(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins!

[j00]

2 minutes ago, BBM said:

side note the current SF emojis look SO bad

wdym they look great 

[BBM]

4 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Which posts make you think Weapons is scummy?

 

2 hours ago, BBM said:

weapons is probably scum. i think he's trying to imitate his own meta of floating around asking questions, but the questions are too narrow and about just general gameplay theory ("how do you think your meta has evolved since you last played", "what would you be doing differently as scum"), he hasn't committed to anything, and there's not enough questions to be meaningful.

i also didn't like that he unvoted prims so fast because I felt the initial prims vote was actually good at the time, but I'm not sure there's specific scum intent there so eh.

in the interests of me not just over-analyzing or over-responding to everything though I feel like at this point I have a reasonable handle on the game state and will let other people post for a while.

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, BBM said:

 

i also didn't like that he unvoted prims so fast because I felt the initial prims vote was actually good at the time, but I'm not sure there's specific scum intent there so eh.

in the interests of me not just over-analyzing or over-responding to everything though I feel like at this point I have a reasonable handle on the game state and will let other people post for a while.

(Alarm bells are ringing again)

Please quote the posts/progression that you felt was "copying his own meta", and where you think he jumped off of Prims too early/what stuck out to you about that progression

[j00]

Man, I still don't get Makaze's train of thought. With stuff like being absolutely certain of alignment based off a gut read from post 1 in RVS, but I also don't see the scum intent. At least no sane native scum!SF-er would vote someone, say they're 100% scum based on vibes and refuse to elaborate. 

I think Boron's vote on them is fine even if I don't think they're scum, at least for when she placed the vote she was right about their actual content being very thin. They've improved on interactions after that but still not feeling the BBM tunneling. Like, it barely feels like genuine scumhunting because Makaze keeps prodding BBM for random stuff in way that feels like they're trying to trip BBM up rather than explaining the scum intent behind his posts? 

There's this post but it feels fabricated, like "BBM is scum and I will cherrypick things to support my claim " instead of "These things seem scummy to me". They also keep saying that BBM keeps ignoring their "case" on him but how tf do you defend yourself from someone saying you're scum no matter what because of ~vibes~? I'm null on BBM but Makaze's death tunnel is not selling me on anything. 

I think Cam's read and drop on Makaze is a bit lazy but I'm not interested in pushing Makaze today either.

[Sunwoo]

j00, just for clarification's sake, are you reading Makaze as town/more-likely-town-than-scum or do you think he could be scum but he's just not a priority for the time being?

[Makaze]

5 minutes ago, j00 said:

Man, I still don't get Makaze's train of thought. With stuff like being absolutely certain of alignment based off a gut read from post 1 in RVS, but I also don't see the scum intent. At least no sane native scum!SF-er would vote someone, say they're 100% scum based on vibes and refuse to elaborate. 

I think Boron's vote on them is fine even if I don't think they're scum, at least for when she placed the vote she was right about their actual content being very thin. They've improved on interactions after that but still not feeling the BBM tunneling. Like, it barely feels like genuine scumhunting because Makaze keeps prodding BBM for random stuff in way that feels like they're trying to trip BBM up rather than explaining the scum intent behind his posts? 

There's this post but it feels fabricated, like "BBM is scum and I will cherrypick things to support my claim " instead of "These things seem scummy to me". They also keep saying that BBM keeps ignoring their "case" on him but how tf do you defend yourself from someone saying you're scum no matter what because of ~vibes~? I'm null on BBM but Makaze's death tunnel is not selling me on anything. 

I think Cam's read and drop on Makaze is a bit lazy but I'm not interested in pushing Makaze today either.

>Tells people that any case I post is going to get called out for being made up because the reasons are not why the read started
>I try to explain my reads with reasoning using stuff that happened after I had them as scum
>It happens exactly as I expect

The only way you guys are going to see that I'm right is if I force something more damning than "because Makaze said so" to come out in the thread. My options as someone who is 100% confident with something that no one else can relate to are to believe it quietly, or believe it loudly.

All of my cases in this game are going to be fabricated until we have some real evidence, such as mechanics or associatives, and I do not expect to live to endgame unless I am usefully wrong the whole game.

You will not be able to read me based on my case quality; you will have to read me based off of my accuracy

[j00]

Too-wack-to-be-scum. But I just think there's a massive culture clash here.

