(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins! - Post Game is up!

[Makaze]

2 minutes ago, charlie_ said:

Tbh I was planning on switching onto Makaze earlier today once they were around to pressure, but their recent posting has been kind of good.

##Vote: @Rapier

Their recent posting around Shinori feels pretty inconsistent. The criticism of Shinori for being defensive vs me and then admitting to have not really read the contents of that post isn't great, and then their stance change feels very abrupt:

Shinori didn't post a ton between these two posts, so this feels like a bit of a weird development? I tried looking and couldn't find any other place where Rapier said Shinori's content had improved so this feels kinda like he's appeasing Shinori when they got pushback, because this opinion wasn't really present in their posts before. I'm also scratching my head a bit at Shinori's talk with me improving Rapier's view on him when they were criticising it? It feels like a mess.

I have 5 people I wouldn't vote and everyone else is nulltown-kinda scummy. I definitely don't have a PoE yet.

who are those 5 people

a simple one liner list like mine should be fine

[BT.]

Bluedoom (4): Makaze, Percivale, Rapier, Snike
Sunwoo (3): Bluedoom, Refa, WeaponsofMassConstruction
Refa (1):  j00
Snike (2): BBM, Prims
Makaze (2): Elieson, Sunwoo
Rapier (1): charlie
WeaponsofMassConstruction (1): Shinori
Not voting (2): BT., CT075
 

Here is the current votals btw. Not much has changed but I wanted to confirm that because there are a lot of floating / stale / non-committal votes around and I couldn't tell who wants to vote who.

 

##Vote @Refa

This is a mix of disagreeable reads / votes and a lack of convincing reads. Lot of hemming and hawing and questioning but no strong reads that I can put a finger on, feels like leaving a lot of options in the air. Refa is a good enough player to type out reasonable town-sounding processes, but I would expect it to be backed up by some stronger gut feelings. All the while stuff like this.. (mind the indirect quotes, the website refuses to post the multi-quotes for some reason)
 

Quote

 A lot of the Makaze scumreads seem to be “I don’t like Makaze’s posts but I never read him well so I’m not going to start trying now” which is kind of defeatist? Don’t like that thought process (I think I saw this from BBM, j00, and Snike).

I disagree with the Makaze vote in general and think it stems from (ironcially) not actually attempting to read the slot, and quotes like this smell like an easy way to attract attention to that wagon without actually breaking it down. There's a lot of content there, very convenient to focus on the lack of solid vote / case (a lot of players have flimsy votes right now, as a fact). I don't agree with the Boron vote either, and this -

Quote

Boron’s Makaze vote is throwing me for a loop. It’s not uh…what I’d expect Scum!Boron to place her vote on. I hate it here.

Im currently kinda busy at the moment. Boron, you mentioned Elie/SB. Can you get those rereads done when you get back? I’m pretty sure I need to reevaluate things and that would definitely help.

..reads like scum giving up rather than town having a change of heart. There's a lot of meat there, while I see why the Maka vote would give you pause it just seems like an easy way to give up on the case in the face of more content from the slot.

I think Charlie is guilty of similar things, just don't have as strong of a read there. Mainly juggling a lot of possible votes in the air, I don't find myself agreeing with their reads, and I'm not impressed by the 1v1 with Shinori, seems like they're maintaining the scumread there without really engaging.

[Makaze]

14 minutes ago, BBM said:

you're essentially correct that I'm refusing to engage with an impossible situation but your conclusion is wrong. until the most recent posts, there was so little you had for me to respond to that I felt like if you were town, the best way for me to actually convince you of anything was to just play my game. your first reason for finding me scum was "vibes but they might change if you solve the game", so uh I tried solving the game. i was hardly the only person to avoid engaging with you or committing to a read on you because there was nothing to say except "that's wack". am I supposed to have more of a read on you because your vibes are wrong? townies are wrong all the time. i was kind of leaning scum on you. i just didn't feel confident enough in it because of your playstyle to get into the situation of spending half my time just on you, but I guess at this point it's going to happen anyways! i will say that seeing your process and also seeing you commit to interacting more with people made me feel significantly better about you so I'm back to a more neutral level. again I really do feel like it will be easier to read you as the game goes on and you have to evolve your reads so I'm not that fussed about it.

