Who would you consider the smartest and dumbest Lords of all?

[ARMADS!!!]

I know Intelligence is relative and depending on which type of inteligence we're talking about the answer might be a completely different one, so feel free to choose between just saying who you find the smartest/dumbest in general or actually analising their types of inteligence (such as emotional inteligente, street smarts, book smarts, takes good and smart decisions, cult, whether they're a total airhead or sharp minded, crooked world views or not, guillible or not, etc) and even ranking if you want to.

 Also, you decide if you wanna count the characters that are not 100% agreed on as lords (such as some avatars, Rhea, Fates' royal siblings, spin off lords, whatever).

 I get there's very likely not one definitive answer (even we're speaking smartest/dumbest in general), but I wanna know what you guys think.

[Etrurian emperor]

Dumbest lord? Did someone say Corrin? After all they keep being deceived by the enemy, require their siblings to handhold them and put faith in people they really aren't supposed to. 

You could also make a case for Ike, not because he's naturally unintelligent but because he just seems completely disinterested in both tactics and management. He outsources both to Soren and Titania, and he certainly doesn't even bother practice anything resembling politics. 

Shez isn't a complete idiot but they are kind of a dense dummy. 

For the smartest lord we arguably end up with Roy who's generally written as having a good head on his shoulder and who employs tricks from time to time. Unlike most lords he also gets zero help from his advisor since that adviser is Merlinus and thus useless.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Etrurian emperor

[ARMADS!!!]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

For the smartest lord we arguably end up with Roy who's generally written as having a good head on his shoulder and who employs tricks from time to time. Unlike most lords he also gets zero help from his advisor since that adviser is Merlinus and thus useless.

 

Oh yeah, I had the impression that they just gave a dumb advisor to Roy to make him look smarter, which bothered me a bit because he is already smart so he didn't need this to look like it (also because FE6 Merlinus is extremely annoying but that's besides the point), they keep making Merlinus give dumb advises only for Roy to correct him and say an actual good idea... Anyway, I'd probably say that Roy is the smarter in general, too, at least from the games I played or know enough to speak of.

A̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶u̶m̶b̶e̶s̶t̶,̶ ̶I̶'̶d̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶C̶o̶r̶r̶i̶n̶'̶s̶ ̶i̶d̶e̶a̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶r̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶k̶i̶l̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶u̶m̶b̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶F̶i̶r̶e̶ ̶E̶m̶b̶l̶e̶m̶ ̶l̶o̶r̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶(̶f̶e̶e̶l̶ ̶g̶u̶i̶l̶t̶y̶?̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶f̶i̶g̶h̶t̶i̶n̶g̶?̶ ̶t̶r̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶v̶o̶i̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶f̶l̶i̶c̶t̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶m̶u̶c̶h̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶?̶ ̶s̶u̶r̶e̶.̶ ̶B̶u̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶k̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶?̶!̶)̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶e̶d̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶g̶u̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶I̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶C̶o̶r̶r̶i̶n̶ ̶d̶u̶m̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶i̶t̶,̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶u̶n̶i̶v̶e̶r̶s̶e̶,̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶v̶e̶l̶o̶p̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶F̶a̶t̶e̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶r̶ ̶l̶e̶a̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶k̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶a̶c̶r̶o̶s̶s̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶s̶s̶i̶o̶n̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶d̶u̶m̶b̶.̶

 .

[Eltosian Kadath]

An odd one to throw out there for dumbest, but Sigurd comes to mind. First off the game opens by emphasizing that the brilliant young tactician Oifey is riding by his side feeding him tactical advise. Second off, Sigurd ignores basic aspects of politics, which by all rights, as heir to the duchy, he really should be paying attention to, and this ignorance leads to disastrous results. Another small thing to mention is how he treats his wife, despite her literally recruitment being her showing her competence on the battle field by saving Sigurd's hide with her clever use of magic. After their marriage he repeatedly tries to force her off the battlefield, and into a more motherly role that she chafes against, and just like with his staggering ignorance of politics, these efforts lead to utterly disastrous results.

Hector is an interesting one to mention for dumbest, as he has an in universe reputation for being a bit of an ignorant lout, but if you actually pay attention to the plot, his reputation is a bit deceptive. We see him understand the political situation he is in, make clever moves, like out maneuvering the more accurately described lout of Erik, and even piece together the lie about his brother's health before the end. His issue is more an example of the disastrous consequences of toxic masculinity, and I see that as something a little different for mere dumbest. 

 

As for smartest, Micaiah definitely earn a mention for having multiple massively unfair advantages over numerous other lords. Not only is she one of the older lords, able to learn much through those years, but she also gets fed some prophetic information, and actually uses that information to make informed strategic, and tactical decisions. While there are "advisors" around her, they are clearly more of a hindrance than a boon, and its Micaiah's intelligence that navigates the impossible situations her nation starts the game in.

