(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins!

[Makaze]

3 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

if i had to put it simply, i would say i feel like rapier's posts lack doubt

 please provide at least one example or what post made you start feeling this read

[Prims]

9 minutes ago, Makaze said:

  

I don't think we are going to get anywhere with this

If you want a look in my head right now, you might be able to tell what I'm thinking about Weapons, based on my questions at him

 

  Reveal hidden contents

They do not teach me this on MU. I have played even less there than I have here. I am used to making shot in the dark reads from a spectator server and not even being able to interact with the thread directly; that is probably why I am behaving this way without even realizing. I am not used to playing the game.

I did genuinely gut read it, but that main read was based on a post-by-post experience and not an ISO of him. I was trying to be objective when explaining it. Looking at the pure content, there is no rational reason I would react that way to it; the post itself just feels off to me, and it is never going to feel as serious as it did when it was all that I had from him

 

I guess that makes sense. I still think you are unengaged though. Putting it in terms of playing the game like a spectator does make it easier for me to see where you're coming from at least but in general my read is that you're not invested in who gets lynched; I guess you prefer Marth right now on PoE? You don't really defend your townreads (when Boron has been one of the main wagons today) or the wagons you "want to avoid eliminating" - what places Refa and Snike in that bucket for you?

[Shinori]

5 hours ago, CT075 said:

• Chainsaw defense? I can understand if you independely think that charlie and Prims are scum, but do you believe that charlie’s intent here is entirely to take heat off Prims? If anything, I think immediately jumjping to “wait, actually, they’re aligned together, this has to be chainsaw!” kind of, like, presupposes that charlie is also scum and it’s really not clear to me what charlie has done to warrant this? Do you know something about these two players’ alignment that I don’t?
• For what it’s worth, I actually think that the rest of the post is town-coded. The breakdown of why they think charlie’s actual post is weak goes into a reasonable amount of detail (especially on the I’m-not-defensive part) and I feel that it would have been easy to just blow it off instead of posting a screen’s worth of text and drawing even more attention to themselves.

Chainsaw defense was probably bad wording, it kind of felt to an extent that SB was voting me heavily because I was voting/pushing prims around that time.  I do not currently think they are both scum at the moment but the possibility is there in my head and i think this maybe matters moving forward if we get other flips that end up making this interaction between myself sb and prims look more important.  These are the flaws of having posted when I was very tired probably.

 

5 hours ago, CT075 said:

Shinori was kind of dancing a jig in the middle of everyone in a way that I think would be counterproductive as scum

I will state, I like to sit in the middle sometimes as scum.  This is a thing.  I specifically started my day 1 in champs WANTING to be a null read.

Makaze v bbm is really weird to me and something is pinging me here.  I need to actively reread their entire back and forth from early game I think. PAGE 14 DONE.

[Snike]

6 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

if i had to put it simply, i would say i feel like rapier's posts lack doubt

So you're saying doubt ie they have a clear idea of the gamestate? Because I could read that and interpret it as 'brash townie' and conversely, being self-aware would be scummier.

Still reading; Prims wallpost is up next.

[Rapier]

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

>Tells people that any case I post is going to get called out for being made up because the reasons are not why the read started
>I try to explain my reads with reasoning using stuff that happened after I had them as scum
>It happens exactly as I expect

The only way you guys are going to see that I'm right is if I force something more damning than "because Makaze said so" to come out in the thread. My options as someone who is 100% confident with something that no one else can relate to are to believe it quietly, or believe it loudly.

All of my cases in this game are going to be fabricated until we have some real evidence, such as mechanics or associatives, and I do not expect to live to endgame unless I am usefully wrong the whole game.

You will not be able to read me based on my case quality; you will have to read me based off of my accuracy

tbh what I don't enjoy is that you seem to be going in a counter-logical way about it: Conclusion first (X is scum), premises latter (why they're scum and what I can find that sustains my gut feel). Also, your case quality is directly proportional to your accuracy, and if you just go by "my gut feeling will prove whether I'm right or wrong", chances are staked against you and this can backfire horribly even if you're town (and it's irresponsible to go off that read as town. That just benefits the mafia).

32 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

i guess to address votes on me first: @BBM I think the main point is that I unvoted Prims rather lightly? That is true, but my initial vote was not very strong and more than anything just try to move things out of RVS. While I do think there is something to the original point, I also think Prims would be aware enough of that aspect of his meta and so the point would not be very AI. Which is the sense also that I got from Prims as he initially replied, so I felt there was nothing more there to pursue. As wrt to where I stand on him now, as far as I've caught up, the most interesting thing was that one post where he voted Snike. He actually had a lot of really good thoughts wrt to Makaze, but then I also struggled to understand his Snike case, which I guess weirded me out for hard to explain reasons, but something along of the lines of where I feel like I should equate unreadable with scummy. Speaking of which, I'm quite suspicious of Rapier atm precisely because of this reason, but it's weird cause like people are gonna expect you to make a case and explain your vote and whatnot, but really what I have here is that my brain just refuses to process what he's saying. So how am I supposed to work with that. I'd agree tentatively with what I think SB (?) or whoever said with this newer wave of suspicion on him, but also I wouldn't say I'm particularly good with those lines of reasoning or anything. I think j00 is mostly prodding? Then I'm very speculatively saying that I think Shinori is just paranoid about being pocketed, but it's too late it's already working that was definitely not my intent, and actually something not consciously in my scum game, at least last I checked. I also think maybe you should pocket people as town lol.

