FE9 Tier list v3

[Narga_Rocks]

I understand that. Didn't you say that they unequip their tomes if they use a vulnerary or elixir when silenced? I wonder if that applies if they get healed by a bishop or something while silenced. And now that you mention it, I'm starting to wonder if they tend to start with their siege tomes equipped or not (in the event they pack more than one tome), though I'm assuming they do.

Only like one or two of them have the range tome equipped. You have to run up and make them attack with their 1-2 range weapon. It's simple enough to do, but probably more likely to cause you to spend an extra turn, which is obviously a problem.

As for the rest, many of them start with their 1-2 range weapon. If you can get Rhys to silence them then you can steal without trouble. Alternatively, as you are rushing forward with mounted units + Reyson, you can set up a vigor for Volke as well and he can steal as your mounted units rush in and kill things. It depends on the layout of the map, but if you have to cover big distances then you can do a rescue drop to get Volke in position and then pull a 4 person song.

Oh, and it's the act of doing something while silenced that forces them to unequip, I'd assume. Simply getting healed by another unit wouldn't do it. I'd assume that when it does a proper action (like self-healing), it reassesses whether or not the unit can have a weapon equipped. No idea why, but that likely wouldn't happen when someone else heals a unit. If they don't have a vulnerary/elixir and can't run to someone else with one of those, they can't be forced to unequip their tome when silenced. Even if they have an alternate weapon.

[Anouleth]

But people talk about having Calill range bomb this and range bomb that.

Now, it doesn't really matter how easy it is to kill a mage. What matters is whether keeping it alive (possibly silenced) while Volke runs all the way over to it to steal the ranged tome is going to cost you a turn. Also whether that tome is going to save a turn later on in the event that you can't pull off the steal without losing a turn. It doesn't matter that Titania or Oscar or Jill or Marcia could have killed that mage a turn or two before Volke was going to steal. Why should that matter at all?

Calill isn't very good for range bombing. She 3HKOes Schaeffer, who is the only boss I would recommend siege tomes for, so with or without her the chapter is taking two turns. Except that not using her allows you to save 3 Meteor uses, and get EXP, and get the Bolting in that chapter.

Other uses for siege tomes... getting Snipers off the Ballista in Chapter 24, finishing off Hafedd if he procs Miracle in Chapter 27, and maybe weakening a Dragon in Chapter 28. Really, you're not going to need much beyond a copy each of Blizzard/Bolting/Meteor, and the game practically dumps one of each in your lap. Physic stealing is good, but I have yet to see much in the way of uses for Physic. I doubt you'd even burn through the one you get in the desert, and if you did, Hammerne exists. I'd rather burn a use of Hammerne than have to field Volke, that's for sure.

[Shadow Mir]

Only like one or two of them have the range tome equipped. You have to run up and make them attack with their 1-2 range weapon. It's simple enough to do, but probably more likely to cause you to spend an extra turn, which is obviously a problem.

As for the rest, many of them start with their 1-2 range weapon. If you can get Rhys to silence them then you can steal without trouble. Alternatively, as you are rushing forward with mounted units + Reyson, you can set up a vigor for Volke as well and he can steal as your mounted units rush in and kill things. It depends on the layout of the map, but if you have to cover big distances then you can do a rescue drop to get Volke in position and then pull a 4 person song.

Oh, and it's the act of doing something while silenced that forces them to unequip, I'd assume. Simply getting healed by another unit wouldn't do it. I'd assume that when it does a proper action (like self-healing), it reassesses whether or not the unit can have a weapon equipped. No idea why, but that likely wouldn't happen when someone else heals a unit. If they don't have a vulnerary/elixir and can't run to someone else with one of those, they can't be forced to unequip their tome when silenced. Even if they have an alternate weapon.

Indeed. And if they're mobile, you might as well forget it, since they'll do everything to play keep-away while they harass you with their range tome.

I guess I can't confirm or debunk that myself (my Wii broke, and my younger brother's got the only GameCube that's working), so...

Hmmm... I guess not.

EDIT: Anouleth, are you even sure that getting the Bolting in chapter 22 isn't more trouble than it's worth?

EDIT 2: Narga, it turns out that more mages start with their siege tomes equipped than not. Just checked the Nintendo Power Guide for PoR.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[dondon151]

Calill needs +3 atk on base to 2HKO Schaeffer with Bolting. Just deploy her with Tormod in 2 maps and give her a Spirit Dust.

[Anouleth]

Well, my Tormod could 1-round the Sage with Meteor. In addition, I would have needed 3 uses of Meteor for Schaeffer, but only 2 uses of Bolting. So really, I was getting five uses of Bolting and three uses of Meteor in exchange for two uses of Bolting and two of Meteor.

I don't remember exactly how the map was laid out, but I'm fairly certain the Bolting Sage is easy enough for any Sage to double, since he gets weighed down. From there, it's only important that they can combo with Calill to kill Schaeffer in two rounds of combat. I know that Tormod and Soren can do it, but Ilyana is a little iffier. Even with a level advantage over Tormod, Tormod has B Reyson and C Calill to give him 3 mt.

Oh, and a last issue - nobody has perfect accuracy this way. Tormod and Calill both pulled ~80 hit, even with their supports. In addition, both Tormod and Calill need front row seats to pull this off, so if they fail you have to burn extra uses next turn because the Priests heal Schaeffer and you still can't reach him physically.

@dondon

You might not have Bolting. The chest containing Bolting is in the left room of Chapter 16, so you will likely be able to Seize and finish the map before having an opportunity to get it. Keep in mind that it's also important to get the Full Guard.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Slowking

[Zkirsche]

Bolting is also very good for weakening those pesky dragons.

[Snowy_One]

There has been something that's been bothering me about FE9 tier lists from almost day one that has reached broken record status (as with most of my arguments) as of late. Buuut...

But people talk about having Calill range bomb this and range bomb that.

Now, it doesn't really matter how easy it is to kill a mage. What matters is whether keeping it alive (possibly silenced) while Volke runs all the way over to it to steal the ranged tome is going to cost you a turn. Also whether that tome is going to save a turn later on in the event that you can't pull off the steal without losing a turn. It doesn't matter that Titania or Oscar or Jill or Marcia could have killed that mage a turn or two before Volke was going to steal. Why should that matter at all?

So what? All it takes (in theory) to steal the tome is Volke. A utility unit who's job on the field when deployed involves just this. He's not ever going to be in combat, and would suck anyways unless you, for some reason, gave him lethality (instead of Sol, Aether, or almost any other mastery on any other unit except for Astra, all of which have more use) and it activated. At least in the most distilled form, it's almost impossible for his stealing to cost a turn. I will grant that it isn't this simple and can easily require Reyson using one of his four refreshes or a unit serving as bait while Volke steals but so what? Even if it was your best unit that was lost, is your team/strategy really so fragile as to fall apart if one unit potentially misses a turn?

Even if it did somehow end up costing a turn, so what? I understand that the idea is to get a minimal turncount, but... well... going to the F.A.Q.

a) Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards an efficient playthrough. By efficiency I am mainly referring to turn count and resource expenditure. Normally you’d expect a high tier unit to require fairly basic weapons and items while giving great returns in terms of their combat usefulness. Conversely, a lower ranked unit would probably require a lot of resources while giving less satisfactory combat returns.

Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards ranked runs. Note that only FE4-7 have an in-game ranking system. If we use FE7’s as an example, a unit is considered good if they make meaningful contributions to any of the tactics, survival, funds, experience or combat ranks. These set of criteria have largely been abandoned due to ranks that contradict each other (eg/ tactics and exp rank), as well as various other reasons I will not elaborate about here.

I will grant that, since it's late, I didn't read the topic (and thusly may have missed elaboration), but I would think there to be a difference between efficiency related to turn count and a outright minimal turn count. An outright minimal turn count seems to be a horrid idea for tier standards as it firstly almost guarentee's any half-decent rider or flyer a spot in at least upper-mid, if not high or top, simply because they can fly. To use a SCII example, it's like saying that the Zealot is better than the carrier because a zealot swarm can potentially end the game earlier than getting carriers up. It's not like it's impossible to acknowledge that turn count = efficiency without being all 'minimal turn count at any cost' about it. Sides, if we are all about minimal turn count, doesn't Tauro suck no matter what? He needs to drop down to half-health to be of practical combat use and has general-level movement. Even having a flier move him means that the flier may need to waste a turn picking him up, a turn dropping him off, and is weighed down by him during rescue potentially costing doubles/kills? I would think that would be a insta-closer in near any minimum turn count argument (which I disagree with, but still...) or at the least semi-hypocritical when you complain about the potential (not confirmed, as it isn't impossible to get into a situation where a unit may switch to a non-siege option for a reason) loss of a turn for getting a siege tome, but then suggest carrying Tauro around?

Finally; SO WHAT? Unless I am missing something here, this is simply a option available to a unit. It's not like it's required for them to be good/useful. Just simply an option that has the potential to cost a turn, but offers payback in the form of a siege tome.

Speaking of which, I thought you had bolting when you fought Ena, though I am probably mistaken about that. Ena is a tough enough boss for potential use of the tome to be useful.

[Anouleth]

So what? All it takes (in theory) to steal the tome is Volke. A utility unit who's job on the field when deployed involves just this. He's not ever going to be in combat, and would suck anyways unless you, for some reason, gave him lethality (instead of Sol, Aether, or almost any other mastery on any other unit except for Astra, all of which have more use) and it activated. At least in the most distilled form, it's almost impossible for his stealing to cost a turn. I will grant that it isn't this simple and can easily require Reyson using one of his four refreshes or a unit serving as bait while Volke steals but so what? Even if it was your best unit that was lost, is your team/strategy really so fragile as to fall apart if one unit potentially misses a turn?

No, but let's not get carried away here. It has to be acknowledged that there is a cost associated in getting Volke into position to steal a tome, since he's generally weak and has 7 move etc. , and I don't think that a siege tome is worth the hassle when you could be putting a more awesome 7 move unit on the frontlines instead, like Boyd or Ike. I think I've stated before that between the Meteor, Bolting and Blizzard that are practically dumped in your lap in chapters 20, 22 and 23 respectively, you can probably cover all your siege tome needs until the end of the game provding you have an adequately trained Sage that can use them properly.

Another issue is that many enemies start off with their siege tome equipped, so we need to manipulate them into switching weapon first. Now, this could very well cost us a turn since it's a bit more involved than Volke just going up to them.

If you know of any siege tomes that are easily stealable without costing a turn, point them out.

I will grant that, since it's late, I didn't read the topic (and thusly may have missed elaboration), but I would think there to be a difference between efficiency related to turn count and a outright minimal turn count. An outright minimal turn count seems to be a horrid idea for tier standards as it firstly almost guarentee's any half-decent rider or flyer a spot in at least upper-mid, if not high or top, simply because they can fly. To use a SCII example, it's like saying that the Zealot is better than the carrier because a zealot swarm can potentially end the game earlier than getting carriers up. It's not like it's impossible to acknowledge that turn count = efficiency without being all 'minimal turn count at any cost' about it. Sides, if we are all about minimal turn count, doesn't Tauro suck no matter what? He needs to drop down to half-health to be of practical combat use and has general-level movement. Even having a flier move him means that the flier may need to waste a turn picking him up, a turn dropping him off, and is weighed down by him during rescue potentially costing doubles/kills? I would think that would be a insta-closer in near any minimum turn count argument (which I disagree with, but still...) or at the least semi-hypocritical when you complain about the potential (not confirmed, as it isn't impossible to get into a situation where a unit may switch to a non-siege option for a reason) loss of a turn for getting a siege tome, but then suggest carrying Tauro around?

Zealots are better than Carriers. If a Protoss player was forced to play without Zealots, it is a far bigger loss than being forced to play without Carriers. You might as well suggest that just because the High Templar can't attack, it must be the worst unit, when it has utility outside of attacking.

I digress, though. It is perfectly natural for even half-decent riders and fliers to rise on the tier list. More movement is useful, undeniably, and it's the most important stat in the entire game. As if that wasn't enough, Paladins generally also have good stats, and access to Axes, the most powerful weapon type.

Tauroneo does suck. He has awful movement and terrible speed. This is why his utility is limited to Chapter 25 since we can't use Paladins to reach the top layer, and fliers don't really have the durability to survive up there. Saviour cancels out his effect on whoever's carrying him up there, and since the bottom of the map is pretty light on enemies, units generally have nothing better to do than rescue-drop him.

Finally; SO WHAT? Unless I am missing something here, this is simply a option available to a unit. It's not like it's required for them to be good/useful. Just simply an option that has the potential to cost a turn, but offers payback in the form of a siege tome.

I don't think the dividends are worth the investment. You have 15 uses that are given to you, that is enough for the rest of the game. Two Meteors for the Bolting Sage in Chapter 22, two Boltings for Schaeffer, two Meteors and two Boltings for Ballista riders in C23, two Blizzards for a Ballista rider in C24, one Blizzard for Gromell, one Meteor for Hafedd, and the rest can be used in Chapter 28 on the laguz.

Speaking of which, I thought you had bolting when you fought Ena, though I am probably mistaken about that. Ena is a tough enough boss for potential use of the tome to be useful.

Bolting can be gotten from a chest in Chapter 16, but the chest is in the left room, so you will probably complete the map before getting it. I don't think Ena is all that tough anyway, as long as you bring enough people to the throne room and recruit Tauroneo.

[Zkirsche]

A level 20/6 Soren with Bolting 2RKO's Ena, so no Tauroneo necessary. And it won't take less than a turn to clear the main room, so Sothe can run over to recruit 10 men and then get Bolting while the main army cleans up.

[Anouleth]

A level 20/6 Soren with Bolting 2RKO's Ena, so no Tauroneo necessary. And it won't take less than a turn to clear the main room, so Sothe can run over to recruit 10 men and then get Bolting while the main army cleans up.

I beat Chapter 16 in 6 turns, and I baaaaaarely got the Dracoshield and the Full Guard (both more valuable treasures) in that time. I find it hard to believe that you can have Sothe reach the Bolting. What's more, the Bolting is immediately adjacent to a more valuable treasure, the Physic. Even with Chest Keys on a Paladin, it seems unlikely that we will reach the Bolting.

And I have no idea what makes you think that Soren can 2RKO Ena with Bolting. He has 47ATK to Ena's 52HP and 25RES. Ena also regenerates 10HP per turn. What's more, Ena has a 14% chance of activating Miracle and Soren only has 71 hit against her, so he has a significant chance of missing in the ~4 rounds we need to kill her. We also need to get Ike to the throne, so Ena is really the least of our worries.

