(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins!

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, j00 said:

"Would SFmafia really bus a buddy?" I mean

hehehe

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

What have you got to show for it?

Does anyone feel ingenuine?

Yeah Prims and I'm like trying to work on a case but I am fairly tired. I feel obligated to do a big quote post or whatever but I mean ultimately it just does come down to vibes. Maybe if I were to make a more in-depth point, it is how he's surfacing interesting points and whatnot, but that they feel oddly singled out in some respect. Like, if you are able to come up with these ideas, surely you would notice more things in more parts of posts by more players. So why is this the set of things that you'd comment on. That's what specifically felt odd to me about him picking out Snike among the other check-ins. I suppose this is also because he's been on Snike, and you, and then said a few things about me, where it's like, this feels like a designed push rather than an earnest attempt to solve with these being my townreads.

@j00 you know what fair enough about the lazy. FMPOV given that I have a lot of townreads, Elie makes a lot of sense as scum. Tbh I may be committing to reads a bit more than I actually feel because I feel obligated to. I guess that sort of contradicts my previous post, but at least in this case, I do think you have to commit to reads on some level to move the game forward.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I think I feel better about Rapier now specifically because his read progression on me feels very natural. I'm not scum though don't lynch me!!!

[Makaze]

Just now, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

Yeah Prims and I'm like trying to work on a case but I am fairly tired. I feel obligated to do a big quote post or whatever but I mean ultimately it just does come down to vibes. Maybe if I were to make a more in-depth point, it is how he's surfacing interesting points and whatnot, but that they feel oddly singled out in some respect. Like, if you are able to come up with these ideas, surely you would notice more things in more parts of posts by more players. So why is this the set of things that you'd comment on. That's what specifically felt odd to me about him picking out Snike among the other check-ins. I suppose this is also because he's been on Snike, and you, and then said a few things about me, where it's like, this feels like a designed push rather than an earnest attempt to solve with these being my townreads.

@j00 you know what fair enough about the lazy. FMPOV given that I have a lot of townreads, Elie makes a lot of sense as scum. Tbh I may be committing to reads a bit more than I actually feel because I feel obligated to. I guess that sort of contradicts my previous post, but at least in this case, I do think you have to commit to reads on some level to move the game forward.

I am feeling pretty good about this and don't like Weapons should be eliminated today

Elieson deserves more attention. They've shown up just to say hi a few times but haven't updated their reads

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Sorry Refa, that is the thing with gut reads. I think I have addressed your question in other replies though. Work with me though, are there specific things that have pinged you that you didn't feel were worth posting about in thread?

[Refa]

34 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I am struggling to see Shinori's agenda or plan for winning this game, and nothing they've done that actually improved their ability to read any players. They are commenting on facts that others have uncovered, but not coming to any conclusions. They are not getting closer to solving the game. What is their strategy?

What do you think about Shinori's reads on SB and Via?

If I flip town, how would your read on Bluedoom change? What about him doesn't read as genuine to you?

32 minutes ago, j00 said:

Okay but do you think this is scummy behavior? You think Makaze is scummy, right, but you have no comment on Makaze crumbing lynchproof and IMMEDIATELY calling it BS? What is the scum justification for this?

It doesn't feel like you've been trying to engage with them for a long time either.

I felt better about a few of your posts that was more reactive to what was going on currently (eg. Boron's vote switch to Makaze), but your latest posts are giving me the same vibes/tones as your first posts. 

No, I think it's Makaze behavior. If it was scummy, I would have called it out. I feel like I've adequately engaged them, but I don't think we're getting anywhere with this. I think I better understand where your head is at with your last point now.

20 minutes ago, j00 said:

@WeaponsofMassConstruction I even sort of agree with your latest votes/reads, but from your pov they are very lazy votes (lone inactive guy people said had a bad post + counter wagon) which is why you get flak. I get that all or Rapiers currently ongoing posts are a lot to read and hard to parse (I feel it too), but you mention him and Prims as potential scumspects you want to look more into but hasn't yet elaborated on them. 

In Weapons' defense, I don't think Prims qualifies as a lazy read. I would like him to elaborate on that myself because it feels like it doesn't seem like a read scum would be pushing at this point, but he just hangs onto it as a suspicion which uhhhh...is kinda what I'd expect scum to do (say a slot is bothering them but not really pushing it).

14 minutes ago, j00 said:

"Would SFmafia really bus a buddy?" I mean

The thought process is he wouldn't need to force a read on his scumbuddy because he'd already know that his scumbuddy is scum.