Sigh...I hate to mention it, but mister I don't pick fights I can't win Ephraim deserves a mention for being the Gariest Stus of Fire Emblem protagonists even on the intelligence side of things. Sadly this poorly written member of the blandula twins is unable to lose, even when by all logic he should, because of how perfect, and gifted, and handsome, and intelligent he definitely is, the writers promise.

 

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Dumbest lord? Did someone say Corrin? After all they keep being deceived by the enemy, require their siblings to handhold them and put faith in people they really aren't supposed to.

Yes

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

For the smartest lord we arguably end up with Roy who's generally written as having a good head on his shoulder and who employs tricks from time to time. Unlike most lords he also gets zero help from his advisor since that adviser is Merlinus and thus useless.

And Yes.

[Etrurian emperor]

3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Hector is an interesting one to mention for dumbest, as he has an in universe reputation for being a bit of an ignorant lout, but if you actually pay attention to the plot, his reputation is a bit deceptive. We see him understand the political situation he is in, make clever moves, like out maneuvering the more accurately described lout of Erik, and even piece together the lie about his brother's health before the end. His issue is more an example of the disastrous consequences of toxic masculinity, and I see that as something a little different for mere dumbest. 

 

Indeed. The idea of the people of Elibe that Hector is dumb likely has more to do with bad first impressions due to his bad manners. Curiously Eliwood has the reverse. Where Hector is smarterthan he appears Eliwood is stronger than he appears. In their support Eliwood apparently has the better win record and those that dismiss him as just a boy are typically wrong. And while Eliwood is hardly dumb one can argue he's less intelligent then Hector. Its often Hector explaining things to Eliwood and he did fall for Erik's ploy even if he really shouldn't have. 

[Sunwoo]

4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

An odd one to throw out there for dumbest, but Sigurd comes to mind. First off the game opens by emphasizing that the brilliant young tactician Oifey is riding by his side feeding him tactical advise. Second off, Sigurd ignores basic aspects of politics, which by all rights, as heir to the duchy, he really should be paying attention to, and this ignorance leads to disastrous results. Another small thing to mention is how he treats his wife, despite her literally recruitment being her showing her competence on the battle field by saving Sigurd's hide with her clever use of magic. After their marriage he repeatedly tries to force her off the battlefield, and into a more motherly role that she chafes against, and just like with his staggering ignorance of politics, these efforts lead to utterly disastrous results.

Interesting, this is the first time I've heard anyone blame Sigurd for Deirdre being kidnapped by Manfroy. I've seen the cartwheels people have done trying to blame Deirdre, but I'm not buying this one either.

Also, unless there's an updated and more accurate translation of Genealogy's script that I'm not aware of, I gotta disagree with the assessment that Deirdre "chafes against" a more motherly role. The script on SF never suggests that she hates being a mother or not being on the battlefield, nor does it suggest that Sigurd tries to force Deirdre off the battlefield after their marriage. If I had to make a deduction from the script, he's concerned about Seliph having at least one parent and probably didn't have an issue with her fighting alongside him otherwise. And Deirdre's more worried that he's putting himself in danger rather than being upset she's been relegated to the castle.

[There was a quote from the script here, but it broke my entire fucking post so I deleted it]

Not giving an opinion on whether I think Sigurd is dumb or not, but this is a really uncharitable interpretation of his and Deirdre's interactions after being married.

Also, it's hard to say who is actually the dumbest or smartest lord because of how variable the writing can be with how it tries to portray characters' intelligence. For example, Corrin comes off dumb to the players, but it also doesn't feel like the writers intended for them to be stupid. Rather, it feels like a badly written way of portraying Corrin as a charming and kind-hearted soul whose messianic pull is resisted only by the "really bad people". Ike is certainly not a genius in tactics or politics skills, but the story also has Ike realize those limitations and he comes off smarter for knowing when to bow out and put more competent people in charge. Edelgard is apparently supposed to be politically savvy and smart, but she also gives off the impression of someone who thinks she's smarter than she actually is. At times Claude being a schemer feels more like an informed attribute than his deviousness being worked in organically into the script. And it's hard to tell whether Ephraim is incredibly dumb or incredibly lucky or incredibly smart for pulling off all the bullshit he does, because the only time the game lets him fail is on his own mode when confronted with Lyon. Which clearly only happens as a direct parallel to what happens to Eirika on her path.

I could tell you who I think were intended to be the "smart characters" by the writing, but that doesn't mean I think they always get it across.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Sunwoo
Things outside of quotes tag end up inside quotes, why?