[Zkirsche]

I admit I forgot to transform her (although she only has 24 res, mind, thanks to the demi band), although with reyson we can leave her in single digit HP, which is good no matter how you cut it.

I beat Chapter 16 in 6 turns, and I baaaaaarely got the Dracoshield and the Full Guard (both more valuable treasures) in that time. I find it hard to believe that you can have Sothe reach the Bolting. What's more, the Bolting is immediately adjacent to a more valuable treasure, the Physic.

@Physic: We can have Volke do it.

@Draco: You're kidding, right? Both seraph robes and draco shields are not very sought after resources. In my PT, which most certainly does not use optimal unit choices everywhere, I was so spoilt for choice for my defensive stat boosters that I actually gave Marcia both a seraph robe AND a dracoshield just for nought else to give it to.

And it appears that we once again come to what is meant by efficient. If we waste a turn getting the bolting and physic, it will most likely save turns later on (such as against ena) and provide better chances of death for our units (as they can be healed wherever and not just by our healers).

Edited August 21, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Anouleth]

I admit I forgot to transform her (although she only has 24 res, mind, thanks to the demi band), although with reyson we can leave her in single digit HP, which is good no matter how you cut it.

Actually, the Demi Band rounds up, and I found that Reyson was extremely busy in this map.

I don't even get the advantage to having Soren use Bolting. There is no point in killing Ena before Ike is in range to Seize, and Ena herself is not too difficult - base level Tanith, for example, 4HKOes and doubles Ena with the Laguz Lance, and Marcia can probably do the same. Tauroneo w/ Resolve active 2HKOes even with just a Laguzslayer.

@Physic: We can have Volke do it.

I needed to rescue-drop like a maniac just to get Sothe to the Full Guard. Now you expect me to get him to the Full Guard and then carry him off just to get Bolting, AND get Volke there, all in 6 turns?

Man, if I was going to waste a turn getting Physic or Bolting, I still wouldn't drag both Sothe and Volke into this chapter. Better just to use Chest Keys.

@Draco: You're kidding, right? Both seraph robes and draco shields are not very sought after resources. In my PT, which most certainly does not use optimal unit choices everywhere, I was so spoilt for choice for my defensive stat boosters that I actually gave Marcia both a seraph robe AND a dracoshield just for nought else to give it to.

Your PT got as far as Chapter 15. We are talking about Chapter 16 and onwards, so your playthrough is completely irrelevant to the discussion. I personally found that durability was quite important in some lategame chapters.

And if there's a resource that is not sought after, it's goddamn Bolting. Aside from Chapter 21 Ena, where it's a good backup if she procs Miracle and can be used to take out Generals in the hands of Ilyana, Calill or Tormod (Soren doesn't double w/Bolting, he needs to use Meteor), it's useless since we have plenty of siege tome uses.

And it appears that we once again come to what is meant by efficient. If we waste a turn getting the bolting and physic, it will most likely save turns later on (such as against ena) and provide better chances of death for our units (as they can be healed wherever and not just by our healers).

I doubt it. We already have the Physic from the desert, and 15 uses should be more than sufficient until Chapter 27 (given that I was fine with 0 uses).

[Shadow Mir]

A level 20/6 Soren with Bolting 2RKO's Ena, so no Tauroneo necessary. And it won't take less than a turn to clear the main room, so Sothe can run over to recruit 10 men and then get Bolting while the main army cleans up.

I personally am in favor of ignoring the chapter 16 Bolting because I think it costs more turns to get than it shaves later. And the Full Guard is more important anyhow.

[Snowy_One]

No, but let's not get carried away here. It has to be acknowledged that there is a cost associated in getting Volke into position to steal a tome, since he's generally weak and has 7 move etc.

So? That's equal to the average combat unit and we will never be putting him in combat. At best, he's hiding just out of reach of the enemies or the front line has advanced past him (also, pure water can help with damage in the event of being hit with the siege tome and costs only 900 gold for a bottle).

and I don't think that a siege tome is worth the hassle when you could be putting a more awesome 7 move unit on the frontlines instead, like Boyd or Ike.

Firstly, deploying Volke does not mean we are not wasting a combat slot. It seems that after chapter 9, on average a chapter will have at least 12 deployment slots. I would think that means that you would need to be on the larger end of team size to find a place where this is a issue.

Secondly, though I know it isn't quite what you mean, but... there is value in the near-inherent randomness that plagues every chapter. For example, a person with a siege tome can rush up and use it if there are no enemies in range, or to finish off a important enemy who is just out of range, or to blast a target that would be highly useful to kill whom is out of range. Though bosses are the main enemy type cared about here, possibly having a mage blast someone with a 1-2 ranged weapon in a group of otherwise 1-rangers, allowing for the team to be on 1-range weapons safely and not miss potentially killing. There ARE situations where it will be useful that are not related to bosses, and it's up to the player to decide the value of their use in these situations and if it is worth stealing or not. Stealing a siege tome is not a near-requirement for any sage at last check, so this is debating a optional play at the moment.

Another issue is that many enemies start off with their siege tome equipped, so we need to manipulate them into switching weapon first. Now, this could very well cost us a turn since it's a bit more involved than Volke just going up to them.

I won't deny that it is a problem, and a sever one to stealing any tome. However, firstly, things happen on the battlefield. I wouldn't be shocked to find that one of your units ended just inside blasting range and the mage attacked with a tome, only to survive for one reason or another and allowing for Volke to steal it. It may have been used twice or thrice, but that would be one situation where it didn't cost a turn (at least, if it did cost a turn, it wasn't because of the tome-stealing attempt).

Zealots are better than Carriers. If a Protoss player was forced to play without Zealots, it is a far bigger loss than being forced to play without Carriers. You might as well suggest that just because the High Templar can't attack, it must be the worst unit, when it has utility outside of attacking.

Both Zealots and Carriers have their place on the battlefield and situations where they can and can't be good. For Zealots to be truly useful, we need a lot of them or have an army full of multiple unit types that Zealots can fit in well with. Carrier are probably the most powerful single unit outside of a Mothership and great for multiple things, but are slow and don't come in as very useful until the endgame.

I digress, though. It is perfectly natural for even half-decent riders and fliers to rise on the tier list. More movement is useful, undeniably, and it's the most important stat in the entire game. As if that wasn't enough, Paladins generally also have good stats, and access to Axes, the most powerful weapon type.

I know. More movement is indeed useful, but it is the reason why they are more useful that upsets me. They get positioned high often because their movement is needed to get the absolute minimal turn count. A tier might as well just list the unit movements and which units are better within that movement range. For example, in this list...

Top: 3 mounted units, 2 fliers, and 1 foot. The foot is ranked high because he is potentially the best character in the game stat-wise and if he had mounted movement, he would be the top.

High: 2 mounted, 1 flier, 1 high movement Laguz, Reyson, and 1 foot whom is also a typically powerful character.

From upper-mid down, the only mounted units are Geoffery, who joins late, and Mist whom is a primary utility unit, and the only fliers are two Laguz with fairly bad stats, A melee with laughable speed, and a healer who joins too late to be of huge use. Lastly, the highest of the 'low move' is mid-tier (though, granted, this is because of low speed more than anything else). The main reason why seems to be that the mounted and flying units are capable of reaching the goal faster and it takes a stat beast on the foot movements to compete with them because of this.