What I want is Rapier reading me/my wagon and Weapons elaborating on his Prims' read and answering my thoughts so I can finalize my opinions on those two slots.

[Refa]

1 minute ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

Sorry Refa, that is the thing with gut reads. I think I have addressed your question in other replies though. Work with me though, are there specific things that have pinged you that you didn't feel were worth posting about in thread?

I don't mind a gut read (this is why I haven't really addressed Percy's read on me), but the fact that you pointed out that it was my scum meta is what's bothering me.

I think I've posted most of it already, but to reiterate, besides my main pushes, I'm bothered by Charlie saying they'd be okay with consolidating on me despite sharing the scumreads, Elie's flaking is bothering me more as time goes on but I've been waiting to see a post from him and there's nothing to push there, it feels like people are just ignoring the Percy slot and I'm not sure what to make of that (like, the slot hasn't bothered me so I guess I can get it but it's just weird man), and I don't really get a lot of the scumreads on Shinori.

[Refa]

*sharing scumreads with me

[Makaze]

Just now, Refa said:

What do you think about Shinori's reads on SB and Via?

If I flip town, how would your read on Bluedoom change? What about him doesn't read as genuine to you?

No, I think it's Makaze behavior. If it was scummy, I would have called it out. I feel like I've adequately engaged them, but I don't think we're getting anywhere with this. I think I better understand where your head is at with your last point now.

In Weapons' defense, I don't think Prims qualifies as a lazy read. I would like him to elaborate on that myself because it feels like it doesn't seem like a read scum would be pushing at this point, but he just hangs onto it as a suspicion which uhhhh...is kinda what I'd expect scum to do (say a slot is bothering them but not really pushing it).

The thought process is he wouldn't need to force a read on his scumbuddy because he'd already know that his scumbuddy is scum.

What I want is Rapier reading me/my wagon and Weapons elaborating on his Prims' read and answering my thoughts so I can finalize my opinions on those two slots.

I haven't read their reads on SB and via, and I think I'm tuning out reads about charlie because I have not slept in almost two days

You flipping town would not change much about Bluedoom, because I think his behavior around you is weird, and that only says something about his alignment. If he flips scum it does not make you Mafia either, but if you flip red it makes the weirdness likely to be buddies, and I'm only reading that in one direction. I might find something from your side if I read carefully but I can't remember in passing.

I cannot place a single thing that feels genuine about him. Every post he makes I think maybe this one will seem different, but it never is (at least not yet)

[Refa]

Maybe I'm being dumb here, I can understand that reasoning. I want to see some last things before I'm comfortable putting down a vote but for now...

##Unvote

[Rapier]

45 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I am struggling to see Shinori's agenda or plan for winning this game, and nothing they've done that actually improved their ability to read any players. They are commenting on facts that others have uncovered, but not coming to any conclusions. They are not getting closer to solving the game. What is their strategy?

Ok, but why aren't you asking him directly instead of commenting on the thread that Shinori is Muskposting and leaving it at that? You could pressure him on those facts he's been commenting and not coming to any conclusions, but instead you just threw it to the air and that's ok? You pursued BBM for far less until you found reasons to back up your feelings.

26 minutes ago, CT075 said:

is "you made me spit water all over my keyboard and now i have to clean it up" a good reason to vote someone? asking for a friend

I hope it's not a laptop, at least

47 minutes ago, BBM said:

i kind of had a similar feeling to sb in that before weapons jumped on, the refa wagon felt pretty pure to me in that everyone on it was neutral at worst. the timing of weapons' switch and the reasons for the refa vote don't really impress me because honestly I don't think refa has any less activity than say, sb or prims or bt or j00. obviously different people have different meta but it's nowhere near low enough to the point i'd say refa is lurking.

THAT BEING SAID fuck it I'm going with this as my #1 now:

##Unvote, ##Vote: @Rapier

your reasoning about me that you've repeated a few times feels makaze-ish in that it's like you wanted me to vote for you? i'm not handwaving reasoning against you and continued to post about you. i went with weapons at the time because the vibes have felt worse with weapons from the beginning (i think you can see me questioning him about stuff from pretty early in the game), so I voted the person who i was feeling bad with for a longer period of time. not to mention, given that fypov you're confirmed town, what's the scum intent in me choosing to vote weapons for flimsy reasons over you? why wouldn't i just vote you if i'm scum and you're town?