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

You will not be able to read me based on my case quality; you will have to read me based off of my accuracy

Which is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE on D1 with NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE FOR ANY ALIGNMENT WHATSOEVER

[Makaze]

For some insight on my play, I am coming from my main exposure to the game being spectator chats only for about 5 years.

[j00]

Like, you keep giving me reasons for ignoring you this phase!!!!!111!!!!!!!!!!!1!

I'm going to bed now, but yeah don't have anything to add. I don't plan to try to read Makaze before any associate flips, kills or wagon analysis can be made. 

[Sunwoo]

2 minutes ago, j00 said:

Too-wack-to-be-scum. But I just think there's a massive culture clash here.

That's fair.

I still stand by my case that Makaze's not contributing to the game state in a meaningful way though, and it really doesn't improve my read on him that he keeps on doing more of the same stuff that I voted him for.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

sorry guys, just been super dead today, actually quite motivated and the game has been really good so far imo, but the juice isn't quite there. i think i was caught up to the point of when i last posted and had some developed thoughts about what happened overnight (like pages 8-12?) and then these last few pages i have looked at but brain is not really processing yet. i'll try to go through things now and see what i can come up with

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

i guess to address votes on me first: @BBM I think the main point is that I unvoted Prims rather lightly? That is true, but my initial vote was not very strong and more than anything just try to move things out of RVS. While I do think there is something to the original point, I also think Prims would be aware enough of that aspect of his meta and so the point would not be very AI. Which is the sense also that I got from Prims as he initially replied, so I felt there was nothing more there to pursue. As wrt to where I stand on him now, as far as I've caught up, the most interesting thing was that one post where he voted Snike. He actually had a lot of really good thoughts wrt to Makaze, but then I also struggled to understand his Snike case, which I guess weirded me out for hard to explain reasons, but something along of the lines of where I feel like I should equate unreadable with scummy. Speaking of which, I'm quite suspicious of Rapier atm precisely because of this reason, but it's weird cause like people are gonna expect you to make a case and explain your vote and whatnot, but really what I have here is that my brain just refuses to process what he's saying. So how am I supposed to work with that. I'd agree tentatively with what I think SB (?) or whoever said with this newer wave of suspicion on him, but also I wouldn't say I'm particularly good with those lines of reasoning or anything. I think j00 is mostly prodding? Then I'm very speculatively saying that I think Shinori is just paranoid about being pocketed, but it's too late it's already working that was definitely not my intent, and actually something not consciously in my scum game, at least last I checked. I also think maybe you should pocket people as town lol.

I think Boron is good now, haven't really paid in depth attention to her posts, but definitely in the "revist if need to" category. I don't see the case for Marth at all really, and if anything I've seen a lot more original thoughts that I agree with and feel are probably town sourced. I guess I asked about meta here because I do think town Marth had/has a very wagonable meta, but also uhhh...something. Ok I'm going to reread now

##Vote: @Rapier

who here agrees with Rapier's logic on stuff? I feel like we are town reading him because he's active, but that really reminds me of the previous game with Paperblade and whatnot. i'm struggling to determine whether he is using his reasoning honestly (as opposed to manipulatively)

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

##Vote: @Rapier

who here agrees with Rapier's logic on stuff? I feel like we are town reading him because he's active, but that really reminds me of the previous game with Paperblade and whatnot. i'm struggling to determine whether he is using his reasoning honestly (as opposed to manipulatively)

Which reasoning do you consider potentially manipulative?

[Sunwoo]

So, here's a fun fact! I was making a post on how I feel about each player expressed via Sabaton song, but posting all those links there not only crashed SF, but my entire computer.

SF is too lame for amazing heavy metal, confirmed. Trash site.