I think Boron is good now, haven't really paid in depth attention to her posts, but definitely in the "revist if need to" category. I don't see the case for Marth at all really, and if anything I've seen a lot more original thoughts that I agree with and feel are probably town sourced. I guess I asked about meta here because I do think town Marth had/has a very wagonable meta, but also uhhh...something. Ok I'm going to reread now

##Vote: @Rapier

who here agrees with Rapier's logic on stuff? I feel like we are town reading him because he's active, but that really reminds me of the previous game with Paperblade and whatnot. i'm struggling to determine whether he is using his reasoning honestly (as opposed to manipulatively)

I love that you're voting me because you don't understand what I'm saying lmao

What seems iffy to me is that you say you agree with "whoever came with this new wave of suspicion on me" but also not, and you don't even remember who started with it, and this resounds with other players' complaints about you making easy cases and then dropping out. Still, I think you'd go for another wagon for convenience's sake, although Marth's wagon is seen in an unfavorable light and that leaves either me and iirc Refa (I don't remember who's the second highest in votes), so I'm not sure if this is another case of "scum picks an easy wagon for vague motives and calls it a day". It wasn't the first time you did that though (as per your very first vote during RVS), and that bothers me.

I relate with feeling super tired though. It's definitely taking more mental energy than I thought I had and I feel like a blind man on a crosswalk during rush hour.

19 minutes ago, Shinori said:

I'm awake and I'm gonna attempt to reply to things by posting a few smaller posts instead of a wall.  I'm in the process of reading so don't expect me to be up to date.

You ignored my content and chose to state I have done/said nothing, which is bad.  But I will move on from that, your critique on my content focused on  'joking' or 'defending myself' and 'addressing people who accused me' versus questioning others and pursuing reads is somewhat valid, HOWEVER, any of my posts that are actually in response to someone to come with questions and I do have stated reads as well as how people react to me and how people are being shown to either ignore me or try to solve me, you being one of the people that ignored me, DOES show information that should be looked at because it can help progress a lot of the game.  The specific post in question that you quoted is like the polar opposite of your critique because I actively do questions SB on his thoughts and break down part of his reads.

Yeah, I hadn't read your back and forth with SB then, as it was a page before I accused you of spending 90% of the time either joking past RVS phase or justifying/defending/"reflecting" (if that's your prefered term), as you admit. I retracted that point when you started to contribute more, from your discussion with SB onwards. It was my fault skipping over that new content.

14 minutes ago, Shinori said:

Boron v Marth back and forth is kind of feeling town v town to me on page 13.  Note to self to reread all of their conversation previously so get a better feeling on this.

Refa also feels nice reading over their posts on page 13, they at least get a few points towards the town side.

Boron vs Marth seem genuine and gives me vibes on them having the same alignment, which seems more likely to be town infighting (I don't see this circus being that productive as scum vs scum roleplaying). I really need to sit down, reread Marth (or at the very least, him and the biggest wagons) and collect my thoughts.

[Rapier]

41 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

So, here's a fun fact! I was making a post on how I feel about each player expressed via Sabaton song, but posting all those links there not only crashed SF, but my entire computer.

SF is too lame for amazing heavy metal, confirmed. Trash site.

Me

BBM
Marth
BT
SB
Cam
Elie
j00
Makaze
Percivale
Prims
Rapier
Refa
Shinori (the Swedish version is better though)
Snike
Weapons

And on that note, I'm gonna do something else for a while. Be back later, I guess.

Please don't make me listen to all that in order to understand your reads (Sabaton is cool tho).

I can say I feel confused about BBM and Snike's interactions so far. Two people I need to reread but it has been hard to and it's late at night, so.

[Makaze]

  

1 minute ago, Rapier said:

tbh what I don't enjoy is that you seem to be going in a counter-logical way about it: Conclusion first (X is scum), premises latter (why they're scum and what I can find that sustains my gut feel). Also, your case quality is directly proportional to your accuracy, and if you just go by "my gut feeling will prove whether I'm right or wrong", chances are staked against you and this can backfire horribly even if you're town (and it's irresponsible to go off that read as town. That just benefits the mafia).