I forgot you had been going for Weapons since your first posts, otherwise it wouldn't have seemed so weird that you put reasons for why Weapons and I are scummy, but then decided I was less scummy because you "felt" like I was doing my town meta, while Weapons "felt" scummy. I still find it weird that it took all this time for you to go back to a scumread on me that you had since then. The "handwave" part was that you had all reasons to pursue me further but you decided I felt town and left it at that.

If you believe both Weapons and I are scum, do you think we're acting together? It seems mutually exclusive to believe both of us are scum at this point in the game and from our interactions from the start of the game until now.

32 minutes ago, j00 said:

"Would SFmafia really bus a buddy?" I mean

Reminder that Marth started by avoiding to vote Refa despite him being his top scum read at the time due to not feeling necessary to vote.

I don't remember when Refa's wagon started, so I don't have a clue whether this could've been a scum gamble for a wagon that could lose traction (I recall we were on mid D1) or whether his wagon consolidated and now it's too weird to simply leave it after pushing so much. It's often a horrible strategy to bus on D1 though.

[Makaze]

I do not understand the unvoting, why not park your vote on someone in your poe

you also have to mention like when voting someone for the bot to notice

respect the system

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Rapier said:

Ok, but why aren't you asking him directly instead of commenting on the thread that Shinori is Muskposting and leaving it at that? You could pressure him on those facts he's been commenting and not coming to any conclusions, but instead you just threw it to the air and that's ok? You pursued BBM for far less until you found reasons to back up your feelings.

I hope it's not a laptop, at least

I forgot you had been going for Weapons since your first posts, otherwise it wouldn't have seemed so weird that you put reasons for why Weapons and I are scummy, but then decided I was less scummy because you "felt" like I was doing my town meta, while Weapons "felt" scummy. I still find it weird that it took all this time for you to go back to a scumread on me that you had since then. The "handwave" part was that you had all reasons to pursue me further but you decided I felt town and left it at that.

If you believe both Weapons and I are scum, do you think we're acting together? It seems mutually exclusive to believe both of us are scum at this point in the game and from our interactions from the start of the game until now.

Reminder that Marth started by avoiding to vote Refa despite him being his top scum read at the time due to not feeling necessary to vote.

I don't remember when Refa's wagon started, so I don't have a clue whether this could've been a scum gamble for a wagon that could lose traction (I recall we were on mid D1) or whether his wagon consolidated and now it's too weird to simply leave it after pushing so much. It's often a horrible strategy to bus on D1 though.

I have spent time asking Shinori questions and they have responded with the kinds of things I am talking about every time; I am telling other people I am tired of it out of exasperation but I don't think that asking them directly is going to change anything

[Makaze]

4 minutes ago, Rapier said:

Ok, but why aren't you asking him directly instead of commenting on the thread that Shinori is Muskposting and leaving it at that? You could pressure him on those facts he's been commenting and not coming to any conclusions, but instead you just threw it to the air and that's ok? You pursued BBM for far less until you found reasons to back up your feelings.

I hope it's not a laptop, at least

I forgot you had been going for Weapons since your first posts, otherwise it wouldn't have seemed so weird that you put reasons for why Weapons and I are scummy, but then decided I was less scummy because you "felt" like I was doing my town meta, while Weapons "felt" scummy. I still find it weird that it took all this time for you to go back to a scumread on me that you had since then. The "handwave" part was that you had all reasons to pursue me further but you decided I felt town and left it at that.

If you believe both Weapons and I are scum, do you think we're acting together? It seems mutually exclusive to believe both of us are scum at this point in the game and from our interactions from the start of the game until now.

Reminder that Marth started by avoiding to vote Refa despite him being his top scum read at the time due to not feeling necessary to vote.

I don't remember when Refa's wagon started, so I don't have a clue whether this could've been a scum gamble for a wagon that could lose traction (I recall we were on mid D1) or whether his wagon consolidated and now it's too weird to simply leave it after pushing so much. It's often a horrible strategy to bus on D1 though.

BBM has been forming opinions and is going to be easier to read than Shinori at the rate this is going. That might not make them mafia but it is annoying

[Refa]

5 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I do not understand the unvoting, why not park your vote on someone in your poe

you also have to mention like when voting someone for the bot to notice

respect the system

I know who I want to vote but I need a few more things to pick between the two people.

[Prims]

@Elieson My main impetus for lurking through this portion of the day is that I don't want to generate more pages in a game where there are players struggling to catch up but you've already dipped out of the thread again after making a filler post. Are you still playing? Do you expect to have updated thoughts before the day ends?