Me

BBM
Marth
BT
SB
Cam
Elie
j00
Makaze
Percivale
Prims
Rapier
Refa
Shinori (the Swedish version is better though)
Snike
Weapons

And on that note, I'm gonna do something else for a while. Be back later, I guess.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

Which reasoning do you consider potentially manipulative?

it's the general pattern where he responds to stuff, and then is then is like "this is bad because: [classic mafia scumtell]". like, does he really believe in the scumtell or is he just using it to look reasonable. i mean i guess i ask the question for pretty much everyone, which is why i'm leaning more towards non-standard "town leaks" vibes sorts of reads nowadays

[Prims]

man I use a wider monitor than I did when I used to post in mafia years back so when I write my posts in Notepad++ they look smaller to me than they actually are. Gonna start reducing Notepad++'s width to the size of SF's post column while writing

I'm feeling a bit better about Snike after this post which does explain why his priorities are the way they were - there is still a bit of weirdness to me though in that I thought his reply to me made him sound more tonally adamant about me than Marth (in a way where I wondered if it was forced bluster, since Marth was still his vote) and personally I think people have been iffy enough on me and Weapons that suspecting us wasn't really going against the grain of the thread like he says. His posting since his entrance has felt more engaged though so I think I'm OK moving him down the suspect list for now.

##Unvote
##Vote: @Makaze

I want to push this more. Tbh I've continuously found Makaze's posting useless and it bugs me because this is what I'd expect from an unorthodox player who randed maf - posts that give up the appearance of unorthodox play but don't really move us forward at all. I don't see town's desire to find scum and work with other people to lynch them in his posts, his pushes on Bluedoom and BBM have started out vague and he requires pushing before he tries to convince other people on them. He's usually interacting with BBM, who is his main scumread, but not in a way that seems to evolve his read or produce a convincing argument why BBM is scum. Damn it there's more "it's so weird he doesn't find a slot like me scummy" komaeda danganronpa (not refa) style posting too and here it's really inconclusive.

50 minutes ago, Makaze said:

All of my cases in this game are going to be fabricated until we have some real evidence, such as mechanics or associatives, and I do not expect to live to endgame unless I am usefully wrong the whole game.

! Okay you are being Proto then. What are they teaching people on mafiauniverse. If you're Weird Town and not scum then I still need you to actually engage with the game more beyond "these are my thoughts I can't make convincing arguments out of" and defending yourself, because you are still posting within the framework of a game where you have a win condition. I can't really tell how you feel about existing wagons and other people's cases, which flips you think would help gamestate for you even if you have no reads, etc. Basically you come off as oddly unengaged with the actual "lynch scum" part of the game for somebody posting as much as you are.
@Makaze when you do the post-by-post-analysis of BBM here you open up by saying his first post is "innocent enough" but it was what got you to first call him scummy. Was your initial read on him a bluff or did you really gutread him over his RVS entrance?

Weapons' slot has been looking worse to me now for similar reasons to BBM's post here. Feels like Weapons is throwing stuff out there but not meaningfully and not developing on it. In general he looks like somebody who is struggling to get a feel for the game but I don't see any effective attempts to get a feel for it either, so I'm starting to lean scum there. He cut me with a content post so I need to read that.

Echoing that Elie's entrance isn't great, confused by him citing a gut read on BBM but not really trying to make heads or tails with how his main scum read is doing the same thing. @Elieson I'd like to hear how you feel about BBM's more recent posts. In general the early BBM gut reads in this game have always looked unnatural to me because BBM's earliest posts were still very RVS.

@CT075 you've ducked out without voting twice now, is there a specific reason you seem uncomfortable committing to a vote yet even though both times you've had a general idea of who you suspect the most?
@Shinori why Weapons over SB? I was confused when you wrote a massive kind of snarky rebuttal to SB then SB wasn't your top priority.
@Refa you feel scattershot right now and I can't tell if you have scumreads you're interested in pushing other than Boron, who you waffled on a bit. can you tl;dr me on where you're at right now with your reads? You had Makaze as a side suspicion but how interested are you in actually lynching him? I feel like we're entering this weird state where nearly everybody (myself included) has Makaze as at least a secondary suspicion but hasn't been pushing him very hard.

I don't think Makaze is too-wack-to-be-scum, I think his posts are more unproductive for town than for scum. Part of me also just wants to lynch Makaze to not have to deal with him though. I feel good about all of BBM/Marth/Boron right now. Marth and Boron's back-and-forth feels like townies butting heads in a way that evolves naturally rather than like fake content. I guess I would be more likely to go back on the Boron read than the others but I don't really want to lynch her today. BBM I've just found his approach to be solid and agreeable in general. Earlier townread on Refa has been withering unfortunately. SB kinda off on gut but haven't fully looked into it yet.