I love that you're voting me because you don't understand what I'm saying lmao

What seems iffy to me is that you say you agree with "whoever came with this new wave of suspicion on me" but also not, and you don't even remember who started with it, and this resounds with other players' complaints about you making easy cases and then dropping out. Still, I think you'd go for another wagon for convenience's sake, although Marth's wagon is seen in an unfavorable light and that leaves either me and iirc Refa (I don't remember who's the second highest in votes), so I'm not sure if this is another case of "scum picks an easy wagon for vague motives and calls it a day". It wasn't the first time you did that though (as per your very first vote during RVS), and that bothers me.

I relate with feeling super tired though. It's definitely taking more mental energy than I thought I had and I feel like a blind man on a crosswalk during rush hour.

Yeah, I hadn't read your back and forth with SB then, as it was a page before I accused you of spending 90% of the time either joking past RVS phase or justifying/defending/"reflecting" (if that's your prefered term), as you admit. I retracted that point when you started to contribute more, from your discussion with SB onwards. It was my fault skipping over that new content.

Boron vs Marth seem genuine and gives me vibes on them having the same alignment, which seems more likely to be town infighting (I don't see this circus being that productive as scum vs scum roleplaying). I really need to sit down, reread Marth (or at the very least, him and the biggest wagons) and collect my thoughts.

I feel extremely strongly that Rapier is town

I am taking your criticism but I'm not sure how to fix it because this is how I am until I have something better than my gut instincts. I do not know of another way to play. I don't have reasons until I have evidence, and everything that someone could call a universal scum or town tell depends on the person which is all about vibes anyway.

  

 

1 minute ago, Shinori said:

Boron v Marth back and forth is kind of feeling town v town to me on page 13.  Note to self to reread all of their conversation previously so get a better feeling on this.

Refa also feels nice reading over their posts on page 13, they at least get a few points towards the town side.

When people wonder what my alignment read stuff is, this is it

This post makes it extremely unlikely for Shinori, Boron and Marth to be on the same scum team, but increases the chances one of Boron or Marth is if Shinori is scum
To a much less extreme extent, Refa/Shinori feels like a possibility, at least from Shinori

 

4 minutes ago, Prims said:

I guess that makes sense. I still think you are unengaged though. Putting it in terms of playing the game like a spectator does make it easier for me to see where you're coming from at least but in general my read is that you're not invested in who gets lynched; I guess you prefer Marth right now on PoE? You don't really defend your townreads (when Boron has been one of the main wagons today) or the wagons you "want to avoid eliminating" - what places Refa and Snike in that bucket for you?

I have people I would shield from the elim, but I am not going to fight over specifics within the PoE when no one is taking my gut reads seriously

I am comfortable eliminating in
BBM
Bluedoom
Elieson
Prims

People I am considering am already adding to this list:
Refa
Weapons

I feel like we have this same argument in every game, so I'm not confident in how I'm reading you, but I think you would be useful in the late game, and the feeling I'm getting that is just like our last game together is making me think you're town

I am coming around on Weapons because almost all of their stuff feels as flimsy as it did originally, and I'm getting "throwing shade" and it feels opportunistic. All of their reads are based on generic scum patterns and "could bes" instead of "have to bes". The claims he is making about Rapier seem like projections

I do not have as strong an opinion about Snike and percivale as my other town leans, but I don't think we should eliminate them today anyway

[BBM]

@Prims I agree that Makaze's Saturday activity was unorthodox in an unhelpful way but I think his Sunday activity has been markedly different outside of some whack stuff he's said like the bit below. He has clearly been trying to engage and give reasons for things more instead of treating the thread like his own quicktopic. what do you think about the post-by-post analysis of me beyond just the first line?

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

All of my cases in this game are going to be fabricated until we have some real evidence, such as mechanics or associatives, and I do not expect to live to endgame unless I am usefully wrong the whole game.

@Makaze this is really confusing. did you not believe what you said about me in your post-by-post analysis (at least at the time)? also, I quoted my post about weapons, literally with what weapons asked that I didn't like (they were both one-liners too so nothing out of context). i don't like having to do the official SF quote thing more than I need to, it's confusing and eats my posts and makes the thread visually more grating for me.

@Snike  I found the initial vote opportunistic and looking like you were looking for something easy over pushing something hard (Prims). then yeah it became a tunnel because not only were you posting little about anyone else, you were really focusing on specific things he did rather than look at his play holistically.

I know I said I probably wouldn't be swayed by Snike posting more Marth stuff but I do like that he was looking for more scum intent in the latest post. I need to think a bit more about snike weapons and rapier and how I would order them in my mind. weapons and rapier are unlikely to be buddies (with both of them facing increasing pressure, a bus at this stage increases odds a lot of a d1 scum lynch). i still feel very conflicted about rapier, which also makes me unsure how to feel about weapons's vote there. rapier was right that it was dumb of me to accuse him of parking his vote on marth when it had been just a few hours. there's so much content right now it feels like a lot more time is passing than it actually is. that being said i kind of see what weapons means about the posts sounding ok but then the logic not really ever being right. ugh

[Shinori]

52 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Shinori (the Swedish version is better though)

I vibe with this song.  There are multiple lines in this song that I can see as reference.