[Samz707]

While I'm not too sure to put Smartest, I do want to say that I think Hector is a little smarter than people think and agree with that line of thought:

Hector literally guts that fake soldier in his first Eliwood chapter who tries pulling the "This is none of your business" charade (Not sure what the trope is called but I think I've seen it done before?) while I feel other dumber lords would have actually presumed this was a real soldier and at least tried to argue, Hector seems to catch on right away that he's probably not a real soldier, so he just takes him out and goes to save Eliwood. (This moment may have endeared Hector to me instantly so I might be biased.)

I do agree that Corrin is the dumbest by a mile with only Chrom/Robin really putting in any sort of competition. (I only played CQ but CQ finale literally has 

Spoiler

Corrin temporarily die because they're a dumbass who lets Takumi kill them, they intentionally get themselves killed for no logical reasons which is an unbeatable standard for stupidity. (Takumi's whole thing is hating Nohr yet somehow Corrin assumes that them dying will make Takumi's bloodlust completely stop.) 

 

[Etrurian emperor]

Oh yeah. Among the contenders for dumbest lord there's easily hobo Dimitri in Azure Moons. I think no other lord is such a gigantic burden that everyone must plan around him or ensure he doesn't get them all killed because he's too angry to do any thinking. 

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, it's hard to say who is actually the dumbest or smartest lord because of how variable the writing can be with how it tries to portray characters' intelligence. For example, Corrin comes off dumb to the players, but it also doesn't feel like the writers intended for them to be stupid. Rather, it feels like a badly written way of portraying Corrin as a charming and kind-hearted soul whose messianic pull is resisted only by the "really bad people".

I'm not sure about it. On one hand it really seems that Corrin came off way dumber then the writers intended and that we weren't supposed to consider him so incompetent. On the other hand the writers themselves wrote the sibling as needing to babysit Corrin and continually hold his hand so things don't go wrong, and they even have a scene where the siblings all conclude Corrin doesn't need to learn because they'll just clean up the mess. That does imply that at some point the writers did start to realize that Corrin was not a smart cookie. 

[ping]

Ha, I had a similar idea for a thread a few weeks ago, wrote half an opening post, and then forgot about it. I'll just put that (completed - no qualified opinions on anything past RD / the DS remakes) planned OP here:

Quote

A bit of a silly one, of course, but maybe an entertaining question to ask: What Fire Emblem characters, and specifically Lords, are directly portrayed as intelligent or stupid?

Key word being "portrayed": I want this to be about characters whose intelligence is intentionally on display, not about decisions that you might find stupid but aren't necessarily supposed to come across as such. In other words, this is not a Celica thread.

Going through the Lords, I think it's fair to not consider Marth and, yes, the Gaiden power couple. It helps that they simply don't talk much, period, but I think that what they say is neither supposed to be a brilliant deduction nor of stunning stupidity. And because I haven't arrived in Jugdral yet, the first Lord in the series that I think is a smart cookie (and that is supposed to be one) would be Roy. Not very controversial, I assume - in Merlinus, there's a whole character dedicated to be dumb in order to make Roy look smart, and even when he fades into the background, Elphin is somewhat astonished when Roy figures out his background, or sees through his FE3 narration as a fake-out.

Continuing to the previous generation... To be honest, I haven't followed FE7's story in a good while, so details may be fuzzy. But I believe Hector is supposed to come across as stupid because of his brash manners, even though he's quite intelligent (if not good at scholarly pursuits). He's very much a foil to the well-mannered Eliwood, although I'm pretty sure Eliwood isn't supposed to be dumber than he appears.

In Sacred Stones, I do think that both wonder twins are supposed to come across as really naive, in different ways: Eirika as too trusting in other people, Ephraim as very overconfident. The game also emphasises his book-dumbness even more than Hector's, although this is counterbalanced by his tactical genius.

And in PoR, Ike follows that pattern - excellent in fight-y matters, but very simple when it comes to people skills. The big example is the audience at Saniki's court, where his big mouth almost gets him killed and Elincia's mission failed, but you can also point at him not scrutinising the term "sub-human" when he hears it from Shinon. Unlike with the twins, it's not really portrayed as a flaw in Ike's character, since his simpleness tends to endear him to other good-aligned characters.

Not really anything to say about RD in this regard. Ike is a bit of a non-character; Elincia's story shows her willpower, not her intelligence; and Miccy's foresight is a magic ability and not something that stems from her big brain power. So, none of them I would really count here.

Finally - not a lord, but I am compulsed to mention that I think that Camus is specifically written to be a dummy. He talks about how he cannot betray his country when it's at its lowest... and in the background, Lawrence and Sheeda figure out that maybe it's not in the best interest of said country if you keep supporting your king who supports the evil dragon trying to genocide and/or enslave humanity, which would include your country - so maybe, just maybe oathbreaking can be considered the lesser evil here.