Tauroneo does suck. He has awful movement and terrible speed. This is why his utility is limited to Chapter 25 since we can't use Paladins to reach the top layer, and fliers don't really have the durability to survive up there. Saviour cancels out his effect on whoever's carrying him up there, and since the bottom of the map is pretty light on enemies, units generally have nothing better to do than rescue-drop him.

Only Tibarn starts with savior and savior costs 10 skillpoints to use. Firstly, I must question why a flier is using savior in the first place. It's only use is when rescuing and there simply are more useful skills out there. I will acknowledge though that they are still the best choice if you have the skill. Secondly, if we're flying someone up, why Tauroneo? Because of Resolve? Why not Boyd with some Elixirs? Or Nephenee with the KW equipped for extra defense (and some elixirs). After all, we have the flier, at least the unit who was rescued, and possibly others. I mean, we got one flier up there, why not more? Get Marcia, Tanath, and Jill to drop off up there and you can have six units up-top. Boyd, Ike, and one more in addition to the three ladies. So, of all units, why TAURONEO?!

Bolting can be gotten from a chest in Chapter 16, but the chest is in the left room, so you will probably complete the map before getting it. I don't think Ena is all that tough anyway, as long as you bring enough people to the throne room and recruit Tauroneo.

She packs a wallop and is rather tough. Being able to soften her up beforehand is very useful.

[Anouleth]

So? That's equal to the average combat unit and we will never be putting him in combat. At best, he's hiding just out of reach of the enemies or the front line has advanced past him (also, pure water can help with damage in the event of being hit with the siege tome and costs only 900 gold for a bottle).

Except that the front line has 9 movement and is generally getting support from Reyson/Mordecai/Muarim to move even further and takes the best deployment slots at the start of the map and can ignore terrain.

Firstly, deploying Volke does not mean we are not wasting a combat slot. It seems that after chapter 9, on average a chapter will have at least 12 deployment slots. I would think that means that you would need to be on the larger end of team size to find a place where this is a issue.

It's more in the sense that if we use Reyson and mounted units to move Volke into a good position, we could have done it with someone better.

Secondly, though I know it isn't quite what you mean, but... there is value in the near-inherent randomness that plagues every chapter. For example, a person with a siege tome can rush up and use it if there are no enemies in range, or to finish off a important enemy who is just out of range, or to blast a target that would be highly useful to kill whom is out of range. Though bosses are the main enemy type cared about here, possibly having a mage blast someone with a 1-2 ranged weapon in a group of otherwise 1-rangers, allowing for the team to be on 1-range weapons safely and not miss potentially killing. There ARE situations where it will be useful that are not related to bosses, and it's up to the player to decide the value of their use in these situations and if it is worth stealing or not. Stealing a siege tome is not a near-requirement for any sage at last check, so this is debating a optional play at the moment.

Yes, and I think that 15 uses is more than enough to cover the entire game whether you are rushing with Paladins and fliers or advancing at a slower pace, so you never need to deal with the hassle of stealing tomes.

I won't deny that it is a problem, and a sever one to stealing any tome. However, firstly, things happen on the battlefield. I wouldn't be shocked to find that one of your units ended just inside blasting range and the mage attacked with a tome, only to survive for one reason or another and allowing for Volke to steal it. It may have been used twice or thrice, but that would be one situation where it didn't cost a turn (at least, if it did cost a turn, it wasn't because of the tome-stealing attempt).

That would be a spectacular coincidence, for Volke to just end up near a Sage that unequipped his tome and survived.

Both Zealots and Carriers have their place on the battlefield and situations where they can and can't be good. For Zealots to be truly useful, we need a lot of them or have an army full of multiple unit types that Zealots can fit in well with. Carrier are probably the most powerful single unit outside of a Mothership and great for multiple things, but are slow and don't come in as very useful until the endgame.

Yes, they both have their place. However, Zealots have a bigger place.

I know. More movement is indeed useful, but it is the reason why they are more useful that upsets me. They get positioned high often because their movement is needed to get the absolute minimal turn count. A tier might as well just list the unit movements and which units are better within that movement range. For example, in this list...

Top: 3 mounted units, 2 fliers, and 1 foot. The foot is ranked high because he is potentially the best character in the game stat-wise and if he had mounted movement, he would be the top.

High: 2 mounted, 1 flier, 1 high movement Laguz, Reyson, and 1 foot whom is also a typically powerful character.

From upper-mid down, the only mounted units are Geoffery, who joins late, and Mist whom is a primary utility unit, and the only fliers are two Laguz with fairly bad stats, A melee with laughable speed, and a healer who joins too late to be of huge use. Lastly, the highest of the 'low move' is mid-tier (though, granted, this is because of low speed more than anything else). The main reason why seems to be that the mounted and flying units are capable of reaching the goal faster and it takes a stat beast on the foot movements to compete with them because of this.

This is a natural consequence. It is very easy for units to ORKO most enemies in this game, and durability is generally pretty good if you're moving 7 spaces per turn. So when the majority of units in the game perform pretty similiar in combat, it is natural that the ones who have applications outside of combat should rise on the tier list. For example, Nephenee and Marcia have similiar combat, but Marcia has flight.

And to be honest, if you're below Nephenee, generally you don't have great combat anyway. Generals have speed issues. Laguz just have shitty stats everywhere and transformation issues. Snipers have shitty stats as well. Swordmasters have iffy strength. Sages have movement and durability issues. Most of these people have combat that's not even similiar to the people in High and Top, it's clearly inferior.

Only Tibarn starts with savior and savior costs 10 skillpoints to use. Firstly, I must question why a flier is using savior in the first place. It's only use is when rescuing and there simply are more useful skills out there. I will acknowledge though that they are still the best choice if you have the skill. Secondly, if we're flying someone up, why Tauroneo? Because of Resolve? Why not Boyd with some Elixirs? Or Nephenee with the KW equipped for extra defense (and some elixirs). After all, we have the flier, at least the unit who was rescued, and possibly others. I mean, we got one flier up there, why not more? Get Marcia, Tanath, and Jill to drop off up there and you can have six units up-top. Boyd, Ike, and one more in addition to the three ladies. So, of all units, why TAURONEO?!

I'm sorry? Saviour is acquired in Chapter 24, so we can use it in Chapter 25. 10 skillpoints is not something serious. Marcia, for example, has 20 capacity and has no native skills. The same applies to Jill. So even with Saviour, we can still give them another skill. The only skills they cannot take are Nihil and Stun, which aren't very useful anyway (Nihil is good for a few bosses). And we are always going to run out of skills before we run out of people to give them to. Strictly speaking, you don't even need Saviour if you use Reyson.

Rescuing is very important, I think. It was relevant for me in a lot of chapters such as chapter 20, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, and 28. I'm actually annoyed that you don't get Saviour sooner.

How are we dropping three people up there? We only have one Saviour and one Full Guard and one Reyson, and ideally you should be using all three on one flier.

Boyd does not work on the top layer. He has 53HP/15DEF/9RES. I don't think this is durable enough to survive on the top layer. The Tiger and the Bishop alone deal 36 damage to him, and there's a Ballista, a ton of Swordmasters, and a pretty nasty boss up there as well. It's funny that Resolved Tauroneo is actually more durable than this, since he has 24HP/26DEF/15RES with the Knight Ward. I don't think Nephenee is durable enough either.