I think I'm mostly caught up with a few people specifically I need to reread regarding a few situations.

1 hour ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

who here agrees with Rapier's logic on stuff? I feel like we are town reading him because he's active, but that really reminds me of the previous game with Paperblade and whatnot. i'm struggling to determine whether he is using his reasoning honestly (as opposed to manipulatively)

I think boron slightly agreed with rapier, or at least was town reading them for other reasons than activity.  The rest of weapons post was mostly okay but this vote swap from boron > Rapier feels weird to me.  I also kind of agree with prims in that this vote seems weak in the terms of "I'm voting this person because I think they are scummy" Also like the whole "We are town reading him because ___" is weird because I'm not town reading him but when I was feeling okay with them it was definitely for more reason than just activity.  This vote hop and read shift from boron, who was a previous top wagon, as they lose traction, to Rapier, as they are gaining traction feels sus to me.

[Makaze]

Just now, BBM said:

@Prims I agree that Makaze's Saturday activity was unorthodox in an unhelpful way but I think his Sunday activity has been markedly different outside of some whack stuff he's said like the bit below. He has clearly been trying to engage and give reasons for things more instead of treating the thread like his own quicktopic. what do you think about the post-by-post analysis of me beyond just the first line?

@Makaze this is really confusing. did you not believe what you said about me in your post-by-post analysis (at least at the time)? also, I quoted my post about weapons, literally with what weapons asked that I didn't like (they were both one-liners too so nothing out of context). i don't like having to do the official SF quote thing more than I need to, it's confusing and eats my posts and makes the thread visually more grating for me.

@Snike  I found the initial vote opportunistic and looking like you were looking for something easy over pushing something hard (Prims). then yeah it became a tunnel because not only were you posting little about anyone else, you were really focusing on specific things he did rather than look at his play holistically.

I know I said I probably wouldn't be swayed by Snike posting more Marth stuff but I do like that he was looking for more scum intent in the latest post. I need to think a bit more about snike weapons and rapier and how I would order them in my mind. weapons and rapier are unlikely to be buddies (with both of them facing increasing pressure, a bus at this stage increases odds a lot of a d1 scum lynch). i still feel very conflicted about rapier, which also makes me unsure how to feel about weapons's vote there. rapier was right that it was dumb of me to accuse him of parking his vote on marth when it had been just a few hours. there's so much content right now it feels like a lot more time is passing than it actually is. that being said i kind of see what weapons means about the posts sounding ok but then the logic not really ever being right. ugh

I am not as confident in my ability to justify my feelings as I am about my feelings, and I am not going to be mad at anyone for feeling like I made them up after the fact, because that is the case, and is always going to be until I have some real evidence. There are no universal tells. If I am going to catch someone, it is going to be for the wrong reasons, and I am not going to expect anyone to be able to put up a fight if I am right off of nothing

I cant' tell what you think of Weapons at this point, since you seem to be sheeping them and shading them at different points. How would you feel about a Weapons elimination

Who would you say is *not* in your PoE?

[BBM]

i like how the editor keeps saving a post I already made 8 hours ago but losing the ones I'm actually working on

@WeaponsofMassConstruction you said you had trouble following prims's snike case. why? what made it weird and what's your opinion on snike? quick ctrl+f can't find anything else from you but this about him. also i'm trying to read your last post but it's so stream of consciousness that i can't tell where one thought ends and the next one starts between rapier and j00. are you saying that you don't like that j00 is just prodding, or are you responding in some way to her vote against you?

@Makaze i mean tells don't have to be universally correct all the time but that doesnt mean there isn't a specific tell in that moment.

weapons's last post didn't make him less suspicious to me but he did make a good point about rapier. so i'm trying to figure out how i feel about that dichotomy via his non-rapier thoughts. also weapons and rapier are prooobably #2 and #3 for me right now but like I said they don't really fit together as scum so I don't feel comfortable with that state of affairs. will re-read rapier after eating

are you asking me who I think is town or who I think is scum?

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, BBM said:

i like how the editor keeps saving a post I already made 8 hours ago but losing the ones I'm actually working on

@WeaponsofMassConstruction you said you had trouble following prims's snike case. why? what made it weird and what's your opinion on snike? quick ctrl+f can't find anything else from you but this about him. also i'm trying to read your last post but it's so stream of consciousness that i can't tell where one thought ends and the next one starts between rapier and j00. are you saying that you don't like that j00 is just prodding, or are you responding in some way to her vote against you?