i could probably be doing a better job asking questions but the difference between me and you (prior to this post) is I was actually giving reasons for my vibes instead of just stating them for my own benefit. also, if i list stuff i dont like about someone, they're going to respond to it regardless of whether i put a ? at the end, particularly if i vote them

as for me only finding snike scummy via defending marth, that's just... wrong? if i literally vote someone for it how is it toothless? it's also straight up wrong that I never said my feelings about marth. I said at least twice that I tried reading marth and didn't agree with the reasons people gave for voting him, said i wasn't directly townreading but generally found the votes against him more objectionable than anything he did.

i define "marth wagon" as people who voted or expressed strong suspicion for marth. i dont trust any of your votals (sorry) so off the top of my head I believe that's you, rapier, snike, boron, sb (not everyone might have an active vote). i found boron and sb's votes ok though obviously i disagree. i also like the rest of sb's stuff more than other people's, and thought boron's overall tone was townie. other than those, i basically disliked all of your/rapier/snike's votes there. however after I hit send, I took a step back from considering everyone in a vacuum, and realized that it was actually pretty unlikely for 3 scum to all hop on the same wagon that early, so I wanted to disengage and think a bit more about it. i'm kind of waffling on rapier atm, unsure.

also forgot to mention with snike, it turns out I misread part of his vote, but then his initial reason for voting marth is even slimmer. it's really just "oh listread post bad" and nothing else. That's so basic and Snike is still on that.

i am actually reading this now

Boron and sb's votes be okay, and sb and boron feel like town, and yet "everyone on the wagon" seemed scummy?

[charlie_]

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

who are those 5 people

a simple one liner list like mine should be fine

Marth, j00, Prims, Snike, Weapons
The middle is a mess that I don't care to rank.
Rapier, Elieson

[j00]

Struggled with ISO because I downloaded the wrong script somehow but anyhow! ISOs are working now brb gonna read

[Iris]

Iris™ Votals: Day 1.2 (~51 hours left)

Bluedoom (4): Makaze, Percivale, Rapier, Snike
Makaze (2): Elieson, Sunwoo
Refa (2):  BT., j00
Snike (2): BBM, Prims
Sunwoo (2): Refa, WeaponsofMassConstruction
Rapier (1): charlie
WeaponsofMassConstruction (1): Shinori
Not Voting (2): Bluedoom, CT075

The player with the most votes at the end of the Day phase will be Eliminated! With 16 alive, it takes 6 votes minimum to Eliminate a player and 10 votes to Hammer the phase early!

* Votals are listed by largest wagon and then alphabetically; votes are also listed alphabetically. You can see the full voting history below. DM me if there are any errors.

 

VOTING HISTORY - Day 1

Page 2:

Rapier votes for Prims
Snike votes for Rapier
Sunwoo votes for Snike
Shinori votes for Elieson
Prims votes for Snike
Refa votes for Makaze
Prims votes for Shinori

Page 3:

BBM votes for Makaze
Makaze votes for BBM

Page 4:

WeaponsofMassConstruction votes for Prims
Shinori votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction
Rapier votes for Makaze
Sunwoo votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 5:
Shinori votes for Elieson
Bluedoom votes for Refa
Rapier votes for BBM

Page 6:
WeaponsofMassConstruction votes for Sunwoo
Rapier votes for Bluedoom

Page 7:
Refa votes for Sunwoo
Bluedoom votes for Sunwoo
Sunwoo votes for Refa

Page 8:
BBM votes for Prims

Page 9:
Makaze votes for Bluedoom
Shinori votes for Prims

Page 10:
Snike votes for Bluedoom
charlie votes for Shinori
Prims votes for Snike
BBM votes for Snike
Shinori votes for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 11:
Percivale votes for Bluedoom
j00 votes for Refa

Page 12:
Elieson votes for Makaze

Page 13:

Sunwoo votes for Makaze
Bluedoom unvotes

Page 14:
charlie votes for Rapier

Page 15:
BT. votes for Refa

Edited May 26 by Iris

[Rapier]

