Lord Raven

and yet you're advocating Rolf up to high mid...

i pretty much agree with your point about karel, which is pretty much the point BB even admits himself, but harken is not a factor which is the key idea

I'd move them both down due to their not existing for 97+% of the game. i agree helping out in the final chapter on their own accord > being below average for the entire game, but upper mid is doing at least average for the entire game... so they're around for longer than nagi/gotoh and helping out for the time they're there. Harken > Karel, Brave Sword > Wo Dao but I would still penalize neither unless you really want karel to suffer for not allowing you to receive harken... in which case you'd also penalize harkenPROTIP: italics probably mean they're editing a post

I suggest penalizing neither, and only penalizing both if you're going to penalize one for not letting the other exist so as not to create a double standard of sorts. Same applies to Gotoh! and you're against his moving up too

Exactly. He's arguing against that.He's also saying that Harken being used also should detract from Harken's usefulness because it prevents Karel from being used. It should work both ways regardless of quality, not just one way because something's better. The latter is hypocritical, inconsistent, double standard, whatever you wish to call it. Then put her above the guys doing below average throughout the game, not the up-mid crowd that's doing above average throughout the entire game. Put her above Gotoh if anything (I think Low is a bit too low, but Up mid is too high).

oh, there's also kieran... whose availability is larger than Geoffrey's and he has mount, and str/def to take advantage of even if he has problems with doubling... surely it's not lower mid material... bottom of upper mid though. and lyle tiers are for people who have nothing better to do come winter break.

Then why is Nagi > upper mid? She's not doing THAT much in the final chapter that everyone else isn't already doing. Other than killing dragons.

You can warp to take out any boss. Just limit the game to using Rena, Marth, and Nagi if you're concerned with warp staffs, and make everyone else bottom because that's the fastest way to play the game anyway.

lol, I forgot about that last one. Disregard it.I can see him gaining a level in Part 2, since I forgot how low everything was. I can somewhat see Rhys > Geoffrey now. tell you if anything comes to mind the main thing I can see going for soren is how quickly he can max out magic and skill and res so you can jack his speed... other than that, he's fine where he is I like the idea of Oscar below Rafiel because of his availability in tandem with Ike and his support with Ike (an earth x earth support that lasts a very long time is really cool, especially on a good unit and an above average mounted unit). Oscar for high tier ideally. maybe moving leanne up (below rafiel) and Oscar below Leanne is cool too

Three if I recall correctly.

Fair point, that's the part I was contemplating. I'll come up with something if I can, but right now I can definitely see why Zihark > Sothe. This is also true, but the utility still exists. Rolf is still a pain to use, too. Geoffrey will still sustain a level lead. That's my main argument. His Paragon ability will allow him to hit around Level 17 or 18 by the end of part II and he could potentially promote by the time you get him in Part III, if not he still has a couple chapters.Kyza vs Volke I don't care about, but "decent for his class" doesn't matter. (note the bolded part). Kyza isn't doing that hot, Volke is doing somewhat well (although average in relative terms; I still wouldn't put him below Kyza).

Rath > Karel? Really? I wasn't talking about Karel. It was a hypothetical other, made up unit. [01:18:14] <&quanta> oh yeah, harken > karel doesn't affect karel's position [01:18:24] <&quanta> otherwise you'd have to penalize harken for not getting karel [01:20:12] <&quanta> it's like [01:20:18] <&quanta> Harken is worth A-B [01:20:23] <&quanta> and Karel is worth B-A [01:20:44] <&quanta> so the difference between their worths is then double counted to be 2A-2B [01:20:48] <&quanta> instead of A-B [01:21:03] <+Nathan_Graves> I don't get it [01:21:11] <+Nathan_Graves> so you're pretty much saying harken > karel? [01:21:12] <&quanta> the thing is if you buy into that logic, then Karel should instantly be the worst character in the game [01:21:16] <+Nathan_Graves> because I don't disagree with anyone [01:21:20] <+Nathan_Graves> when they say that [01:21:24] <&quanta> and Harken has to move down too [01:21:47] <&quanta> No, I'm saying that if you lower Karel because you can't get Harken if you use him, then Harken has to move down too [01:22:01] <&quanta> whereas you'll see that people NEVER penalize Harken for some reason [01:23:45] <&quanta> now they are making no sense [01:24:59] <&quanta> that's like arguing that blueberry muffins have to move down the list of tastiest muffins because they are worse than poppyseed muffins which are ALREADY HIGHER anyways [01:25:19] <&quanta> and their brilliant counterargument, is "well, blueberries cause cancer" How are you even sure most people don't get Karel, and how do you sure it's for that reason alone? Stop making generalizations, you don't have anything to back it up! Some supports you'll probably never get = no supports. That's cool. We're going around in circles here. But you haven't been using Harken, so how is it hurting the team?[01:35:26] <+Nathan_Graves> in order for Karel to hurt the team, it implies [01:35:31] <+Nathan_Graves> A) Harken is being used prior [01:35:40] <+Nathan_Graves> B) Harken implodes when you recruit Karel [01:35:53] <+Nathan_Graves> neither is true, because A) is presumptuous or, fo rhtat matter, impossible [01:35:59] <+Nathan_Graves> and B) that doesn't even happen That's a pretty double standard you've got going there. You can read me like the internet. And Nagi can't do that for the chapters prior. Because she doesn't exist. Tiki does, however. But I think Tiki should be lower, anyway. Fucking irrelevant!