(in blue what I added now)

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Where Hector is smarterthan he appears Eliwood is stronger than he appears.

...and that makes far more sense than my idea that the only logical foil to "smarter than he comes across" is "dumber than he comes across".

[Alastor15243]

Are we including the stupidity the writers are forcing onto Byleth and Alear for their perpetual refusal to use their nigh-unfettered mastery over space and time to keep people from dying because the writers somehow think the rewind mechanic needs an in-universe explanation?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Dumbest Lord is Edelgard, based on Chapter 11. Picture this - you want to steal the Crest Stones, which are locked in the Holy Tomb. You also have a disguise, and a seemingly-unfettered ability to warp yourself. Do you A) Break in during the one day of the year when the continent's most powerful political figure, and the wielder of the ultimate legendary weapon, are there; or B) Break in on any of the other 364 days of the year? Even if Edelgard couldn't warp down there without visiting beforehand, she could just... join Teach on their field trip there. Hell, everyone would expect that to happen on BE routes, since she's in Teach's class. Why not show up, take a mental inventory of the stones, and do a quick "warp in, snatch em up, warp out" a week later? And while we're at it, how about not bringing monsters and Metodey, when you say you "really don't want to hurt your classmates"?

30 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Are we including the stupidity the writers are forcing onto Byleth and Alear for their perpetual refusal to use their nigh-unfettered mastery over space and time to keep people from dying because the writers somehow think the rewind mechanic needs an in-universe explanation?

Teach is actually the smartest Lord, for letting Rodrigue stay dead. It was necessary to break Dimitri out of his funk. Turnwheel there, and he'll never ocercome his desire for revenge.

(Also for letting Jeralt stay dead, because otherwise he'd turn into one of the White Beasts when Rhea goes berserk, and that would be really messed-up, wouldn't it?)

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, unless there's an updated and more accurate translation of Genealogy's script that I'm not aware of, I gotta disagree with the assessment that Deirdre "chafes against" a more motherly role.

Yeah, this might be slightly uncharitable of me, especially if Shannan was already their go to babysitter off screen, and her just leaving Seliph in the kid's care isn't as out of the blue as it comes across.

 

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

nor does it suggest that Sigurd tries to force Deirdre off the battlefield after their marriage.

But this is not a place where I am being uncharitable. Dierdre literally has to guilt trip Sigurd into letting her join the army in chapter two, and he insists on conditions for her to join that fight. In chapter 3, he puts his foot down with a guilt trip of his own.

 

45 minutes ago, ping said:

In other words, this is not a Celica thread.

I rather respect the fact that Eirika and Celica haven't really come up in the thread as one of the dumbest yet.

 

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Are we including the stupidity the writers are forcing onto Byleth and Alear for their perpetual refusal to use their nigh-unfettered mastery over space and time to keep people from dying because the writers somehow think the rewind mechanic needs an in-universe explanation?

Which reminds me, people haven't mentioned how silly it is that Ike is just casually keeping the Ragnell in his luggage for a majority of Path of Radiance according to the story, despite how powerful that thing is.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Which reminds me, people haven't mentioned how silly it is that Ike is just casually keeping the Ragnell in his luggage for a majority of Path of Radiance according to the story, despite how powerful that thing is.

Oh damn, yeah, that too. I hated when I first noticed that.

[Sunwoo]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm not sure about it. On one hand it really seems that Corrin came off way dumber then the writers intended and that we weren't supposed to consider him so incompetent. On the other hand the writers themselves wrote the sibling as needing to babysit Corrin and continually hold his hand so things don't go wrong, and they even have a scene where the siblings all conclude Corrin doesn't need to learn because they'll just clean up the mess. That does imply that at some point the writers did start to realize that Corrin was not a smart cookie. 

This is fair, although I feel the writers' intent then was less "Corrin is as dumb as a rock" and more "Corrin's so pure-hearted their siblings would rather protect them than lose that charm".

At least, that's how I interpret it because I imagine the writers didn't actually intend for players to see the stand-in avatar representing them as being dumber than a brick.

18 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

But this is not a place where I am being uncharitable. Dierdre literally has to guilt trip Sigurd into letting her join the army in chapter two, and he insists on conditions for her to join that fight. In chapter 3, he puts his foot down with a guilt trip of his own.

Went back and checked the script, this is fair.