And really, Boyd is a Top Tier unit. If Tauroneo can beat him in this one chapter, isn't that a big positive for him?

She packs a wallop and is rather tough. Being able to soften her up beforehand is very useful.

I didn't need to.

[Zkirsche]

Actually, the Demi Band rounds up, and I found that Reyson was extremely busy in this map.

Indeed it does. A +5 res bonus/2 but rounded up = 3. 21 + 3 = 24.

Nothing's more important than Ko'ing the enemy on the seize square. Period.

I don't even get the advantage to having Soren use Bolting. There is no point in killing Ena before Ike is in range to Seize, and Ena herself is not too difficult - base level Tanith, for example, 4HKOes and doubles Ena with the Laguz Lance, and Marcia can probably do the same. Tauroneo w/ Resolve active 2HKOes even with just a Laguzslayer.

How does Taur get in resolve range in the first place, what with Ena dealing a mere 11 damage to him. Oh and Tanith gets 2RKO'ed by Ena, so if she's taken much damage, she's at risk to dying.

Soren's method is the safest and quickest way of severely weaking Ena.

I needed to rescue-drop like a maniac just to get Sothe to the Full Guard. Now you expect me to get him to the Full Guard and then carry him off just to get Bolting, AND get Volke there, all in 6 turns?

Try 7. Physic + Bolting is worth it, and you can leave the draco so that should make it easier. Heck, Muarim w/demi band can go get it quite quickly.

Man, if I was going to waste a turn getting Physic or Bolting, I still wouldn't drag both Sothe and Volke into this chapter. Better just to use Chest Keys.

Whatever way you do it, you can still get them.

Your PT got as far as Chapter 15. We are talking about Chapter 16 and onwards, so your playthrough is completely irrelevant to the discussion. I personally found that durability was quite important in some lategame chapters.

No it's not, I looked a defensive stats and everyone's was at par, even during the earlier harder stages. PEMN to your playthrough mr. random mode.

And if there's a resource that is not sought after, it's goddamn Bolting. Aside from Chapter 21 Ena, where it's a good backup if she procs Miracle and can be used to take out Generals in the hands of Ilyana, Calill or Tormod (Soren doesn't double w/Bolting, he needs to use Meteor), it's useless since we have plenty of siege tome uses.

When was I arguing this in favour of Soren, I am saying that seige tomes are relatively useful.

I doubt it. We already have the Physic from the desert, and 15 uses should be more than sufficient until Chapter 27 (given that I was fine with 0 uses).

If you are fine with 0 uses, then the draco shield isn't necessary.

[Anouleth]

Indeed it does. A +5 res bonus/2 but rounded up = 3. 21 + 3 = 24.

Wars of Dragons lists it as 27 (-2):

http://fireemblemwod.net/fe9/guia/cap21.htm

Serenes Forest lists it as 27, doesn't mention the Demi Band so I took two away myself:

http://serenesforest.net/fe9/boss_stat_h.htm

Nothing's more important than Ko'ing the enemy on the seize square. Period.

Moving Ike to the seize square is equally important, and there are about a trillion Knights in the throne room, as well as a Sleep staff Bishop. If he hits Ike, that's another two or three turns onto your time.

How does Taur get in resolve range in the first place, what with Ena dealing a mere 11 damage to him. Oh and Tanith gets 2RKO'ed by Ena, so if she's taken much damage, she's at risk to dying.

Ena also doubles him, and there are Mages in the throne room that can damage him. Personally, I weakened him before recruitment to get him into Resolve mode.

Soren's method is the safest and quickest way of severely weaking Ena.

Aside from the accuracy issues, and taking about 3 turns to kill her, and diverting attention from killing stuff in the throne room, and as long as we don't bother to actually get Ike in range to seize, then yes.

Which reminds me - I forgot that Ena carries an Elixir, so even if you Vigor Soren so he can attack her twice, she can still heal back up to full.

Try 7. Physic + Bolting is worth it, and you can leave the draco so that should make it easier. Heck, Muarim w/demi band can go get it quite quickly.

Mordecai should ideally have the Demi Band because he has Smite. Muarim in general is pretty limited because he doesn't have Canto.

In addition, I still don't accept that it would have saved me a single turn later on in the game.

Whatever way you do it, you can still get them.

Since I actually played the chapter in question and you didn't, I'm willing to take my word over yours.

No it's not, I looked a defensive stats and everyone's was at par, even during the earlier harder stages. PEMN to your playthrough mr. random mode.

Oh, how dare I play the game on random mode, the mode assumed for this tier list, and then ditch characters that end up RNG-screwed and focus on characters that got RNG-blessed. It has to be stated, though, that even with my RNG-blessed characters, I still would have appreciated a Dracoshield for Tormod or Tanith, who has issues in some places.

When was I arguing this in favour of Soren, I am saying that seige tomes are relatively useful.

They are. I am no longer questioning their usefulness, having used them myself to some effect, I just don't think they are worth going out of your way to get.

If you are fine with 0 uses, then the draco shield isn't necessary.

There were many times when Physic would have been useless. Mist was often left behind herself, out of Physic range, in chapters such as Chapter 21, Chapter 23 and Chapter 25. These were also chapters where additional durability is very useful.

[Shadow Mir]

They are. I am no longer questioning their usefulness, having used them myself to some effect, I just don't think they are worth going out of your way to get.

I agree with this. And it's for this reason why I advocated forgetting about the chapter 22 Bolting - while I can use Meteor to attack the mage with it, that means being on the ass end of the magic triangle.

[Anouleth]

I agree with this. And it's for this reason why I advocated forgetting about the chapter 22 Bolting - while I can use Meteor to attack the mage with it, that means being on the ass end of the magic triangle.

I think that one is worth getting. You can use it to kill Schaeffer, for a start, and have three uses left over for other purposes. I don't think that the magic triangle even applies since counterattacks are impossible, and even if they are, the Sage is so slow you should still be able to have good accuracy.

[Shadow Mir]

I think that one is worth getting. You can use it to kill Schaeffer, for a start, and have three uses left over for other purposes. I don't think that the magic triangle even applies since counterattacks are impossible, and even if they are, the Sage is so slow you should still be able to have good accuracy.

How durable is that Sage anyhow? If I need 3 uses of Meteor to kill him, then I say "Screw it".

[Zkirsche]

Wars of Dragons lists it as 27 (-2):

http://fireemblemwod.net/fe9/guia/cap21.htm

Serenes Forest lists it as 27, doesn't mention the Demi Band so I took two away myself:

http://serenesforest.net/fe9/boss_stat_h.htm

Well, my bad, I guess. Ena seems to change stats from chapter to chapter, and I just assumed that her bases were her stats in teh chapter. Myabe not, it seems.

Although, this is just pedantism anyway, so w/e.

Moving Ike to the seize square is equally important, and there are about a trillion Knights in the throne room, as well as a Sleep staff Bishop. If he hits Ike, that's another two or three turns onto your time.

But to do that you need to kill Ena, and there's nothing you can do about the sleep stave sans having Soren attack him or something, so I don't see the issue here. Or restore.

Ena also doubles him, and there are Mages in the throne room that can damage him. Personally, I weakened him before recruitment to get him into Resolve mode.