[Refa]

@Rapier What are your thoughts on BBM ATM? You've spent a lot of space arguing with him but I'm still not really sure what you think about him. What's stopping you from getting a read on me or people on my wagon? I thought your Weapons vote was fine but I don't get why you're just not paying any attention to me.

[Sunwoo]

I'm here, but I feel like I'm going to pass out so I'm not going to stick around for too long.

Refa: The current votes on Marth are Makaze and Snike, right? I don't have an issue with Snike's vote, I think he explained it well enough. As for Makaze ... I don't even remember why he's voting Marth, so ... He's doesn't even really seem to be pushing the vote either, so ... ;/ PEDIT: Cam's post reminded me that reasoning for the vote was "general weird feeling and could be scum with BBM". Okay yeah, Makaze's vote is pretty bad and I don't think I liked it earlier either.

If there was anyone else who'd been on the Marthwagon in the past you wanted me to discuss, please specify.

Gut/meta read, but I feel like Percivale is townie as of now to me. He would've been busy IRL regardless of alignment, but he's putting in efforts into giving reads despite that. A hypothetical scum!Percivale probably would've used being busy to justify putting off reads, which isn't what he's doing.

Speaking of Cam, I guess his latest post makes me feel a little better about him, but I can't really explain why right now.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Ok, hmm. @Refa would you say what I said about your meta was accurate? Also, can you summarize your read progressions through the game, if you would be so kind

[Makaze]

I went ahead and read the Shinori-pervicale case, and I'm not seeing what Shinori is saying

4 hours ago, Shinori said:

4 hours ago, Percivalé said:

I'm not sure I want to elim weapons anymore However I'd be interested in seeing his alignment flip for the sake of analyzing his wagon because like I said earlier if he's town I think scum was on his case early in the game.

I'm not particularly fine with this train of thought.  I don't like it.  If you think Weapons is town why would you want them flipped any for any reason?  You could probably just break apart the people that voted them with a proper enough ISO and gain traction off of that.  Hell my vote is weak as a lot of people said.

Bolded also implies you were down to elim them previously, but then the second bolded part implies you thought this wagon was scum-fueled or had scum-intent behind it which is kind of backwards.  If you thought they were scum previously, then why would you think scum was pushing their wagon up to be voted?  And if there was scum doing that, then who exactly is the person that did?

This post kind of reads TMI to me, as if they feel they know Weapons flips town and wants to try and set up lynches based on it in the future.

##Vote: @Percivalé

Shinori has assumed that Weapons must be town, so it seems like Shinori is acting with TMI instead of via. This assumes that the goal was attacking via and not convincing everyone that Weapons is town by proxy, which I am thinking might be the actual reason for this reaction.

3 hours ago, Shinori said:

Everyone's iffy on me, it's great.

4 hours ago, Percivalé said:

please shinori can you wait you're being really gung ho and I need a minute

Take your time, I was just posting things as stuff popped in my head.  I thought I was done, I sent the reply, then something else popped into my head so I typed again.  Don't feel rushed you got time.

 

4 hours ago, Percivalé said:

what does TMI mean in this context, too much information? 

Yeah, too much information.  As in it comes off with a vibe that you are accidentally kind of playing in a way that reveals you know how certain things will end up.  Seeing as it SEEMED like you PREVIOUSLY may have scum read weapons, but then hard swapped away from it as other people focused there and weapons gained traction.  You then, as you stated, didn't want to lynch weapons anymore, but were supposedly fine with it so you could analyze the votes on it, especially the earlier ones.

tldr;

"I think weapons is scum" - you
"Oh yeah maybe!" - other people
"Oh shit that worked, uh, nah!"
I don't wanna be early on that wagon, it's town.
But maybe I could push people who did proactively push this wagon...

I really don't feel like this is coming from the mindset of believing that via is town, and it tonally feels like they are treating them as town.

3 hours ago, Shinori said:

3 hours ago, Percivalé said:

with how you've followed up your responses to me this feels like you're confirmation biasing. you latched on really hard and fast based on that one post but I'm wondering what you think about the other stuff I've posted? I know it's not a lot but I'm trying

I don't particularly think I'm going on super hard, I only posted a couple of sentences. Fast being it was split across three different posts in a manner that I was having new information pop into my head as I posted I could kind of understand.

I don't really like that you're pushing it off as me conf-biasing because of an interaction that so far went:
You post
Me question
You respond - not answering my question
Me respond
You respond - saying you will answer my question
Me respond

There isn't a whole lot there and my read on you has really just begun so kind of sliding it under the bed as conf bias is questionable at best.