That said, both Sigurd and Deirdre just come off as being really worried about each other's safety in ways that contradict each other's wants. Sigurd worries about Deirdre staying safe (and if you kill Sandima before meeting Deirdre again, she tells Sigurd how she's being hunted) and as far as he knows, her staying away from the battlefield is the best way for her to stay safe. (Manfroy has plot bullshit armor, not going to hold that against either Sigurd or Deirdre.) Deirdre wants Sigurd to stay alive and she knows that he can't avoid fighting, so the only way she can think of to keep him safe is to be beside him on the battlefield to back him up and heal any wounds he may get. At the very least, it doesn't come off as Sigurd browbeating Deirdre to keep her as a domestic wife and mother against her wishes.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Sunwoo

[lenticular]

34 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Dumbest Lord is Edelgard, based on Chapter 11. Picture this - you want to steal the Crest Stones, which are locked in the Holy Tomb. You also have a disguise, and a seemingly-unfettered ability to warp yourself. Do you A) Break in during the one day of the year when the continent's most powerful political figure, and the wielder of the ultimate legendary weapon, are there; or B) Break in on any of the other 364 days of the year? Even if Edelgard couldn't warp down there without visiting beforehand, she could just... join Teach on their field trip there. Hell, everyone would expect that to happen on BE routes, since she's in Teach's class. Why not show up, take a mental inventory of the stones, and do a quick "warp in, snatch em up, warp out" a week later? And while we're at it, how about not bringing monsters and Metodey, when you say you "really don't want to hurt your classmates"?

I don't think that's even Edelgard's dumbest moment. Consider:

In the prologue, Edelgard is attacked by Kostas and very nearly ends up with an axe buried in her skull. She only survives because Byleth decides to leap in front of the axe (which doesn't qualify for dumbest lord status itself on the grounds of being an instinctive reaction rather than a considered one) and then lucks out by happening to have the ability to control time.

In chapter 2, we learn that Kostas has been acting on behalf of his employer, the Flame Emperor.

In chapter 11, we learn that the Flame Emperor is, in fact, Edelgard.

In conclusion: Edelgard orders Kostas to kill Edelgard, without seeming to have any sort of plan to prevent this, and only survives due to ridiculous luck. Edelgard is the dumbest girl.

[Etrurian emperor]

As for Sigurd I don't actually think he comes off as very dumb. In most conflicts he couldn't really have acted any differently then he did. 

In the Augustrian conflict Sigurd had a very personal reason to intervene since his best friend was locked up on false charges and his friend's sister was going to be murdered. But aside from the personal conflict its Chagal who declared war on Sigurd rather than the other way around. He's the one who send troops to Evans castle before Sigurd even moved to save Eldigan. If Sigurd had acted purely ''rational'' and not help Eldigan then Chagal would still have attacked him and Granvelle, and he'd still have to go defeat him.

And while Sigurd was indeed tricked by Arvis and killed its very hard to blame him for that. Arvis a follower of the coup faction but as far as Sigurd knew he was never a real member of it. And by the time Sigurd got tricked Arvis had already helped kill Reptor. With everything that was known about Arvis him just not having been powerful enough to oppose Reptor and biding his chance was a very logical conclusion for Sigurd to draw, especially after Arvis helped kill off Reptor. That Arvis would then doublecross Sigurd isn't something he could rightfully have expected, especially since Arvis acted out of personal motives Sigurd could never have been aware of. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That Arvis would then doublecross Sigurd isn't something he could rightfully have expected, especially since Arvis acted out of personal motives Sigurd could never have been aware of. 

Valflame-hot take, but Sigurd isn't stupid for anything people call him stupid for. Instead, he's stupid for showing up at Belhalla without Tyrfing. Had he brought the sword, it would provide him enough of a resistance boost to survive Arvis' attack and defeat him in turn.

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

In conclusion: Edelgard orders Kostas to kill Edelgard, without seeming to have any sort of plan to prevent this, and only survives due to ridiculous luck. Edelgard is the dumbest girl.

I wonder - did Edelgard imagine she would be among the "noble brats" whom Kostas was targeting? The game never explains how the three of them wound up together, separated from any other students or teachers. It's hard ro envision, say, Dedue leaving Dimitri's side, without a very good reason. So what gives?

Edited December 30, 2023 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I was going to say Corrin for dumbest and Roy for smartest, and I see others have already said that.

I'll expand a little further and say that all three house leaders in Three Houses (even Claude) is in the running for dumbest, because that entire game would be solved if even ONE of them had simply said "Hey, this is what I know about these events. What do you know?" and they just...shared their info. Not a single one of them is smart enough to even try that until after war has started and they're at each others throats and it's too late. Instead, Edelgard hires someone else to kill Dimitri and Claude at the very start of the game and goes in league with Slytherine (you know, the people actually responsible for all of her childhood suffering and trauma), Dimitri gets all moody and won't say why, and Claude gets suspicious of...everyone, and won't say why.

For smartest, I'll throw Marth in the running. He's always seemed to have a pretty good head on his shoulders.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Fire Emblem Fan

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, lenticular said:

I don't think that's even Edelgard's dumbest moment. Consider:

In the prologue, Edelgard is attacked by Kostas and very nearly ends up with an axe buried in her skull. She only survives because Byleth decides to leap in front of the axe (which doesn't qualify for dumbest lord status itself on the grounds of being an instinctive reaction rather than a considered one) and then lucks out by happening to have the ability to control time.