Sothe > Zihark? Their offense seems about equal when Zihark comes in, and Sothe helps out tremendously in the chapters prior. If I recall correctly, Sothe has a more solid defense too, but Zihark seems to shine better as you progress. I want to hear your thoughts on this, I'm not caring all that much but my main backing is the utility for the four chapters prior. Also, thieving. Mia > Edward. If we're speaking Hard mode, Edward deserves up mid or something because, not that he sucks, but he's not particularly spectacular. Especially with a lack of WTA. Mia is consistently doubling and can evade pretty decently later. Perhaps Boyd can be lower due to his early doubling problems. Not sure how much, but high seems too much. As much as I love Boyd. Mist > Rolf? I can't see why Rolf > Mist; Mist may be frail, but she does mount upon promotion. She can heal prior to promotion, too. I don't know about you, but volke seems a hell of a lot more useable than Kyza. And Geof a hell of a lot more useable than Rhys. Nothing much glaring else I care about the list right now. Check back up on you later. I think it's decent so far.

Nagi > Gotoh, I won't disagree. Nagi > Upper mid? I will gladly disagree.

Which tends to be irrelevant when you're warping her near Medeus anyway.

Irrelevant. Gotoh does nothing but help your team. He doesn't waste a slot. He doesn't really require EXP. See where I'm going with this?Unfortunately, I don't even agree with Gotoh being high tier. Top of lower mid maybe. Not high. It still has nothing to do with Nagi. She doesn't "give" you it, Tiki does. Which is irrelevant to Tiki, too.

The fact that she only comes for one chapter should be proof enough that she does not deserve high tier. She does nothing but help your team but... so does Gotoh. No, Tiki's death allows you to do this. Nagi is irrelevant here. No, that merely judges who's better. Stupid and redundant as it sounds, it's pretty true.It has nothing to do with who is more likely to be used. A far more relevant method of finding that is polling every FE DS player who has ever owned the game and written down how often each character was used on every single playthrough ever. If you can't do that? Guess what, you can't judge who is most used or most likely to be used.

Using them = not using other units. So if a unit was slightly worse than Harken, they're automatically shitty for blocking out Harken? Harken is irrelevant. Harken isn't even getting many supports on top of that, and on top of that Karel will have at least 60 evade which is quite decent. I still think going below the top of low is pushing it too. It's not hurting the team if he wasn't even there for the 13 or so chapters before. You can't hurt the team unless you take something away; you're taking nothing away using Karel or Harken. You're adding to the team when they are used in some way, shape, or form. How the hell do you know he's very likely to be used? Once again, have you asked every single person who's ever played FE7?It shouldn't even matter at all. It shouldn't be anywhere near a factor unless recruiting him kills Harken who was complete rapeage for the 13 chapters prior, which actually means he is affected your team who is presumptuously (key word, presumptuously - you don't know who's using what) using Harken. I myself find it to be a bit centralizing to even recruit Harken in the first place because I tend to plow through chapters (due to paranoia about tactics rank). Which makes it so much easier to get Karel than Harken anyway. I feel this is relevant. If you see what I'm arguing, you'll see why I disagree with parts of this list, and supposedly why Nagi's up above many of the lower tiers who FE3 Player says is below Nagi simply because the upper tiers outclass many of the units below who are probably more useful throughout the entire half of the game before her anyway. Half the game at worst, too.

I interpreted what you said wrong. Like, I have no clue it's almost 1 AM and I'm fucking tired.

Then everyone below high tier is invisible. Or may as well be bottom tier. Using them detracts from the EXP everyone else could be using to their own advantage, and is a waste of funds. No, it should not considering how he's doing fucking fine even if it isn't as good as Harken. He can actually evade. :o! And yet, he's still better offensively than most of bottom and low. But how?The tier list is saying who is best on a team, not who you will actually use. Harken is best on your team. Does not mean you will use him, but he is factually better than Karel. It'll make y character lower than x character. He'll be lower because he's not as good. It won't bump him down any more or less if x character is better, but it'll at least guarantee that y character is lower than x character.