The overall emotion in the posts read to me as town but I really dislike this train of thought and positioning.  I'll most likely move my vote elsewhere shortly.

@Shinori What kind of reaction were you expecting to these interactions? When did you start to see via as town?

While reading this convo I noticed another habit of yours where you argue "would they really do that as X" to WIFOM your own decision. Why don't you decide to believe one of the options and propose that instead? What are you gaining by talking about both worlds?

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

I went ahead and read the Shinori-pervicale case, and I'm not seeing what Shinori is saying

Shinori has assumed that Weapons must be town, so it seems like Shinori is acting with TMI instead of via. This assumes that the goal was attacking via and not convincing everyone that Weapons is town by proxy, which I am thinking might be the actual reason for this reaction.

I really don't feel like this is coming from the mindset of believing that via is town, and it tonally feels like they are treating them as town.

@Shinori What kind of reaction were you expecting to these interactions? When did you start to see via as town?

While reading this convo I noticed another habit of yours where you argue "would they really do that as X" to WIFOM your own decision. Why don't you decide to believe one of the options and propose that instead? What are you gaining by talking about both worlds?

I am not sure how I butchered this part in the middle, but I meant to say he seems to be treating via as town

[Rapier]

1 minute ago, Refa said:

@Rapier What are your thoughts on BBM ATM? You've spent a lot of space arguing with him but I'm still not really sure what you think about him. What's stopping you from getting a read on me or people on my wagon? I thought your Weapons vote was fine but I don't get why you're just not paying any attention to me.

Don't like how he had two valid reasons for going at two players, having better and more elaborate reasons for going after me, but instead he chose the guy who was being most voted because he concluded he just felt scummier. It's not enough to put BBM on scum territory but it made me see this (and his insistence on Weapons until now) as slightly scummy. Doesn't help that he handwaved me as "feeling as town" whenever I was mentioned without digging deeper into it, and that justification doesn't sit well with me.

Bro I really wish I could read everything the people voting on you and everything you said, but I feel so burned out that I can barely keep up with the thread discussions at this point. I'm far too mentally tired to keep notes on 16 players and 26 pages worth of content. I know this is not a valid excuse but right now I really don't have the energy to go through so much.

[Makaze]

4 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I'm here, but I feel like I'm going to pass out so I'm not going to stick around for too long.

Refa: The current votes on Marth are Makaze and Snike, right? I don't have an issue with Snike's vote, I think he explained it well enough. As for Makaze ... I don't even remember why he's voting Marth, so ... He's doesn't even really seem to be pushing the vote either, so ... ;/ PEDIT: Cam's post reminded me that reasoning for the vote was "general weird feeling and could be scum with BBM". Okay yeah, Makaze's vote is pretty bad and I don't think I liked it earlier either.

If there was anyone else who'd been on the Marthwagon in the past you wanted me to discuss, please specify.

Gut/meta read, but I feel like Percivale is townie as of now to me. He would've been busy IRL regardless of alignment, but he's putting in efforts into giving reads despite that. A hypothetical scum!Percivale probably would've used being busy to justify putting off reads, which isn't what he's doing.

Speaking of Cam, I guess his latest post makes me feel a little better about him, but I can't really explain why right now.

You guys place a lot more emphasis on vote parking than post analysis, and I'm not sure why you think votes mean anything unless they lead to an elim. Votes are performative unless they change something, and I don't see a reason to move off of Bluedoom except to save one of my town reads, who are not at the top at the moment

[BBM]

marth wasn't really an active wagon anymore at the time he voted refa, at least in energy if not in votes

there's also a difference between bussing on like d2 or d3 vs d1. i dont have very many hard mafia rules but one is that it's objectively bad scumplay to get your buddy lynched on d1. any towncred you get is not worth the fact that at least 3-4 other townies will also get it and you will put yourself at a huge numbers and role disadvantage.

anyways there's not a point in arguing it more for now cuz my intent with the question was more to see what scum intent you saw there

@Rapier i don't believe that both you and weapons are scum, no. i don't love that that's where i'm at with my top two scumreads but if I'm good at mafia and am correct then I can update my reads accordingly after a flip. i don't really understand what you're saying about makaze since I think he'd said enough about shinori (even at the time of the post)

[Sunwoo]

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

You guys place a lot more emphasis on vote parking than post analysis, and I'm not sure why you think votes mean anything unless they lead to an elim. Votes are performative unless they change something, and I don't see a reason to move off of Bluedoom except to save one of my town reads, who are not at the top at the moment

What kind of logic even is this