Post is unfortunately still huge and there are still a few things I want to chew on more (I need to look into SB and Weapons, and I want to re-read Snike's Marth push in the context of Marth's posts); going to start with this for now though.

[Makaze]

7 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

it's the general pattern where he responds to stuff, and then is then is like "this is bad because: [classic mafia scumtell]". like, does he really believe in the scumtell or is he just using it to look reasonable. i mean i guess i ask the question for pretty much everyone, which is why i'm leaning more towards non-standard "town leaks" vibes sorts of reads nowadays

Quote an example (or two) that feel fake to you

[Shinori]

7 hours ago, Rapier said:

Ok, I will admit I didn't pay that much attention to your back and forth with SB.

Again, my critique wasn't on being defensive - everyone is, especially when they think they're being misrepresented or wronged, and some of the reasons people had for voting you were iffy at best (Refa's was the non RVS one that I remember, at least, but I know Prims was also on that).

My critique was on the abundance of content that was either joking or focused around defending/justifying yourself and addressing people who accused you, versus questioning other people and pursuing reads. I'll admit your more recent content has improved and you've been participating on discussions more productively (your talk with SB, your opinions on the state of the game), which improved me read on you (as far as early D1 reads go, at least).

I'm awake and I'm gonna attempt to reply to things by posting a few smaller posts instead of a wall.  I'm in the process of reading so don't expect me to be up to date.

You ignored my content and chose to state I have done/said nothing, which is bad.  But I will move on from that, your critique on my content focused on  'joking' or 'defending myself' and 'addressing people who accused me' versus questioning others and pursuing reads is somewhat valid, HOWEVER, any of my posts that are actually in response to someone to come with questions and I do have stated reads as well as how people react to me and how people are being shown to either ignore me or try to solve me, you being one of the people that ignored me, DOES show information that should be looked at because it can help progress a lot of the game.  The specific post in question that you quoted is like the polar opposite of your critique because I actively do questions SB on his thoughts and break down part of his reads.

7 hours ago, Refa said:

Regarding your content, it reads as reflexive over defensive to me. It doesn't feel like you post unless it's about you, even though you're not being defensive. I am not scumreading you, but I can get where Charlie's case is coming from. If you think Charlie is terrible for attacking Marth, what about all of the other people (AKA the Marth wagon and then some) who are attacking him for his reason?

Reflexive is the word, that is what I have definitely been doing.  Responding to others and then maybe posting some questions in return.  I 100% agree that I've been mostly reflexive.  Onwards to the rest, I frankly don't agree with the marth wagon AT THE MOMENT.  At the time of my reading them, makaze, via, rapier, and snike are voting them and I am probably going to reread marth AGAIN and go over these people involved AFTER I catch up in the thread, but considering my current thoughts on rapier based on my interaction with them I'll probably be placing my vote on them.

I still have like 4 pages to read though so that might change so I'm not doing it yet.

[Shinori]

1 minute ago, Prims said:

why Weapons over SB? I was confused when you wrote a massive kind of snarky rebuttal to SB then SB wasn't your top priority.

I think SB is actually my priority > Weapons when I look at those 2 specifically, but I wanted more content from weapons at the time and I can easily come back to SB after if my read on them hasn't changed by the time weapons posted content.

Back to reading

[Prims]

Reading Weapons' post it seems OK, kind of stream-of-conscious rambly which is what I'd expect his approach to be as either alignment here. To be honest I haven't been scumreading Rapier but I've been wary of townreading him for the exact reasons Weapons says. Like, yeah, his posts are solidly written mafia posts but I haven't seen anything uniquely townie in them yet.
I am uncertain about one thing though; @WeaponsofMassConstruction is your vote on Rapier a prod or are you legitimately interested in lynching him? Tonally it seems like you're asking how interested people are in that angle more than anything else. I can't fully tell how you feel about it yourself.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I would say he's my strongest scumread atm

[Makaze]

  

1 minute ago, Prims said:

man I use a wider monitor than I did when I used to post in mafia years back so when I write my posts in Notepad++ they look smaller to me than they actually are. Gonna start reducing Notepad++'s width to the size of SF's post column while writing

I'm feeling a bit better about Snike after this post which does explain why his priorities are the way they were - there is still a bit of weirdness to me though in that I thought his reply to me made him sound more tonally adamant about me than Marth (in a way where I wondered if it was forced bluster, since Marth was still his vote) and personally I think people have been iffy enough on me and Weapons that suspecting us wasn't really going against the grain of the thread like he says. His posting since his entrance has felt more engaged though so I think I'm OK moving him down the suspect list for now.