Well, doesn't that take time to do? I'd much rather just hammer through Taur and rush on. heck, if we're using pallys, the throne room might be cleared before Taur even gets in tehre. There aren't that many enemies in there and the majority of your units should be going in there anyway.

Aside from the accuracy issues, and taking about 3 turns to kill her, and diverting attention from killing stuff in the throne room, and as long as we don't bother to actually get Ike in range to seize, then yes.

Accuracy? 73 displayed is ~85% true. Very trustworthy IMO. And these 3 turns occur before anyone even enters the throne room. The turns needed do not matter. Like what? Just restore Ike or use Calill to target the bishop, it's no biggie. The last point doesn't even matter, as we can just delay soren's assult if you're really that insulted if Ike isn't around the throne roon by teh time Ena's dead.

Which reminds me - I forgot that Ena carries an Elixir, so even if you Vigor Soren so he can attack her twice, she can still heal back up to full.

Attack her once, which would not encourage her to elixer, then vigor and attack twice. Easily avoidable stuff, which just needs the right strategy.

Mordecai should ideally have the Demi Band because he has Smite. Muarim in general is pretty limited because he doesn't have Canto.

Muarim is like a second Titania. Just without the canto, which doesn't mean much as he doesn't mind the attacks.

In addition, I still don't accept that it would have saved me a single turn later on in the game.

And physic.

Since I actually played the chapter in question and you didn't, I'm willing to take my word over yours.

That was in response to a statement which said that you'd rather use chest keys over Sothe/Volke, I'm saying that's fine. So either backtrack or drop it.

Oh, how dare I play the game on random mode, the mode assumed for this tier list, and then ditch characters that end up RNG-screwed and focus on characters that got RNG-blessed. It has to be stated, though, that even with my RNG-blessed characters, I still would have appreciated a Dracoshield for Tormod or Tanith, who has issues in some places.

Yes, PEMN is a fairly basic debating principle so saying that you found units struggling durably wise in a game where it is possible to be RNG screwed, calls for it. Sorry dude, but present some stats before makign claims like that.

Yep, then use my Soren's seraph robe or my Marcia's whatever, as she probably didn't need both (if any). There we go, now we have your team covered.

They are. I am no longer questioning their usefulness, having used them myself to some effect, I just don't think they are worth going out of your way to get.

Because of a simple turn? We're talking about potentially reduced turns later on for it, as well as increased survival rates.

There were many times when Physic would have been useless. Mist was often left behind herself, out of Physic range, in chapters such as Chapter 21, Chapter 23 and Chapter 25. These were also chapters where additional durability is very useful.

Rhys + Soren won't have such physic range issues.

[Snowy_One]

Except that the front line has 9 movement and is generally getting support from Reyson/Mordecai/Muarim to move even further and takes the best deployment slots at the start of the map and can ignore terrain.

Okay. And... So what? He's a support unit. He doesn't need (nor should he ever be) on the front line in combat, so how far ahead the front line is doesn't matter all that much to him or the concept of him stealing (especially since he won't ever be outrunning Reyson, whom a lot of people consider essentual). Besides, wouldn't Boyd and Ike have the exact same problem as Volke staying up on the front line? What exactly is the problem you're trying to highlight with this retort? I missing it.

It's more in the sense that if we use Reyson and mounted units to move Volke into a good position, we could have done it with someone better.

Where did I mention using mounted units to move Volke? I don't recall that ever. As for Reyson, when shifted he has FOUR REFRESHES! I would say that it will be a rare day when all four are used at once, especially when his movement is similar to Volke's? Plus, the 'we could have done it with better' argument is very ham-fisted towards giving the four best deployed units all four refreshes. It's also very limited (what if there was no one better? or the person saw more value in the tome than in the other person?) and inflexable (so should we say Jill always gets a refresh, even if the strategy suggests having her fly over a treeline to bypass a load of swamps and Volke never get it just because 'it could have been used better'?)

Yes, and I think that 15 uses is more than enough to cover the entire game whether you are rushing with Paladins and fliers or advancing at a slower pace, so you never need to deal with the hassle of stealing tomes.

What you think is irrelevant to how another person chooses to value the tomes and their uses as well as their opportunities of use.

That would be a spectacular coincidence, for Volke to just end up near a Sage that unequipped his tome and survived.

So you are saying it's impossible for a unit like, say (spins name wheel) Oscar to wind up within striking range (for the sage) of the sage with a steel/silver axe equipped and for the sage to rush up and try to attack him (no counter) and then move Volke in on the turn after that? I would think that you would have to be playing at smash-levels to not at least have the noticeable chance of it happening (moreso if you, you know, aren't being a idiot and put the unit in range on purpose to bait. Just because they are baiting the sage doesn't mean that they are somehow useless after all).

This is a natural consequence. It is very easy for units to ORKO most enemies in this game, and durability is generally pretty good if you're moving 7 spaces per turn.

Durability and movement have no relationship. Besides, post promo, almost every unit has seven movement.

So when the majority of units in the game perform pretty similiar in combat, it is natural that the ones who have applications outside of combat should rise on the tier list. For example, Nephenee and Marcia have similiar combat, but Marcia has flight.

And a weakness to archers. Meanwhile Nephenee has wrath, making her superior in combat.

And to be honest, if you're below Nephenee, generally you don't have great combat anyway. Generals have speed issues. Laguz just have shitty stats everywhere and transformation issues. Snipers have shitty stats as well. Swordmasters have iffy strength. Sages have movement and durability issues. Most of these people have combat that's not even similiar to the people in High and Top, it's clearly inferior.

I won't deny that Generals have speed issues and whatnot, but in most of the debates I've historically seen, the problem brought up the most isn't their speed (though this certainly is a issue) but rather their movement. I won't deny it's aweful. I personally don't use them because of it (I don't need a rear guard) and whatnot. At the same time, I cry a bit inside when someone says 'General unit sucks because of their low move which makes them horrible' because it means the person is a strategic dummy and doesn't see how to use them. Granted, the FE games themselves are largely to blame for the lack of defend-type chapters, but still...

I hate Laguz as well for their transform. Specifically, I hate Muarim and Mordi whom certain people seem to fangirl-gush over because 'OMG MOBILE TANK! What? They have offensive problems? SCREW YOU THEY HAVE HIGH MOVEMENT! MUARIM FOR TOP TIER!' *this summerizes most of my Gamefaqs debates concerning Muarim sadly enough). Swordmasters have good enough strength and some potent combo's to work with their critical. Sages... are a casualty of the minimum turn count system as the rapid 'win a turn less at all costs' system leaves them horribly exposed and debaters can't seem to grasp that it's not impossible for all the enemies to be simply DEAD at the end of the player phase as well.

Also, you have a baffling description of 'combat'. While Generals and Laguz do indeed have problems, none of the other units do. Weakling Mia, for example, has more STR endgame than overhyped Titania before she even touches her supports. Not factoring weapon differences, she even ties top-tiered Oscar in attack (he beats her in durability and wins damage due to axes > swords, but still...). In fact, of the four swordmasters, the only one lacking attack is Lucia, and thanks to their critical, they actually have the highest pre-defense damage output when adjusted for critical. Sages attack RES and provide valuable support as well with their advantages as well as having effectiveness against quite a bit. In fact, the crowning 'flaw' of mid tier is more of 'didn't have enough movement to keep with the front lines' than anything else.

