as their performance as one. Yes, you may enjoy Bolting/Meteor support, but when that's coming at the cost of Hilda's potential as a Wyvern (or Dorothea's as a Gremory/Dark Flier), is it really worth it? Personally, I say no. You take someone like Marianne or Ferdinand, however, and you're looking at a significantly better trade-off. I'm not saying Ferdie isn't a good unit, but the dude's more or less a carbon copy of Sylvain. And when you compare the two, Sylvain's available for free on every route (as long as you're playing female Byleth, which is better for Maddening anyway because Darting Blow/Falcon Knight access), he's got a much stronger early game performace and he has one of the best Relic weapons, which you can even get as early as Ch.5. Basically, as long as you have Sylvain, there's no reason not to make Ferdie your Dancer. After all, he's got both the appropriate boons, a good Spd growth and a personal that makes him perfect for the role. As for Marianne, she's got a decent Reason list but far from the best. Thoron's really all she's got in that department. No Sagittae or siege tome like Dorothea or Constance. No dark magic like Lysithea. Meanwhile she's got a good Faith list, but nothing that really satisfies the dedicated healer role better than Mercedes or Linhardt. A case could be made for a Frozen Lance Falcon Knight build if you wanted to do something interesting with her, but the simplest option is still to make her a Dancer. She's got the sword and riding boons to make it work and she can even keep up the healing if the situation calls for it.

11 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Dancers are safe just by having a strong player phase, the same way you keep other squishy units alive. The units they are Dancing can just kill nearby threats. It is even easier when you have offensive units with Canto who can run back to safety before getting danced. 

Isn't it better to have one less squishy unit to babysit though? If your Dancer can take care of themselves on the enemy phase, it means you don't have to worry as much about where you left them on the player phase.

11 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Sure but it also adds a lot of consistency to all of your units. Linked attacks are also incredibly important when trying to land gambits.

Tell that to Dorothea, who's forced to boink Linhardt for the rest of her life.

11 hours ago, Objeckts said:

Wouldn't it be better to Dance a dedicated healer instead of casting Physic with your Dancer?

Of course it would. That's why I said backup healer, not dedicated healer. If Felix is one hit away from death and Marianne can't get to Mercedes for whatever reason, isn't it good that she also has the ability to heal him up? That's all I meant, not that Marianne wouldn't normally just dance Mercedes. It's a backup option in case you get into a situation where that can't happen.

As for your other two points, I think @Dark Holy Elf covered them pretty thoroughly. Also remember that Dancers aren't meant to be full-blown dodge tanks (with the possible exception of Ferdie). I'm not saying to throw your Dancer into a horde of enemies like you would a dodge tank, just that avoid stacking gives them survivability on the enemy phase which means you can afford to use them in more dangerous situations.

[First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions]

23 minutes ago, Objeckts said:

Dorothea is the 2nd best Dancer in the game. Meteor is at its best on a Dancer. She can leave it equipped while she dances and give linked attacks to your whole team. +1 move is great,  but 10% hit/avoid for the whole team is better.

Hard disagree on this one. Meteor's an extremely powerful siege spell that wants to be used. It's much better in the hands of an offensive mage. Not only that, but having it equipped means she can't make use of Sword Avoid +20, which Dancers typically rely on for avoid stacking. She'll get the job done, sure, but I'd hardly call her second best when people like Ferdie and Marianne outclass her in pretty much every way.

Linked attack spam also has the nasty habit of scewing up pairings, if that's something you care about.

5 minutes ago, Aethelstan said:

Who do you think its the first, Ferdinand or Marianne? I always use Dorothea as my dancer. She gives me great results everytime. But I adore Ferdinand and if he's viable it'd be cool to try something new.