In chapter 2, we learn that Kostas has been acting on behalf of his employer, the Flame Emperor.

In chapter 11, we learn that the Flame Emperor is, in fact, Edelgard.

In conclusion: Edelgard orders Kostas to kill Edelgard, without seeming to have any sort of plan to prevent this, and only survives due to ridiculous luck. Edelgard is the dumbest girl.

What would the original timeline look like with neither Byleth or Shez intervening there? Edelgard, definitely dead, and presumably Claude and Dimitri too. That would lead to a whole mess of differences. Thales is suddenly without his key piece, but at the same time every nation is probably about to embark on a civil war due to multiple succession disputes.

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

As for Sigurd I don't actually think he comes off as very dumb. In most conflicts he couldn't really have acted any differently then he did. 

In the Augustrian conflict Sigurd had a very personal reason to intervene since his best friend was locked up on false charges and his friend's sister was going to be murdered. But aside from the personal conflict its Chagal who declared war on Sigurd rather than the other way around. He's the one who send troops to Evans castle before Sigurd even moved to save Eldigan. If Sigurd had acted purely ''rational'' and not help Eldigan then Chagal would still have attacked him and Granvelle, and he'd still have to go defeat him.

And while Sigurd was indeed tricked by Arvis and killed its very hard to blame him for that. Arvis a follower of the coup faction but as far as Sigurd knew he was never a real member of it. And by the time Sigurd got tricked Arvis had already helped kill Reptor. With everything that was known about Arvis him just not having been powerful enough to oppose Reptor and biding his chance was a very logical conclusion for Sigurd to draw, especially after Arvis helped kill off Reptor. That Arvis would then doublecross Sigurd isn't something he could rightfully have expected, especially since Arvis acted out of personal motives Sigurd could never have been aware of. 

I started a Choose Your Own Adventure Sigurd fan fic a few years back and never finished it. The basic intent being to analyze every decision he could reasonably make and show how Sigurd really never had any choice in the matter. All in all I'm a hard disagree with Kaga that Sigurd was in any way overly naive. Dude was fucked from the start.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Valflame-hot take, but Sigurd isn't stupid for anything people call him stupid for. Instead, he's stupid for showing up at Belhalla without Tyrfing. Had he brought the sword, it would provide him enough of a resistance boost to survive Arvis' attack and defeat him in turn.

Why assume he didn't? Bad guys end up with Tyfing in the end, so he didn't leave it with Shannan or anything. And despite what it might seem like, Sigurd's sprite does not vanish after getting hit by Valflame. So presumably it was all those Generals standing around Sigurd who got the kill and not Alvis. We actually do see the fight itself in the opening demo.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

What would the original timeline look like with neither Byleth or Shez intervening there? Edelgard, definitely dead, and presumably Claude and Dimitri too. That would lead to a whole mess of differences. Thales is suddenly without his key piece, but at the same time every nation is probably about to embark on a civil war due to multiple succession disputes.

I don't know you, but a certain someone will just be impersonating Edelgard if that were to be the case...

That said, I do wonder nowadays if Kostas would've really manage to kill her. Looking at the cutscene, Claude and Dimitri were not that far away from Edelgard. Claude even has his bow still drawn. Chances are, without Byleth rushing to intercept, Claude would've just sniped Kostas from afar.

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I started a Choose Your Own Adventure Sigurd fan fic a few years back and never finished it. The basic intent being to analyze every decision he could reasonably make and show how Sigurd really never had any choice in the matter. All in all I'm a hard disagree with Kaga that Sigurd was in any way overly naive. Dude was fucked from the start.

Wait, really? In the Forum Games section, I take it?

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Why assume he didn't? Bad guys end up with Tyfing in the end, so he didn't leave it with Shannan or anything. And despite what it might seem like, Sigurd's sprite does not vanish after getting hit by Valflame. So presumably it was all those Generals standing around Sigurd who got the kill and not Alvis. We actually do see the fight itself in the opening demo.

 

I mean, Tyrfing can only supply so much protection. If the Res stat is meant to mean anything in-universe, then it's simply put that Sigurd's own defenses to magic were too low to negate the +10 difference Tyring has over Valflame (+20 Res vs +10 Mag). So Sigurd's own paltry magic defenses against Arvis's own high magic power, then add the Holy Weapons, and...

Edited December 30, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[RPGuy96]

I think Sigurd's problem is that he just sort of keeps attacking.  In Verdane, he keeps going after rescuing Edain when he doesn't really need to - he's already destroyed a good part of Verdane's military, he could just go back rather than going through the Spirit Forest.  Jamke's forced to send an army against him, but he doesn't have a horse - Sigurd could just retreat having accomplished his mission, and would Jamke ever catch up to him on foot really pursue him back into Grannvalle?