@Makaze i mean tells don't have to be universally correct all the time but that doesnt mean there isn't a specific tell in that moment.

weapons's last post didn't make him less suspicious to me but he did make a good point about rapier. so i'm trying to figure out how i feel about that dichotomy via his non-rapier thoughts. also weapons and rapier are prooobably #2 and #3 for me right now but like I said they don't really fit together as scum so I don't feel comfortable with that state of affairs. will re-read rapier after eating

are you asking me who I think is town or who I think is scum?

I am asking who you would shield from an elimination

[Snike]

24 minutes ago, Prims said:

man I use a wider monitor than I did when I used to post in mafia years back so when I write my posts in Notepad++ they look smaller to me than they actually are. Gonna start reducing Notepad++'s width to the size of SF's post column while writing

I'm feeling a bit better about Snike after this post which does explain why his priorities are the way they were - there is still a bit of weirdness to me though in that I thought his reply to me made him sound more tonally adamant about me than Marth (in a way where I wondered if it was forced bluster, since Marth was still his vote) and personally I think people have been iffy enough on me and Weapons that suspecting us wasn't really going against the grain of the thread like he says. His posting since his entrance has felt more engaged though so I think I'm OK moving him down the suspect list for now.

##Unvote
##Vote: @Makaze

I want to push this more. Tbh I've continuously found Makaze's posting useless and it bugs me because this is what I'd expect from an unorthodox player who randed maf - posts that give up the appearance of unorthodox play but don't really move us forward at all. I don't see town's desire to find scum and work with other people to lynch them in his posts, his pushes on Bluedoom and BBM have started out vague and he requires pushing before he tries to convince other people on them. He's usually interacting with BBM, who is his main scumread, but not in a way that seems to evolve his read or produce a convincing argument why BBM is scum. Damn it there's more "it's so weird he doesn't find a slot like me scummy" komaeda danganronpa (not refa) style posting too and here it's really inconclusive.

! Okay you are being Proto then. What are they teaching people on mafiauniverse. If you're Weird Town and not scum then I still need you to actually engage with the game more beyond "these are my thoughts I can't make convincing arguments out of" and defending yourself, because you are still posting within the framework of a game where you have a win condition. I can't really tell how you feel about existing wagons and other people's cases, which flips you think would help gamestate for you even if you have no reads, etc. Basically you come off as oddly unengaged with the actual "lynch scum" part of the game for somebody posting as much as you are.
@Makaze when you do the post-by-post-analysis of BBM here you open up by saying his first post is "innocent enough" but it was what got you to first call him scummy. Was your initial read on him a bluff or did you really gutread him over his RVS entrance?

Weapons' slot has been looking worse to me now for similar reasons to BBM's post here. Feels like Weapons is throwing stuff out there but not meaningfully and not developing on it. In general he looks like somebody who is struggling to get a feel for the game but I don't see any effective attempts to get a feel for it either, so I'm starting to lean scum there. He cut me with a content post so I need to read that.

Echoing that Elie's entrance isn't great, confused by him citing a gut read on BBM but not really trying to make heads or tails with how his main scum read is doing the same thing. @Elieson I'd like to hear how you feel about BBM's more recent posts. In general the early BBM gut reads in this game have always looked unnatural to me because BBM's earliest posts were still very RVS.

@CT075 you've ducked out without voting twice now, is there a specific reason you seem uncomfortable committing to a vote yet even though both times you've had a general idea of who you suspect the most?
@Shinori why Weapons over SB? I was confused when you wrote a massive kind of snarky rebuttal to SB then SB wasn't your top priority.
@Refa you feel scattershot right now and I can't tell if you have scumreads you're interested in pushing other than Boron, who you waffled on a bit. can you tl;dr me on where you're at right now with your reads? You had Makaze as a side suspicion but how interested are you in actually lynching him? I feel like we're entering this weird state where nearly everybody (myself included) has Makaze as at least a secondary suspicion but hasn't been pushing him very hard.

I don't think Makaze is too-wack-to-be-scum, I think his posts are more unproductive for town than for scum. Part of me also just wants to lynch Makaze to not have to deal with him though. I feel good about all of BBM/Marth/Boron right now. Marth and Boron's back-and-forth feels like townies butting heads in a way that evolves naturally rather than like fake content. I guess I would be more likely to go back on the Boron read than the others but I don't really want to lynch her today. BBM I've just found his approach to be solid and agreeable in general. Earlier townread on Refa has been withering unfortunately. SB kinda off on gut but haven't fully looked into it yet.

Post is unfortunately still huge and there are still a few things I want to chew on more (I need to look into SB and Weapons, and I want to re-read Snike's Marth push in the context of Marth's posts); going to start with this for now though.