A strong case can be made for both, really. Marianne can reliably run the Movement +1/avoid stacking build while also healing with Physic as needed. Ferdie doesn't have the same healing potential as Marianne, but his personal (+15 avoid at full HP) just happens to lend itself perfectly to the Dancer build, getting close to 100% avoid as long as he's got a sword in his hand. If you'd like your Dancer to function as a backup healer, I'd say go with Marianne. But for the best avoid stacking experience, Ferdinand von Aegir's the way to go.

Here's the build if you'd like to try it out: Sword Prowess Lv.5, Sword Avoid +20, Axebreaker and Movement +1 with an Evasion Ring, Brigid Hunters and a Wo Dao+.

That said, Dorothea's by no means a bad Dancer and I'd never try to discourage you from playing the way you like. Personally, I just think she performs (heh) better as an offensive mage thanks to her extremely useful spell list.

[First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions]

2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd say it kinda is when your weapon of choice has a laughable 60 hit.

Things like Axe Prowess skills, hit from battalions, Hit +20, Accuracy Ring and Dex exist to solve that very problem.

[First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions]

1 hour ago, Aethelstan said:

What's the optimal class path for Dimitri if I don't go for brigand?

Something along the lines of Myrmidon/Soldier > Archer > Cavalier > Paladin helps him pick up some pretty useful skills. If you plan on training him at all in swords, I'd say try and spend some time in Thief too to build up his Spd and Dex. Ideally, I think you should aim for Lance Prowess, B.Vantage, B.Wrath, Hit +20 and either Swordbreaker or Desperation. That should serve him well for an enemy phase build.

Also, do you plan on recruiting Marianne or Ferdinand by any chance? I'd personally consider them both better Dancer candidates than Dorothea, tbh. Dorothea's got a nasty riding bane to deal with, which might put Movement +1 just out of reach on Maddening. She's also got a pretty great spell list (Sagittae, Thoron and Meteor) that would serve her much better in an offensive class like Gremory (or Dark Flier thanks to it's mercifully low flying requirement). Marianne and Ferdie both have sword and riding boons, with Marianne serving as an excellent backup healer as well. Ferdie might actually be the best Dancer though, since his personal lets him get pretty close to 100% avoid. By stacking Confidence with Sword Prowess, Sword Avoid +20, Axebreaker, an Evasion Ring and a high avoid battalion (like Brigid Hunters), he should be able to dance people right in the thick of things without fear of dying on the enemy phase.

[First BL Maddening Run (no NG+) questions]

48 minutes ago, Aethelstan said:

I'm trying to train everyone physical in axes to reclass to brigand for death blow. Other than that are there any must have skills I should be going for?

Like Dayni mentioned, Fiendish Blow is a must-have for your mages and Hit +20 is always useful. I also like to pick up Darting Blow for all the women (even mages) but that may be a bit of a hassle on Maddening unless you're going for Dark Flier. You should at least aim to get it on your fliers (especially Ingrid) though, since they'll be passing through Pegasus anyway.

Just a side note though, I wouldn't go out of my way to get Death Blow on Dimitri. As an enemy phase nuke, he'll do better with skills like Hit +20, Desperation, Swordbreaker and maybe Aegis.

[Whats the point of brawling?]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not getting countered. Duh! Also, Windsweep is likely to be a thing well before War Master, as a master tier class, can even claim to be relevant (this is especially true for Yuri thanks to his being weak in axes).

Agreed that Windsweep has some utility before War Master becomes available, but you're essentially arguing that it's worth staying in a sword class for the whole game just for this one CA. You have to consider the opportunity cost here. Swordfaire classes just aren't that good. You'd be gimping any character's potential by keeping them in one. Assassin's the only one I'd consider useful, and even then it's outclassed by Falcon/Wyvern/War Master builds. Every character geared towards swords, including Byleth and Yuri, have better class options. Just look at Petra, our "canon" Assassin. Even she's better off ditching the sword and hopping on a wyvern. I'm not saying you can't beat the game using sword classes, you have every right to play how you want. But telling people that swordies are better units than War Masters becuase of Windsweep is a straight up lie.