I'm sorry? Saviour is acquired in Chapter 24, so we can use it in Chapter 25. 10 skillpoints is not something serious. Marcia, for example, has 20 capacity and has no native skills. The same applies to Jill.

So they are just going to go until chapter 24 lacking a skill just so that we can drop Tauro uptop?

Rescuing is very important, I think. It was relevant for me in a lot of chapters such as chapter 20, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, and 28. I'm actually annoyed that you don't get Saviour sooner.

I didn't need to.

How are we dropping three people up there? We only have one Saviour and one Full Guard and one Reyson, and ideally you should be using all three on one flier.

We have three fliers at least. Jill, Marcia, and Tanith. I forget if Haar is around as well, and if so we have four. We also have Laguz gems, and Reyson can chant four people when transformed. Strictly speaking, we won't even need savior with him around after all.

Boyd does not work on the top layer. He has 53HP/15DEF/9RES. I don't think this is durable enough to survive on the top layer. The Tiger and the Bishop alone deal 36 damage to him, and there's a Ballista, a ton of Swordmasters, and a pretty nasty boss up there as well. It's funny that Resolved Tauroneo is actually more durable than this, since he has 24HP/26DEF/15RES with the Knight Ward.

Didn't someone else already point out a problem with this? Anyways, we can have at least three units up there, not counting the fliers. Not Boyd alone.

I don't think Nephenee is durable enough either.

At level 20/14, Nephenee will have 40 HP, 22 DEF, and 13 RES. She's frailer... BUT... She has wrath/vantage which will (more or less) remove half her attackers beforehand. I'm not positive, but she may even be able to take a 1-2 ranged weapon and still manage it (at least with a critical). Not to mention her avoid/speed blows Tauro out of the water even if he maxes level (Tauro has 21 SPD resolved, Neph 26 base. Offense wise, he deals 2 more damage than her, but she will double more reliably and vantage-crit. I would say Neph >>>> Tauro.

And really, Boyd is a Top Tier unit. If Tauroneo can beat him in this one chapter, isn't that a big positive for him?

And Rhys outright trounces Mist in every way possible in this chapter. Shouldn't that be a big positive for him?

[Shadow Mir]

Rhys + Soren won't have such physic range issues.

But instead, they'd have move issues.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Zkirsche]

But instead, they'd have move issues.

But this is physic, so that doesn't matter as much (Like, their extra mag means they have a greater range compared to Mist or something), although I highly doubt that mist couldn't physic them anyway (like, a 20 range physic or something.) That's the entire width of the map, or close to it, so something must be up.

At the very least they can be rescue dropped. Also, terrain, though that doesn't play that big a part, I suppose.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Anouleth]

But to do that you need to kill Ena, and there's nothing you can do about the sleep stave sans having Soren attack him or something, so I don't see the issue here. Or restore.

Soren won't have the staff rank to use restore yet. In addition, the sleep staff bishop can easily be dealt with using a flier + Reyson, if you weren't insistent on putting Reyson near Soren. Reyson also helps move Ike forward.

Well, doesn't that take time to do? I'd much rather just hammer through Taur and rush on. heck, if we're using pallys, the throne room might be cleared before Taur even gets in tehre. There aren't that many enemies in there and the majority of your units should be going in there anyway.

Because Tauroneo is an enemy, he will attack your units on his own accord. I would also be very impressed to see you get paladins to the throne room. My own strategy was to use Marcia and Tanith to drop Ike/Tormod into the throne room, since the Paladins need to go around the sewers and take a long time.

Accuracy? 73 displayed is ~85% true. Very trustworthy IMO. And these 3 turns occur before anyone even enters the throne room. The turns needed do not matter. Like what? Just restore Ike or use Calill to target the bishop, it's no biggie. The last point doesn't even matter, as we can just delay soren's assult if you're really that insulted if Ike isn't around the throne roon by teh time Ena's dead.

If Soren needs to hit three times with 85% chance, that's a 61% chance, which is not reliable at all. Even less, if we consider the possibility of Miracle going off. I suppose Soren might proc Adept, but he's still looking at a double digit chance of failure.

Calill cannot kill the Bishop, his resistance is too high. 30HP/21RES, so she needs 36ATK, which is pretty much unreachable without massive amounts of BEXP.

Muarim is like a second Titania. Just without the canto, which doesn't mean much as he doesn't mind the attacks.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. What does canto and minding being attacked have to do with each other? The idea of canto is that you can kill an enemy or open a door and then move forward for next turn.

And physic.

I was talking about Bolting and Physic. Neither would have saved me a turn, especially if I had remembered to get the Chapter 15 Physic.

That was in response to a statement which said that you'd rather use chest keys over Sothe/Volke, I'm saying that's fine. So either backtrack or drop it.

And I say you cannot do it in 6 turns. Well, maybe with some absurd 100% optimal team entirely of Paladins.

Yes, PEMN is a fairly basic debating principle so saying that you found units struggling durably wise in a game where it is possible to be RNG screwed, calls for it. Sorry dude, but present some stats before makign claims like that.

I didn't feel it necessary to prove that Tanith and Tormod have less than optimal durability. It seems rather obvious. But if you want some stats, just throw Boyd up against some enemies and you'll see that he wants a Dracoshield. Possibly two.

Yep, then use my Soren's seraph robe or my Marcia's whatever, as she probably didn't need both (if any). There we go, now we have your team covered.

I could say PEMN, but given that you didn't even play very far in the game, you're not even on the level of bringing up PE in tier list debates, since you don't actually have any PE. Maybe we need a new acronym, like Theorytarding Means Nothing.

Because of a simple turn? We're talking about potentially reduced turns later on for it, as well as increased survival rates.

Well, potentially it could also sit in the convoy and do nothing.

Rhys + Soren won't have such physic range issues.

I did not get Tormod to C Rank staves, I doubt that Soren would. Rhys, on the other hand, has admirable physic range, but it doesn't quite reach the top level of Chapter 25 either, and his movement issues mean that any benefits from Physic range in Chapter 21 are cancelled out by being an awful Rescue user. He's also pretty sluggish in Chapter 23. He can't even rescue-drop Ike forward, like Mist can. So even if a Rhys-using team could use Physic better, it would be disadvantaged in other ways.

Okay. And... So what? He's a support unit. He doesn't need (nor should he ever be) on the front line in combat, so how far ahead the front line is doesn't matter all that much to him or the concept of him stealing (especially since he won't ever be outrunning Reyson, whom a lot of people consider essentual). Besides, wouldn't Boyd and Ike have the exact same problem as Volke staying up on the front line? What exactly is the problem you're trying to highlight with this retort? I missing it.

Where did I mention using mounted units to move Volke? I don't recall that ever. As for Reyson, when shifted he has FOUR REFRESHES! I would say that it will be a rare day when all four are used at once, especially when his movement is similar to Volke's? Plus, the 'we could have done it with better' argument is very ham-fisted towards giving the four best deployed units all four refreshes. It's also very limited (what if there was no one better? or the person saw more value in the tome than in the other person?) and inflexable (so should we say Jill always gets a refresh, even if the strategy suggests having her fly over a treeline to bypass a load of swamps and Volke never get it just because 'it could have been used better'?)

What you think is irrelevant to how another person chooses to value the tomes and their uses as well as their opportunities of use.