I think it was at the time and people's opinions have shifted as the phase has worn on. WRT the direct response, what can I say? You picked a fight, I responded in kind. I do want to have a followup chat about that, but we can put a pin on it for right now.  Regarding Marth prio, to put it another way, I can see more reasons for your situation than I can for Marth's. And right now, believe me, I'm feeling a bit cross with the cerulean fate.

Do you think Cam's in a better spot than Elieson right now? I'd flip them because while Elieson's been around once Cam's been here a few times, and hasn't plunked a vote down.

What do you think about j00? There's a couple of remarks I resent but that's maybe frustration I'm reading into + some paranoia because I feel like  j00/BBM have been taking cues from each other and I'm not sure what to make of it.

I think this post is better fwiw, staked out some stronger positions and while I don't agree with the Makaze read I can see the argument. 

Weapons I'm still getting a handle on. The longer post and comments on rapier/Prims read as though the hard-to-explain reasons are 'vibes'/gut. Not trying to diss it, I'm more trying to make sense of it.

@BBM Acknowledged, I want to say in my defence there I was/am pushing my main scumread.

I don't know about the logic breaks off the top of my head, but my gut is in a rut near a hut that juts over a butte in the "Rapier is Towned" ground. What?

I'm going to have to read Makaze and reread Rapier, aren't I...

 

[Sunwoo]

Snike: Americans, of course XD

Makaze explaining that they're used to viewing games as a spectator does put some stuff in context, but ... I mean, like half the game had expressed frustration with his play/inability to understand his reasonings for reads and he either doubled down on them without explanation, or states in a rather passive manner that we just don't understand. And while a part of me thinks it's pretty audacious for scum, he's ... not getting nearly as much flak for it as I would think? I mean, yeah, he's getting some but only three people are voting him for it (and one of them has disappeared from the thread after making two posts).

I'm also just ... really frustrated by the alignment read stuff, the whole "X and Y are not likely to be on the same team" stuff. There's not a lot of reasoning as to why in these posts, and relies way too much on associative reads before we ever have a confirmed alignment reveal. The BBM stuff I've already stated so I don't see a point to saying it again. Overall I just feel like even though there are some improvements in his play, he just feels very passive about either pushing his scum reads or asserting his town reads. Even taking into account play style and trying more, I still don't get a town read from this.

To answer Weapons, I'm currently not getting scum intent from Rapier and his logic, but I will admit that I don't actually know how to read him. Currently not too interested in pursuing Rapier, but I will give him another read soon(ish).

Honestly, I'm kind of in a spot where I feel like my reads are stagnating and I'm not really getting anything new. I think it's because I feel like it's the same group of people clashing against one another so all my reads continue to be on those same people. I know there are other players in the game who haven't been able to post all that much, but because they're not currently present and their reads/interactions may be outdated now, it just seems to me like I'm missing too much to have reads I'm consider remotely complete. If you guys want me to elaborate on anything specific feel free to ask, but I'm gonna go inactive for a bit.

[Shinori]

@SunwooHow does weapons vote swap and complete 180 of their views towards rapier affect your read on them?

[Makaze]

  

I'm going to dip out before I ruin the game for everyone

Spoiler

Back before you know it

For self-improvements' sake, what is the right way to leave a legacy for things that realistically won't matter until later?

 

[BBM]

via boron and j00 are my only active townreads.

there are a bunch of other strong players who are too good / i'm too bad at reading them as scum for me to townread them without actual associative reads or role info (sb, prims, bt, shinori) but none of these players are likely to be eliminated today

i don't think marth has done anything actively townie but I do think he's at a point where like, i've disagreed with so many of the votes characterizing his play that if he's scum, half my threadview would be wrong. so from that perspective I would/have defended him.

i wouldn't support a lynch on you but tbqh i would never seriously defend you either because you're too polarizing and suck up too much of the airspace and time so I would consolidate if I had to.

[Snike]

7 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Snike: Americans, of course XD

Phew, was going to say...

Honestly I think I'm going to go play TTYD myself for a while and let things percolate. I do want to make a statement and provide a question first:

Statement: I disagree with Percy. Any person who must say they are townie is no true townie. Townieness can and should be strived for through actions and conduct.

Question: What do people think about the 1-2 of Rapier's RVS triple?

[Bluedoom]

4 hours ago, Snike said:

@Bluedoom Funny because I could say the same about my wagon, or well at least Prims could be read as either OMGUS for going after them or chainsawing the vote on you. But that's a bit dramatic and talking chainsaws before anyone has flipped is hasty. Why do you think I intentionally ignored the vote change over just having made the reads on impressions? That is again not very charitable framing, especially as it was the early morning hours when I posted.

Similarly, please explain to the class how your questions to Sunwoo/Boron when you flipped votes are meaningfully different from Refa's inquiries, which were, as you said,  "too many questions without a conclusion."