##Unvote
##Vote: @Makaze

I want to push this more. Tbh I've continuously found Makaze's posting useless and it bugs me because this is what I'd expect from an unorthodox player who randed maf - posts that give up the appearance of unorthodox play but don't really move us forward at all. I don't see town's desire to find scum and work with other people to lynch them in his posts, his pushes on Bluedoom and BBM have started out vague and he requires pushing before he tries to convince other people on them. He's usually interacting with BBM, who is his main scumread, but not in a way that seems to evolve his read or produce a convincing argument why BBM is scum. Damn it there's more "it's so weird he doesn't find a slot like me scummy" komaeda danganronpa (not refa) style posting too and here it's really inconclusive.

! Okay you are being Proto then. What are they teaching people on mafiauniverse. If you're Weird Town and not scum then I still need you to actually engage with the game more beyond "these are my thoughts I can't make convincing arguments out of" and defending yourself, because you are still posting within the framework of a game where you have a win condition. I can't really tell how you feel about existing wagons and other people's cases, which flips you think would help gamestate for you even if you have no reads, etc. Basically you come off as oddly unengaged with the actual "lynch scum" part of the game for somebody posting as much as you are.
@Makaze when you do the post-by-post-analysis of BBM here you open up by saying his first post is "innocent enough" but it was what got you to first call him scummy. Was your initial read on him a bluff or did you really gutread him over his RVS entrance?

I don't think we are going to get anywhere with this

If you want a look in my head right now, you might be able to tell what I'm thinking about Weapons, based on my questions at him

 

Spoiler

They do not teach me this on MU. I have played even less there than I have here. I am used to making shot in the dark reads from a spectator server and not even being able to interact with the thread directly; that is probably why I am behaving this way without even realizing. I am not used to playing the game.

I did genuinely gut read it, but that main read was based on a post-by-post experience and not an ISO of him. I was trying to be objective when explaining it. Looking at the pure content, there is no rational reason I would react that way to it; the post itself just feels off to me, and it is never going to feel as serious as it did when it was all that I had from him

 

[Shinori]

Boron v Marth back and forth is kind of feeling town v town to me on page 13.  Note to self to reread all of their conversation previously so get a better feeling on this.

Refa also feels nice reading over their posts on page 13, they at least get a few points towards the town side.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

if i had to put it simply, i would say i feel like rapier's posts lack doubt

[Snike]

58 minutes ago, Prims said:

I'm not a background presence the game has literally been going on for less than 24 hours. Rather the people posting too much are insane.

Mood.  I wanted to LE this game but here we are.

50 minutes ago, BT. said:

Gucci. 🙆‍♂️ I started off with a slight townread on Prims that probably doesn't hold up to scrutiny, If I had to explain why it's probably that they seemed earnest about wanting to help w/ the early game? Thought the Shinori vote felt genuine too. Not gonna sit here and ramble on RVS stuff though - I think their case on you makes sense for both alignments, right now I wanna see where they stand w.r.t other things. BBM meanwhile I have a stronger townlead on, feels frank and direct and generally like he's saying what he wants to say. I need to re-read your posts, I frankly haven't spent long enough on your slot, but I think you're agreeable enough. Clarification on Marth - I actually went back and forth here, but I think he's tonally town. I think scum in his slot would be playing differently, and the flat unvote is a strong indicator imo, instead of scrambling to get a different vote going.

Thank you. So it makes sense for Prims to say I'm opportunistic from either alignment? I also want to pose the question about why Marth unvoting instead of voting the supposed 'strongest' read on wagon- me - is townie as opposed to shying away from conflict.

I don't agree with either the Refa read or the Charlie one as of right now, you'll have to do more to convince me, especially when I've laid out an argument in support of the former and the latter reads fine to me right now? I don't know if scum would be interested in the Weapons angle I've been talking about in a few posts.