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

In the Augustrian conflict Sigurd had a very personal reason to intervene since his best friend was locked up on false charges and his friend's sister was going to be murdered. But aside from the personal conflict its Chagal who declared war on Sigurd rather than the other way around. He's the one who send troops to Evans castle before Sigurd even moved to save Eldigan. If Sigurd had acted purely ''rational'' and not help Eldigan then Chagal would still have attacked him and Granvelle, and he'd still have to go defeat him.

Having militant Grannvalle rather than doofy axe barbarian Verdane at Evans is a threat to Augustria.  (Another reason to simply leave Verdane!)  Elliot and Chagall are not nice people, so maybe's there's nothing Sigurd can do to prevent Chapter 2 once he does decide to obey orders and stay in Evans.  But then he obeys orders to stay in Augustria between Chapters 2 and 3, which precipitates several personal crises for him - Eldigan fights him and then is captured, and Deirdre is captured - and in the end he's declared a traitor by Grannvalle anyway!

I don't think any of finishing off Verdane, occupying Evans, or occupying Augustria are necessarily stupid decisions - maybe if he retreats Manfroy is able to get Verdane and Augustria to invade Granvalle together, who knows - but the first shows an impulsiveness, and the latter two a misplaced loyalty to Granvalle, largely due to an ignorance of Grannvalle politics that he probably should know.  The powers there are his buddy, peaceable Prince Kurth, and Reptor and Lombard who don't like him and wanted to invade Isaach - who does he suppose his orders to occupy a quarter of the world are coming from?

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

And while Sigurd was indeed tricked by Arvis and killed its very hard to blame him for that. Arvis a follower of the coup faction but as far as Sigurd knew he was never a real member of it. And by the time Sigurd got tricked Arvis had already helped kill Reptor. With everything that was known about Arvis him just not having been powerful enough to oppose Reptor and biding his chance was a very logical conclusion for Sigurd to draw, especially after Arvis helped kill off Reptor. That Arvis would then doublecross Sigurd isn't something he could rightfully have expected, especially since Arvis acted out of personal motives Sigurd could never have been aware of. 

This I definitely agree with.  The people making a huge mistake in Chapter 5 are Quan and Ethlin.  Sigurd has no particular reason to distrust Arvis and plenty of reasons to think he's friendly.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Valflame-hot take, but Sigurd isn't stupid for anything people call him stupid for. Instead, he's stupid for showing up at Belhalla without Tyrfing. Had he brought the sword, it would provide him enough of a resistance boost to survive Arvis' attack and defeat him in turn.

Yeah, even if Arvis is friendly it wouldn't hurt to have a cool family heirloom sword that provides a massive resistance bonus.  Shades of Ike and Ragnell for sure.  Sometimes you just get the opposite of plot armor.

[Jotari]

46 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Wait, really? In the Forum Games section, I take it?

No, I never finished making it. Might get back to it now that I've been reminded about it.

41 minutes ago, RPGuy96 said:

Yeah, even if Arvis is friendly it wouldn't hurt to have a cool family heirloom sword that provides a massive resistance bonus.  Shades of Ike and Ragnell for sure.  Sometimes you just get the opposite of plot armor.

Guys.. I literally posted the video from the game itself showing that Sigurd had Tyrfing with him.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Why assume he didn't? Bad guys end up with Tyfing in the end, so he didn't leave it with Shannan or anything. And despite what it might seem like, Sigurd's sprite does not vanish after getting hit by Valflame. So presumably it was all those Generals standing around Sigurd who got the kill and not Alvis. We actually do see the fight itself in the opening demo.

Reviewing that battle, it's actually problematic for a few reasons:

1. Sigurd only has 10 Resistance. But he has a base of 3, and Tyrfing gives +20. It is literally impossible for him to have less than 23 Res in such a case.

2. Arvis's attack, defense, and hit rate are all unlisted. As a practical matter, though, he does 48 damage, which means he must have 58 Attack power. Valflame has 30 Might, and grants +10 Magic, so Arvis must have 18 Magic. Which would be 12 points lower than the 30 he had in the prologue.

2b. Interestingly, if Arvis had the proper power, and Sigurd the proper (minimal) Res, then Valflame would do... 47 damage. So it's a reasonable outcome, that they got to in the wrong way.

3. 59 attack power on Sigurd is 4 more than his Strength cap, but he could totally have the Power Ring in hand, so this one gets a pass.