Vote stays put. Not sure I like Cam phrasing things that the Prims read on me makes sense when voiced. "Opportunistic" is another cynical framing and I already went into why my entrance isn't safe imo. How I'd frame it at the time would be "The first two players could conceivably have changed in style and tone" versus "I think there's a problem here." I've since strengthened my reads but I still think Marth is the most sus right now.

 

 1 hour ago, Snike said:

 

I don't agree with most of the content in that listpost either? Weapons town is something you agree with me on as being wrong and that's the first thing out of the gate. Boron is a null-town lead which admittedly flips into a scumread. More on that into a bit.  Prims at  50/50 and Makaze at 50/50 are too noncommital,  Shinori's a idfk (townier now but mood at the time) and that leaves voting either you (hm) or Refa, where I've made my case regarding Refa already. I think it would've been ok not to vote, and again I want to reiterate this was preceded by having difficulty coming up with reads. Which, yes, everyone has issues with that. It reads as a wolf entrance with an obligatory vote. When pressure gets applied  + the supposed scumread flips over, it's abandon ship over to Boron, who I've already differentiated from Marth's posting.  One of the things pinging me in that post is the " I think the points on Makaze/Shinori/BBM/Snike are fakeable ya. " line where the two of us weren't really chatting at that point. By framing it as 'fakable' it's ascribing sinister intent rather than NAI, which is all the original line is.  I think the townie thing to do would've been to either keep pushing the flawed read (as a stubborn townie) or pressure vote nontalkers as it was still RVS. If we're spicy, follow the Weapons townread into a Prims angle.

 

Re:Boron vote: marth called it hypocritical after the fact, wasn't clear about that here. On top of that, that's exactly why I'm calling it out: you have to be very careful when you throw the h-word around, and I don't think Marth has cleared that threshold, simply put, so my current lens does not view that positively, especially paired with what I would say is question-loading/ mischaracterization of my posting from that slot. I want to clarify btw that when I said i felt worse after reading the vote shift, it was wholly towards the slot. The 'double down' is on my read, not on the lp.

 

22 hours ago, Bluedoom said:

so first, Unvote ##Vote: @Sunwoo


What about prims is town leaning for you, and do you disagree with my take on his read on Makaze? if so, why?
As of this post I was still voting Refa. Let me outline the problems I have with this:
a)I was voting refa for very similar reasons to  what you're outlining in this post. What about that is safe, or are you going to say that your own reads are safe?
b)Not hard to point out but, whatever shinori has done has been NAI ya. I think the points on Makaze/Shinori/BBM/Snike are fakeable ya.  What specific things has Makaze done that make you think that he wouldn't benefit from them as scum?

c)The last paragraph in your post makes me think that you have enough of a gut feeling to actually vote any of the 3 mentioned. Now from what I remember of you I think you like feeling more concrete about your reads before your vote. But my issue isn't so much that the vote isn't dropped and more that...this feels like fence sitting here? 

 

So first of all, I don't even understand the defensiveness that comes from perceiving yourself to be getting "uncharitable interpretations" of your actions. Finding a list post on page 5 scummy because it was posted too early and painting it as scum trying to fake content when the straightforward explanation is town posting their thoughts  in thread because they felt to do so is a very uncharitable interpretation of actions. Part of being suspicious of someone is looking at their actions in a bad light for w/e reason, handwaving people's suspicions on you as uncharitable interpretations does you no favours.

Next, I'm addressing the bolded specifically:
I think if you read the bolded in my post I clearly have conclusions, this isn't even comparable to what I was accusing Refa of. When I made  the vote on Refa, I was saying that he had made a series of posts where he questioned people but didn't feel like he was coming up to a more firm read(be it town or scum), and asking questions without coming to a firm stance can be faked very easily as content. In my post that I've quoted I've already come to a stance where Boron is scum and then am pressuring her on it with questions, this is very different.  I'd like to mention that in point a) even though I don't outright use the word hypocritical its implied that I feel that way, and I do expand upon that when questioned by rapier. And I clearly think that the fence sitting is scummy there otherwise I don't vote her there, this idea that my vote on her isn't that different from what I'm accusing refa of doing is whack.

 

Bolded Italics: Well for starters if you have a scum read on someone then what was something that would be NAI starts getting coloured by your perception so it would be consistent with me scumreading her because...if I scumread her of course I'm going to read something that's NAI as sinister? But here's the kicker: I actually *back off* from this position on the second post in page 9 because I realise that that isn't a useful thing to talk about since most people would have a lot of  NAI reads early in the game; this runs in direct contradiction to you claiming that I'm trying to paint a sinister picture of her because I don't just randomly back off from my own point as mafia in this scenario!
 

[Bluedoom]

22 hours ago, Bluedoom said:

fwiw I don't feel strongly about people having null reads, which is bound to happen at this stage of the game. This is mostly in response to your earlier issues with me having null reads in my first couple of posts, me having issues in your post a couple of pages ago with a few nulls reads, or in the future taking issues with anyone else who has a bunch of null reads. I'm mostly thinking about this now and think it'd just result in people talking at each other about posting more content.