4 hours ago, BBM said:

i think this is the post I really took issue with where more than half the players were scum/leaning scum/sliding towards scum.

idk tho in hindsight I feel like in my endeavour to find scum on the Marth wagon I've basically found everyone on it scummy, which is equally unlikely

Yeah, I understand it's hasty to have reads on people due to 3 hours of content on RVS (and I guess early D1) content. I know they're very basic reasons and as I said before, it's the best reads I could gather from the little time I interacted with them. So far I remain in the same spot about Marth, feel slightly better about Shinori, neutral about Sunwoo and Prims, Weapons seems like a confused townie but could go either way - I still don't want to judge him for RVS stuff. 

I feel like too much is happening in a small timespan and I feel like an old man after a marathon

8 hours ago, Shinori said:

There's a thing I've seen and heard of, which has sometimes proven to be true, that the first wagon to 3 votes(idk if boron's wagon is the first wagon to get to 3 or not) that either the wagonee or the third voter is scum.

I don't particularly believe this but supposedly there are some statistics to support it somewhere.  And it was true in my last game played.

Shinori it is scum behavior to spread misinformation online

 

--------------

I honestly have no idea how you guys are able to remember meta and use it as an argument when the last time we played with each other was like, 5 years ago (if I'm good at math. I'm not).

 

2 hours ago, Refa said:

 You never answered my question from before. Also I never voted Shinori nor have I even scumread Shinori (Snike mentioned this too, very confusing) so not sure where you’re getting that from. I feel like you’re not really reading my posts. What makes Elieson’s Makaze read stuck in RVS compared to your Makaze read?

I don't even remember mentioning you scumread Shinori lol

I think Elieson focused on Makaze's previous interactions rather than Makaze's newest one about his gut feeling on BBM.

[BBM]

2 hours ago, Refa said:

Boron’s Makaze vote is throwing me for a loop. It’s not uh…what I’d expect Scum!Boron to place her vote on. I hate it here.

Im currently kinda busy at the moment. Boron, you mentioned Elie/SB. Can you get those rereads done when you get back? I’m pretty sure I need to reevaluate things and that would definitely help.

why wouldn't scum Boron place a vote on Makaze? I don't think anyone was actively townreading makaze and people generally don't like his playstyle.

23 minutes ago, charlie_ said:

Marth, j00, Prims, Snike, Weapons
The middle is a mess that I don't care to rank.
Rapier, Elieson

I'm a bit confused by your progression on marth. you don't like some of his early posts, then have him in a "??? category but different from null", and now you definitely wouldn't vote them? 

@Makaze Snike's vote is the most opportunistic. like Prims said, Snike had much more specific suspicion about things Prims did, whereas the Marth thing was a very stock reason for a vote with very little about the content of Marth's post rather than the form of it. put that together with the timing of it (it's basically the vote that makes it a wagon).

also I missed that via voted (and is still voting for marth). tbh I also don't think via's vote is very good. it's actually pretty similar to snike's and I definitely want to see him come back with more content. that being said via did have slightly more to it in a follow up post. also it's just very easy with via to tell when he's scum, and he's clearly not in this game. as scum he's way more self-conscious and doesn't trust himself to post stream-of-consciousness like he has in this game so far, so the tone is much more stilted. and then half the time he subs out anyways because he hates it, although that last part might be less applicable now.

also there are probably only 3-4 scum so yeah I think if I find 3 people scummy on an early wagon that's not good. maybe I should have said "a lot of people" instead of "everyone"

[Rapier]

2 hours ago, Percivalé said:

I'm up and I have to go out like Now so no time to read the thread yet but wanted to answer the ping from @Refa , I was stream of consciousness-ing as I read the thread so just giving off my observations as they came to me. I don't like leaving giant posts without a vote and weapons was feeling like a vote I should make only once I got the entire context of the thread. my statement that he'd be an easy early scum vote was made as like a, if my assumption is wrong and he is town I'm gonna keep that in mind for later because a couple people switched to voting for him in succession p fast and it gave me Vibes.  hope that makes sense

I don't understand this hesitation on voting for someone you're scumreading on early/mid D1. There's no chance Weapons will be lynched soon because of that, and voting adds pressure. It could be just a personal preference (voting when you're sure of the entire context), but at the same time this reads as overly cautiousness and self-consciousness to not be associated with the wagon in case Weapons turns out as town.