I believe Legault > Athos but that's not the point of this thread. The other tier lists I recall seem to not agree with your sentiments. And my primary point? One person's existence should not make another invisible. Karel is not complete shit, and the main point for his being so is the fact that he blocks out Harken. Which has nothing to do with how he performs. What are his other negatives? Or are you just going to keep his negatives as a completely blank claim?

What negative effects? They both have their respective shortcomings.Harken is one of the best units in the game? He's like mid/low high or something. No, it fucking wouldn't. And finally, if you had to choose between Sothe and Volke you'd obviously choose Volke. But Sothe's performance isn't affected any one bit by choosing him over Volke. Bearing in mind, Sothe obviously does suck (but he still has utility), but it isn't hindering your team one bit. It's not like you had Volke for five chapters then you had a choice to kill him off for Sothe. Then Sothe is detracting from your team that Volke is presumptuously in, because Volke is a better character and boosts the power of your team (somewhat, you can't deny that terrible offense). But in your instance, you have the choice at chapter x to choose between the two of them, having had neither in your team prior; then Sothe is a +0 to your team (not helping, not hindering) whereas Volke is a +3. This makes Volke the better choice, but it doesn't affect Sothe's performance either. He just helps the team less than Volke can, which once again only guarantees that Volke > Sothe, not the position of either character. How is he doing more damage than good? Harken's doing good, Karel's doing decent. Karel should be bottom of Mid, Harken should be middle of high. Purely based on how well they're helping the team respectively, not how one of them is blocking out the other. He two rounds, he three rounds like... mounts. No way he's three rounding fighters when he's one rounding thieves. It isn't everything, but it contributes to one's usefulness if you're especially if you're primarily a utility unit. This is almost like asking Matthew or Legault to be lower than Athos.

True statement. I myself use different people every runthrough (not ENTIRELY different teams) which agrees with the statement made. You can't claim it's false unless you've asked every single person that's played FE DS whether or not they switch up teams; I do switch up my teams, so therefore the statement is true. Just apparently, not in your case.This same argument applies to higher tier = more use. Not true unless you've, once again, asked EVERY single FE DS player how often they've used a unit. Dart and Farina are obviously extreme examples. They're not blocking out others so to speak, but they're COMPLETELY specialized units in terms of funds. In which case, the player should be willing to accept that they're going to be destroying funds and plan explicitly just to use them.In which case, Farina has shortcomings starting out anyway and Dart's having a hard time for a while because of the lack of an Iron Axe because you can't afford much, if at all, at that point in time due to lacking a Silver Card. Then his durability starts to get extremely shaky because he's STILL behind, then he just starts to suck and requires too much specialized attention; it's beyond your tactics rank, that's for sure. Dart/Farina also hurt the ENTIRE team. It's like this... Dart is level 20. Your team rank is 20 (arbitrary value). Dart uses Ocean Seal. Because you lose funds, your team rank is 15. Same case with Farina. She costs just as much to promote (40K to get her, 10K to promote; I could argue more since lances are expensive) Linda/Rolf/Gordon are hurt more by the fact that they can only attack on the player phase (Linda can technically attack on both phases, but her durability is terrible), instead of the enemy phase. And by their frailty and their underpoweredness in relation to the enemies. The fact that they must be babied really adds insult to injury, but it's pretty much fully as a result of their frailty/lack of power starting out. If they suck individually, that's cool. Bottom tier. If they're not as good as someone else, that's cool. Just put them below that person. But that someone else should have nothing to do with how good the guy in question is. But Karel vs Harken? (this quote is also something that's relevant) Karel's a different example. It doesn't matter if he's blocking out Harken; this is bias towards Harken and assuming one wants to use Harken. Using Harken could hurt your tactics because it prevents you from rushing Jerme's map, or fighting certain enemies in Kenneth's map. Karel is less risky to use because of how flexible you can be with tactics on those maps as a result. They both require Turn 9, but one requires a lot of enemies/doors killed/opened version very few. Team rank is 20. You recruit Karel. Team rank is 21. Team rank is 20. You recruit Harken. Team rank is 23. Karel isn't hindering the team one bit. Harken is helping it more, but Karel is still not hindering it. That is the point. I've got more hypothetical examples to back the principle I'm arguing, but we'll see where we go from here. No, he would not. Being a thief is better than most of low and bottom tiers can even dream of. That's in relative terms. Which is irrelevant to Karel's output. Just in Karel's relative output to Harken. In normal mode? His early game is decent at best. His endgame is average. His mid-game tends to be where he peaks at above average to some extent. While not mandatory, he still can speed things up by letting out an "lol" offense unit pick up the treasures while your "amazing" units take on everything else.