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

What's more, crits are not something I find reliable.

That's fine. I never said War Masters relied on crits anyway.

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

One-rounding does not necessarily mean that you get to avoid a counter, either

Did you miss the part where I said gauntlet users make highly effective dodge tanks thanks to the weapon's low weight and Brawl Avo +20 from War Monk/Cleric? And that's not even adding in Byleth and Yuri's speed. Letting the enemy counter isn't exactly gonna kill them that easily.

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, news flash: Yuri's crest is unreliable (it only has a 1/5 activation chance. I shouldn't have to tell you that is not good odds. 

 

On 12/23/2020 at 9:31 AM, RainbowMoon said:

Yuri even gets the added bonus of his crest doing the same thing as Windsweep on regular attacks that can (and will) double.

 

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

So I'd say you're way off base to call it "underwhelming", especially when you're hyping stuff I'd be a moron to rely on.

Only a moron would use Swift Strikes? What the hell are you on, dude? Having Brave effect on cheaper weapons like Silver+ and Killer+ is extremely useful mid/late game when people like Sylvain and Seteth may have trouble doubling faster enemies like Swordmasters.

Vengeance Bernadetta is a risky playstyle, I'll grant you that. But played right she's essentially a boss delete button and a better Death Knight killer than Lysithea.

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

 I'd probably get more mileage out of than Raging Storm, which is tied to a weapon that has both bottom-of-the-barrel accuracy AND needs rare materials to repair.

Hit +20 is typically a thing people pick up if they plan to use Raging Storm a lot. And Agarthium really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. I got tons of it from the Titanus in the Arianrhod chapter, and you can grind it out in desert monster battles too. Hell, the Dark Merchant even sells it sometimes.

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

All this said, brawling is pretty much dependent on not getting strength screwed. Which is not good, as I'm pretty much at the mercy of the RNG, even more so than usual.

Again, you're free to play how you want. But you can't just go around making false claims based solely on personal bias. I have my odd playstyle preferences too. I like to recruit and use Ashe simply because I like his character. But I'm not gonna start telling people that Ashe is objectively better than Leonie, because that's just wrong.

[Manuela is a good unit, change my mind]

Manuela's not a bad unit, she's just a weird one lol

It almost feels like the game doesn't really know what she should be. She can be a Bishop, but she's not a great one. She can be an Assassin, but she's not a great one. She'd make a pretty good Dancer, but she's not allowed to be one. The dlc gave her Trickster too, but that's kind of a meh class to begin with.

That said, I'd probably try a "magic Falcon Knight" build with her, using a Levin Sword. Her stats are similar enough to Ingrid's that she should be able to pull it off fairly easily. For a class path, taking her through Mage > Pegasus Knight > Trickster > Falcon Knight picks up Fiendish Blow, Darting Blow and Duelist's Blow. Just add Sword Prowess, Alert Stance and an Evasion Ring and go to town. Only hangup is that she's limited in battalion choices this way. Nuvelle Fliers Corps is the only flying magic battalion and you can only get one of it without NG+.

[Whats the point of brawling?]

13 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Abandoning Windsweep for the former two is a VERY hard sell, in my book.

What exactly is so special about Windsweep that you'd choose it over everything War Master has to offer? Never mind the fact that Byleth doesn't get it until A in swords, it's a fairly underwhelming CA. It's not a brave art like Swift Strikes or an utterly broken one like Vengeance or Raging Storm. The only thing that stands out about it is that enemies can't counterattack. Which isn't all that impressive when Byleth and Yuri should be getting one round kills on the player phase anyway. Dead stuff can't counterattack either. Yuri even gets the added bonus of his crest doing the same thing as Windsweep on regular attacks that can (and will) double.

I'm not sure why you'd stay in a sword class for this and pass up a War Master build that has insane crit and avoid on top of being able to reliably quad.