39 minutes ago, BBM said:

I can still use meta because my memory is a steel trap, i've never forgotten anything ever

@Snike I'm honestly trying to read your post as charitably as I can and (in the spoiler post) it still just seems like you keep harping on Marth about the fact that he made a listpost and that it was too early rather than the content of that. the only time you've engaged with what he said in that listpost is the refa vote. but what about marth's opinions in that post about rapier or weapons or boron? and I think that your refa townread is well reasoned, but what's the scum intent that marth is showing by voting refa there? like you said it's not "genuine" but what would the genuine thing to do have been? vote me? I read that post from marth mostly as "here's everyone that's posted in the thread so far, here are the two people who I think don't have any green flags, and I'm going to vote the one who's currently active". 

you also didn't actually engage with marth's vote on boron until this latest post, other than to say the vote switch didn't make sense because refa's play hadn't changed very much from his initial vote. so what did you actually think the townie thing to do would have been, continue a bad refa push? as for what you said about the boron vote in this latest post, I also just don't see your point about how it's just questions without a conclusion. he's voting boron! he said he thought boron's stuff was hypocritical!

in terms of priority, I think I want to see you engage with things that are not related to marth or defending yourself from me and prims. this latest post had a bit about cam and some questions to BT that felt a bit better- tbh at this point feel like only non-marth stuff can make me feel better about you because everything with marth just feels so forced, and even if you post more stuff about it i'll basically only feel like you're tunnelling

I think prims has one good post so obviously I'd want it to be more, but at this stage I'm not interested in pushing someone with one good content post over someone with no good content posts

I don't agree with most of the content in that listpost either? Weapons town is something you agree with me on as being wrong and that's the first thing out of the gate. Boron is a null-town lead which admittedly flips into a scumread. More on that into a bit.  Prims at  50/50 and Makaze at 50/50 are too noncommital,  Shinori's a idfk (townier now but mood at the time) and that leaves voting either you (hm) or Refa, where I've made my case regarding Refa already. I think it would've been ok not to vote, and again I want to reiterate this was preceded by having difficulty coming up with reads. Which, yes, everyone has issues with that. It reads as a wolf entrance with an obligatory vote. When pressure gets applied  + the supposed scumread flips over, it's abandon ship over to Boron, who I've already differentiated from Marth's posting.  One of the things pinging me in that post is the " I think the points on Makaze/Shinori/BBM/Snike are fakeable ya. " line where the two of us weren't really chatting at that point. By framing it as 'fakable' it's ascribing sinister intent rather than NAI, which is all the original line is.  I think the townie thing to do would've been to either keep pushing the flawed read (as a stubborn townie) or pressure vote nontalkers as it was still RVS. If we're spicy, follow the Weapons townread into a Prims angle.

Re:Boron vote: marth called it hypocritical after the fact, wasn't clear about that here. On top of that, that's exactly why I'm calling it out: you have to be very careful when you throw the h-word around, and I don't think Marth has cleared that threshold, simply put, so my current lens does not view that positively, especially paired with what I would say is question-loading/ mischaracterization of my posting from that slot. I want to clarify btw that when I said i felt worse after reading the vote shift, it was wholly towards the slot. The 'double down' is on my read, not on the lp.

One more thing before we pivot: In your opinion, am I being an opportunist in this read, or am I tunneling? Opportunistically tunneling? The people need to know, and I don't really like the shift in perception, especially after the tunnel is first brought up by j00. It could be that you're loaning the idea because it fits IYO, but would like a more clear stance there.

Now, let's set that aside and talk about someone new: Elieson. I noticed the slot in Makaze's  PoE and BT being willing to wagon; thought that was a little odd. Elie has 2 posts, and one of them is talking about screen contrast. Is that really enough for a wagon? (outside of Makaze) I know you said you want to see more, and I agree, but what are you thinking of the 1 post? The vibe check from it is you're scum. 

On my end, I think it's interesting that neither Weapons nor Cam are mentioned; they're both present in the pages Elie read, but not a word about their presence or lack thereof. I know Cam was a bit of a topic earlier for the drunkposting.

Speaking of Cam, would like an update on how things are going when they get the chance; The lack of a vote makes me wonder where their head's at because scumreads are me and Sunwoo, but I'm missing a strong case there.

I saw Weapons and Prims both post, going to get this out before I really sit and stare at those two's  posts.  Also,  Sunwoo, am I the Amers or the Germs?