Ugh reading is difficult

[Snike]

Hi I'm phoneposting for a bit while hanging out with my sister's dog. I had quoteblocks up but keyboard won't let me delete mentions.

@Refa Let's clear things up a bit: Firstly, I don't scumread Makaze. I said I wasn't familiar with scum meta, but this is within what I would expect of Town!Makaze. Ie I believe town atm.

Now, my turn: Your post at the top of page 7, last section, begins with "I can't speak for other people [...]," Is that not a read or null/neg vibe on Shinori?

@BBM I do. What do you think about the "What am I supposed to do?" post I address in the spoiler post st the top of 13? I don't think it's a charitable framing of my argument (aka the questions are loaded) + scum flailing. Later on, the pivot to boron bothers me because it does the same thing Refa was being accused of, IMO, and I don't believe I've seen a meaningful answer as to how these are different.

You said something along the lines of you don't like what I was prioing. In that case, What do you think I should prio, especially when people aren't directly responding to stuff like the Prims breakdown? I don't think talking about Weapons beyond the read is too productive, and am waiting on feedback about prims stuff. Will just say in the vote post I'm still chewing on the retreat from Shinori, because I can see it both as Shinori has improved and another case of a soft, malleable stance to try and draw down conflict.

@Bluedoom Funny because I could say the same about my wagon, or well at least Prims could be read as either OMGUS for going after them or chainsawing the vote on you. But that's a bit dramatic and talking chainsaws before anyone has flipped is hasty. Why do you think I intentionally ignored the vote change over just having made the reads on impressions? That is again not very charitable framing, especially as it was the early morning hours when I posted.

Similarly, please explain to the class how your questions to Sunwoo/Boron when you flipped votes are meaningfully different from Refa's inquiries, which were, as you said,  "too many questions without a conclusion."

Vote stays put. Not sure I like Cam phrasing things that the Prims read on me makes sense when voiced. "Opportunistic" is another cynical framing and I already went into why my entrance isn't safe imo. How I'd frame it at the time would be "The first two players could conceivably have changed in style and tone" versus "I think there's a problem here." I've since strengthened my reads but I still think Marth is the most sus right now.

Can someone explain to me why Prims is being townread over the early content? I'm having trouble getting over the mixed messaging due to what I cited in the wall. (The bold was my emphasis). Like I get having reservations/ hesitations with this revival game. Voicing those and constantly hedging the reads serves to dilute the points made and is what I would call 'safe'. 'Self-conscious' if I were to be so bold.

@Rapier my memory is pretty good? And while people can and will change posting styles (your style's changed for example) there's definitely an essence to posting that's hard to change immediately, especially after such a long sabbatical.

BT. When you get the chance would you like to chime in?

 

[BT.]

Quote

BT. When you get the chance would you like to chime in?

On what? Prims? Or in general? I'm sleeping in an hour but I did want to rattle off at least another post.

[Snike]

2 minutes ago, BT. said:

On what? Prims? Or in general? I'm sleeping in an hour but I did want to rattle off at least another post.

Prims, myself, BBM would be appreciated. I don't believe you've mentioned either of the latter 2 (myself, BBM) directly outside of votals. Stretch goal being clarification on your marth/bluedoom stance. Sound good?

[Sunwoo]

I read Rapier's later posts. I don't really have an issue with them because I feel like he is making a town effort to give his reads on things and people. Can see his initial logic on Shinori, even if I don't agree with it, but I didn't have a problem with his reply to Shinori either. Still feel Rapier is more townie than not.

On reread I don't have an issue with Snike, although I'm struggling a bit to remember that he is playing. That said, that's a "me" problem and not a Snike problem, so for the time being I'm fine with him. Would not pursue.

3 hours ago, Makaze said:

Is there a specific type of content that would help you relate to me?

Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner. Basically, it's hard to understand why you're scum reading someone when your main reason is that you're getting "weird vibes" and "gut feelings". The post you made right before this quoted one (which I failed to address at the time) made a better effort at explaining the BBM and Marth reads, by explaining why you think their actions or lack thereof felt scummy. But overall, it feels like your reasonings aren't very concrete. (I also don't agree with your BBM read, but that's neither here nor there.)

It's also odd that despite BBM being apparently your greatest scum read (even now) you're not really pursuing it and were even willing to table it when I called you out on tunneling.

Some other updated thoughts.

Prims and Weapons' absences are not amazing. As stated earlier, I didn't have an issue with Prims' actual content and stuff, but his lack of presence is just really concerning me at this point. I'm willing to give Prims up to D2 to establish a presence because I know they sometimes have trouble getting into the game D1 even as town, but still. Weapons felt like Weapons earlier in the day, but they seem to have just fallen off the radar. I'd say that his sudden disappearance and lack of content reminds me of Kirby mafia where he was scum, but that game is 12 years old and probably not great for meta. Either way, it's not a good look.

Would like Refa to explain why voting Makaze doesn't seem like a scum!me thing to do.

BT is fine. To answer your question from earlier, on why I couldn't see what the scum intent in Makaze buddying up was, it was mostly because of how early in the game it happened. He was doing it in a way that seemed so blatant and inexplicable that it felt like it was more likely to draw negative attention than not.

2 hours ago, charlie_ said:

For future reference you should probably take “iffy” as synonymous with “kind of scummy” in my posts ftr. It’s just a phrasing thing.

Noted.

[Prims]

Man there's a lot of posts.

Mods can you order the votals so that wagons are in order of who voted first to who voted last? The voting order seems generally inconsistent and it's misleading to people who are used to the former method.

[j00]

3 hours ago, Refa said:

 I keep reading that I’m active lurking, I think you should link posts where I’m not actively pressuring people or working on a read. It should be easy to do if you’re right and there’s no reason not too! 

You ask a lot of questions with rather brief comments on the answers, more than I can feel you form reads. These two posts for example are mainly fluff. Your later posts feel more substantial, and posts like these two feel like more "natural" reactions and your reasoning seems fair.

I feel Snike is tunneling on Marth and the list post, he keeps repeating how the list post felt off at time and that Marth should have tried to converse more "naturally" that early on in the game, but he doesn't follow up on much more analysis past that besides saying that he still doesn't look good. There are now pages of conversations between Marth and Rapier/Boron, what are you thoughts on the actual conversations then?
PEDIT: yeah his lastest post is better.
I do agree with him and Boron on how Prims has played it very safe and stayed as a background presence.  

Same with Weapons, who also feels like he's coasting and the sentiment seems to be that people sort of agree but are giving him a pass because he's not a probable lynch today? I find it weird of suspicion on him fizzled out. He places a vote on Boron, leaves, comes back with the reasoning that

Quote

She came out of the gate with some good pressure questions but as the game exited rvs she hasn't kept that up and has been pretty noncommital about her reads. 

which hasn't been the case for a long time now.

Cam really needs to place a vote somewhere. I'm aware that I basically kickstarted the "I don't understand Makaze so I won't bother to try" train of thought that BBM and Cam also uses as an excuse to not put Makaze under more pressure, but Cam has a lot to say about his doubts on Makaze just to not... vote anyone. Even though he says he's willing to sheep Prims on Snike or even Makaze on BBM it feels odd that he doesn't actually put pressure on anything here.

Both Elie and BT came late and they read a bit low effort, gonna have a proper look at their posts. 

I really don't feel like lynching Marth today. The wagon on him still feels like a cheap opportunity. 

Fine I'll read Makaze and the interactions/votes from/on Boron and BBM.
But for now I feel better about Refa, not entirely sure about Snike. I want more from Weapons and Cam.
##Vote: @WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Prims]

I'm not a background presence the game has literally been going on for less than 24 hours. Rather the people posting too much are insane.

[Sunwoo]

Just now, Prims said:

I'm not a background presence the game has literally been going on for less than 24 hours. Rather the people posting too much are insane.

I do not contest that I am insane, and that I need to post less. I don't want to have the third highest number of posts here.