4. Valflame has a Weight of 15, and provides no Speed boost. So, Arvis's Speed of 30 is reduced to an effective AS of 15. Tyrfing has a Weight of 7, but provides +10 Speed, giving it an effective weight of -3. Sigurd isn't shown doubling, meaning his AS must be 15 or lower. So, his Speed stat must be 12 or lower. Sigurd starts out with exactly 12 Speed, so the only case in which he doesn't double is, he hasn't leveled up Speed (30%) once, in twenty-five levels-up. Technically possible, but astronomically improbable.

5. Sigurd actually overly damages Arvis. With 59 Attack power, he does 45 damage, meaning Arvis must have 14 Defense. In the prologue, he has 8 Defense... but Valflame grants +10. At a minimum, he must have 18 Defense, so Tyrfing should only deal 41 damage at most.

So, did Kaga intend that Sigurd did, in fact, bring Tyrfing to Belhalla? Almost certainly yes. Could the battle have proceeded as it's depicted in the intro crawl? In broad strokes, yes, but the numbers are off, and it's exceedingly improbable. Why would Arvis attack Sigurd at melee range, when he could step back and avoid the counter? And why isn't Sigurd doubling, when he almost certainly has the stats to do so? Any melee combat that a 60 HP, less-than-20 Defense Arvis initiates against a 59-Attack Tyrfing Sigurd who has gained a single point of Speed, is going to end in a dead Arvis. ...Unless Arvis procs Adept.

2 hours ago, RPGuy96 said:

This I definitely agree with.  The people making a huge mistake in Chapter 5 are Quan and Ethlin.  Sigurd has no particular reason to distrust Arvis and plenty of reasons to think he's friendly.

"Imagine, being a cavalry unit in a desert chapter."

THIS COMMENT MADE BY

MAGE AND FLIER GANG

3 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I'll expand a little further and say that all three house leaders in Three Houses (even Claude) is in the running for dumbest, because that entire game would be solved if even ONE of them had simply said "Hey, this is what I know about these events. What do you know?" and they just...shared their info.

Claude: "Hey, I'm the Prince of Almyra."

Edelgard: "Hey, I know the secret dark history of the Church and it's rulers."

Dimitri: "Hey... I'm telling!"

Both Claude and Edelgard have serious reasons to distrust Rhea, so it would be phenomenally stupid of them to reveal their secrets to each other - and much less to the goody-two-shoes, pre-skip Dimitri. Unless their plan is to get put under surveillance, thrown out of the Academy, or perhaps even imprisoned.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Reviewing that battle, it's actually problematic for a few reasons:

1. Sigurd only has 10 Resistance. But he has a base of 3, and Tyrfing gives +20. It is literally impossible for him to have less than 23 Res in such a case.

2. Arvis's attack, defense, and hit rate are all unlisted. As a practical matter, though, he does 48 damage, which means he must have 58 Attack power. Valflame has 30 Might, and grants +10 Magic, so Arvis must have 18 Magic. Which would be 12 points lower than the 30 he had in the prologue.

2b. Interestingly, if Arvis had the proper power, and Sigurd the proper (minimal) Res, then Valflame would do... 47 damage. So it's a reasonable outcome, that they got to in the wrong way.

3. 59 attack power on Sigurd is 4 more than his Strength cap, but he could totally have the Power Ring in hand, so this one gets a pass.

4. Valflame has a Weight of 15, and provides no Speed boost. So, Arvis's Speed of 30 is reduced to an effective AS of 15. Tyrfing has a Weight of 7, but provides +10 Speed, giving it an effective weight of -3. Sigurd isn't shown doubling, meaning his AS must be 15 or lower. So, his Speed stat must be 12 or lower. Sigurd starts out with exactly 12 Speed, so the only case in which he doesn't double is, he hasn't leveled up Speed (30%) once, in twenty-five levels-up. Technically possible, but astronomically improbable.

5. Sigurd actually overly damages Arvis. With 59 Attack power, he does 45 damage, meaning Arvis must have 14 Defense. In the prologue, he has 8 Defense... but Valflame grants +10. At a minimum, he must have 18 Defense, so Tyrfing should only deal 41 damage at most.

So, did Kaga intend that Sigurd did, in fact, bring Tyrfing to Belhalla? Almost certainly yes. Could the battle have proceeded as it's depicted in the intro crawl? In broad strokes, yes, but the numbers are off, and it's exceedingly improbable. Why would Arvis attack Sigurd at melee range, when he could step back and avoid the counter? And why isn't Sigurd doubling, when he almost certainly has the stats to do so? Any melee combat that a 60 HP, less-than-20 Defense Arvis initiates against a 59-Attack Tyrfing Sigurd who has gained a single point of Speed, is going to end in a dead Arvis. ...Unless Arvis procs Adept.

Maybe Alvis had a speed ring. Course the reason he attacked at Melee range is so we could have the following scene where Deirdre heals him after the battle.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Jotari