This is the one I'm referring to

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

alright im caught up and ready to

[Sunwoo]

6 minutes ago, Snike said:

Question: What do people think about the 1-2 of Rapier's RVS triple?

Honestly, I read it as Rapier being overly excited and not as anything alignment indicative. This is also the same person who once truthfully claimed doctor in RVS and confused everyone on whether it was a joke or not, so ... I mean. It doesn't really feel like anything to me.

24 minutes ago, Shinori said:

@SunwooHow does weapons vote swap and complete 180 of their views towards rapier affect your read on them?

By "them" do you mean Weapons or Rapier or both?

If you mean Weapons, I think the 180 on Rapier in a vacuum isn't necessarily damning because a lot had happened since his "town lean on Rapier" post.  But his actual read on Rapier feels ... questionable. If I understand correctly he voted Rapier because he's unreadable scummy but also thinks he might be using his reasoning manipulatively and because he "lacks doubt"? Can't say I quite get it.

I also wish I had a better handle on how he felt about everyone else? It feels like Rapier went to being their biggest scum read, but I am not sure where they stand on anyone else. I'm not great at reading Weapons, but if I had to make a flash decision I guess I'd say it leans more scummy than townie.

[Bluedoom]

I guess the other point I have is that I don't really have to care about flips in characterizing something as chainsaw defence because it can be seen as defending a buddy or buddying up to a townie for towncred, it doesn't change the fact that me being voted was a reaction to me voting Refa, not me voting Boron, my boron vote only came up after the fact. This is at least true for your initial vote on me and Rapier's, its literally there in your posts. I don't have anything to say about percy's or makaze's votes since they amount to gut reads but this is true for the other two.

[BBM]

ok i think I'm feeling this as my current strongest read over snike and rapier.

##Unvote, ##Vote: @WeaponsofMassConstruction

i think his current rapier vote is fine cuz like I said I do see his point but I just don't feel Weapons's other content and something about the way he structured the post (first sheeping sb about rapier, then saying some other stuff about j00 in the middle I don't understand, and then back to rapier) feels not like genuine stream of consciousness. would like answers to the questions I asked in my earlier post whenever you're around

I think rapier's last few posts were bad because he no longer scumreads his current vote but didn't unvote and said he didn't like some stuff by weapons and makaze but didn't really commit to either, and just said stuff like "i'll have to read other people". but for all that I find objectionable about it and previous stuff my gut just isn't here. the tone just feels more right than weapons's.

@Rapier can you explain your makaze read a bit more specifically? i can't understand if you find him scummy or town playing badly

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

alright well cut by marth but i will list out more stream of consciousness thoughts as they come:

- As a gut reads based player I like completely get where Makaze is coming from, so everything he says makes perfect sense (esp the observer thing). Ironically I feel like I suffer from the opposite problem of undersharing vs oversharing. Most or a lot of his posts seem just to be him defending himself for who he is

- I have a number of solid townreads at this point, where it just feels like everything they're saying makes sense and is good contributions and feels like they're trying to solve the game. Will go into various details on some of them below

- I think BBM fits into this category, but I have some reservation about his tone. For some reason, it comes across as idk like, "dark" to me? Not sure why that is, but I do get a strong sense that he is trying to game solve that would be hard to commit to as scum.

- I think Snike overall is good, a lot of town pings. Maybe in particular I see where his meta points on me come from since we played scum together in one of the last games, so he would be more attuned to that, and I think he is treating the point fairly; as scum maybe I think he wouldn't have to feel reserved to use it as a case against me. Other examples I can point out if anyone really wants to know.

- Related to both, also since I'm just posting from memory, the only reservation I'd currently have about Snike is his voting Marth, since I also do think Marth is town, and this is ofc what BBM was on him about. But I forgot about that part of Snike's first post lol and I'm too lazy atp to reread. Whatever this isn't really important

- Honestly I could read Rapier's recent posts before this last page. And also there was one post where he explicitly said he was doubtful on my slot, so lol. @Rapier when you push a case, do you have doubts about your read but push through anyway, or are you pretty sure and don't think about it too much (or a secret third thing)

- I don't feel great about Prims tbh. His posts feel very austere, which pings me as scum meta, along with I guess how I feel like he does this thing where he introduces ambiguity where there doesn't need to be (eg saying i would stream of consciousness as either alignment) (is anyone else sure of this). i also found it odd out of all the people he voted snike to begin with, when i felt like snike/cam/sb (i think) all came into the thread similarly at the time and felt very similar with catch up post vibes. though this may be because i didn't pick up on scum vibes from snike at that point at all

- You know what there's a lot of players and I have thoughts on I think everyone so I'm gonna avoiding bloating this too much and just say if anyone wants to know just ask me directly.