So you are saying it's impossible for a unit like, say (spins name wheel) Oscar to wind up within striking range (for the sage) of the sage with a steel/silver axe equipped and for the sage to rush up and try to attack him (no counter) and then move Volke in on the turn after that? I would think that you would have to be playing at smash-levels to not at least have the noticeable chance of it happening (moreso if you, you know, aren't being a idiot and put the unit in range on purpose to bait. Just because they are baiting the sage doesn't mean that they are somehow useless after all).

I'm not going to respond to you on this issue until you play the game and tell me exactly which siege tomes are practical to steal and which are not.

Durability and movement have no relationship. Besides, post promo, almost every unit has seven movement.

If a unit moves 9 spaces, they will encounter more enemies than a unit that moves 7 spaces. In addition, the slower you go, the more time you have to use healing and you can select for matchups that are in your favour (for example, having units fight with WTA). The point is that durability isn't really a big issue unless you're as bad as a Sage or something. Even Mia, the girl that everyone loves to hate for bad durability, can avoid a lot of attacks through Vantage.

And a weakness to archers. Meanwhile Nephenee has wrath, making her superior in combat.

Generic archers generally have awful stats and rarely carry Silver Bows, so they're not that threatening. I'm not really a big fan of Wrath since it's unreliable and requires Nephenee to be at low health.

Besides, my point was that their combat was similiar, not identical.

I won't deny that Generals have speed issues and whatnot, but in most of the debates I've historically seen, the problem brought up the most isn't their speed (though this certainly is a issue) but rather their movement. I won't deny it's aweful. I personally don't use them because of it (I don't need a rear guard) and whatnot. At the same time, I cry a bit inside when someone says 'General unit sucks because of their low move which makes them horrible' because it means the person is a strategic dummy and doesn't see how to use them. Granted, the FE games themselves are largely to blame for the lack of defend-type chapters, but still...

I think that speed is a bigger issue. I mean, if they had 25speed, then I would go out of my way to use Paladins to drop them on the frontlines, but as they are, they're not worth the bother.

I hate Laguz as well for their transform. Specifically, I hate Muarim and Mordi whom certain people seem to fangirl-gush over because 'OMG MOBILE TANK! What? They have offensive problems? SCREW YOU THEY HAVE HIGH MOVEMENT! MUARIM FOR TOP TIER!' *this summerizes most of my Gamefaqs debates concerning Muarim sadly enough). Swordmasters have good enough strength and some potent combo's to work with their critical. Sages... are a casualty of the minimum turn count system as the rapid 'win a turn less at all costs' system leaves them horribly exposed and debaters can't seem to grasp that it's not impossible for all the enemies to be simply DEAD at the end of the player phase as well.

Muarim is decent enough, since he has good enough stats and you can ignore his transformation with the demi band. But every other laguz in the game has really, really bad combat, generally in every area. Swordmasters have decent enough strength, but even at best, they match Paladins in raw offense. Sages just don't have durability. Too bad.

Also, you have a baffling description of 'combat'. While Generals and Laguz do indeed have problems, none of the other units do. Weakling Mia, for example, has more STR endgame than overhyped Titania before she even touches her supports. Not factoring weapon differences, she even ties top-tiered Oscar in attack (he beats her in durability and wins damage due to axes > swords, but still...). In fact, of the four swordmasters, the only one lacking attack is Lucia, and thanks to their critical, they actually have the highest pre-defense damage output when adjusted for critical. Sages attack RES and provide valuable support as well with their advantages as well as having effectiveness against quite a bit. In fact, the crowning 'flaw' of mid tier is more of 'didn't have enough movement to keep with the front lines' than anything else.

Mia is unlikely to reach max level. Titania is. At 20/15, Mia has a point less strength than Titania, and Titania has weapon typing that give her +3ATK against most enemies, and +5 attack against the lance wielders. What's more, Titania has access to better effective weapons. That +3 attack gap is multiplied by two when it's on an anti-laguz weapon, such as the Laguz Axe. So even at the end of the game, the statistically weakest Paladin is still kicking the ass of the second best Swordmaster, before we even bring up movement and durability.

Sages do have great offense, and it's good to be strong against a variety of enemy types such as Laguz, Generals, Wyverns etc. However, they do nothing that couldn't be done more durably by a Paladin. I never ran out of Brave weapons or anti-laguz weapons or Silver forges in my playthrough. What's more, they all have speed issues, not just Ilyana, and frequently fail to double the fastest enemies such as Swordmasters or Feral Laguz.

So they are just going to go until chapter 24 lacking a skill just so that we can drop Tauro uptop?

They will probably lack a skill anyway. Most skills are almost completely useless or only useful in conjunction with other stuff. Like I said earlier, you will run out of skills before you run out of units to put them on. Plus, they can still take a 10 capacity skill and Saviour on top of that, so they won't completely lack skills.

I didn't need to.

And I presume that you also took much longer on those chapters by not taking full advantage of rescue-dropping. While you might not have needed to drop in order to physically finish the chapter, you shot yourself in the foot by failing to do so.

We have three fliers at least. Jill, Marcia, and Tanith. I forget if Haar is around as well, and if so we have four. We also have Laguz gems, and Reyson can chant four people when transformed. Strictly speaking, we won't even need savior with him around after all.

Haar is around, but I generally don't recruit him. Janaff can rescue a few characters, but... he's Janaff.

In addition, laguz stones are a limited resource and I prefer to save them for larger chapters where the movement is more important. Plus, we can't leave fliers or transformed Reyson in range of the Ballista at the top of the map.

Didn't someone else already point out a problem with this? Anyways, we can have at least three units up there, not counting the fliers. Not Boyd alone.

No, it is possible to get Tauroneo to level 16 by this chapter, I tested it and it was pretty easy. In addition, even if there are three units, they may still go for Boyd.

At level 20/14, Nephenee will have 40 HP, 22 DEF, and 13 RES. She's frailer... BUT... She has wrath/vantage which will (more or less) remove half her attackers beforehand. I'm not positive, but she may even be able to take a 1-2 ranged weapon and still manage it (at least with a critical). Not to mention her avoid/speed blows Tauro out of the water even if he maxes level (Tauro has 21 SPD resolved, Neph 26 base. Offense wise, he deals 2 more damage than her, but she will double more reliably and vantage-crit. I would say Neph >>>> Tauro.

Now that is an unreasonable level. I struggled to get Boyd even to level 10 in time for that chapter, no way is Nephenee doing it. She's not even very durable, since any two of Purge + Gromell + Tiger will KO her in wrath mode and she won't be able to crit them before they attack, since she doesn't have enough strength to 3HKO even with a Javelin forge. That's not even considering all the other enemies at the top.

And Rhys outright trounces Mist in every way possible in this chapter. Shouldn't that be a big positive for him?

Yeah, he is better than Mist in this case. A +2 movement advantage is pretty good stuff.

But this is physic, so that doesn't matter as much (Like, their extra mag means they have a greater range compared to Mist or something), although I highly doubt that mist couldn't physic them anyway (like, a 20 range physic or something.) That's the entire width of the map, or close to it, so something must be up.

At the very least they can be rescue dropped. Also, terrain, though that doesn't play that big a part, I suppose.

Physic's range in Mag/2, so 20 range is impossible.

One of Mist's flaws is not being able to be rescue dropped, but it's only an issue in Chapter 21.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Anouleth