[j00]

I think you suffer from legendary pro-active meta meaning anything short of faking a dayvig feels like playing it safe for you

[BT.]

8 minutes ago, Snike said:

Prims, myself, BBM would be appreciated. I don't believe you've mentioned either of the latter 2 (myself, BBM) directly outside of votals. Stretch goal being clarification on your marth/bluedoom stance. Sound good?

Gucci. 🙆‍♂️ I started off with a slight townread on Prims that probably doesn't hold up to scrutiny, If I had to explain why it's probably that they seemed earnest about wanting to help w/ the early game? Thought the Shinori vote felt genuine too. Not gonna sit here and ramble on RVS stuff though - I think their case on you makes sense for both alignments, right now I wanna see where they stand w.r.t other things. BBM meanwhile I have a stronger townlead on, feels frank and direct and generally like he's saying what he wants to say. I need to re-read your posts, I frankly haven't spent long enough on your slot, but I think you're agreeable enough. Clarification on Marth - I actually went back and forth here, but I think he's tonally town. I think scum in his slot would be playing differently, and the flat unvote is a strong indicator imo, instead of scrambling to get a different vote going.

[Percivalé]

sorry I'm still gonna be booked until like 9pm tonight so there's gonna be no content from me until then, WRT my bluedoom vote idk I'm not done reading the thread yet so I dont have full context and his first post was so bad to me he felt like a better vote than weapons . dunno what else I can say about that rly

[BT.]

It seems cheap to say but I'd support weapons/elieson as a wagon too, weapons because I'm bad with reading that type of sparsely posting player and pressure / the boot would help, and elie because I thought his singular post was pretty scummy, but I don't think he was even caught up when he posted it. I'm not interested in voting Rapier at the moment.

[BBM]

I can still use meta because my memory is a steel trap, i've never forgotten anything ever

@Snike I'm honestly trying to read your post as charitably as I can and (in the spoiler post) it still just seems like you keep harping on Marth about the fact that he made a listpost and that it was too early rather than the content of that. the only time you've engaged with what he said in that listpost is the refa vote. but what about marth's opinions in that post about rapier or weapons or boron? and I think that your refa townread is well reasoned, but what's the scum intent that marth is showing by voting refa there? like you said it's not "genuine" but what would the genuine thing to do have been? vote me? I read that post from marth mostly as "here's everyone that's posted in the thread so far, here are the two people who I think don't have any green flags, and I'm going to vote the one who's currently active". 

you also didn't actually engage with marth's vote on boron until this latest post, other than to say the vote switch didn't make sense because refa's play hadn't changed very much from his initial vote. so what did you actually think the townie thing to do would have been, continue a bad refa push? as for what you said about the boron vote in this latest post, I also just don't see your point about how it's just questions without a conclusion. he's voting boron! he said he thought boron's stuff was hypocritical!

in terms of priority, I think I want to see you engage with things that are not related to marth or defending yourself from me and prims. this latest post had a bit about cam and some questions to BT that felt a bit better- tbh at this point feel like only non-marth stuff can make me feel better about you because everything with marth just feels so forced, and even if you post more stuff about it i'll basically only feel like you're tunnelling

I think prims has one good post so obviously I'd want it to be more, but at this stage I'm not interested in pushing someone with one good content post over someone with no good content posts

[BBM]

i think weapons is scummy but a vote on him feels a bit boring at the moment to me. at least Snike is responding so I'd rather pursue that atm. weapons is always available as a turbolunch if everything else fails 🙂 (side note the current SF emojis look SO bad)

elie just needs to post more. weapons was at least around ED1 to get a bit more idea in terms of interactions after he flips so elie feels like a more natural n2 vig target if it doesn't improve

[BT.]

🤫

🛌

[Makaze]

2 minutes ago, BBM said:

i think weapons is scummy but a vote on him feels a bit boring at the moment to me. at least Snike is responding so I'd rather pursue that atm. weapons is always available as a turbolunch if everything else fails 🙂 (side note the current SF emojis look SO bad)

elie just needs to post more. weapons was at least around ED1 to get a bit more idea in terms of interactions after he flips so elie feels like a more natural n2 vig target if it doesn't improve

Which posts make you think Weapons is scummy?